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On May 28 2011 17:35 CakeOrI)eath wrote:Normally you see these threads when + Show Spoiler +a player wins an MSL/OSL, not when they just got knocked out of one
+ Show Spoiler +That's actually why I chose to write this article now. I'd considered this, based on some of the arguments I outlined, to be the case since the NATE MSL final but repeated discussions on the topic on forum threads sparked off more and more topics worth addressing. I don't like it when people write articles exaggerating the greatness of players so I considered that if Jaedong had won this MSL people would have been more likely to be swayed purely by him being on top, being as it is easy to get caught up in the excitement and short term swings of the game.
Instead I thought by writing this article now, at one of Jaedong's lower points relative to his past successes, that people might be able to look at the topic with a clearer head in assessing the historical impact of his career.
I've noticed a few pieces of rhetoric keep being repeated, albeit in different words, in this thread so I'll formulate some of them into one liners and address them one at a time:
-Bonjwa is a Korean term and only the Koreans know what it means, how to define it and who deserves to be a bonjwa
There is no term I am aware of in the West which is as useful for the specific purpose bonjwa is used for by Western BW fans. Koreans can use the term bonjwa however they want, and indeed consider anyone they want a bonjwa or not. What's significant to me is that in the Western mind it seems to have taken on a life of its own and I think it has become useful for describing players who were truly great and dominated in a transcendant way, as separated from players who were good or even really good at specific points.
Since the term works better than any other I can think of in English I think it's worth adapting for this purpose, and I outlined my definitions of it at length. Even the words one would use to describe a player without the word bonjwa are quite vague and subjective when you get do to it: good, great, best and top can all stretch quite far depending on how frequently you use them or they can contract to a minute degree depending on how strict you are with them. The actual term someone uses is less important than that they define what they mean by it in my opinion. That way we can all at least build our own dictionary to understand that person's points.
-Only Koreans should use the word bonjwa. This topic has been raised many times before, why bring it up again?
In my opinion the people who come into bonjwa threads and scream about how none of us should even be allowed to use the word because we're not Korean are at least a little misguided, and possibly more obsessed than the people using the word bonjwa. Imagine if a bunch of who weren't Irish began a James Joyce reading thread and were giving our own interpretations of sections of Ulysses and someone came in and repeatedly made comments like "Stop talking about this, you're not Irish", "God, can't you guys get over it and move on to some new books?" or "These discussions have been had before, your interpretations are incorrect because Joyce himself said [X] and [Y]". A preposterous notion right?
What makes forums, especially those populated by knowledage people like TeamLiquid, a great resource is that we discuss topics with a wide variety of people and in doing so we might get some new or interesting perspectives on an issue that we hadn't previously encountered or considered. I had hoped that people would engage in genuine discussion about the topic by reading the article and then addressing their opinions based on the criteria I laid out there.
Address the topics/criteria not the title
So if someone thinks Jaedong is not a bonjwa then reference some of my specific criteria and list why he is not on those grounds yet another bonjwa is on those grounds. Sadly there have been a few people who came into this thread and simply immediately responded purely to the title, which is equivalent to someone making a thread titled "Hydra is god" and having other people come in and post things like "There is but one god: Allah", "Don't blaspheme against the Creator Jesus" or "Only the bible should be allowed to define who god is". Not only is it counter to the purpose of a forum discussion but most of the responses don't even match up with the topic which is actually being discussed.
Some of the basic objections brought up so far are things I directly and explicitly address in the article. Also some people aren't playing the game in terms of helping us all have an enjoyable discussion. It's not productive when debating a topic to simply make assertions and then never reference or back them up with any kind of points, facts or evidence. If you think Michael Jordan is the best basketball player ever it's not enough to say "MJ is the best ever" because you've killed the conversation. If instead you say "MJ is the best ever because [X], [Y], [Z] and possibly [A]" then someone has grounds on which to address your points, whether they agree or not. In my opinion in a discussion it's less about having the "right" answer or the "truth" than it having an interesting perspective or some points against which people can pick out responses to further the discussion.
As far as this discussion never needing to be had again. For people who truly feel that way it seems a little pointless to open the thread. Everything can and should be discussed, especially everything interesting. People might say "You can't compare Kobe Bryant to Michael Jordan" and as a turn of phrase to mean that Kobe Bryant is not even close that statement might have minor merit. As an actual literal statement though it's somewhat silly. You can compare anyone to anyone else. In comparing you might even find out new perspectives on Michael Jordan's career you hadn't considered before.
It's also the case that there have been lots and lots of discussions about bonjwas on TeamLiquid, and I've read close to all of them, but one of the weak points of such a huge community is that a lot of the different perspectives and lines of logic get broken up and lost amongst a sea of comments. I thought it would be useful to put together every, in my opinion, legitmate line of argumentation and significant fact for why Jaedong should/could be considered a bonjwa into one article. That way people have something substantial to respond to and they can go into as fine and precise detail as is possible, due to everything being outlined and defined.
He's not a bonjwa. He is a bonjwa. You're not a bonjwa. I'm a bonjwa. bonjwas, bonjwas everywhere and not a definition in sight.
The most fascinating point about the bonjwa debate in my opinion, as I would hope people have noticed from the responses in this thread alone, is the sociological impact of them. There are only two things we can say with absolute certainty about the term bonjwa:
1) Everyone thinks they know who is and isn't a bonjwa
2) The sum total of everyone's separate definitions of what a bonjwa is include mutually exclusive clauses and sometimes even don't apply to all five (or four) of the accepted bonjwas.
One thing I've noticed which seems to be a major blind spot for some people is bending the term depending on which specific player they are addressing. On one hand they'll say something like "Jaedong isn't a bonjwa because [X], sAviOr was [X]". Then you'll point out that BoxeR or NaDa didn't meet the requirement of [X] either. Basically what people have done is taken the hardest and best accomplishments of all the past bonjwas and then, despite the fact none of them share absolutely all of those requirements, say that any additional bonjwas must at least match those extreme requirements.
So we have people saying you have to dominate Proleague and win the MVP, win for three years, have no rival who beats you, change BW fundamentally on a metagame and tactical level and so on.
I've still yet to see anyone address some of the specific bonjwa by bonjwa arguments I laid out on the terms of those specific sub-criteria:
* Why is sAviOr failing to even qualify for three OSLs in a row still considered domination while if Jaedong wins golds but also silvers in a reasonably comparable timeframe it is discounted since by losing he wasn't "on top"?
* Why is iloveoov dominating by reaching five finals and winning all of them better than Jaedong reaching nine, winning the same amount and then losing four? Basically iloveoov has five 1st and then at least four 3rd places or below as his top 9 placings. Jaedong has five 1sts and four 2nds.
* Since BoxeR meets almost none of the bonjwa criteria of the others, dominating for all of three seasons in terms of golds, why is he allowed to be considered an honorary bonjwa but Jaedong is not?
* If you have to radically alter the metagame and make genius changes to your race then why is NaDa a bonjwa on that criteria bearing in mind he basically has the most in common with the modern era of players by taking what the great players before them did and basically applying superior mechanics and repetition to "perfecting" those strategies?
Those are vastly simplified versions of some of the points I make in the argument so anyone who wants to engage with them would be advised to go and read them in the article itself where more time and thought has been put into how they are laid out.
The main point I'm getting at is that many people cherry pick the hardest criteria that applies to one bonjwa, without considering if it applies to the other 3/4, and then move onto the next bonjwa and repeat until they have a near impossible set of requirements which all of the bonjwas didn't accomplish individually.
You can't have two bonjwas at the same time.
People are again playing with applying definitions as and when they please depending on if they say someone is a bonjwa or someone isn't. Look at the time spans of the first three bonjwas while they were actually "in" their bonjwahood. They all come very close to overlapping.
Flash's bonjwahood, by those who consider him a bonjwa, is cited as being from the EVER OSL 2009 to the Korean Air S2 OSL, six finals in total. Yet that is really more of a comfortable way of including his first gold of that roughly year long run. Being more strict you'd have to look at his first two league runs of that period (EVER OSL and NATE MSL) and say that Flash was still below Jaedong at that point since he beat Jaedong in a Bo3 but then lost to him in a Bo5 and had a losing Bo5 record against Jaedong in individual leagues, where it truly matters.
So either Flash's bonjwa run is allowed to overlap into Jaedong's time at the top, to include an extra gold and silver, or his run should only be counted as four finals and three golds from that period. Likewise if you can't count Jaedong's whole career, from EVER 2007 OSL onwards, then take your pick of Jaedong's period from the combined OSL + MSL path I simplified as follows:
G-G-S-0-G-G-G-S-S+S
So you can take the six season span from Ever OSL 2007 to NATE MSL as Jaedong's bonjwa run and you get five golds and a silver in six seasons, as well as three golds in a row.
Or you can go the other way and take the period from the Battoo OSL 2009 to the Korean Air OSL S2 and count his run as three golds and three silvers in five seasons, as well as three golds in a row and at least one medal five seasons in a row.
You can't apply bonjwa retroactively, Jaedong has missed his opportunity.
All of the bonjwas were named retroactively. Almost as soon as sAviOr became the first active bonjwa he was dethroned and spiraled out of bonjwahood. BoxeR, NaDa and iloveoov were all named bonjwas retroactively.
Again: for the sake of the discussion rather than tell someone they are wrong or that you're right how about coming up with an interesting perspective or addressing the specific points they raised in support of their case.
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On May 28 2011 23:46 aupstar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 23:28 Legatus Lanius wrote:On May 28 2011 23:09 aupstar wrote:On May 28 2011 23:03 Legatus Lanius wrote:
there was a pretty big discussion about that game and i think the general consensus was that jaedong had it regardless I don't know how you reached the conclusion that there was a general consensus (probably a general consensus amongst jaedong fans) because the game itself played out similarly to one of their previous games where jaedong was way ahead economically but flash came in with with a few dropships and won the game. Flash even says afterwards that he thought he could win the game...and it's not like they went straight to the next game after the power outage occurred. It took like an hour for the next game to begin and Flash was visibly shaken by it. I think if Flash thinks he could've won the game then there was a big possibility that he could have. alot of posters analysed it from the vods. kwark comes to mind, but there were others. flash's economy was dwindling and jaedong had a pretty good grip on 4 gas. you could probably search for the thread will all the discussion, but i can assure you that it was objective and not jaedong fans ganging up on flash lol flash can say what he likes, but he was in seriousssss trouble by the time the power died in that game Remember I didn't say he would win..I said there was a chance he could win...Honestly speaking the game should have been discounted and they should just have continued onto the next maps. Furthermore the games are strongly influenced by the mentality of the player. Flash felt that the judgement was incorrect and lost all his will to play after that hour long battle with the referees. I don't think Jaedong had the same feeling as he could rest assured that he got the win regardless and needed to win just one more game to lift the osl trophy. And saying a lot of posters said such and such doesn't really compare to how a pro gamer at the heights of bw is able to interpret the flow of the game. Economy isn't everything and flash has immaculate m&m control..He was doing great with his small rag tag teams during the game.
Don't be ridiculous. All Kespa refs unanimously agreed Jaedong had the game won enough to award him to win. You're gonna tell me you know more about the game than them?
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If you have to radically alter the metagame and make genius changes to your race then why is NaDa a bonjwa on that criteria bearing in mind he basically has the most in common with the modern era of players by taking what the great players before them did and basically applying superior mechanics and repetition to "perfecting" those strategies?
You are absolutely, unbelievably wrong. Nada was making earth shattering changes before people even knew who Iloveoov was, and that insofar means you're wrong about the point of changing the game as a whole.
You can't have two bonjwas at the same time.
People are again playing with applying definitions as and when they please depending on if they say someone is a bonjwa or someone isn't. Look at the time spans of the first three bonjwas while they were actually "in" their bonjwahood. They all come very close to overlapping.
Flash's bonjwahood, by those who consider him a bonjwa, is cited as being from the EVER OSL 2009 to the Korean Air S2 OSL, six finals in total. Yet that is really more of a comfortable way of including his first gold of that roughly year long run. Being more strict you'd have to look at his first two league runs of that period (EVER OSL and NATE MSL) and say that Flash was still below Jaedong at that point since he beat Jaedong in a Bo3 but then lost to him in a Bo5 and had a losing Bo5 record against Jaedong in individual leagues, where it truly matters.
So either Flash's bonjwa run is allowed to overlap into Jaedong's time at the top, to include an extra gold and silver, or his run should only be counted as four finals and three golds from that period. Likewise if you can't count Jaedong's whole career, from EVER 2007 OSL onwards, then take your pick of Jaedong's period from the combined OSL + MSL path I simplified as follows:
This entire bit is completely wrong. Flash's insane run was charted back to when he won the final Gom tournament -- while this does not count as an official title it is when people started noticing that Flash was not only a better player than before, but mystifyingly better and doing things that were shaping the metagame. Jaedong was losing all sorts of games in this extended time period you mention, going so far as to lose in QUALIFIERS to a protoss (Tyson), a Bo3 to free, a 3-0 sweep by forgg, getting knocked out of the msl by hwasin and Flash, etc etc -- he was not unstoppable in any of these timespans you like to mention and in no way was comparable to flash in 2010, because no one ever has been comparable to Flash in 2010 and that's what it takes to be a bonjwa nowadays, not just a collection of disjointed, if impressive, accomplishments.
The height of Jaedong's play was the season he made it to both finals, as previously he could only make it to 1 final and the Ro8 at best, and at this height of his career Flash shut him down. This is the biggest deal behind why Jaedong never established himself as truly dominant without question.
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Jaedong is not a bonjwa. I am really surprised by this topics specially when he just lost the semi' finals. He cant be bonjwa because of flash, really simple.. Maybe when he wins dual gold, he may reapply for this status..
And koreans give out bonjwa status anyway.. or god status  )
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And frankly, that you question Boxer's dominance is such an insult to just how incredible he was and just how narrow-mindedly you view this whole discussion, as you boil it down completely to OSLs and MSLs when things were so different in the past. You have even less knowledge and understanding of previous eras than I do (I am no scholar), which is downright embarrassing for someone trying to argue so fervently for a term USED for those eras.
I wish Mortality would just pop in to school you on some of this oldschool stuff you're completely dismissing because he's way better at it than I am, but dear lord, Boxer wasn't dominant enough and Nada didn't change the game enough? Reaaaaalllllly?
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Jaedong reigned king of starcraft for two or three years. Nobody really called him that for some reason, I have no idea. This is before Flash's domination, and once flash started dominating, they thought, oh Jaedong was so good, but flash is even better just by specific Jaedong Vs Flash matches.
Jaedong defeated many foes, but flash just defeated Jaedong and then some scraps to claim that title.
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Oh for the love of god. Now the word "Metagame" has joined this thread. Let's announce a Metagame-Bonjwa, yeah, that sounds like an idea that could kill even more of my brain cells. And if all of that wasn't enough, we are talking about game 3 of Poweroutage-MSL again. Lord help us!
I have to stop opening these kind of threads, my blood pressure is to high for this kind of discussion. Sorry for not contributing anything meaningful, but I just cannot believe this thread.
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i think the word bonjwa isnt as important as it was, its a subjective word,so its hard to settle exactly who was and who will. what is curious is that this isnt the time to publish this, when he recently lost to zero. we all know jaedong dominated, but savior domination was i believe more visible to the eye, because zerg was the weak race, he managed to revive that race and make it a playable one. flash became bonjwa not because he defeated jaedong , because he managed to dominate , and take golds, in a record time,how many time does a progammer took to get 5 golds, flash i believe is the progammer in achieving that in less time, but i believe no one can really measure "Bonjwaness" of a player, because everyone will be settled to his own opinion regarding who dominated more, and just like in math, there are too many variables involved that is better to leave that way.
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By all statistical accounts, yes, Jaedong is a Bonjwa. However, it's not just numbers. It's in the air. It's something that the spectator FEELS when he watches that players play.
Jaedong has always exerted dominance when he plays. He's rips command of the game from his opponents and batters them to death in a ceaseless attack designed to become the starcraft equivalent of Tennis "court presence". That being said. Jaedong TAKES command. He assumes control through sheer force of will. An impressive feat to be sure.
Unfortunately, the other Bonjwas never forced control. They didn't take it. They walked into the booth, and it was there. Laid before their feet on a silver platter dominance simply existed for them.
I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but to me that's what qualifies the difference between Jaedong and Bonjwa status.
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For those of you that completely ignore statistics, I suppose you can choose to overlook this. However, according to Liquipedia: "Bonjwa" 본좌 in Korean was originally the self-raising first-person pronoun, used to distinguish oneself. So I'm gonna take a look at how the bonjwas distinguished themselves above others in the OSL and MSL, considering only final appearances.
This is a list of the OSL and MSL finals winners and second place finishers in order of the last day of the tournament. This is the order that you saw champions crowned. Sometimes the difference is a week or two, sometimes several months. Sometimes the MSL drops off the face of the earth and you have several OSL's in a row, but that doesn't matter. For individual league dominance, these are your champions and runner ups. If you watched the finals as they aired, this is how it happened in order.
Unspoiler for the full list:
+ Show Spoiler +
Tip: Unspoiler the above, Hit Ctrl+F, type your players name of choice, and click highlight. That should help you see periods of dominance. You can also see Bisu, rA, and July's mini-dominance.
 BoxeR's best:
4 Tournaments
3-1 Finals
Other Multiple Finals (OMF) = Yellow: 0-2
NaDa's best:
5 Tournaments
4-0 finals
OMF = Reach: 1-1, Chojja: 0-2
iloveoov's best:
7 Tournaments
4-0 finals
OMF = Nal_rA: 1-1
 sAviOr's best:
10 Tournaments
4-2 finals
OMF = Anytime: 1-1, Chojja: 1-1, NaDa: 1-1
Jaedong's best:
10 Tournaments
4-1 finals
OMF = Stork: 1-2, Fantasy: 0-2, JangBi: 0-2
Flash's best:
6 Tournaments
4-2 Finals
OMF = Jaedong: 1-3
I'll let these statistics mostly speak for themselves. The bonjwa's are winning 3 or 4 tournaments in a span where no other wins more than one. Usually no one else even makes more than 2 finals, except for Stork during JD's run or JD during Flash's run. As much as I love Stork, obviously he is no contender for bonjwa. Remember: JD was dominating before Flash became god, and that is where the bonjwa talk should be. I believe that it is very similar to Savior's. Something to consider.
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if JD can be considered bonjwa then bisu is definitely bonjwa
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On May 29 2011 01:11 TwoToneTerran wrote:
And frankly, that you question Boxer's dominance is such an insult to just how incredible he was and just how narrow-mindedly you view this whole discussion, as you boil it down completely to OSLs and MSLs when things were so different in the past. You have even less knowledge and understanding of previous eras than I do (I am no scholar), which is downright embarrassing for someone trying to argue so fervently for a term USED for those eras.
Are ad hominem attacks, hysterics and vague allusions considered valid avenues of debate now?
Nada was making earth shattering changes before people even knew who Iloveoov was
Perhaps you could list some of them instead of simply making assertions which you don't back up and nobody can respond to, except with assertions of their own.
Jaedong was losing all sorts of games in this extended time period you mention, going so far as to lose in QUALIFIERS to a protoss (Tyson)
sAviOr failed to win the OSL qualifiers three straight years during his peak.
a Bo3 to free
Flash lost a Bo5 to Jaedong during the time period you cite as his bonjwa run.
a 3-0 sweep by forgg
sAviOr managed to lose to ChoJJa during his peak and get swept by Bisu in humiliating fashion.
getting knocked out of the msl by hwasin and Flash
sAviOr never even got into the OSLs during his MSL runs, except the last.
he was not unstoppable in any of these timespans you like to mention
Then why was sAviOr unstoppable during his run?
Again it seems like you cherry pick success from one guy and failure from another when if you look at both leagues combined they both were having at least one success story each season for a streak of multiple seasons. How is this different?
because no one ever has been comparable to Flash in 2010 and that's what it takes to be a bonjwa nowadays
Then based on your own logic nobody except Flash can be considered a bonjwa, since all of the others lack in some area that Flash has succeeded but which you hold against Jaedong.
Boxer wasn't dominant enough and Nada didn't change the game enough? Reaaaaalllllly?
Luckily for me I didn't say either of those things. You seem to need to create straw men arguments which you assign to me so you can knock them down. If my arguments are invalid then address them directly on their own merits. Just because someone says they think Kobe is the best player in basketball doesn't mean they automatically hate LeBron and think his accomplishments are worthless. I specifically stated in the first section of the article that I acknowledge all of the five bonjwas and consider them all truly great and transcendent players.
From what I can tell the significant difference between you and I is that I don't pretend to know everything and haven't decided beforehand that I'm right and know more than you. The majority of my points have been specifically phrased as questions so that people will address them by giving me answers. I'm not afraid of being wrong and learning something new.
Of course you're free to continue acting exasperated because I took BoxeR's name in vain rather than address my points with specifics, as I've repeatedly requested.
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BTW for everyone else, I forgot to mention this earlier, in every series during his run from 2009 onwards I've pulled for Flash over Jaedong every time. So this is not about a Jaedong fanboy downplaying Flash's dominance to try and make Jaedong seem better in comparison. If anything I am a Bisu fanboy and then a Flash fanboy to a slightly lesser degree, though I appreciate the play and accomplishments of any great player on its own merits.
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Can we start banning people for the b word again?
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to me and many others, jd is already a bonjwa.
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you can't have 2 bonjwas of one time period. that's why neither jaedong nor flash is a bonjwa
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On May 29 2011 02:07 Eknoid4 wrote:
you can't have 2 bonjwas of one time period. that's why neither jaedong nor flash is a bonjwa
Your first sentence is true. See my post several above. I argue that JD was bonjwa prior to Flash's god-mode, as Flash only reached and won 1 final in a span where JD went 4-1 in finals. And JD only won 1 final during a span where Flash won 4, so Flash definitely rose above JD at this time.
There is PLENTY of room for both of them to be bonjwas at different times.
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I think you're trying too hard to affix a title to someone that means a lot less than you think it does. This energy people spend on this kind of fanboyism could be better spent in so many other ways.
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On May 29 2011 00:41 Thorin wrote:
* Since BoxeR meets almost none of the bonjwa criteria of the others, dominating for all of three seasons in terms of golds, why is he allowed to be considered an honorary bonjwa but Jaedong is not?
Flash and Jaedong in interviews have specifically labeled Boxer the greatest player ever so...?
These notions like "winning 4 SL's in a row" were developed because NaDa, Oov and Savior followed that line. They don't actually address what bonjwa is all about: being undisputed. Proving yourself over every challenger who appears.
In Boxer's day, OSL was the biggest tournament, true, but you have to understand that you are naively applying thoughts you hav developed from watching SC in the TBLS era to a completely different era. Back then, "Starleague" didn't really mean all that much more than a host of other tournaments: Game-Q, KBK, iTV, ghemTV, etc. Even WCG... back then foreigners actually COULD compete with top pros. Guys like Slayer, Giyom, and Elky actually made names for themselves in Korea.
OSL and KPGA, which later became MSL, managed to stand out over the competition over time, after they successfully built images that far surpassed rival leagues.
* If you have to radically alter the metagame and make genius changes to your race then why is NaDa a bonjwa on that criteria bearing in mind he basically has the most in common with the modern era of players by taking what the great players before them did and basically applying superior mechanics and repetition to "perfecting" those strategies?
Could you possibly talk further out of your ass? NaDa is not known as a "strategic player" because he always played by the book. But NaDa wrote the fucking book. Modern TvP can be traced back to NaDa, who took us out of the age of 2 factory play and slow pushes and gay cliff turtling on Lost Temple and into the age of midgame timing pushes and the 200/200 14-16 minute push that to this day is a TvP staple. Arguably NaDa has had the greatest stamp on TvP ever, perhaps only surpassed by St.Eagle. His greater focus on macro in TvT and TvZ helped pave the way for later players like Oov.
NaDa was called the "Genius Terran" for a reason dude. I suggest you look these things up before running your mouth like a fool. NaDa was a player who was a master of all aspects but one: mind games, which wouldn't become a big component of pro SC until Oov.
You can't have two bonjwas at the same time.
You can't have two people be undisputed at the same time. That defeats the meaning of the word.
You can't apply bonjwa retroactively, Jaedong has missed his opportunity.
All of the bonjwas were named retroactively. Almost as soon as sAviOr became the first active bonjwa he was dethroned and spiraled out of bonjwahood. BoxeR, NaDa and iloveoov were all named bonjwas retroactively.
This point is correct. The term bonjwa was first used by July's fans to recognize July, but the SC community as a whole did not recognize July as bonjwa despite that he held KeSPA #1 for 10 months consecutively. Savior was the first the term was universally applied to both by fans and haters alike.
Jaedong's rightful term of dominance 2009. Although he was strong throughout 2008, Protoss season interrupted his dominance with both Bisu and Stork ahead of Jaedong at one point. In 2009 JD went OSL-OSL-MSL, which was his case for bonjwa, but the point that went against him was Flash. Starting in mid 2009 when Jaedong was entering his height, Flash started to see a resurgence through his performance in GOM. When faced with Flash in the Ever 09/NATE season, JD was 2-0'd out of OSL. He came back for a 3-1 in MSL but that was with the Power Outage event spoiling the result. A few days later Flash wins in PL. Fans felt that JD wasn't rightfully tested during the bo5 Power Outage event since the event visibly shook Flash off his game. And so Jaedong did not pass the last test to bonjwahood.
In my opinion, Jaedong really can be compared to players with the label and arguably deserves it. He spent much of 2008 and pretty much all of 2009 being the strongest player and achieved a bonjwa-like gap in accomplishments over his rivals. However if we look at the rival situation, the picture is less flattering: players like Stork, Bisu, Fantasy and Free were definitely able to face JD evenly. That is where Jaedong fell short. By the time he was clear of other rivals there was Flash.
Again: for the sake of the discussion rather than tell someone they are wrong or that you're right how about coming up with an interesting perspective or addressing the specific points they raised in support of their case.
Don't make naive, uninformed statements and then try to cop your way out with such a bullcrap statement. You are wrong about a lot of things. You clearly weren't there, weren't watching progaming, formed a few uninformed ideas about the way things worked from reading comments made by people who read comments made by people who read comments made by people who were actually there. Your information isn't even second hand, let alone first hand, and it's rooted in ignorance.
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Sigh.
Bonjwa is about uncontested domination. This thread alone has eight pages of contestation. Therefore, not bonjwa.
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EPT
