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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uziZd.jpg)
It's my opinion that 'The Tyrant'  Jaedong deserves to be considered one of the bonjwas and in a lengthy article I use argumentation, statistics and context to make my case.
The three major criteria I consider:
-Accomplishments
-Domination through excellence
-Historical context
Some of the sub-criteria discussed:
-The significance of JvZ
-Jaedong as an all time clutch player
-Jaedong's ELO peaks vs. those of the bonjwas
-Jaedong's finals, titles and semi-final streaks vs. those of the bonjwas
-The  Flash factor
-The sAviOr factor - Domination without qualification
-The NaDa factor - one part or the whole?
-The iloveoov factor - the deceptive nature of perfection
-The BoxeR factor - silver still shines in the light of greatness
The article can be read in full at SK Gaming.
Warning: Contains spoilers for semi-final #1 of the ABC Mart MSL!
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He would have been considered one... if it wasn't for Flash. :3
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50120 Posts
On May 28 2011 17:22 moopie wrote:
He would have been considered one... if it wasn't for Flash. :3
considered?
if it weren't for flash he would most definitely be crowned Bonjwa.
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JD is S+ class but not bonjwa.
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For me, Both JD and Flash are Bonjwas. JD qualified as a bonjwa during his peak and I don't know why he isn't crowned yet(especially when he won Nate MSL). They should've did before Flash came because it seems to be too late now.
Edit: I understand why his victory in Nate isn't that "legit" but I think(he won that game and) that he still deserves to be a bonjwa. Just my opinion.+ Show Spoiler +
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I consider both Flash and Jaedong bonjwas. Maybe people don't agree with my criteria, but I think that if there are two players that dominate the scene and only lose to each other reliably they can both be considered bonjwas. Would boxer not be a bonjwa if there were a clone of himself playing?
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I may be ignorant... but what defines a Bonjwa? is it just a player who dominates against all odds? The best player at a give time or what?
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Seems like this article is: "oh, Jaedong is starting to fade away, poor thing, let's make him a bonjwa".
And he isn't.
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There can only be one bonjwa at the time, and we already have Flash, so no.
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I M O Jaedong is a Bonjwa and so is flash... idk jaedong was not considered one a long time ago...
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On May 28 2011 17:33 ff7legend wrote:
I may be ignorant... but what defines a Bonjwa? is it just a player who dominates against all odds? The best player at a give time or what?
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Bonjwa
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He is one, it's just his anti-fans that would tell you otherwise.
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Normally you see these threads when + Show Spoiler +a player wins an MSL/OSL, not when they just got knocked out of one
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On May 28 2011 17:35 Nikon wrote:
He isn't one, it's just his fans that would tell you otherwise.
Correction.
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After Savior, it took Flash winning both finals at the same time to finally reach bonjwa status, on top of being the clearly most dominant player in PL. The stakes for becoming one have been impossibly high since Savior and it's frankly startling and, I think, an aberration that Flash became one as I don't think he'll come close to such feats again.
Jaedong will be the best player to not be a bonjwa, sad but true.
On May 28 2011 17:31 NicksonReyes wrote:
For me, Both JD and Flash are Bonjwas. JD qualified as a bonjwa during his peak and I don't know why he isn't crowned yet(especially when he won Nate MSL). They should've did before Flash came because it seems to be too late now.
Do you honestly not get why his Nate MSL win wasn't the final crowning achievement?
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Bonjwa is just a fucking word, which 95% of all people here are not even able to use correctly. The obsession with this word is just a complete mystery to me, I really don't know why it isn't enough to say "best player of 2008/2009" or whatever.
I don't lose any sleep over the fact that Flash is considered a Bonjwa and Jaedong isn't. There is just so little that seperates their greatness. Do you guys really feel better if one day some korean commentators are screaming in a high-pitched voice "He is bonjwa, he is bonjwa, Lee Jae Dong!!!" ?
I just don't get it.
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Flash is Bonjwa, but I don't know about JD.
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I love how people comment "Jaedong is/isn't a bonjwa" without reading the damn article. Very well written and definitely a very logical way of showing that he should be considered a bonjwa.
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After my little rant before, nevertheless I have to say that this is a very beautiful article and you present a very good case. I love to read about all the awesome things Jaedong has done, I just have no interest in the label itself.
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When some people say that Jaedong is a bonjwa and other say Flash is (with their teams' logo in the signature), it is clear that none of them are, because no one has dominated the other for a lengthy period of time. Sorry guys.
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lilsusie: Jaedong, you are very good, many people believe you are the fifth bonjwa.
Jaedong: Actually, I have a long way to go to live up to the accomplishments of those great players, and while I am flattered, I don't think names like that are very important. I am satisfied with Tyrant because it is a nickname that came from the fans.
Netizens: All hail God Young-ho!
Jaedong: -_-
I think this is what happened. Actually, if you look at traditional 3MSL1OSL, Jaedong and Flash have been at 3 MSL finals and 1 OSL final together (Flash has won 3 and Jaedong 1). That's quite telling.
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This is about JD not flash.
No shit flash is bonjwa.
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I think this has been said time and time again but I`ll reiterate:
The reason why neither Flash or Jaedong can be considered Bonjwa is that they are both S+ at the same time. As a Bonjwa you are supposed to be utterly dominant, and above everyone else for an extended period of time. You cannot have two Bonjwas at the same time, thus none of them are. They are many other great things, but they cannot be Bonjwa since they mutually exclude eachother from the title.
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On May 28 2011 17:48 cybertopo wrote:
When some people say that Jaedong is a bonjwa and other say Flash is (with their teams' logo in the signature), it is clear that none of them are, because no one has dominated the other for a lengthy period of time. Sorry guys.
past MSLs and OSLs beg to differ
On May 28 2011 17:58 Grend wrote:
I think this has been said time and time again but I`ll reiterate:
The reason why neither Flash or Jaedong can be considered Bonjwa is that they are both S+ at the same time. As a Bonjwa you are supposed to be utterly dominant, and above everyone else.
You mean like 2 consecutive dual finals with 3 titles from them,dual gold + PL title the same season and 1k above the rest in the Kespa rank? Clearly no one has ever made this, but if someone does he should be called bonjwa
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I love your more analytical approach to Starcraft history. Great article as always.
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On May 28 2011 17:56 jjhchsc2 wrote:
This is about JD not flash.
No shit flash is bonjwa.
Flash ain't bonjwa he is god.
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In general, I agree, at least if it weren't for Flash. I like LeeSsang more than bonjwa though.
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Anyhow I think the article misses out on something that defined the term bonjwa. Let's exclude Flash from this and I'll address that later.
The separating factor between Boxer/Nada/Oov/Savior and other dominant players such as July and Jaedong is that they dominated through innovation. No other players have changed the game in a more fundamental way than those four, the domination was what came about because of their innovation. They not only dominated the game, but did so in a way that completely mystified fans and other players alike -- it wasn't an issue of how good, or successful they were, as these things were just side effects of their gamechanging ways.
For instance, Savior was a bonjwa even when he only had 2 MSL titles, and even after he lost to Chojja in the MSL while dropping in qualifiers of the OSL. Oov was the most dominant player on the scene through his gamechanging macro plays despite not qualifying for an OSL (though the term was not created at this time, he still had this level of domination and mystique). This entire article does nothing but cite titles and how deep Jaedong has made runs into starleagues over a very long period of time. Jaedong might be the most impressively consistent player since Nada, but Nada was not given the moniker of Bonjwa because he could come back five years after his time of dominance and still win an OSL, it was what he did in a brief period years before in how he changed the game and dominated through it.
This is why I believe Flash being a bonjwa is an aberration. Flash has not fundamentally changed the game in even close to the same way Boxer, Nada, Oov and Savior have -- I'd argue he hasn't changed the face of the game as much as even Jaedong. Flash's discrepancy is that he did achieve a level of dominant mystique similar to the bonjwas, but did it by creating so many different builds and tactics that, while not fundamentally changing the game, he rocked the foundation of the scene for a straight year in a way that not even previous bonjwas have. Flash became a bonjwa through sheer dominance at a level that Jaedong can't match, and did so at Jaedong's expense (Jaedong has been startingly consistent, but at no point in his career was he even close to what Flash did in 2010).
This is not a slight to Jaedong, as Flash clearly isn't the same level of dominant he was in 2010 and I think it is completely unreasonable to expect that out of anyone. Becoming a bonjwa through sheer domination as this article implies is almost impossible and Jaedong has not done that. He has not reached a level of domination through innovation that every non-Flash bonjwa has. He comes up short in the particular reasons that the other Bonjwas are considered, and frankly it's not that fair because I don't think any player has worked as hard for his success as Jaedong.
Flash is a completely different bonjwa from the previous ones, and Jaedong has not lived up to that level of dominance (It took flash beating Jaedong in both finals to do it, what has Jaedong done similarly?), and unless Jaedong finds something out that rocks the foundation of broodwar from a sheer fundamental standpoint and uses that to dominate, he's not going to have the same mystique that the others had and receive their monikers in the same way.
Basically, Jaedong will have to double title while taking out Flash in both of them (not necessarily in the finals, but atleast take out flash somewhere in the tournaments) to achieve the title the same way Flash did. He's got the build up but he doesn't have the finish, so to say.
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Bonjwa is an irrelevant 'title' as far as Jaedong is concerned. He's the greatest zerg of all time and holds superior accomplishments than 3 of the 5 bonjwas, so crowning him a bonjwa doesn't add anything to his legacy.
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
Hmm... Jaedong can't be Bonjwa because Bonjwa means "the one" and he wasn't really dominating for a long enough period of time without contest. Actually I think that a fight for a "bonjwa" title began in 2010 I think, and we all know that Jaedong lost this fight, and this title went to Flash. 
Though, Jaedong can be considered the best non-bonjwa player of all time.
Come on, the title of bonjwa isn't all, he can still pwn Flash and this is no less honor 
Well, if he still won, let's say, one league this season and went to the final of another (while Flash would win none of it, and Jaedong would beat Flash in a final), then we could name him a 6th bonjwa... but he didn't T_T
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He definitely would have been if not for Flash unfortunately
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Any bonjwa discussion that brings in numbers misses the point.
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I've been following the Brood War scene for a while and what I missed before I started playing, I've gone back and caught up on the modern history of Starcraft. Would someone please tell me why Flash and Jaedong are considered for Bonjwa-ness? Don't get me wrong, I love both of them, but they haven't dominated long enough nor considerably enough in my opinion to be considered Bonjwas. They are VERY good players and would hand my ass to me on a silver (or gold) platter, but there is simply not enough evidence to support either one being crowned a Bonjwa. There is no Bonjwa right now and there hasn't been for some time. Best player in the world =/= Bonjwa. That's my two cents.
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On May 28 2011 18:10 Gifted.TempO wrote:
I've been following the Brood War scene for a while and what I missed before I started playing, I've gone back and caught up on the modern history of Starcraft. Would someone please tell me why Flash and Jaedong are considered for Bonjwa-ness? Don't get me wrong, I love both of them, but they haven't dominated long enough nor considerably enough in my opinion to be considered Bonjwas. They are VERY good players and would hand my ass to me on a silver (or gold) platter, but there is simply not enough evidence to support either one being crowned a Bonjwa. There is no Bonjwa right now and there hasn't been for some time. Best player in the world =/= Bonjwa. That's my two cents.
Flash received the moniker because he appeared in every finals for a straight year and was unquestionably the best player for over a year, which is a similar stretch of time to the other bonjwas and his accomplishments in such a short time shadow the bonjwas. Jaedong has yet to receive the title and that's why this article was made.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/SLeiu.png)
God Young Ho.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KyH2r.png)
Other finalists between championships. Surely the best player, but just too much competition.
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to be fair Bisu should be more a bonjwa, if the most successful protoss isn't a bonjwa then we can conclude that bw is imba.
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On May 28 2011 18:15 fearus wrote:
to be fair Bisu should be more a bonjwa, if the most successful protoss isn't a bonjwa then we can conclude that bw is imba.
You know he was going to be until he blew it against Mind. He even has the domination through innovation bit I mentioned, but well hard to be a bonjwa when you suck at PvT lol.
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Cool story. I just honestly don't think he should be considered a Bonjwa. Even though he considers Flash bonjwa, I think TwoToneTerran said it best when he said Flash hasn't changed anything, not a thing. I'm not saying he's a bad player at all, he has won many very important, prestigious, and impressive titles, but I don't think he meets the criteria for the Bonjwa title.
Moral of the story: Until the Commentators and SC:BW progames start throwing the title in Flash's direction, he's not Bonjwa. They know better than us.
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He's mostly a bonjwa because korea considers him one and we just kind of adapt what they say. The commentators have been calling him above bonjwa for half a year now, lol.
PS: I didn't say Flash has changed nothing, that is patently false. I just said his changes did not LEAD to his domination the way it did other bonjwas. You can pinpoint how their playstyles changed the game and made them incredibly hard to beat moreso than their just raw skill and preparation -- which is how Flash and Jaedong win. They're both still very integral to the current metagame.
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On May 28 2011 18:15 fearus wrote:
to be fair Bisu should be more a bonjwa, if the most successful protoss isn't a bonjwa then we can conclude that bw is imba.
its okay, we'll make a super special position just for bisu 
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Really? Well then. Guess I don't listen well. Thanks for telling me before I made more of a fool of myself. 
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On May 28 2011 17:56 jjhchsc2 wrote:
This is about JD not flash.
No shit flash is bonjwa.
Flash's career is relevant to a discussion about why it's not obvious whether Jaedong should be in the line. I recommend http://www.hookedonphonics.com/.
On May 28 2011 18:03 TwoToneTerran wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Anyhow I think the article misses out on something that defined the term bonjwa. Let's exclude Flash from this and I'll address that later.
The separating factor between Boxer/Nada/Oov/Savior and other dominant players such as July and Jaedong is that they dominated through innovation. No other players have changed the game in a more fundamental way than those four, the domination was what came about because of their innovation. They not only dominated the game, but did so in a way that completely mystified fans and other players alike -- it wasn't an issue of how good, or successful they were, as these things were just side effects of their gamechanging ways.
For instance, Savior was a bonjwa even when he only had 2 MSL titles, and even after he lost to Chojja in the MSL while dropping in qualifiers of the OSL. Oov was the most dominant player on the scene through his gamechanging macro plays despite not qualifying for an OSL (though the term was not created at this time, he still had this level of domination and mystique). This entire article does nothing but cite titles and how deep Jaedong has made runs into starleagues over a very long period of time. Jaedong might be the most impressively consistent player since Nada, but Nada was not given the moniker of Bonjwa because he could come back five years after his time of dominance and still win an OSL, it was what he did in a brief period years before in how he changed the game and dominated through it.
This is why I believe Flash being a bonjwa is an aberration. Flash has not fundamentally changed the game in even close to the same way Boxer, Nada, Oov and Savior have -- I'd argue he hasn't changed the face of the game as much as even Jaedong. Flash's discrepancy is that he did achieve a level of dominant mystique similar to the bonjwas, but did it by creating so many different builds and tactics that, while not fundamentally changing the game, he rocked the foundation of the scene for a straight year in a way that not even previous bonjwas have. Flash became a bonjwa through sheer dominance at a level that Jaedong can't match, and did so at Jaedong's expense (Jaedong has been startingly consistent, but at no point in his career was he even close to what Flash did in 2010).
This is not a slight to Jaedong, as Flash clearly isn't the same level of dominant he was in 2010 and I think it is completely unreasonable to expect that out of anyone. Becoming a bonjwa through sheer domination as this article implies is almost impossible and Jaedong has not done that. He has not reached a level of domination through innovation that every non-Flash bonjwa has. He comes up short in the particular reasons that the other Bonjwas are considered, and frankly it's not that fair because I don't think any player has worked as hard for his success as Jaedong.
Flash is a completely different bonjwa from the previous ones, and Jaedong has not lived up to that level of dominance (It took flash beating Jaedong in both finals to do it, what has Jaedong done similarly?), and unless Jaedong finds something out that rocks the foundation of broodwar from a sheer fundamental standpoint and uses that to dominate, he's not going to have the same mystique that the others had and receive their monikers through.
Should we go through their contributions to SC theory? Jaedong has brought 5 hatch hydra to the forefront of ZvP, and even now he's trying to move to a standard of 6hatch4base hive management, right? He's birthed modern ZvZ, which hasn't been undone by any demonstration that hive ZvZ can do better (hive right now is just an extension, albeit these days better understood). Also, he standardized aggressive 2 hatch muta against T, although recently he's also shifted his ZvT to prefer 3 hatch openings.
Whereas you think Flash's contributions are more numerous but not as game changing, but he was clearly more dominant. I think Terran has always had an easier time at the very top than Zerg.
On May 28 2011 18:10 Gifted.TempO wrote:
I've been following the Brood War scene for a while and what I missed before I started playing, I've gone back and caught up on the modern history of Starcraft. Would someone please tell me why Flash and Jaedong are considered for Bonjwa-ness? Don't get me wrong, I love both of them, but they haven't dominated long enough nor considerably enough in my opinion to be considered Bonjwas. They are VERY good players and would hand my ass to me on a silver (or gold) platter, but there is simply not enough evidence to support either one being crowned a Bonjwa. There is no Bonjwa right now and there hasn't been for some time. Best player in the world =/= Bonjwa. That's my two cents.
I cheer for Jaedong, but this disrespects Flash's accomplishments.
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He is always in the shadow of Flash,if Flash wasn`t the god of BW of course JD would be considered a Bonjwa. I don`t think there can be 2 bonjwas at the same time.
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On May 28 2011 18:25 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 17:56 jjhchsc2 wrote:
This is about JD not flash.
No shit flash is bonjwa. Flash's career is relevant to a discussion about why it's not obvious whether Jaedong should be in the line. I recommend http://www.hookedonphonics.com/. Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 18:03 TwoToneTerran wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Anyhow I think the article misses out on something that defined the term bonjwa. Let's exclude Flash from this and I'll address that later.
The separating factor between Boxer/Nada/Oov/Savior and other dominant players such as July and Jaedong is that they dominated through innovation. No other players have changed the game in a more fundamental way than those four, the domination was what came about because of their innovation. They not only dominated the game, but did so in a way that completely mystified fans and other players alike -- it wasn't an issue of how good, or successful they were, as these things were just side effects of their gamechanging ways.
For instance, Savior was a bonjwa even when he only had 2 MSL titles, and even after he lost to Chojja in the MSL while dropping in qualifiers of the OSL. Oov was the most dominant player on the scene through his gamechanging macro plays despite not qualifying for an OSL (though the term was not created at this time, he still had this level of domination and mystique). This entire article does nothing but cite titles and how deep Jaedong has made runs into starleagues over a very long period of time. Jaedong might be the most impressively consistent player since Nada, but Nada was not given the moniker of Bonjwa because he could come back five years after his time of dominance and still win an OSL, it was what he did in a brief period years before in how he changed the game and dominated through it.
This is why I believe Flash being a bonjwa is an aberration. Flash has not fundamentally changed the game in even close to the same way Boxer, Nada, Oov and Savior have -- I'd argue he hasn't changed the face of the game as much as even Jaedong. Flash's discrepancy is that he did achieve a level of dominant mystique similar to the bonjwas, but did it by creating so many different builds and tactics that, while not fundamentally changing the game, he rocked the foundation of the scene for a straight year in a way that not even previous bonjwas have. Flash became a bonjwa through sheer dominance at a level that Jaedong can't match, and did so at Jaedong's expense (Jaedong has been startingly consistent, but at no point in his career was he even close to what Flash did in 2010).
This is not a slight to Jaedong, as Flash clearly isn't the same level of dominant he was in 2010 and I think it is completely unreasonable to expect that out of anyone. Becoming a bonjwa through sheer domination as this article implies is almost impossible and Jaedong has not done that. He has not reached a level of domination through innovation that every non-Flash bonjwa has. He comes up short in the particular reasons that the other Bonjwas are considered, and frankly it's not that fair because I don't think any player has worked as hard for his success as Jaedong.
Flash is a completely different bonjwa from the previous ones, and Jaedong has not lived up to that level of dominance (It took flash beating Jaedong in both finals to do it, what has Jaedong done similarly?), and unless Jaedong finds something out that rocks the foundation of broodwar from a sheer fundamental standpoint and uses that to dominate, he's not going to have the same mystique that the others had and receive their monikers through. Should we go through their contributions to SC theory? Jaedong has brought 5 hatch hydra to the forefront of ZvP, and even now he's trying to move to a standard of 6hatch4base hive management, right? He's birthed modern ZvZ, which hasn't been undone by any demonstration that hive ZvZ can do better (hive right now is just an extension, albeit these days better understood). Also, he standardized aggressive 2 hatch muta against T, although recently he's also shifted his ZvT to prefer 3 hatch openings. Whereas you think Flash's contributions are more numerous but not as game changing, but he was clearly more dominant. I think Terran has always had an easier time at the very top than Zerg.
Flash's changes have been more subtle. He changed the timings for TvZ/ZvT, he invented the Flash Build and improved everything else thanks to his mechanics
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On May 28 2011 18:25 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 17:56 jjhchsc2 wrote:
This is about JD not flash.
No shit flash is bonjwa. Flash's career is relevant to a discussion about why it's not obvious whether Jaedong should be in the line. I recommend http://www.hookedonphonics.com/. Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 18:03 TwoToneTerran wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Anyhow I think the article misses out on something that defined the term bonjwa. Let's exclude Flash from this and I'll address that later.
The separating factor between Boxer/Nada/Oov/Savior and other dominant players such as July and Jaedong is that they dominated through innovation. No other players have changed the game in a more fundamental way than those four, the domination was what came about because of their innovation. They not only dominated the game, but did so in a way that completely mystified fans and other players alike -- it wasn't an issue of how good, or successful they were, as these things were just side effects of their gamechanging ways.
For instance, Savior was a bonjwa even when he only had 2 MSL titles, and even after he lost to Chojja in the MSL while dropping in qualifiers of the OSL. Oov was the most dominant player on the scene through his gamechanging macro plays despite not qualifying for an OSL (though the term was not created at this time, he still had this level of domination and mystique). This entire article does nothing but cite titles and how deep Jaedong has made runs into starleagues over a very long period of time. Jaedong might be the most impressively consistent player since Nada, but Nada was not given the moniker of Bonjwa because he could come back five years after his time of dominance and still win an OSL, it was what he did in a brief period years before in how he changed the game and dominated through it.
This is why I believe Flash being a bonjwa is an aberration. Flash has not fundamentally changed the game in even close to the same way Boxer, Nada, Oov and Savior have -- I'd argue he hasn't changed the face of the game as much as even Jaedong. Flash's discrepancy is that he did achieve a level of dominant mystique similar to the bonjwas, but did it by creating so many different builds and tactics that, while not fundamentally changing the game, he rocked the foundation of the scene for a straight year in a way that not even previous bonjwas have. Flash became a bonjwa through sheer dominance at a level that Jaedong can't match, and did so at Jaedong's expense (Jaedong has been startingly consistent, but at no point in his career was he even close to what Flash did in 2010).
This is not a slight to Jaedong, as Flash clearly isn't the same level of dominant he was in 2010 and I think it is completely unreasonable to expect that out of anyone. Becoming a bonjwa through sheer domination as this article implies is almost impossible and Jaedong has not done that. He has not reached a level of domination through innovation that every non-Flash bonjwa has. He comes up short in the particular reasons that the other Bonjwas are considered, and frankly it's not that fair because I don't think any player has worked as hard for his success as Jaedong.
Flash is a completely different bonjwa from the previous ones, and Jaedong has not lived up to that level of dominance (It took flash beating Jaedong in both finals to do it, what has Jaedong done similarly?), and unless Jaedong finds something out that rocks the foundation of broodwar from a sheer fundamental standpoint and uses that to dominate, he's not going to have the same mystique that the others had and receive their monikers through. Should we go through their contributions to SC theory? Jaedong has brought 5 hatch hydra to the forefront of ZvP, and even now he's trying to move to a standard of 6hatch4base hive management, right? He's birthed modern ZvZ, which hasn't been undone by any demonstration that hive ZvZ can do better (hive right now is just an extension, albeit these days better understood). Also, he standardized aggressive 2 hatch muta against T, although recently he's also shifted his ZvT to prefer 3 hatch openings. Whereas you think Flash's contributions are more numerous but not as game changing, but he was clearly more dominant. I think Terran has always had an easier time at the very top than Zerg. Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 18:10 Gifted.TempO wrote:
I've been following the Brood War scene for a while and what I missed before I started playing, I've gone back and caught up on the modern history of Starcraft. Would someone please tell me why Flash and Jaedong are considered for Bonjwa-ness? Don't get me wrong, I love both of them, but they haven't dominated long enough nor considerably enough in my opinion to be considered Bonjwas. They are VERY good players and would hand my ass to me on a silver (or gold) platter, but there is simply not enough evidence to support either one being crowned a Bonjwa. There is no Bonjwa right now and there hasn't been for some time. Best player in the world =/= Bonjwa. That's my two cents. I cheer for Jaedong, but this disrespects Flash's accomplishments.
I don't think Flash's contributions are more numerous, I just think he has more unique -- and winning -- builds than other current players (I'm sorry fantasy fans, his unique builds are way more unique but hardly more numerous than Flash's if only because he doesn't play as many important games/series). My point was their altering of the game itself is comparable to each other, but nothing compared to the bonjwas and that's why neither was considered bonjwas until Flash's dream run in 2010 -- which, as I said, is a completely weird aberration of how bonjwas rose.
Man, I remember when just saying bonjwa was a bannable offense. Good job, Flash.
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On May 28 2011 18:03 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Anyhow I think the article misses out on something that defined the term bonjwa. Let's exclude Flash from this and I'll address that later.
The separating factor between Boxer/Nada/Oov/Savior and other dominant players such as July and Jaedong is that they dominated through innovation. No other players have changed the game in a more fundamental way than those four, the domination was what came about because of their innovation. They not only dominated the game, but did so in a way that completely mystified fans and other players alike -- it wasn't an issue of how good, or successful they were, as these things were just side effects of their gamechanging ways.
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This is ironic because "bonjwa" was orginally a term used by July fans to describe his dominance =p
Anyway I was arguing that jaedong should be bonjwa even before flash rose to surpremacy and I still consider him one, afterall the only reliable measure of dominance is how much you win, and jaedong has been winning a lot more than savior ever did.
If people want to talk about "innovation" that mostly feels like after the fact rationalisation to me, but sure. How did jaedong changing pvz from the sunken based to style popular under savior to the mass unit style popular a year or two ago matter less than the defiler turtling zvt style perfected by savior?
Not to mention the current scourge rush to counter sair openings which is the basis on which all modern zvp is built as well as mid game muta switches vs templars are both more or less jaedongs inventions.
(July did a lot of lurker -> muta but it generally with different intentions, besides it's not like anyone never defiler turtled or went 3 hatch muta before savior either)
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The true, over-shadowed Kong Line is the most painful: to never be realized as a true Bonjwa, because of one man your equal.
Jaedong suffers as Second.
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On May 28 2011 18:43 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 18:03 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Anyhow I think the article misses out on something that defined the term bonjwa. Let's exclude Flash from this and I'll address that later.
The separating factor between Boxer/Nada/Oov/Savior and other dominant players such as July and Jaedong is that they dominated through innovation. No other players have changed the game in a more fundamental way than those four, the domination was what came about because of their innovation. They not only dominated the game, but did so in a way that completely mystified fans and other players alike -- it wasn't an issue of how good, or successful they were, as these things were just side effects of their gamechanging ways.
. This is ironic because "bonjwa" was orginally a term used by July fans to describe his dominance =p Anyway I was arguing that jaedong should be bonjwa even before flash rose to surpremacy and I still consider him one, afterall the only reliable measure of dominance is how much you win, and jaedong has been winning a lot more than savior ever did. If people want to talk about "innovation" that mostly feels like after the fact rationalisation to me, but sure. How did jaedong changing pvz from the sunken based to style popular under savior to the mass unit style popular a year or two ago matter less than the defiler turtling zvt style perfected by savior? Not to mention the current scourge rush to counter sair openings which is the basis on which all modern zvp is built as well as mid game muta switches vs templars are both more or less jaedongs inventions. (July did a lot of lurker -> muta but it generally with different intentions, besides it's not like anyone never defiler turtled or went 3 hatch muta before savior either)
Savior was a bonjwa because people were absolutely at a loss for how good he was and how much he changed ZvT and ZvP. He was so good he confused people with it. Jaedong just won a lot, and there's a big distinction. And if you're even slightly considering Jaedong has changed broodwar as much as Savior then you're insane. Every ZvT and ZvP is still built on Savior's basics, and Jaedong's new ZvP doesn't look so great if you ask me.
I'm not going to define every change the bonjwas did to verify what I said because frankly I am not well learned enough at BW or eloquent enough to do it justice.
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On May 28 2011 18:10 epi wrote:
Any bonjwa discussion that brings in numbers misses the point.
This post gets way too little attention. It may sound overly simple, but that's about it. If you have to go ahead and write a huge article about why someone should be considered a bonjwa and make up a number of insignificant statistics that no one cares about you're pretty much cementing that whoever you're arguing for is in fact not a bonjwa.
Semi-Final appearances? Wtf? Seriously, when has anyone ever cared about how often Ayrton Senna has gotten 3rd? Or even 2nd? Why not add quarter-final appearances to the list? Or qualifying at all? My comparison might be a bit off, but you get the drill.
For all his accomplishments Jaedong just never had that moment or time when people were just gazing united in awe at what he was doing. He never had that "Ok, that's it. He's Bonjwa." coming from even the sturdiest anti-fans.
On a side note I would say Jaedong was at his overall prime at the same time that Flash was and Flash beat him convincingly. Remember, Jaedong had his first dual finals appearance for example. They were both rising to new heights, but whatever Jaedong did, Flash got the better of him.
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On May 28 2011 17:44 HuskyMUDKIPZ wrote:
I love how people comment "Jaedong is/isn't a bonjwa" without reading the damn article. Very well written and definitely a very logical way of showing that he should be considered a bonjwa.
It doesnt matter what he says....this isnt something new...its not even something that wasnt long debated. Just because someone makes a new article and gives his opinion it doesnt mean sh*t because its just HIS oppinion no matter how fancy or how stats backed it is.
JD was great, still is great and like someone said is probably the best non bonjwa player ever.
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flash did beat jaedong, but i was pretty disappointed with the trilogy of flash > jaedong finals.not trying to take anything away from flash, but i wouldve liked something, eh, more conclusive? to settle the score between them
korea air osl was 3 games of cheese and 1 semi decent game which really wasnt very good either =/. it was even worse than hana bank which was an utter beatdown
bigfile was my favourite, but odd eye + 2x polaris =/. the fighting spirit game was really nice though, i think if it was 5x fighting spirit, things couldve been different (or not, who knows)
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On May 28 2011 18:15 fearus wrote:
to be fair Bisu should be more a bonjwa, if the most successful protoss isn't a bonjwa then we can conclude that bw is imba.
Except most A class protoss have better PvT than Bisu. It's not the race, he's just not good enough.
Flash is by far the best terran in all 3 matchups. So is Jaedong for zerg when he's at the top of his game.
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On May 28 2011 19:05 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 18:15 fearus wrote:
to be fair Bisu should be more a bonjwa, if the most successful protoss isn't a bonjwa then we can conclude that bw is imba. Except most A class protoss have better PvT than Bisu. It's not the race, he's just not good enough. Flash is by far the best terran in all 3 matchups. So is Jaedong for zerg when he's at the top of his game.
It depends on how you're talking. Relatively Oov had better TvZ than Flash and Savior had better ZvT than Jaedong for their era. Clearly they're not as good now but I think you have to define all greats by relation to their era.
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On May 28 2011 19:05 Legatus Lanius wrote:
flash did beat jaedong, but i was pretty disappointed with the trilogy of flash > jaedong finals.not trying to take anything away from flash, but i wouldve liked something, eh, more conclusive? to settle the score between them
korea air osl was 3 games of cheese and 1 semi decent game which really wasnt very good either =/. it was even worse than hana bank which was an utter beatdown
bigfile was my favourite, but odd eye + 2x polaris =/. the fighting spirit game was really nice though, i think if it was 5x fighting spirit, things couldve been different (or not, who knows)
Their best games were probably at WCG Korea and WCG Grand Finals.
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Can't really give someone the bonjwa title retroactively.
I don't see why it really matters though. As I've said many times, JD doesn't settle for bonjwa; he's going for GOAT.
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On May 28 2011 19:07 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 19:05 hypercube wrote:On May 28 2011 18:15 fearus wrote:
to be fair Bisu should be more a bonjwa, if the most successful protoss isn't a bonjwa then we can conclude that bw is imba. Except most A class protoss have better PvT than Bisu. It's not the race, he's just not good enough. Flash is by far the best terran in all 3 matchups. So is Jaedong for zerg when he's at the top of his game. It depends on how you're talking. Relatively Oov had better TvZ than Flash and Savior had better ZvT than Jaedong for their era. Clearly they're not as good now but I think you have to define all greats by relation to their era.
I meant among their contemporaries. Was Bisu ever considered the best PvT player at the time? Most of the time he wasn't even top 3. Stork, Best and Jangbi were better even in 2008/2009.
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On May 28 2011 19:11 Holgerius wrote:Can't really give someone the bonjwa title retroactively.
except for the majority of bonjwas...?
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On May 28 2011 19:11 Holgerius wrote:Can't really give someone the bonjwa title retroactively. I don't see why it really matters though. As I've said many times, JD doesn't settle for bonjwa; he's going for GOAT.
Really? We do for boxer, nada, and oov.
However, I think it a fundamental misunderstanding of the word to apply it to anyone but MJY.
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On May 28 2011 18:52 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 18:43 KlaCkoN wrote:On May 28 2011 18:03 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Anyhow I think the article misses out on something that defined the term bonjwa. Let's exclude Flash from this and I'll address that later.
The separating factor between Boxer/Nada/Oov/Savior and other dominant players such as July and Jaedong is that they dominated through innovation. No other players have changed the game in a more fundamental way than those four, the domination was what came about because of their innovation. They not only dominated the game, but did so in a way that completely mystified fans and other players alike -- it wasn't an issue of how good, or successful they were, as these things were just side effects of their gamechanging ways.
. This is ironic because "bonjwa" was orginally a term used by July fans to describe his dominance =p Anyway I was arguing that jaedong should be bonjwa even before flash rose to surpremacy and I still consider him one, afterall the only reliable measure of dominance is how much you win, and jaedong has been winning a lot more than savior ever did. If people want to talk about "innovation" that mostly feels like after the fact rationalisation to me, but sure. How did jaedong changing pvz from the sunken based to style popular under savior to the mass unit style popular a year or two ago matter less than the defiler turtling zvt style perfected by savior? Not to mention the current scourge rush to counter sair openings which is the basis on which all modern zvp is built as well as mid game muta switches vs templars are both more or less jaedongs inventions. (July did a lot of lurker -> muta but it generally with different intentions, besides it's not like anyone never defiler turtled or went 3 hatch muta before savior either) Savior was a bonjwa because people were absolutely at a loss for how good he was and how much he changed ZvT and ZvP. He was so good he confused people with it. Jaedong just won a lot, and there's a big distinction. And if you're even slightly considering Jaedong has changed broodwar as much as Savior then you're insane. Every ZvT and ZvP is still built on Savior's basics, and Jaedong's new ZvP doesn't look so great if you ask me. I'm not going to define every change the bonjwas did to verify what I said because frankly I am not well learned enough at BW or eloquent enough to do it justice.
Well then I'm insane :p I watched most of saviors games ever since he went for 3 hat before pool vs oov on into the darkness while still called ipx. He was awesome we all agree on that but most of what he did had been done before, in one form or another, he was just a lot better at it. (Sound familiar?) I still think his main long term contribution was defiler micro. And how is zvp today based on how savior played it? Savior zvp was mostly ´do some damage with mutal -> sunken/spore/lurker turtle until ultras´. Jaedongs scourge -> mass hydra - > mass hydraling lurker style was the direct opposite of that. And with it he "solved" the sair DT problem that shut down saviors original style. Very modern zvp looks different again sure but that's not very relevant
Ugh I dunnu, details are definitely going to bite me in the ass but I really do think savior in particular is massively over romantisised on tl and I disagree when people say that jaedong has not influenced the game as much as him.
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For me, you can't have two bonjwa's at the same time. In fact, its against the very definition of bonjwa.
If you accept this criteria you gotta argue that time period before flash came into Top 2 and JD was threatening. But i doubt thats long enough and the titles aren't there.
Sorry JD.
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after savior's match-fixing scandal, the term 'bonjwa' is almost dead in korean starcraft community. and flash is commonly considered as god (of starcraft) rather than bonjwa, because his achievements in 2010 was far more dominating than any other bonjwa had.
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It comes down to a unique situation, where the two best players in the world rise up at about the same time, where they are both high up on a massive platform in front of the masses. The two players battle it out, with gameplay that is so superior to those that have come before them. They aren't trailblazers. They aren't grand inventors with radically new ideas that forever change how broodwar is played. They are the kind of players who just play with pure brilliance and machine-like mechanics that make them appear to be untouchable. They put fear into their opponent by stepping into the booth. They give you the sense that, if you do not play an absolutely perfect game, you will lose. No player has ever had that type of aura around them. Flash is called "God" for a reason.
At a time where both of these players were at their most fierce, they played in three consecutive finals. Both were put on stage in front of the whole world, and everyone knew that the winner would be, undoubtedly, the best player to have played the game. They are both superior in mechanics and overall game understanding, thanks to those that had come before them and layed the groundwork. They are the product of 12 years of study and execution. They are engineered to be the best possible players of the game. Flash makes the most insane run, referred to as his "Dream year", taking out Jaedong in both MSL finals and an OSL final. Flash comes out on top looking unbeatable. He is different, in that he is absolutely the most dominating player to have played, not because of his strategies, maneuvering, tactics, or builds. It is because he just IS the best.
Unfortunately for Jaedong, he was built to combat with one Flash for the ultimate player. This era's bonjwa was not to be made possible by the insanely creative builds of a boxer, or the brilliant tactfulness of an oov, the genius game play of a NaDa, or a lone soldier forging a trail for an entire race like saviOr did. This era's bonjwa was to be determined by taking every chapter from the book written by the greats of past times, and using all of the information and knowledge to create the perfect player.
That player is Flash. Not Jaedong.
There can only be one.
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On May 28 2011 18:15 fearus wrote:
to be fair Bisu should be more a bonjwa, if the most successful protoss isn't a bonjwa then we can conclude that bw is imba.
Nothing to do with race imbalance. Stork, Best, and Jangbi at various times in their careers have shown it is possible to dominate PvT. Bisu has shown that it is possible to dominate PvZ. The problem is that no one protoss player has been able to dominate all matchups over a long period of time the way the bonjwas did. Bisu would probably have been crowned a bonjwa had he not lost to Mind in the GOM Season 3 MSL and gone into a hard slump afterwards. There is no affirmative action for handing out bonjwa titles. Blame the players, not the race they play.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Jaezong is bad at starcfarft. Lose to noob Zerio.
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10387 Posts
On May 28 2011 19:05 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 18:15 fearus wrote:
to be fair Bisu should be more a bonjwa, if the most successful protoss isn't a bonjwa then we can conclude that bw is imba. Except most A class protoss have better PvT than Bisu. It's not the race, he's just not good enough. Flash is by far the best terran in all 3 matchups. So is Jaedong for zerg when he's at the top of his game.
Yep everyone's soooo much better at PvT than Bisu, when he currently holds the highest PvT ELO atm along w/ the third highest peak PvT ELO of all time.. Bisu's periods of dominance are just too short for him to be legitly considered bonjwa :\
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Imo... I think Jaedong should be one of the bonjwas a long with Bisu, Jaedong is clearly the best Zerg in the world. a long with Bisu being the best Protoss in the world. In my book they are bonjwas though they don't show it.... Jaedong and Bisu were only dominating for a short time...
Flash is the best Terran in the world, Jaedong is the best Zerg in the world and Bisu is the best Protoss in the world.
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which a class pvters are better than bisu?
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On May 28 2011 19:37 Roffles wrote:
Jaezong is bad at starcfarft. Lose to noob Zerio.
That some kind hybrid of ZerO and Zenio?
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On May 28 2011 17:25 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 17:22 moopie wrote:
He would have been considered one... if it wasn't for Flash. :3 considered? if it weren't for flash he would most definitely be crowned Bonjwa.
Bonjwa means unrivaled. Considering Jaedong and Flash have been butting heads against one another for the longest time, why do you think this conversation always popped up in the first place?
Why the heck you think fomos had to come up with the title "God" just so Flash could have something rather than nothing? As long as no one is dominating everything for a set period of time the term Bonjwa doesn't have the same meaning.
I don't know why this discussion is being brought back to the forefront after ZerO knocked him out. ZvZ is a bitch for Jaedong once again. I was surprised when I saw how lopsided the Liquibet was for Jaedong. I thought it would be 54-46 at the very least.
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Oh if only the Korean community had stuck with bonjwa being only for SaviOr rather than retroactively adding the old greats to the list, then we wouldn't have to have these discussions at all.
Personally I would throw in the argument that SaviOr and Bisu are the most impressive players in BW history, SaviOr for making ZvT look imbalanced in favour of Zerg and Bisu for making PvZ look imbalanced in favour of Protoss.
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Power Outage and him losing to Zero is not helping his case at all, although one of those isn't a very solid point.
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On May 28 2011 20:10 Goragoth wrote:
Oh if only the Korean community had stuck with bonjwa being only for SaviOr rather than retroactively adding the old greats to the list, then we wouldn't have to have these discussions at all.
Personally I would throw in the argument that SaviOr and Bisu are the most impressive players in BW history, SaviOr for making ZvT look imbalanced in favour of Zerg and Bisu for making PvZ look imbalanced in favour of Protoss.
flash made TvT imbalanced in favour of flash
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On May 28 2011 20:17 thoradycus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 20:10 Goragoth wrote:
Oh if only the Korean community had stuck with bonjwa being only for SaviOr rather than retroactively adding the old greats to the list, then we wouldn't have to have these discussions at all.
Personally I would throw in the argument that SaviOr and Bisu are the most impressive players in BW history, SaviOr for making ZvT look imbalanced in favour of Zerg and Bisu for making PvZ look imbalanced in favour of Protoss. flash made TvT imbalanced in favour of flash
He made TvP on Katrina imbalanced in favor of T!
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From the article...
The split between the two could be generally resolved by assigning the basic definition as that of the South Korean community and the more complicated definition as that belonging to the Western community. Some Westerners will even fall back to the position that nobody from the West should use the term or attempt to apply it to anyone else, that instead only the South Koreans can agree on who a bonjwa is. Personally I'm of the opinion that terms can mean different things to different people and that this is a useful term for differentiating between the really good players and the truly great players. As a result I choose to use it in this article and apply it according to my own definitions.
So your point is that under your own definition, which you admit is different to the definition of Koreans, JD is bonjwa? Then why use a Korean term at all?
Because all terms mean different things to different people, I'm going to define "donkey" as the best current zerg.
JD is a donkey.
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I thought we were done with these bonjwa threads. If people can't agree on it, then he isn't. Jaedong has been my favorite player ever since his royal road, but I don't feel the need to call him a bonjwa when he isn't.
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On May 28 2011 20:36 raviy wrote:From the article... Show nested quote +The split between the two could be generally resolved by assigning the basic definition as that of the South Korean community and the more complicated definition as that belonging to the Western community. Some Westerners will even fall back to the position that nobody from the West should use the term or attempt to apply it to anyone else, that instead only the South Koreans can agree on who a bonjwa is. Personally I'm of the opinion that terms can mean different things to different people and that this is a useful term for differentiating between the really good players and the truly great players. As a result I choose to use it in this article and apply it according to my own definitions. So your point is that under your own definition, which you admit is different to the definition of Koreans, JD is bonjwa? Then why use a Korean term at all? Because all terms mean different things to different people, I'm going to define "donkey" as the best current zerg. JD is a donkey.
lmao.... All hail the donkey!
Ahhhhh~~~!!!!! Dooooonnnnnkeeeeeyyyyyyyyyy Plaaaaguuuuuuuu!!!
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pretty ridiculous debate
when jaedong has more final wins than 3 of the 4 bonjwas
he has also been consistent, managing a winning ratio over 65% for 4 years
while most of the bonjwas shined for 1 ~ 2 years and had a heavy drop in their ratio (except for nada of course)
jaedong's career>most bonjwas
pretty much every bonjwa except nada
no one in the korean community recognizes flash as a bonjwa
im perplexed that the foreign community would just recognize flash as a bonjwa
when "bonjwa" itself is a korean term in the first place
I think the word bonjwa should no longer be used and flash and jaedong both exceeded
"bonjwa"
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On May 28 2011 19:44 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 19:05 hypercube wrote:On May 28 2011 18:15 fearus wrote:
to be fair Bisu should be more a bonjwa, if the most successful protoss isn't a bonjwa then we can conclude that bw is imba. Except most A class protoss have better PvT than Bisu. It's not the race, he's just not good enough. Flash is by far the best terran in all 3 matchups. So is Jaedong for zerg when he's at the top of his game. Yep everyone's soooo much better at PvT than Bisu, when he currently holds the highest PvT ELO atm along w/ the third highest peak PvT ELO of all time.. Bisu's periods of dominance are just too short for him to be legitly considered bonjwa :\
His PvT did suck back when he lost to Mind, or at the very least sucked for the level of player he was. It's fluctuated between the best and mediocre throughout his career and you can definitely say Bisu has never had consistently dominant PvT.
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On May 28 2011 20:43 gnr9292 wrote:
pretty ridiculous debate
when jaedong has more final wins than 3 of the 4 bonjwas
he has also been consistent managing winning ratio over 65% for 4 years
while most of the bonjwas shined for 1 ~ 2 years and had a heavy drop in their ratio (except for nada of course)
jaedong's career>most bonjwas
pretty much every bonjwa except nada
no one in the korean community recognizes flash as a bonjwa
im perplexed that the foreign community would just recognize flash as a bonjwa
when "bonjwa" itself is a korean term in the first place
I think the word bonjwa should no longer be used and flash and jaedong both exceeded
"bonjwa"
Source?
He was crowned Bonjwa by the Korean community...
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On May 28 2011 19:44 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 19:05 hypercube wrote:On May 28 2011 18:15 fearus wrote:
to be fair Bisu should be more a bonjwa, if the most successful protoss isn't a bonjwa then we can conclude that bw is imba. Except most A class protoss have better PvT than Bisu. It's not the race, he's just not good enough. Flash is by far the best terran in all 3 matchups. So is Jaedong for zerg when he's at the top of his game. Yep everyone's soooo much better at PvT than Bisu, when he currently holds the highest PvT ELO atm along w/ the third highest peak PvT ELO of all time.. Bisu's periods of dominance are just too short for him to be legitly considered bonjwa :\
Sorry to engage in this tangential discussion, but the problem I have with the Elo argument for Bisu's PvT is this. Imagine Zero is showing great success in ZvT in Proleague but gets eliminated from a Starleague in (previously) typical fashion by losing two ZvZs. He continues to do well in Proleague, winning most of his ZvTs, even managing a win against Flash (before losing two more rather soundly). Jaedong, despite showing similar success, unfortunately meets Light in that Starleague finals and loses 0-3, and meets him a few more times in Proleague and loses some more. Suddenly Jaedong's ZvT Elo has fallen below Zero's. Is Zero the better ZvT player despite having the good fortune of not having to play Light, his teammate, that only has the second-best TvZ in the world but is still an extreme outlier? I wonder.
The good, impartial thing about Elo in other venues is that the pool of players you're competing with is everyone but yourself. However, in BW, that pool is everyone but yourself and your teammates, especially when you've had no Starleague success for two straight years and have not had to endure any teamkills.
Bisu's PvT is statistically great, and it may very well be the current best in BW, especially with Stork's struggles. I wouldn't go so far as that other guy, but I still just have lingering doubts. He's 1-4 against Flash in the last year and doesn't even have to face Fantasy. Fantasy may not be as good as Flash, but he's still second-best by a huge margin. And most of us should remember what happened in Bisu and Fantasy's last Bo5. If Bisu can't beat Flash consistently, I at least want to see him have to beat Fantasy. Before that, it's hard for me to accept that his PvT is qualitatively better than the Elo rating's runners-up.
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On May 28 2011 20:50 Mooncat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 20:43 gnr9292 wrote:
pretty ridiculous debate
when jaedong has more final wins than 3 of the 4 bonjwas
he has also been consistent managing winning ratio over 65% for 4 years
while most of the bonjwas shined for 1 ~ 2 years and had a heavy drop in their ratio (except for nada of course)
jaedong's career>most bonjwas
pretty much every bonjwa except nada
no one in the korean community recognizes flash as a bonjwa
im perplexed that the foreign community would just recognize flash as a bonjwa
when "bonjwa" itself is a korean term in the first place
I think the word bonjwa should no longer be used and flash and jaedong both exceeded
"bonjwa" Source? He was crowned Bonjwa by the Korean community...
He was never crowned by the korean community
I don't even know where you got that information
source?
Im korean and I spend much more time on fomos.kr than team liquid
and no sources indicate he was crowned bonjwa
bonjwa isn't even an official thing
there is still debates going on whether if jaedong and flash is bonjwa
if neither of them are bonjwa
I think the term is obsolete now and they both exceeded this bonjwa crap
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On May 28 2011 20:55 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 19:44 ArvickHero wrote:On May 28 2011 19:05 hypercube wrote:On May 28 2011 18:15 fearus wrote:
to be fair Bisu should be more a bonjwa, if the most successful protoss isn't a bonjwa then we can conclude that bw is imba. Except most A class protoss have better PvT than Bisu. It's not the race, he's just not good enough. Flash is by far the best terran in all 3 matchups. So is Jaedong for zerg when he's at the top of his game. Yep everyone's soooo much better at PvT than Bisu, when he currently holds the highest PvT ELO atm along w/ the third highest peak PvT ELO of all time.. Bisu's periods of dominance are just too short for him to be legitly considered bonjwa :\ Sorry to engage in this tangential discussion, but the problem I have with the Elo argument for Bisu's PvT is this. Imagine Zero is showing great success in ZvT in Proleague but gets eliminated from a Starleague in (previously) typical fashion by losing two ZvZs. He continues to do well in Proleague, winning most of his ZvTs, even managing a win against Flash (before losing two more rather soundly). Jaedong, despite showing similar success, unfortunately meets Light in that Starleague finals and loses 0-3, and meets him a few more times in Proleague and loses some more. Suddenly Jaedong's ZvT Elo has fallen below Zero's. Is Zero the better ZvT player despite having the good fortune of not having to play Light, his teammate, that only has the second-best TvZ in the world but is still an extreme outlier? I wonder. The good, impartial thing about Elo in other venues is that the pool of players you're competing with is everyone but yourself. However, in BW, that pool is everyone but yourself and your teammates, especially when you've had no Starleague success for two straight years and have not had to endure any teamkills. Bisu's PvT is statistically great, and it may very well be the current best in BW, especially with Stork's struggles. I wouldn't go so far as that other guy, but I still just have lingering doubts. He's 1-4 against Flash in the last year and doesn't even have to face Fantasy. Fantasy may not be as good as Flash, but he's still second-best by a huge margin. And most of us should remember what happened in Bisu and Fantasy's last Bo5. If Bisu can't beat Flash consistently, I at least want to see him have to beat Fantasy. Before that, it's hard for me to accept that his PvT is qualitatively better than the Elo rating's runners-up.
It was ForGG, and teamkills usually produce silly results just like that 0-3.
On May 28 2011 21:03 gnr9292 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 20:50 Mooncat wrote:On May 28 2011 20:43 gnr9292 wrote:
pretty ridiculous debate
when jaedong has more final wins than 3 of the 4 bonjwas
he has also been consistent managing winning ratio over 65% for 4 years
while most of the bonjwas shined for 1 ~ 2 years and had a heavy drop in their ratio (except for nada of course)
jaedong's career>most bonjwas
pretty much every bonjwa except nada
no one in the korean community recognizes flash as a bonjwa
im perplexed that the foreign community would just recognize flash as a bonjwa
when "bonjwa" itself is a korean term in the first place
I think the word bonjwa should no longer be used and flash and jaedong both exceeded
"bonjwa" Source? He was crowned Bonjwa by the Korean community... He was never crowned by the korean community I don't even know where you got that information Im korean and I spend much more time on fomos.kr than team liquid and no sources indicate he was crowned bonjwa bonjwa isn't even an official thing there is still debates going on whether if jaedong and flash is bonjwa if neither of them are bonjwa I think the term is obsolete now and they both exceeded this bonjwa crap
Flash was officially crowned by koreans as a bonjwa after he defeated JD in Korean Air OSL S2.
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On May 28 2011 21:03 gnr9292 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 20:50 Mooncat wrote:On May 28 2011 20:43 gnr9292 wrote:
pretty ridiculous debate
when jaedong has more final wins than 3 of the 4 bonjwas
he has also been consistent managing winning ratio over 65% for 4 years
while most of the bonjwas shined for 1 ~ 2 years and had a heavy drop in their ratio (except for nada of course)
jaedong's career>most bonjwas
pretty much every bonjwa except nada
no one in the korean community recognizes flash as a bonjwa
im perplexed that the foreign community would just recognize flash as a bonjwa
when "bonjwa" itself is a korean term in the first place
I think the word bonjwa should no longer be used and flash and jaedong both exceeded
"bonjwa" Source? He was crowned Bonjwa by the Korean community... He was never crowned by the korean community I don't even know where you got that information Im korean and I spend much more time on fomos.kr than team liquid and no sources indicate he was crowned bonjwa bonjwa isn't even an official thing there is still debates going on whether if jaedong and flash is bonjwa if neither of them are bonjwa I think the term is obsolete now and they both exceeded this bonjwa crap
There are interviews, like the one I quoted in my signature, commentators have been calling him bonjwa and/or above bonjwa for a long time, etc.
So unless you can offer any sort of proof, which I highly doubt, you're nothing but trolling.
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On May 28 2011 21:05 NicksonReyes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 20:55 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:On May 28 2011 19:44 ArvickHero wrote:On May 28 2011 19:05 hypercube wrote:On May 28 2011 18:15 fearus wrote:
to be fair Bisu should be more a bonjwa, if the most successful protoss isn't a bonjwa then we can conclude that bw is imba. Except most A class protoss have better PvT than Bisu. It's not the race, he's just not good enough. Flash is by far the best terran in all 3 matchups. So is Jaedong for zerg when he's at the top of his game. Yep everyone's soooo much better at PvT than Bisu, when he currently holds the highest PvT ELO atm along w/ the third highest peak PvT ELO of all time.. Bisu's periods of dominance are just too short for him to be legitly considered bonjwa :\ Sorry to engage in this tangential discussion, but the problem I have with the Elo argument for Bisu's PvT is this. Imagine Zero is showing great success in ZvT in Proleague but gets eliminated from a Starleague in (previously) typical fashion by losing two ZvZs. He continues to do well in Proleague, winning most of his ZvTs, even managing a win against Flash (before losing two more rather soundly). Jaedong, despite showing similar success, unfortunately meets Light in that Starleague finals and loses 0-3, and meets him a few more times in Proleague and loses some more. Suddenly Jaedong's ZvT Elo has fallen below Zero's. Is Zero the better ZvT player despite having the good fortune of not having to play Light, his teammate, that only has the second-best TvZ in the world but is still an extreme outlier? I wonder. The good, impartial thing about Elo in other venues is that the pool of players you're competing with is everyone but yourself. However, in BW, that pool is everyone but yourself and your teammates, especially when you've had no Starleague success for two straight years and have not had to endure any teamkills. Bisu's PvT is statistically great, and it may very well be the current best in BW, especially with Stork's struggles. I wouldn't go so far as that other guy, but I still just have lingering doubts. He's 1-4 against Flash in the last year and doesn't even have to face Fantasy. Fantasy may not be as good as Flash, but he's still second-best by a huge margin. And most of us should remember what happened in Bisu and Fantasy's last Bo5. If Bisu can't beat Flash consistently, I at least want to see him have to beat Fantasy. Before that, it's hard for me to accept that his PvT is qualitatively better than the Elo rating's runners-up. It was ForGG, and teamkills usually produce silly results just like that 0-3. Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 21:03 gnr9292 wrote:On May 28 2011 20:50 Mooncat wrote:On May 28 2011 20:43 gnr9292 wrote:
pretty ridiculous debate
when jaedong has more final wins than 3 of the 4 bonjwas
he has also been consistent managing winning ratio over 65% for 4 years
while most of the bonjwas shined for 1 ~ 2 years and had a heavy drop in their ratio (except for nada of course)
jaedong's career>most bonjwas
pretty much every bonjwa except nada
no one in the korean community recognizes flash as a bonjwa
im perplexed that the foreign community would just recognize flash as a bonjwa
when "bonjwa" itself is a korean term in the first place
I think the word bonjwa should no longer be used and flash and jaedong both exceeded
"bonjwa" Source? He was crowned Bonjwa by the Korean community... He was never crowned by the korean community I don't even know where you got that information Im korean and I spend much more time on fomos.kr than team liquid and no sources indicate he was crowned bonjwa bonjwa isn't even an official thing there is still debates going on whether if jaedong and flash is bonjwa if neither of them are bonjwa I think the term is obsolete now and they both exceeded this bonjwa crap Flash was officially crowned as a bonjwa after he defeated JD in Korean Air OSL S2.
Um, he wasn't referencing actual events that happened like the Arenal MSL finals, that entire thing was a hypothetical.
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Japan11286 Posts
For me the the title, 'bonjwa' only really fits savior. He is the definition of bonjwa, the unparalleled ZvT despite hostile maps and zerg-killers everywhere, a whole year of destroying the scene, sole domination at the top and reinventing his race to further his reign.
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Edit: I deleted this post.
I'm just still a little bitter over how Savior is worshipped around here (including with the recent article) when I feel he was not only a horrible person who almost killed BW, but also a generally overrated player. Was he great? Yes. Was he the best? He might not even be in the top five. He's certainly not in the top three.
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This would have been easier to consider if he didn't just get punched out of the MSL (especially since there is no OSL this season).
I like Jaedong, but he's no bonjwa... There used to be a million threads like this until I think people started getting banned for it.
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On May 28 2011 21:26 SimonB wrote:
Edit: I deleted this post.
I'm just still a little bitter over how Savior is worshipped around here (including with the recent article) when I feel he was not only a horrible person who almost killed BW, but also a generally overrated player. Was he great? Yes. Was he the best? He might not even be in the top five. He's certainly not in the top three.
hey thanks, now i know never to read anything you post ever again
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On May 28 2011 21:07 Mooncat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 21:03 gnr9292 wrote:On May 28 2011 20:50 Mooncat wrote:On May 28 2011 20:43 gnr9292 wrote:
pretty ridiculous debate
when jaedong has more final wins than 3 of the 4 bonjwas
he has also been consistent managing winning ratio over 65% for 4 years
while most of the bonjwas shined for 1 ~ 2 years and had a heavy drop in their ratio (except for nada of course)
jaedong's career>most bonjwas
pretty much every bonjwa except nada
no one in the korean community recognizes flash as a bonjwa
im perplexed that the foreign community would just recognize flash as a bonjwa
when "bonjwa" itself is a korean term in the first place
I think the word bonjwa should no longer be used and flash and jaedong both exceeded
"bonjwa" Source? He was crowned Bonjwa by the Korean community... He was never crowned by the korean community I don't even know where you got that information Im korean and I spend much more time on fomos.kr than team liquid and no sources indicate he was crowned bonjwa bonjwa isn't even an official thing there is still debates going on whether if jaedong and flash is bonjwa if neither of them are bonjwa I think the term is obsolete now and they both exceeded this bonjwa crap There are interviews, like the one I quoted in my signature, commentators have been calling him bonjwa and/or above bonjwa for a long time, etc. So unless you can offer any sort of proof, which I highly doubt, you're nothing but trolling.
calm down flash fan, you dont have do just assume im trolling
if you had any idea how to read korean
and went on any korean starcraft community site like fomos or ygosu
you would find out that "bonjwa" is a dead term
flash isnt considered bonjwa
bonjwa stopped at boxer nada savior iloovoov
commentators say a lot of things
one statement said by one commentator doesnt reflect the korean community's perspective
a commentator also previously said jaedong exceeded bonjwaism
I have sources just look at a starcraft korean community
are you gonna understand it?
would you believe me if I translated some of the debates?
dont make idiotic assumptions if you have no apparent idea about any of the korean communities
even the translations here are often erroneous
the foreign community is the only community that recognizes flash as bonjwa
doesn't really mean much to the korean scene
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make sure you dont translate the fomos ones LOL
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He is a Demi-Bonjwa like July and Bisu Imo.
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For me there are only 2 Bonjwa oov and savior. I'm too lazy to explain why though.
Edit: Their nicknames explain it very well, Cheater/Monster Terran and The Maestro/Ma Bonjwa 
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I believe Jaedong is the second-best player in history (after Flash). Especially with the competition being alot more fierce today than it was before. Both of them are tons better than any of the bonjwas ever was or could have been.
I recall commentators being hesitant to call Flash a bonjwa, because they feel that he's beyond that, and deserve to be ranked higher. I also recall Jaedong getting the same remarks from time to time in LR report translations.
No one but the blindest fanboy would regard Savior as being even close to Jaedong's skill-level.
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On May 28 2011 21:33 gnr9292 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 21:07 Mooncat wrote:On May 28 2011 21:03 gnr9292 wrote:On May 28 2011 20:50 Mooncat wrote:On May 28 2011 20:43 gnr9292 wrote:
pretty ridiculous debate
when jaedong has more final wins than 3 of the 4 bonjwas
he has also been consistent managing winning ratio over 65% for 4 years
while most of the bonjwas shined for 1 ~ 2 years and had a heavy drop in their ratio (except for nada of course)
jaedong's career>most bonjwas
pretty much every bonjwa except nada
no one in the korean community recognizes flash as a bonjwa
im perplexed that the foreign community would just recognize flash as a bonjwa
when "bonjwa" itself is a korean term in the first place
I think the word bonjwa should no longer be used and flash and jaedong both exceeded
"bonjwa" Source? He was crowned Bonjwa by the Korean community... He was never crowned by the korean community I don't even know where you got that information Im korean and I spend much more time on fomos.kr than team liquid and no sources indicate he was crowned bonjwa bonjwa isn't even an official thing there is still debates going on whether if jaedong and flash is bonjwa if neither of them are bonjwa I think the term is obsolete now and they both exceeded this bonjwa crap There are interviews, like the one I quoted in my signature, commentators have been calling him bonjwa and/or above bonjwa for a long time, etc. So unless you can offer any sort of proof, which I highly doubt, you're nothing but trolling. calm down flash fan, you dont have do just assume im trolling if you had any idea how to read korean and went on any korean starcraft community site like fomos or ygosu you would find out that "bonjwa" is a dead term flash isnt considered bonjwa bonjwa stopped at boxer nada savior iloovoov commentators say a lot of things one statement said by one commentator doesnt reflect the korean community's perspective a commentator also previously said jaedong exceeded bonjwaism I have sources just look at a starcraft korean community are you gonna understand it? would you believe me if I translated some of the debates? dont make idiotic assumptions if you have no apparent idea about any of the korean communities even the translations here are often erroneous the foreign community is the only community that recognizes flash as bonjwa doesn't really mean much to the korean scene
Go ahead and translate something relevant if you want. If you're spreading bullshit there are enough Korean-speaking people here to point it out.
My "idiotic" assumption that you're just trolling is to be expected when someone with your kind of profile and post count starts randomly making claims without sources or proof whatsoever.
For all I know you might not even be Korean. So either provide sources for your claims or just shut up please. Thx.
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I think that everything has a cap including the skill cap of BW and the capability of reaching that cap. While Flash and JD were ahead of their time at some point, I think others are nearing the cap as well, which makes competition a whole lot more closer and harder to not just be the best but to stay at the top.
We are probably at a stage where the term "bonjwa" is the toughest to reach at this point and probably has more meaning than ever before.
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I think it's safe to say that both Jaedong and Flash are bonjwas. Just because they aren't oldschool like the others doesn't mean they should have even higher requirements put on them.
They are probably the most individually skilled players to ever touch the game (game evolves, invididual skill necessary increases). Although you have to put individual skill in relation to the state of the metagame, they are still the best (~08-11) and have been so for a long time.
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On May 28 2011 17:33 cybertopo wrote:
Seems like this article is: "oh, Jaedong is starting to fade away, poor thing, let's make him a bonjwa".
And he isn't.
the dong doesn't fade, he rests
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On May 28 2011 21:49 Demand2k wrote:
No one but the blindest fanboy would regard Savior as being even close to Jaedong's skill-level.
Not in absolute terms no, but SaviOr is the only Zerg in BW history to outshine his Terran rival, and even did so on maps that were actively hostile towards Zergs. That counts for a lot.
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how bout we all live happily together and title both flash and jd bonjwas yah?
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Bonjwa is just a stupid nickname given to JulyZerg and then used to describe sAviOr at his peak. The word was then retroactively bestowed upon BoxeR, NaDa and iloveoov. It is just a popularity contest and it has nothing to do with achievements or innovation.
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If it was a popularity contest Yellow would be bonjwa, so you're actually completely wrong.
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Bonjwa would be someone so godly that has dominated/or was THE best at his time.
I'm not talking about a year, I am talking about a lengthy career time period.
Ofc it requires some accomplishments but also, that special something that makes the player very special and stand out among others, a feeling of 'How the hell does anyone beat him?'
So JD and Flash both qualify to be a bonjwa somewhat, but recent losses here and there and resurgence of many good players (although at a lower level) makes the gap smaller compared to the past.
Also, you can't have 2 bonjwas at once. bonjwa is simply someone who is the best, and how is it possible for 2 to be the best? And lets say Flash wins the upcoming final, would that make him a bonjwa? don't think so. Can JD beat Flash in any type of bo3,bo5 or ace game match up? Yes, with good enough chance. So, as of now, both of them can't be called bonjwa, and there is a reason why no Koreans call them bonjwa, since it is strictly (but similar) different from 'god' or 'cho gosu'.
Maybe if JD falls and Flash keeps his high standards, maybe.
btw, I am Korean, so I know how to define bonjwa from Korean perspective.
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I think I read somewhere that the koreans labeled Jaedong as a bonjwa along with Flash. Not sure though, might be wrong..
Jaedong should've definitely be a bonjwa. If it wasn't for Flash, he probably would've been the best player of all time. (Skill wise)
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On May 28 2011 22:18 ExceeD_DreaM wrote:
Bonjwa would be someone so godly that has dominated/or was THE best at his time.
I'm not talking about a year, I am talking about a lengthy career time period.
Ofc it requires some accomplishments but also, that special something that makes the player very special and stand out among others, a feeling of 'How the hell does anyone beat him?'
So JD and Flash both qualify to be a bonjwa somewhat, but recent losses here and there and resurgence of many good players (although at a lower level) makes the gap smaller compared to the past.
Also, you can't have 2 bonjwas at once. bonjwa is simply someone who is the best, and how is it possible for 2 to be the best? And lets say Flash wins the upcoming final, would that make him a bonjwa? don't think so. Can JD beat Flash in any type of bo3,bo5 or ace game match up? Yes, with good enough chance. So, as of now, both of them can't be called bonjwa, and there is a reason why no Koreans call them bonjwa, since it is strictly (but similar) different from 'god' or 'cho gosu'.
Maybe if JD falls and Flash keeps his high standards, maybe.
btw, I am Korean, so I know how to define bonjwa from Korean perspective.
Flash already did this last year by besting Jaedong in two finals at the same time, though? That was the entire reason he was exalted. 3 straight finals beatdowns is pretty conclusive.
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On May 28 2011 22:04 Goragoth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 21:49 Demand2k wrote:
No one but the blindest fanboy would regard Savior as being even close to Jaedong's skill-level.
Not in absolute terms no, but SaviOr is the only Zerg in BW history to outshine his Terran rival, and even did so on maps that were actively hostile towards Zergs. That counts for a lot.
Lol that's a pretty arbitrary metric though. Jaedong has more titles than savior and has been preforming at a top level for way longer than he did. Let's ignore longevity and success number and say Savior > Jaedong because savior beat his Terran rivals? I dunno....I think a lot of people here may be new users who forget what Jaedong did from late 2007 to 2009. The guy was absolutely unstoppable, and even last year he was a complete beast. He would have basically swept everything if it wasn't for flash.
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On May 28 2011 22:18 ExceeD_DreaM wrote:
Bonjwa would be someone so godly that has dominated/or was THE best at his time.
I'm not talking about a year, I am talking about a lengthy career time period.
Ofc it requires some accomplishments but also, that special something that makes the player very special and stand out among others, a feeling of 'How the hell does anyone beat him?'
So JD and Flash both qualify to be a bonjwa somewhat, but recent losses here and there and resurgence of many good players (although at a lower level) makes the gap smaller compared to the past.
Also, you can't have 2 bonjwas at once. bonjwa is simply someone who is the best, and how is it possible for 2 to be the best? And lets say Flash wins the upcoming final, would that make him a bonjwa? don't think so. Can JD beat Flash in any type of bo3,bo5 or ace game match up? Yes, with good enough chance. So, as of now, both of them can't be called bonjwa, and there is a reason why no Koreans call them bonjwa, since it is strictly (but similar) different from 'god' or 'cho gosu'.
Maybe if JD falls and Flash keeps his high standards, maybe.
btw, I am Korean, so I know how to define bonjwa from Korean perspective.
That's basically what Jaedong was 2008-2009 though. There was no1 who could stand in his way back then, and it was at a time he was enjoying a positive win rate against Bisu, who was considered the Zerg killer. Flash was slumping and Stork is Stork so yea, Jaedong was at the very top, undisputed.
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On May 28 2011 22:04 CanucksJC wrote:how bout we all live happily together and title both flash and jd bonjwas yah?
The outrage! p;
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On May 28 2011 22:04 CanucksJC wrote:how bout we all live happily together and title both flash and jd bonjwas yah?
That kind of placation would just be disingenuous.
On May 28 2011 22:18 ExceeD_DreaM wrote:
Bonjwa would be someone so godly that has dominated/or was THE best at his time.
I'm not talking about a year, I am talking about a lengthy career time period.
Ofc it requires some accomplishments but also, that special something that makes the player very special and stand out among others, a feeling of 'How the hell does anyone beat him?'
[Question] How to beat Flash?
[SPL spoiler] Who will end Flash's TvT streak?
Is it possible flash makes a 90% winning record?
Flash's Last 20 games
Who Might Stop Flash in OSL?
How is Flash doing so well?
How to beat Flash: Commentator Edition.
How Protoss can beat Flash
Is Flash really invincible?
Introducing the "god" line.
So JD and Flash both qualify to be a bonjwa somewhat, but recent losses here and there and resurgence of many good players (although at a lower level) makes the gap smaller compared to the past.
Also, you can't have 2 bonjwas at once. bonjwa is simply someone who is the best, and how is it possible for 2 to be the best? And lets say Flash wins the upcoming final, would that make him a bonjwa? don't think so. Can JD beat Flash in any type of bo3,bo5 or ace game match up? Yes, with good enough chance. So, as of now, both of them can't be called bonjwa, and there is a reason why no Koreans call them bonjwa, since it is strictly (but similar) different from 'god' or 'cho gosu'.
Maybe if JD falls and Flash keeps his high standards, maybe.
btw, I am Korean, so I know how to define bonjwa from Korean perspective.
What more did Flash need to do in 2010 to distinguish himself from Jaedong and be called bonjwa? How is it possible for two to be the best when one defeats the other in three straight finals?
Q With this victory, you’ve risen to Bonjwa status.
A Receiving a title like that is quite an honor but compared to the players who rose to that level before, I think I’m still lacking. Though it’s nice if fans call me that, I still think “Ultimate Weapon” is better and more appropriate for me right now.
Jaedong doesn't have to be "bonjwa." History will not remember him less fondly because he wasn't awarded that one title. He has been the uncontested strongest Zerg player in the world for years, was more consistently strong than Flash, and is undisputedly one of the greatest players of all time. For Zerg fans, compared to Savior he's all of the talent and skill with none of the guilt.
He may not have been crowned bonjwa because of circumstance, but that doesn't mean he needs it out of pity or favoritism either. He doesn't need it and doesn't want it. He's the Tyrant, a name more meaningful to him than bonjwa, and we love him regardless. Flash bested him for a time, and there's no shame in admitting that. Even fanboys can be reasonable.
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I donno, I still think Flash is slightly ahead given that I don't think any of us can include the power failure victory that was given to Jaedong during the Korean OSL finals(correct me if I'm wrong - bad memory).
We still don't know who would've won that game and Flash was clearly shaken by that loss which you can clearly see in his awful sloppy play in the next game.
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Useless title, anyone can appreciate that Jaedong and Flash are amongst the best players of all time without the word Bonjwa.
On the plus side, the article at SK-Gaming was nicely written with lots of great info on Jaedong! People should focus on that rather than this stupid term.
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Man when did we agree Flash was officially bonjwa? I miss so much when I go to school and focus on the SC2 scene (I haven't been keeping up with anything :C).
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there was a pretty big discussion about that game and i think the general consensus was that jaedong had it regardless
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Both players are going to pass Nada's title count by the time their careers are over so it doesn't really matter how we compare them to bonjwas, Flash just shattered expectations and had the title thrown on him without a lot of thought. They'll be the two greatest players in BW history when they do decide to retire so I think that'll be enough.
On May 28 2011 23:02 Lexpar wrote:
Man when did we agree Flash was officially bonjwa? I miss so much when I go to school and focus on the SC2 scene (I haven't been keeping up with anything :C).
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight about here.
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On May 28 2011 23:03 Legatus Lanius wrote:
there was a pretty big discussion about that game and i think the general consensus was that jaedong had it regardless
I don't know how you reached the conclusion that there was a general consensus (probably a general consensus amongst jaedong fans) because the game itself played out similarly to one of their previous games where jaedong was way ahead economically but flash came in with with a few dropships and won the game.
Flash even says afterwards that he thought he could win the game...and it's not like they went straight to the next game after the power outage occurred. It took like an hour for the next game to begin and Flash was visibly shaken by it.
I think if Flash thinks he could've won the game then there was a big possibility that he could have.
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On May 28 2011 17:58 Grend wrote:
I think this has been said time and time again but I`ll reiterate:
The reason why neither Flash or Jaedong can be considered Bonjwa is that they are both S+ at the same time. As a Bonjwa you are supposed to be utterly dominant, and above everyone else for an extended period of time. You cannot have two Bonjwas at the same time, thus none of them are. They are many other great things, but they cannot be Bonjwa since they mutually exclude eachother from the title.
Basically this sums it up. Although Flash had that one incredibly dominant year, one year doesn't justify "Bonjawa" status. Saviour for example was dominant for like 2-3 years before his eventual slump and or fall. JD was dominant for about 1-2 years prior to Flash's "breakout" year, but I guess he wasn't THAT dominant enough to be crowned Bonjawa. Also it took that year of brilliance by Flash to catch up in terms of medals to Jaedong so JD was always ahead in those terms.
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On May 28 2011 20:36 raviy wrote:
JD is a donkey.
No, sir, JD is THE donkey.
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Btw Thorin if you're reading this thread on TL, there's some mistake when you're discussing vP and vZ percentages where you have protoss and zerg as words mixed up.
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On May 28 2011 23:09 aupstar wrote:
I think if Flash thinks he could've won the game then there was a big possibility that he could have.
Sadly, that's the moment where the line between fair rivalry and disrespect is crossed. Second guessing a top champion leaves is bad form.
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I'm a huge Jaedong fan, but I would not say that he is a bonjwa. He has, probably for a longer time and with fewer drops than anyone else in the modern era of BW, quite consistently been at the very top. But he has rarely been alone. Actually, considering all his achievements it's pretty amazing how few points in time you can point at and say Jaedong was beyond any doubt the best in the world by a respectable margin.
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On May 28 2011 23:09 aupstar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 23:03 Legatus Lanius wrote:
there was a pretty big discussion about that game and i think the general consensus was that jaedong had it regardless I don't know how you reached the conclusion that there was a general consensus (probably a general consensus amongst jaedong fans) because the game itself played out similarly to one of their previous games where jaedong was way ahead economically but flash came in with with a few dropships and won the game. Flash even says afterwards that he thought he could win the game...and it's not like they went straight to the next game after the power outage occurred. It took like an hour for the next game to begin and Flash was visibly shaken by it. I think if Flash thinks he could've won the game then there was a big possibility that he could have.
alot of posters analysed it from the vods. kwark comes to mind, but there were others. flash's economy was dwindling and jaedong had a pretty good grip on 4 gas. you could probably search for the thread will all the discussion, but i can assure you that it was objective and not jaedong fans ganging up on flash lol
flash can say what he likes, but he was in seriousssss trouble by the time the power died in that game
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On May 28 2011 23:28 Legatus Lanius wrote:
flash can say what he likes, but he was in seriousssss trouble by the time the power died in that game
Do you realize how disrespectful your attitude is? Flash earned the right to say what he thinks.
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On May 28 2011 23:31 bluetrolls wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 23:28 Legatus Lanius wrote:
flash can say what he likes, but he was in seriousssss trouble by the time the power died in that game Do you realize how disrespectful your attitude is? Flash earned the right to say what he thinks.
which part of 'flash can say what he likes' did you fail to comprehend?
i prefer to base my judgment on actual analysis, not the words of the guy that was ruled against
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On May 28 2011 23:15 Slardar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 17:58 Grend wrote:
I think this has been said time and time again but I`ll reiterate:
The reason why neither Flash or Jaedong can be considered Bonjwa is that they are both S+ at the same time. As a Bonjwa you are supposed to be utterly dominant, and above everyone else for an extended period of time. You cannot have two Bonjwas at the same time, thus none of them are. They are many other great things, but they cannot be Bonjwa since they mutually exclude eachother from the title.
Basically this sums it up. Although Flash had that one incredibly dominant year, one year doesn't justify "Bonjawa" status. Saviour for example was dominant for like 2-3 years before his eventual slump and or fall. JD was dominant for about 1-2 years prior to Flash's "breakout" year, but I guess he wasn't THAT dominant enough to be crowned Bonjawa. Also it took that year of brilliance by Flash to catch up in terms of medals to Jaedong so JD was always ahead in those terms.
I guess Nada isn't a bonjwa then? Remember, Nada's title as a bonjwa is not for his consistency (his consistency has earned him the title of greatest player to date) but his dominance in 2002-2003, where he won four titles in 10 months in a similar fashion to flash (1 win 1 win double win). He was an absolutely amazing and even title worthy before that run (as demonstrated in his winning of lesser tournaments), but the exact same can be said of Flash and his GOM wins and OSL win before his bonjwa year.
Also, Savior wasn't dominant for 2-3 years. Savior was dominant from late 2005 till early 2007 (March 3rd, one might note). This is a little over a year and a half. So everything you're saying is patently untrue. If savior had dominated for 3 years that means he was dominating in early 04, which is deep in oov territory. >:o
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On May 28 2011 23:28 Legatus Lanius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 23:09 aupstar wrote:On May 28 2011 23:03 Legatus Lanius wrote:
there was a pretty big discussion about that game and i think the general consensus was that jaedong had it regardless I don't know how you reached the conclusion that there was a general consensus (probably a general consensus amongst jaedong fans) because the game itself played out similarly to one of their previous games where jaedong was way ahead economically but flash came in with with a few dropships and won the game. Flash even says afterwards that he thought he could win the game...and it's not like they went straight to the next game after the power outage occurred. It took like an hour for the next game to begin and Flash was visibly shaken by it. I think if Flash thinks he could've won the game then there was a big possibility that he could have. alot of posters analysed it from the vods. kwark comes to mind, but there were others. flash's economy was dwindling and jaedong had a pretty good grip on 4 gas. you could probably search for the thread will all the discussion, but i can assure you that it was objective and not jaedong fans ganging up on flash lol flash can say what he likes, but he was in seriousssss trouble by the time the power died in that game
Remember I didn't say he would win..I said there was a chance he could win...Honestly speaking the game should have been discounted and they should just have continued onto the next maps.
Furthermore the games are strongly influenced by the mentality of the player. Flash felt that the judgement was incorrect and lost all his will to play after that hour long battle with the referees. I don't think Jaedong had the same feeling as he could rest assured that he got the win regardless and needed to win just one more game to lift the osl trophy.
And saying a lot of posters said such and such doesn't really compare to how a pro gamer at the heights of bw is able to interpret the flow of the game.
Economy isn't everything and flash has immaculate m&m control..He was doing great with his small rag tag teams during the game.
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im not arguing the 4th game, im simply arguing the 3rd. of course every game after that is tainted and theres no way to say how it wouldve played out.
in the end, they are just words, idgaf if flash himself says he couldve won. i am much rather interested in posts like this
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=110681
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=110678
because they arent just words, they are words and analysis, backed up by the vods
from the looks of things, jaedong had a pretty heavy economic advantage and flash didnt have much in the way of a MnM. he had maybe a squad of marines, some burnt out science vessels and 6 patches of minerals. he didnt even have a gas =/. i dont think even jesus christ's marines could hold off jaedong in that situation
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Isn't it the idea of a bonjwa that it's indisputable?
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yes, and thats where a big problem lies: how do you determine if it is indisputable whether or not progamer X is a bonjwa when there arent any real criterion?
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On May 28 2011 23:55 Astrapto wrote:
Isn't it the idea of a bonjwa that it's indisputable?
I wouldn't say indisputable, as any anti-fan can just walk up and claim Savior wasn't that good and voila, someone is disputing it. It's mostly just an overwhelming community consensus.
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On May 28 2011 23:59 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 23:55 Astrapto wrote:
Isn't it the idea of a bonjwa that it's indisputable? I wouldn't say indisputable, as any anti-fan can just walk up and claim Savior wasn't that good and voila, someone is disputing it. It's mostly just an overwhelming community consensus.
Find me someone who actually can't admit Savior in his top form wasn't a bonjwa. Savior was the reason the word 'bonjwa' was created (and it was added retrospectively to older dominant players).
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Bonjwa's just a word, people shouldn't get too hung up on it. I mean think about it, even if JD isn't a "bonjwa", he could still be the overall greatest player of the game to have lived. Isn't that a more pertinent issue to discuss rather than some completely arbitrary Korean word that no longer has any uniformly agreed upon definition?
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i think he means legitimate dispute, not just a claim
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On May 29 2011 00:04 Chef wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 23:59 TwoToneTerran wrote:On May 28 2011 23:55 Astrapto wrote:
Isn't it the idea of a bonjwa that it's indisputable? I wouldn't say indisputable, as any anti-fan can just walk up and claim Savior wasn't that good and voila, someone is disputing it. It's mostly just an overwhelming community consensus. Find me someone who actually can't admit Savior in his top form wasn't a bonjwa. Savior was the reason the word 'bonjwa' was created (and it was added retrospectively to older dominant players).
There are many idiots.
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On May 28 2011 23:54 Legatus Lanius wrote:im not arguing the 4th game, im simply arguing the 3rd. of course every game after that is tainted and theres no way to say how it wouldve played out. in the end, they are just words, idgaf if flash himself says he couldve won. i am much rather interested in posts like this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=110681http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=110678because they arent just words, they are words and analysis, backed up by the vods from the looks of things, jaedong had a pretty heavy economic advantage and flash didnt have much in the way of a MnM. he had maybe a squad of marines, some burnt out science vessels and 6 patches of minerals. he didnt even have a gas =/. i dont think even jesus christ's marines could hold off jaedong in that situation
There was no reply after the blackout..A lot of the analysis is just conjecture but I do agree with some of the points to a degree.
There have been just so many games where Flash's opponents have had the lead and he just comes back to win it all it's not funny.
Who knows what kind of damage he would have been able to do with dropships...with the amount of pressure he was consistently maintaining on Jaedong, we do not know how long he would have been able to keep his mineral only.
He had enough gas to maintain a reasonable sci vessel count or create a reasonable tank army according to some of the remarks made about remaining gas.
Who knows where the game would have gone, perhaps he would be able to secure a gas expo eventually...I don't know...Nobody does...
Even Evochamber (in your second link) states that Flash had a chance of winning when the power went out.
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How can you argue that Jaedong isn't bonjwa because his reign coincides with Flash's? It doesn't... I feel like I'm getting trolled. While it's true that Flash won two golds before 2010, Jaedong won FIVE. One of them against Flash. You can say whatever you want about game 3, but the fact of the matter is that it already has been discussed to and fro, and the conclusion is that Jaedong had it pretty much.
Now, you might say, that it disheartened him for game four. I find this to be also wrong: Flash went for an aggressive build, however Jaedong was first able to metagame Flash by guessing a more aggressive opener, and afterwards scout the second barracks off of one base and prepare for it adequately. It just didn't work out for Flash. I'd like to note here that Flash did not lose immediately after his first attack being held off. He died due to his chronic dislike for turrets allowing Jaedong to draw his marines away from his natural permamently and barge in with muta/ling moments later.
It's true that Flash ended Jaedong's run and began his own in 2010. Add the two previous titles and it sealed the deal. But before that, Jaedong had this nailed down to the floor. Yes, Flash is the reason that he has not won more but... Starcraft has reached the point where it can consistently produce great players, and so the overturn time between top cats has been shortened considerably. Or maybe not, depending on how long can Flash keep winning. Or maybe Jaedong will resurrect from the dead to kill Flash? We'll see, there's plenty of time for that.
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in either case, i agree with the decision. any decision made hurts somebody, and as such i believe the most fair decision was awarding jaedong the win as he was large and in charge by the end of it. even a rematch would not have been equitable to jaedong because he was ahead at such a late stage in the game
as for the gas part. well definitely not tanks since he didnt have a machine shop, and i dont really know how he wouldve been able to make both dropships and vessels of too almost depleted gas
in the end, ANYTHING can happen. jaedong could suffer a stroke and die and flash wouldve won the game.
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Bonjwa title is given to the player who is undisputably the best in every match, every tournament for a period of time.. and that period of time is usually defined as at least a year. Jaedong isn't Bonjwa because like many people said Flash and Bisu were in his era. One of those names, Flash, is considered as Bonjwa because he was able to dominate the scene for a long period of time, he won the tournaments etc. Meanwhile Jaedong lost against him in finals in that period. No one can question Jaedong's ability to stay dominant, and play great.. he's an exceptional player but Flash just overshadowed him and there can only be one player at a time to dominate the scene and deserve the Bonjwa title. I'm a Bisu fan, he's to me the best Protoss of all time. He revolutionized PvZ, slayed one of the Bonjwas and became dominant for some time but he never went to claim the title. His choking in OSL was huge to his resumé.
IMHO, this Bonjwa title is bullshit. Ok it adds speciality to the scene. It's like the GOAT title people give in sports but when you have 5 people in such category, it loses its significance. Flash is arguably the best progamer of all time. And Nada has longevity to claim his case. Boxer was great tactician. Oov was a monster who had great skills in all matchups, his 27-0 record vZ at that time was unbelievable. MJY was overall great. He had charisma, he had skills. IMO people should look at things like that. It's more enjoyable and eliminates the controversies like "Bonjwa title".
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Lol so i guess the forbidden b word isnt ban worthy anymore?
@ op: jaedong can not be considered a bonjwa whilst having a rival (flash) who is equal to or arguably better than he is.
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a bonjwa thread, oh god.
May the moderators protect us
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On May 28 2011 17:35 CakeOrI)eath wrote:Normally you see these threads when + Show Spoiler +a player wins an MSL/OSL, not when they just got knocked out of one
+ Show Spoiler +That's actually why I chose to write this article now. I'd considered this, based on some of the arguments I outlined, to be the case since the NATE MSL final but repeated discussions on the topic on forum threads sparked off more and more topics worth addressing. I don't like it when people write articles exaggerating the greatness of players so I considered that if Jaedong had won this MSL people would have been more likely to be swayed purely by him being on top, being as it is easy to get caught up in the excitement and short term swings of the game.
Instead I thought by writing this article now, at one of Jaedong's lower points relative to his past successes, that people might be able to look at the topic with a clearer head in assessing the historical impact of his career.
I've noticed a few pieces of rhetoric keep being repeated, albeit in different words, in this thread so I'll formulate some of them into one liners and address them one at a time:
-Bonjwa is a Korean term and only the Koreans know what it means, how to define it and who deserves to be a bonjwa
There is no term I am aware of in the West which is as useful for the specific purpose bonjwa is used for by Western BW fans. Koreans can use the term bonjwa however they want, and indeed consider anyone they want a bonjwa or not. What's significant to me is that in the Western mind it seems to have taken on a life of its own and I think it has become useful for describing players who were truly great and dominated in a transcendant way, as separated from players who were good or even really good at specific points.
Since the term works better than any other I can think of in English I think it's worth adapting for this purpose, and I outlined my definitions of it at length. Even the words one would use to describe a player without the word bonjwa are quite vague and subjective when you get do to it: good, great, best and top can all stretch quite far depending on how frequently you use them or they can contract to a minute degree depending on how strict you are with them. The actual term someone uses is less important than that they define what they mean by it in my opinion. That way we can all at least build our own dictionary to understand that person's points.
-Only Koreans should use the word bonjwa. This topic has been raised many times before, why bring it up again?
In my opinion the people who come into bonjwa threads and scream about how none of us should even be allowed to use the word because we're not Korean are at least a little misguided, and possibly more obsessed than the people using the word bonjwa. Imagine if a bunch of who weren't Irish began a James Joyce reading thread and were giving our own interpretations of sections of Ulysses and someone came in and repeatedly made comments like "Stop talking about this, you're not Irish", "God, can't you guys get over it and move on to some new books?" or "These discussions have been had before, your interpretations are incorrect because Joyce himself said [X] and [Y]". A preposterous notion right?
What makes forums, especially those populated by knowledage people like TeamLiquid, a great resource is that we discuss topics with a wide variety of people and in doing so we might get some new or interesting perspectives on an issue that we hadn't previously encountered or considered. I had hoped that people would engage in genuine discussion about the topic by reading the article and then addressing their opinions based on the criteria I laid out there.
Address the topics/criteria not the title
So if someone thinks Jaedong is not a bonjwa then reference some of my specific criteria and list why he is not on those grounds yet another bonjwa is on those grounds. Sadly there have been a few people who came into this thread and simply immediately responded purely to the title, which is equivalent to someone making a thread titled "Hydra is god" and having other people come in and post things like "There is but one god: Allah", "Don't blaspheme against the Creator Jesus" or "Only the bible should be allowed to define who god is". Not only is it counter to the purpose of a forum discussion but most of the responses don't even match up with the topic which is actually being discussed.
Some of the basic objections brought up so far are things I directly and explicitly address in the article. Also some people aren't playing the game in terms of helping us all have an enjoyable discussion. It's not productive when debating a topic to simply make assertions and then never reference or back them up with any kind of points, facts or evidence. If you think Michael Jordan is the best basketball player ever it's not enough to say "MJ is the best ever" because you've killed the conversation. If instead you say "MJ is the best ever because [X], [Y], [Z] and possibly [A]" then someone has grounds on which to address your points, whether they agree or not. In my opinion in a discussion it's less about having the "right" answer or the "truth" than it having an interesting perspective or some points against which people can pick out responses to further the discussion.
As far as this discussion never needing to be had again. For people who truly feel that way it seems a little pointless to open the thread. Everything can and should be discussed, especially everything interesting. People might say "You can't compare Kobe Bryant to Michael Jordan" and as a turn of phrase to mean that Kobe Bryant is not even close that statement might have minor merit. As an actual literal statement though it's somewhat silly. You can compare anyone to anyone else. In comparing you might even find out new perspectives on Michael Jordan's career you hadn't considered before.
It's also the case that there have been lots and lots of discussions about bonjwas on TeamLiquid, and I've read close to all of them, but one of the weak points of such a huge community is that a lot of the different perspectives and lines of logic get broken up and lost amongst a sea of comments. I thought it would be useful to put together every, in my opinion, legitmate line of argumentation and significant fact for why Jaedong should/could be considered a bonjwa into one article. That way people have something substantial to respond to and they can go into as fine and precise detail as is possible, due to everything being outlined and defined.
He's not a bonjwa. He is a bonjwa. You're not a bonjwa. I'm a bonjwa. bonjwas, bonjwas everywhere and not a definition in sight.
The most fascinating point about the bonjwa debate in my opinion, as I would hope people have noticed from the responses in this thread alone, is the sociological impact of them. There are only two things we can say with absolute certainty about the term bonjwa:
1) Everyone thinks they know who is and isn't a bonjwa
2) The sum total of everyone's separate definitions of what a bonjwa is include mutually exclusive clauses and sometimes even don't apply to all five (or four) of the accepted bonjwas.
One thing I've noticed which seems to be a major blind spot for some people is bending the term depending on which specific player they are addressing. On one hand they'll say something like "Jaedong isn't a bonjwa because [X], sAviOr was [X]". Then you'll point out that BoxeR or NaDa didn't meet the requirement of [X] either. Basically what people have done is taken the hardest and best accomplishments of all the past bonjwas and then, despite the fact none of them share absolutely all of those requirements, say that any additional bonjwas must at least match those extreme requirements.
So we have people saying you have to dominate Proleague and win the MVP, win for three years, have no rival who beats you, change BW fundamentally on a metagame and tactical level and so on.
I've still yet to see anyone address some of the specific bonjwa by bonjwa arguments I laid out on the terms of those specific sub-criteria:
* Why is sAviOr failing to even qualify for three OSLs in a row still considered domination while if Jaedong wins golds but also silvers in a reasonably comparable timeframe it is discounted since by losing he wasn't "on top"?
* Why is iloveoov dominating by reaching five finals and winning all of them better than Jaedong reaching nine, winning the same amount and then losing four? Basically iloveoov has five 1st and then at least four 3rd places or below as his top 9 placings. Jaedong has five 1sts and four 2nds.
* Since BoxeR meets almost none of the bonjwa criteria of the others, dominating for all of three seasons in terms of golds, why is he allowed to be considered an honorary bonjwa but Jaedong is not?
* If you have to radically alter the metagame and make genius changes to your race then why is NaDa a bonjwa on that criteria bearing in mind he basically has the most in common with the modern era of players by taking what the great players before them did and basically applying superior mechanics and repetition to "perfecting" those strategies?
Those are vastly simplified versions of some of the points I make in the argument so anyone who wants to engage with them would be advised to go and read them in the article itself where more time and thought has been put into how they are laid out.
The main point I'm getting at is that many people cherry pick the hardest criteria that applies to one bonjwa, without considering if it applies to the other 3/4, and then move onto the next bonjwa and repeat until they have a near impossible set of requirements which all of the bonjwas didn't accomplish individually.
You can't have two bonjwas at the same time.
People are again playing with applying definitions as and when they please depending on if they say someone is a bonjwa or someone isn't. Look at the time spans of the first three bonjwas while they were actually "in" their bonjwahood. They all come very close to overlapping.
Flash's bonjwahood, by those who consider him a bonjwa, is cited as being from the EVER OSL 2009 to the Korean Air S2 OSL, six finals in total. Yet that is really more of a comfortable way of including his first gold of that roughly year long run. Being more strict you'd have to look at his first two league runs of that period (EVER OSL and NATE MSL) and say that Flash was still below Jaedong at that point since he beat Jaedong in a Bo3 but then lost to him in a Bo5 and had a losing Bo5 record against Jaedong in individual leagues, where it truly matters.
So either Flash's bonjwa run is allowed to overlap into Jaedong's time at the top, to include an extra gold and silver, or his run should only be counted as four finals and three golds from that period. Likewise if you can't count Jaedong's whole career, from EVER 2007 OSL onwards, then take your pick of Jaedong's period from the combined OSL + MSL path I simplified as follows:
G-G-S-0-G-G-G-S-S+S
So you can take the six season span from Ever OSL 2007 to NATE MSL as Jaedong's bonjwa run and you get five golds and a silver in six seasons, as well as three golds in a row.
Or you can go the other way and take the period from the Battoo OSL 2009 to the Korean Air OSL S2 and count his run as three golds and three silvers in five seasons, as well as three golds in a row and at least one medal five seasons in a row.
You can't apply bonjwa retroactively, Jaedong has missed his opportunity.
All of the bonjwas were named retroactively. Almost as soon as sAviOr became the first active bonjwa he was dethroned and spiraled out of bonjwahood. BoxeR, NaDa and iloveoov were all named bonjwas retroactively.
Again: for the sake of the discussion rather than tell someone they are wrong or that you're right how about coming up with an interesting perspective or addressing the specific points they raised in support of their case.
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On May 28 2011 23:46 aupstar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 23:28 Legatus Lanius wrote:On May 28 2011 23:09 aupstar wrote:On May 28 2011 23:03 Legatus Lanius wrote:
there was a pretty big discussion about that game and i think the general consensus was that jaedong had it regardless I don't know how you reached the conclusion that there was a general consensus (probably a general consensus amongst jaedong fans) because the game itself played out similarly to one of their previous games where jaedong was way ahead economically but flash came in with with a few dropships and won the game. Flash even says afterwards that he thought he could win the game...and it's not like they went straight to the next game after the power outage occurred. It took like an hour for the next game to begin and Flash was visibly shaken by it. I think if Flash thinks he could've won the game then there was a big possibility that he could have. alot of posters analysed it from the vods. kwark comes to mind, but there were others. flash's economy was dwindling and jaedong had a pretty good grip on 4 gas. you could probably search for the thread will all the discussion, but i can assure you that it was objective and not jaedong fans ganging up on flash lol flash can say what he likes, but he was in seriousssss trouble by the time the power died in that game Remember I didn't say he would win..I said there was a chance he could win...Honestly speaking the game should have been discounted and they should just have continued onto the next maps. Furthermore the games are strongly influenced by the mentality of the player. Flash felt that the judgement was incorrect and lost all his will to play after that hour long battle with the referees. I don't think Jaedong had the same feeling as he could rest assured that he got the win regardless and needed to win just one more game to lift the osl trophy. And saying a lot of posters said such and such doesn't really compare to how a pro gamer at the heights of bw is able to interpret the flow of the game. Economy isn't everything and flash has immaculate m&m control..He was doing great with his small rag tag teams during the game.
Don't be ridiculous. All Kespa refs unanimously agreed Jaedong had the game won enough to award him to win. You're gonna tell me you know more about the game than them?
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If you have to radically alter the metagame and make genius changes to your race then why is NaDa a bonjwa on that criteria bearing in mind he basically has the most in common with the modern era of players by taking what the great players before them did and basically applying superior mechanics and repetition to "perfecting" those strategies?
You are absolutely, unbelievably wrong. Nada was making earth shattering changes before people even knew who Iloveoov was, and that insofar means you're wrong about the point of changing the game as a whole.
You can't have two bonjwas at the same time.
People are again playing with applying definitions as and when they please depending on if they say someone is a bonjwa or someone isn't. Look at the time spans of the first three bonjwas while they were actually "in" their bonjwahood. They all come very close to overlapping.
Flash's bonjwahood, by those who consider him a bonjwa, is cited as being from the EVER OSL 2009 to the Korean Air S2 OSL, six finals in total. Yet that is really more of a comfortable way of including his first gold of that roughly year long run. Being more strict you'd have to look at his first two league runs of that period (EVER OSL and NATE MSL) and say that Flash was still below Jaedong at that point since he beat Jaedong in a Bo3 but then lost to him in a Bo5 and had a losing Bo5 record against Jaedong in individual leagues, where it truly matters.
So either Flash's bonjwa run is allowed to overlap into Jaedong's time at the top, to include an extra gold and silver, or his run should only be counted as four finals and three golds from that period. Likewise if you can't count Jaedong's whole career, from EVER 2007 OSL onwards, then take your pick of Jaedong's period from the combined OSL + MSL path I simplified as follows:
This entire bit is completely wrong. Flash's insane run was charted back to when he won the final Gom tournament -- while this does not count as an official title it is when people started noticing that Flash was not only a better player than before, but mystifyingly better and doing things that were shaping the metagame. Jaedong was losing all sorts of games in this extended time period you mention, going so far as to lose in QUALIFIERS to a protoss (Tyson), a Bo3 to free, a 3-0 sweep by forgg, getting knocked out of the msl by hwasin and Flash, etc etc -- he was not unstoppable in any of these timespans you like to mention and in no way was comparable to flash in 2010, because no one ever has been comparable to Flash in 2010 and that's what it takes to be a bonjwa nowadays, not just a collection of disjointed, if impressive, accomplishments.
The height of Jaedong's play was the season he made it to both finals, as previously he could only make it to 1 final and the Ro8 at best, and at this height of his career Flash shut him down. This is the biggest deal behind why Jaedong never established himself as truly dominant without question.
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Jaedong is not a bonjwa. I am really surprised by this topics specially when he just lost the semi' finals. He cant be bonjwa because of flash, really simple.. Maybe when he wins dual gold, he may reapply for this status..
And koreans give out bonjwa status anyway.. or god status )
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And frankly, that you question Boxer's dominance is such an insult to just how incredible he was and just how narrow-mindedly you view this whole discussion, as you boil it down completely to OSLs and MSLs when things were so different in the past. You have even less knowledge and understanding of previous eras than I do (I am no scholar), which is downright embarrassing for someone trying to argue so fervently for a term USED for those eras.
I wish Mortality would just pop in to school you on some of this oldschool stuff you're completely dismissing because he's way better at it than I am, but dear lord, Boxer wasn't dominant enough and Nada didn't change the game enough? Reaaaaalllllly?
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Jaedong reigned king of starcraft for two or three years. Nobody really called him that for some reason, I have no idea. This is before Flash's domination, and once flash started dominating, they thought, oh Jaedong was so good, but flash is even better just by specific Jaedong Vs Flash matches.
Jaedong defeated many foes, but flash just defeated Jaedong and then some scraps to claim that title.
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Oh for the love of god. Now the word "Metagame" has joined this thread. Let's announce a Metagame-Bonjwa, yeah, that sounds like an idea that could kill even more of my brain cells. And if all of that wasn't enough, we are talking about game 3 of Poweroutage-MSL again. Lord help us!
I have to stop opening these kind of threads, my blood pressure is to high for this kind of discussion. Sorry for not contributing anything meaningful, but I just cannot believe this thread.
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i think the word bonjwa isnt as important as it was, its a subjective word,so its hard to settle exactly who was and who will. what is curious is that this isnt the time to publish this, when he recently lost to zero. we all know jaedong dominated, but savior domination was i believe more visible to the eye, because zerg was the weak race, he managed to revive that race and make it a playable one. flash became bonjwa not because he defeated jaedong , because he managed to dominate , and take golds, in a record time,how many time does a progammer took to get 5 golds, flash i believe is the progammer in achieving that in less time, but i believe no one can really measure "Bonjwaness" of a player, because everyone will be settled to his own opinion regarding who dominated more, and just like in math, there are too many variables involved that is better to leave that way.
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By all statistical accounts, yes, Jaedong is a Bonjwa. However, it's not just numbers. It's in the air. It's something that the spectator FEELS when he watches that players play.
Jaedong has always exerted dominance when he plays. He's rips command of the game from his opponents and batters them to death in a ceaseless attack designed to become the starcraft equivalent of Tennis "court presence". That being said. Jaedong TAKES command. He assumes control through sheer force of will. An impressive feat to be sure.
Unfortunately, the other Bonjwas never forced control. They didn't take it. They walked into the booth, and it was there. Laid before their feet on a silver platter dominance simply existed for them.
I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but to me that's what qualifies the difference between Jaedong and Bonjwa status.
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For those of you that completely ignore statistics, I suppose you can choose to overlook this. However, according to Liquipedia: "Bonjwa" 본좌 in Korean was originally the self-raising first-person pronoun, used to distinguish oneself. So I'm gonna take a look at how the bonjwas distinguished themselves above others in the OSL and MSL, considering only final appearances.
This is a list of the OSL and MSL finals winners and second place finishers in order of the last day of the tournament. This is the order that you saw champions crowned. Sometimes the difference is a week or two, sometimes several months. Sometimes the MSL drops off the face of the earth and you have several OSL's in a row, but that doesn't matter. For individual league dominance, these are your champions and runner ups. If you watched the finals as they aired, this is how it happened in order.
Unspoiler for the full list:
+ Show Spoiler +
Tip: Unspoiler the above, Hit Ctrl+F, type your players name of choice, and click highlight. That should help you see periods of dominance. You can also see Bisu, rA, and July's mini-dominance.
BoxeR's best:
4 Tournaments
3-1 Finals
Other Multiple Finals (OMF) = Yellow: 0-2
NaDa's best:
5 Tournaments
4-0 finals
OMF = Reach: 1-1, Chojja: 0-2
iloveoov's best:
7 Tournaments
4-0 finals
OMF = Nal_rA: 1-1
sAviOr's best:
10 Tournaments
4-2 finals
OMF = Anytime: 1-1, Chojja: 1-1, NaDa: 1-1
Jaedong's best:
10 Tournaments
4-1 finals
OMF = Stork: 1-2, Fantasy: 0-2, JangBi: 0-2
Flash's best:
6 Tournaments
4-2 Finals
OMF = Jaedong: 1-3
I'll let these statistics mostly speak for themselves. The bonjwa's are winning 3 or 4 tournaments in a span where no other wins more than one. Usually no one else even makes more than 2 finals, except for Stork during JD's run or JD during Flash's run. As much as I love Stork, obviously he is no contender for bonjwa. Remember: JD was dominating before Flash became god, and that is where the bonjwa talk should be. I believe that it is very similar to Savior's. Something to consider.
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if JD can be considered bonjwa then bisu is definitely bonjwa
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On May 29 2011 01:11 TwoToneTerran wrote:
And frankly, that you question Boxer's dominance is such an insult to just how incredible he was and just how narrow-mindedly you view this whole discussion, as you boil it down completely to OSLs and MSLs when things were so different in the past. You have even less knowledge and understanding of previous eras than I do (I am no scholar), which is downright embarrassing for someone trying to argue so fervently for a term USED for those eras.
Are ad hominem attacks, hysterics and vague allusions considered valid avenues of debate now?
Nada was making earth shattering changes before people even knew who Iloveoov was
Perhaps you could list some of them instead of simply making assertions which you don't back up and nobody can respond to, except with assertions of their own.
Jaedong was losing all sorts of games in this extended time period you mention, going so far as to lose in QUALIFIERS to a protoss (Tyson)
sAviOr failed to win the OSL qualifiers three straight years during his peak.
a Bo3 to free
Flash lost a Bo5 to Jaedong during the time period you cite as his bonjwa run.
a 3-0 sweep by forgg
sAviOr managed to lose to ChoJJa during his peak and get swept by Bisu in humiliating fashion.
getting knocked out of the msl by hwasin and Flash
sAviOr never even got into the OSLs during his MSL runs, except the last.
he was not unstoppable in any of these timespans you like to mention
Then why was sAviOr unstoppable during his run?
Again it seems like you cherry pick success from one guy and failure from another when if you look at both leagues combined they both were having at least one success story each season for a streak of multiple seasons. How is this different?
because no one ever has been comparable to Flash in 2010 and that's what it takes to be a bonjwa nowadays
Then based on your own logic nobody except Flash can be considered a bonjwa, since all of the others lack in some area that Flash has succeeded but which you hold against Jaedong.
Boxer wasn't dominant enough and Nada didn't change the game enough? Reaaaaalllllly?
Luckily for me I didn't say either of those things. You seem to need to create straw men arguments which you assign to me so you can knock them down. If my arguments are invalid then address them directly on their own merits. Just because someone says they think Kobe is the best player in basketball doesn't mean they automatically hate LeBron and think his accomplishments are worthless. I specifically stated in the first section of the article that I acknowledge all of the five bonjwas and consider them all truly great and transcendent players.
From what I can tell the significant difference between you and I is that I don't pretend to know everything and haven't decided beforehand that I'm right and know more than you. The majority of my points have been specifically phrased as questions so that people will address them by giving me answers. I'm not afraid of being wrong and learning something new.
Of course you're free to continue acting exasperated because I took BoxeR's name in vain rather than address my points with specifics, as I've repeatedly requested.
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BTW for everyone else, I forgot to mention this earlier, in every series during his run from 2009 onwards I've pulled for Flash over Jaedong every time. So this is not about a Jaedong fanboy downplaying Flash's dominance to try and make Jaedong seem better in comparison. If anything I am a Bisu fanboy and then a Flash fanboy to a slightly lesser degree, though I appreciate the play and accomplishments of any great player on its own merits.
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Can we start banning people for the b word again?
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to me and many others, jd is already a bonjwa.
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you can't have 2 bonjwas of one time period. that's why neither jaedong nor flash is a bonjwa
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On May 29 2011 02:07 Eknoid4 wrote:
you can't have 2 bonjwas of one time period. that's why neither jaedong nor flash is a bonjwa
Your first sentence is true. See my post several above. I argue that JD was bonjwa prior to Flash's god-mode, as Flash only reached and won 1 final in a span where JD went 4-1 in finals. And JD only won 1 final during a span where Flash won 4, so Flash definitely rose above JD at this time.
There is PLENTY of room for both of them to be bonjwas at different times.
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I think you're trying too hard to affix a title to someone that means a lot less than you think it does. This energy people spend on this kind of fanboyism could be better spent in so many other ways.
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On May 29 2011 00:41 Thorin wrote:
* Since BoxeR meets almost none of the bonjwa criteria of the others, dominating for all of three seasons in terms of golds, why is he allowed to be considered an honorary bonjwa but Jaedong is not?
Flash and Jaedong in interviews have specifically labeled Boxer the greatest player ever so...?
These notions like "winning 4 SL's in a row" were developed because NaDa, Oov and Savior followed that line. They don't actually address what bonjwa is all about: being undisputed. Proving yourself over every challenger who appears.
In Boxer's day, OSL was the biggest tournament, true, but you have to understand that you are naively applying thoughts you hav developed from watching SC in the TBLS era to a completely different era. Back then, "Starleague" didn't really mean all that much more than a host of other tournaments: Game-Q, KBK, iTV, ghemTV, etc. Even WCG... back then foreigners actually COULD compete with top pros. Guys like Slayer, Giyom, and Elky actually made names for themselves in Korea.
OSL and KPGA, which later became MSL, managed to stand out over the competition over time, after they successfully built images that far surpassed rival leagues.
* If you have to radically alter the metagame and make genius changes to your race then why is NaDa a bonjwa on that criteria bearing in mind he basically has the most in common with the modern era of players by taking what the great players before them did and basically applying superior mechanics and repetition to "perfecting" those strategies?
Could you possibly talk further out of your ass? NaDa is not known as a "strategic player" because he always played by the book. But NaDa wrote the fucking book. Modern TvP can be traced back to NaDa, who took us out of the age of 2 factory play and slow pushes and gay cliff turtling on Lost Temple and into the age of midgame timing pushes and the 200/200 14-16 minute push that to this day is a TvP staple. Arguably NaDa has had the greatest stamp on TvP ever, perhaps only surpassed by St.Eagle. His greater focus on macro in TvT and TvZ helped pave the way for later players like Oov.
NaDa was called the "Genius Terran" for a reason dude. I suggest you look these things up before running your mouth like a fool. NaDa was a player who was a master of all aspects but one: mind games, which wouldn't become a big component of pro SC until Oov.
You can't have two bonjwas at the same time.
You can't have two people be undisputed at the same time. That defeats the meaning of the word.
You can't apply bonjwa retroactively, Jaedong has missed his opportunity.
All of the bonjwas were named retroactively. Almost as soon as sAviOr became the first active bonjwa he was dethroned and spiraled out of bonjwahood. BoxeR, NaDa and iloveoov were all named bonjwas retroactively.
This point is correct. The term bonjwa was first used by July's fans to recognize July, but the SC community as a whole did not recognize July as bonjwa despite that he held KeSPA #1 for 10 months consecutively. Savior was the first the term was universally applied to both by fans and haters alike.
Jaedong's rightful term of dominance 2009. Although he was strong throughout 2008, Protoss season interrupted his dominance with both Bisu and Stork ahead of Jaedong at one point. In 2009 JD went OSL-OSL-MSL, which was his case for bonjwa, but the point that went against him was Flash. Starting in mid 2009 when Jaedong was entering his height, Flash started to see a resurgence through his performance in GOM. When faced with Flash in the Ever 09/NATE season, JD was 2-0'd out of OSL. He came back for a 3-1 in MSL but that was with the Power Outage event spoiling the result. A few days later Flash wins in PL. Fans felt that JD wasn't rightfully tested during the bo5 Power Outage event since the event visibly shook Flash off his game. And so Jaedong did not pass the last test to bonjwahood.
In my opinion, Jaedong really can be compared to players with the label and arguably deserves it. He spent much of 2008 and pretty much all of 2009 being the strongest player and achieved a bonjwa-like gap in accomplishments over his rivals. However if we look at the rival situation, the picture is less flattering: players like Stork, Bisu, Fantasy and Free were definitely able to face JD evenly. That is where Jaedong fell short. By the time he was clear of other rivals there was Flash.
Again: for the sake of the discussion rather than tell someone they are wrong or that you're right how about coming up with an interesting perspective or addressing the specific points they raised in support of their case.
Don't make naive, uninformed statements and then try to cop your way out with such a bullcrap statement. You are wrong about a lot of things. You clearly weren't there, weren't watching progaming, formed a few uninformed ideas about the way things worked from reading comments made by people who read comments made by people who read comments made by people who were actually there. Your information isn't even second hand, let alone first hand, and it's rooted in ignorance.
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Sigh.
Bonjwa is about uncontested domination. This thread alone has eight pages of contestation. Therefore, not bonjwa.
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Edit- Everyone read Mortality's post and mine is just a post script to him. He pretty rightly points out what I could not.
On May 29 2011 01:40 Thorin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2011 01:11 TwoToneTerran wrote:
And frankly, that you question Boxer's dominance is such an insult to just how incredible he was and just how narrow-mindedly you view this whole discussion, as you boil it down completely to OSLs and MSLs when things were so different in the past. You have even less knowledge and understanding of previous eras than I do (I am no scholar), which is downright embarrassing for someone trying to argue so fervently for a term USED for those eras. Are ad hominem attacks, hysterics and vague allusions considered valid avenues of debate now?
Not when my point about how you only consider OSLs/MSLs as a viable metric is 100% true.
Show nested quote +Nada was making earth shattering changes before people even knew who Iloveoov was Perhaps you could list some of them instead of simply making assertions which you don't back up and nobody can respond to, except with assertions of their own.
Ugh, okay. You know the unit composition everyone uses in TvP? Nada's. You know how everyone uses vultures at all? Nada's. Hell, half the early-midgame-lategame factory attacks are Nada's builds, as well as an uncountable number midgame pushes in TvZ that are still used today. I'd say he defined the dropship based TvT more than any terran. I wasn't watching the game back then but these are things I've picked up when I said the same misguided comments you did about how Nada wasn't as gamechanging as the other Bonjwas. I really wish Mortality was here.
Show nested quote +Jaedong was losing all sorts of games in this extended time period you mention, going so far as to lose in QUALIFIERS to a protoss (Tyson) sAviOr failed to win the OSL qualifiers three straight years during his peak.
Yeah, and he didn't lose a series to a terran on the worst maps in ZvT history and creating modern ZvT as we know it while doing so, but you don't make note of that because the only thing you care about is specific positions in tournaments. I countered you with your own logic about making deep runs in tournaments being the only factor when that's clearly not how I think. This addresses your plethora of responses to me just trying to play by your misguided logic about what made the bonjwas so unique.
Then why was sAviOr unstoppable during his run? Again it seems like you cherry pick success from one guy and failure from another when if you look at both leagues combined they both were having at least one success story each season for a streak of multiple seasons. How is this different?
No, you're the one who does nothing but cherry pick Jaedong's accomplishments and completely dejects all of the less tangible accomplishments of the bonjwas. You pick out how Boxer doesn't have as many MSLs and OSLs when he was dominating before the MSL existed, and was clearly the #1 player for a longer stretch than any player since. You try to make up things about Nada not being as gamechanging as other bonjwas which so unabashedly displays how little you know about not just the Bonjwas, but everything in BW before 2007.
Then based on your own logic nobody except Flash can be considered a bonjwa, since all of the others lack in some area that Flash has succeeded but which you hold against Jaedong.
Nope, if Jaedong does what Flash did he would clearly be bonjwa. That's just what it takes to gain the recognition -- or, he could completely change the fundamental execution of the game and go on to be insanely dominant with it like Savior.
Luckily for me I didn't say either of those things. You seem to need to create straw men arguments which you assign to me so you can knock them down. If my arguments are invalid then address them directly on their own merits.
"* Since BoxeR meets almost none of the bonjwa criteria of the others, dominating for all of three seasons in terms of golds, why is he allowed to be considered an honorary bonjwa but Jaedong is not?"
This is you, unambiguously saying Boxer was not dominant enough because of your distinction of golds and only golds matters. This is saying he was not dominant enough compared to other bonjwas, and you are wrong in this fact because the only thing you've done is point out the most basic statistic of "Did he win titles???" and completely missed out on, you know, all of the games boxer played, the tons of leagues and matches that had nothing to do with the OSL or MSL back then because they weren't the only things that mattered back then, because you've only cited things that anyone can glance off of the TLPD and have no clue about the TONS of games and tournaments that it has missed that truly mattered back then and were instrumental to why Boxer was #1 so long.
"* If you have to radically alter the metagame and make genius changes to your race then why is NaDa a bonjwa on that criteria bearing in mind he basically has the most in common with the modern era of players by taking what the great players before them did and basically applying superior mechanics and repetition to "perfecting" those strategies?"
This is you unambiguously saying that Nada is not innovative enough compared to the other bonjwas, which I've already addressed and is so patently untrue that I, personally, am not learned enough or eloquent enough to inform you on more than I have because there is just so much information about this topic that I don't know. But I can 100%, without even the slightest hesitation, tell you you are wrong. You may phrase this as a question but there is an obvious statement that assumes Nada mostly just copied people before him, but better.
You said both of these things, and they're both very very wrong.
Just because someone says they think Kobe is the best player in basketball doesn't mean they automatically hate LeBron and think his accomplishments are worthless. I specifically stated in the first section of the article that I acknowledge all of the five bonjwas and consider them all truly great and transcendent players.
Yes, you said that as a disclaimer and then instantly denigrate their accomplishments to try to prove your points, even going so far as to blatantly lie about Nada and Boxer as I've pointed out, because the only thing you seem to be able to do is scour TLPD -- I know this seems like an ad hominem, but NOTHING you've posted is something you can't obviously pick out of TLPD and that is why I'm so skeptical. You know nothing of the superfight where Savior just walked in, crushed every other team's ace like everyone expected, and walked out and no one batted an eyelash because he was just so much better than everyone else, nothing of the amateur tournament where Nada, as a non-pro, walked in and showed everyone up doing things no one had seen before. You take no notice of the ITV games, GhemTV games, special matches, special team leagues, every single important league and game that wasn't and OSL or MSL -- these are the intangible wins that TLPD doesn't mention and that add so amazingly to a player's aura and domination, and are things you don't know about or at the very least make no mention of.
From what I can tell the significant difference between you and I is that I don't pretend to know everything and haven't decided beforehand that I'm right and know more than you. The majority of my points have been specifically phrased as questions so that people will address them by giving me answers. I'm not afraid of being wrong and learning something new.
Of course you're free to continue acting exasperated because I took BoxeR's name in vain rather than address my points with specifics, as I've repeatedly requested.
I'm sorry, I just don't like seeing the guys who created the game get demeaned because "Golds and Silvers~!"
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Jaedong Bonjwa? No. Very strong plater? Yes. Jaedong doesn't really have that aura that oov, savior, and Boxer had. People are still afraid of him, but just not as much.
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Flash is bonjwa. Thus Jaedong is not bonjwa. kk? You can only have one bonjwa at a time.
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Jaedong deserves a Bonjwa status imo.
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jaedong can't be bonjwa if bisu can routinely roflstomp him into the ground
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Hmph = /. I honestly feel like if you can get 5 starleagues you deserve to be called a bonjwa
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Two posts above me:
The superfights were such an amazing series, IPXZerg hwaiting~
edit:
This is just a rehash of all the bonjwa discussions after the power outage MSL, with a very weird timing.
I literally lol'd when I saw the post that said: you usually see this kind of post after someone winning an SL, not dropping out of one. My feelings exactly.
I agree with TTT and Morality and whoever said that no such discussion topics should even exist, you cannot just use statistics, it's all about the aura of dominance. For Jaedong, even during his peak in 2009, his aura was constantly mollified by Flash's own aura of dominance.
Jaedong had his chance even after the power outage, too bad he was knocked out of the OSL by flash 0-2.
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On May 29 2011 02:44 Cambium wrote:
Two posts above me:
The superfights were such an amazing series, IPXZerg hwaiting~
Might've been the sickest display of one guy being so clearly better than everyone else that we've seen in BW. But it doesn't matter because he lost in OSL qualifiers, lol.
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On May 29 2011 02:48 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2011 02:44 Cambium wrote:
Two posts above me:
The superfights were such an amazing series, IPXZerg hwaiting~ Might've been the sickest display of one guy being so clearly better than everyone else that we've seen in BW. But it doesn't matter he lost in OSL qualifiers, lol.
I remember it so vividly because Mani posted a 100$ prize for whoever guesses it correctly. I guessed every single outcome correctly, too bad I posted it after the games ended, lol.
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Baltimore, USA22254 Posts
Oh god how did this make it to 9 pages...
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EPT
