EPTJaedong should be one of the bonjwas - Page 7
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Cpadolf
Sweden1199 Posts
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Legatus Lanius
2135 Posts
On May 28 2011 23:09 aupstar wrote: I don't know how you reached the conclusion that there was a general consensus (probably a general consensus amongst jaedong fans) because the game itself played out similarly to one of their previous games where jaedong was way ahead economically but flash came in with with a few dropships and won the game. Flash even says afterwards that he thought he could win the game...and it's not like they went straight to the next game after the power outage occurred. It took like an hour for the next game to begin and Flash was visibly shaken by it. I think if Flash thinks he could've won the game then there was a big possibility that he could have. alot of posters analysed it from the vods. kwark comes to mind, but there were others. flash's economy was dwindling and jaedong had a pretty good grip on 4 gas. you could probably search for the thread will all the discussion, but i can assure you that it was objective and not jaedong fans ganging up on flash lol flash can say what he likes, but he was in seriousssss trouble by the time the power died in that game | ||
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bluetrolls
United States139 Posts
On May 28 2011 23:28 Legatus Lanius wrote: flash can say what he likes, but he was in seriousssss trouble by the time the power died in that game Do you realize how disrespectful your attitude is? Flash earned the right to say what he thinks. | ||
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Legatus Lanius
2135 Posts
On May 28 2011 23:31 bluetrolls wrote: Do you realize how disrespectful your attitude is? Flash earned the right to say what he thinks. which part of 'flash can say what he likes' did you fail to comprehend? i prefer to base my judgment on actual analysis, not the words of the guy that was ruled against | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On May 28 2011 23:15 Slardar wrote: Basically this sums it up. Although Flash had that one incredibly dominant year, one year doesn't justify "Bonjawa" status. Saviour for example was dominant for like 2-3 years before his eventual slump and or fall. JD was dominant for about 1-2 years prior to Flash's "breakout" year, but I guess he wasn't THAT dominant enough to be crowned Bonjawa. Also it took that year of brilliance by Flash to catch up in terms of medals to Jaedong so JD was always ahead in those terms. I guess Nada isn't a bonjwa then? Remember, Nada's title as a bonjwa is not for his consistency (his consistency has earned him the title of greatest player to date) but his dominance in 2002-2003, where he won four titles in 10 months in a similar fashion to flash (1 win 1 win double win). He was an absolutely amazing and even title worthy before that run (as demonstrated in his winning of lesser tournaments), but the exact same can be said of Flash and his GOM wins and OSL win before his bonjwa year. Also, Savior wasn't dominant for 2-3 years. Savior was dominant from late 2005 till early 2007 (March 3rd, one might note). This is a little over a year and a half. So everything you're saying is patently untrue. If savior had dominated for 3 years that means he was dominating in early 04, which is deep in oov territory. >:o | ||
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aupstar
Australia912 Posts
On May 28 2011 23:28 Legatus Lanius wrote: alot of posters analysed it from the vods. kwark comes to mind, but there were others. flash's economy was dwindling and jaedong had a pretty good grip on 4 gas. you could probably search for the thread will all the discussion, but i can assure you that it was objective and not jaedong fans ganging up on flash lol flash can say what he likes, but he was in seriousssss trouble by the time the power died in that game Remember I didn't say he would win..I said there was a chance he could win...Honestly speaking the game should have been discounted and they should just have continued onto the next maps. Furthermore the games are strongly influenced by the mentality of the player. Flash felt that the judgement was incorrect and lost all his will to play after that hour long battle with the referees. I don't think Jaedong had the same feeling as he could rest assured that he got the win regardless and needed to win just one more game to lift the osl trophy. And saying a lot of posters said such and such doesn't really compare to how a pro gamer at the heights of bw is able to interpret the flow of the game. Economy isn't everything and flash has immaculate m&m control..He was doing great with his small rag tag teams during the game. | ||
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Legatus Lanius
2135 Posts
in the end, they are just words, idgaf if flash himself says he couldve won. i am much rather interested in posts like this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=110681 http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=110678 because they arent just words, they are words and analysis, backed up by the vods from the looks of things, jaedong had a pretty heavy economic advantage and flash didnt have much in the way of a MnM. he had maybe a squad of marines, some burnt out science vessels and 6 patches of minerals. he didnt even have a gas =/. i dont think even jesus christ's marines could hold off jaedong in that situation | ||
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Astrapto
United States69 Posts
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Legatus Lanius
2135 Posts
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On May 28 2011 23:55 Astrapto wrote: Isn't it the idea of a bonjwa that it's indisputable? I wouldn't say indisputable, as any anti-fan can just walk up and claim Savior wasn't that good and voila, someone is disputing it. It's mostly just an overwhelming community consensus. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
On May 28 2011 23:59 TwoToneTerran wrote: I wouldn't say indisputable, as any anti-fan can just walk up and claim Savior wasn't that good and voila, someone is disputing it. It's mostly just an overwhelming community consensus. Find me someone who actually can't admit Savior in his top form wasn't a bonjwa. Savior was the reason the word 'bonjwa' was created (and it was added retrospectively to older dominant players). | ||
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KristianJS
2107 Posts
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Legatus Lanius
2135 Posts
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On May 29 2011 00:04 Chef wrote: Find me someone who actually can't admit Savior in his top form wasn't a bonjwa. Savior was the reason the word 'bonjwa' was created (and it was added retrospectively to older dominant players). There are many idiots. | ||
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aupstar
Australia912 Posts
On May 28 2011 23:54 Legatus Lanius wrote: im not arguing the 4th game, im simply arguing the 3rd. of course every game after that is tainted and theres no way to say how it wouldve played out. in the end, they are just words, idgaf if flash himself says he couldve won. i am much rather interested in posts like this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=110681 http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=110678 because they arent just words, they are words and analysis, backed up by the vods from the looks of things, jaedong had a pretty heavy economic advantage and flash didnt have much in the way of a MnM. he had maybe a squad of marines, some burnt out science vessels and 6 patches of minerals. he didnt even have a gas =/. i dont think even jesus christ's marines could hold off jaedong in that situation There was no reply after the blackout..A lot of the analysis is just conjecture but I do agree with some of the points to a degree. There have been just so many games where Flash's opponents have had the lead and he just comes back to win it all it's not funny. Who knows what kind of damage he would have been able to do with dropships...with the amount of pressure he was consistently maintaining on Jaedong, we do not know how long he would have been able to keep his mineral only. He had enough gas to maintain a reasonable sci vessel count or create a reasonable tank army according to some of the remarks made about remaining gas. Who knows where the game would have gone, perhaps he would be able to secure a gas expo eventually...I don't know...Nobody does... Even Evochamber (in your second link) states that Flash had a chance of winning when the power went out. | ||
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Nikon
Bulgaria5710 Posts
Now, you might say, that it disheartened him for game four. I find this to be also wrong: Flash went for an aggressive build, however Jaedong was first able to metagame Flash by guessing a more aggressive opener, and afterwards scout the second barracks off of one base and prepare for it adequately. It just didn't work out for Flash. I'd like to note here that Flash did not lose immediately after his first attack being held off. He died due to his chronic dislike for turrets allowing Jaedong to draw his marines away from his natural permamently and barge in with muta/ling moments later. It's true that Flash ended Jaedong's run and began his own in 2010. Add the two previous titles and it sealed the deal. But before that, Jaedong had this nailed down to the floor. Yes, Flash is the reason that he has not won more but... Starcraft has reached the point where it can consistently produce great players, and so the overturn time between top cats has been shortened considerably. Or maybe not, depending on how long can Flash keep winning. Or maybe Jaedong will resurrect from the dead to kill Flash? We'll see, there's plenty of time for that. | ||
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Legatus Lanius
2135 Posts
as for the gas part. well definitely not tanks since he didnt have a machine shop, and i dont really know how he wouldve been able to make both dropships and vessels of too almost depleted gas in the end, ANYTHING can happen. jaedong could suffer a stroke and die and flash wouldve won the game. | ||
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darkemperor
Turkey725 Posts
IMHO, this Bonjwa title is bullshit. Ok it adds speciality to the scene. It's like the GOAT title people give in sports but when you have 5 people in such category, it loses its significance. Flash is arguably the best progamer of all time. And Nada has longevity to claim his case. Boxer was great tactician. Oov was a monster who had great skills in all matchups, his 27-0 record vZ at that time was unbelievable. MJY was overall great. He had charisma, he had skills. IMO people should look at things like that. It's more enjoyable and eliminates the controversies like "Bonjwa title". | ||
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
@ op: jaedong can not be considered a bonjwa whilst having a rival (flash) who is equal to or arguably better than he is. | ||
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gk_ender
United States717 Posts
May the moderators protect us | ||
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