• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 11:27
CET 17:27
KST 01:27
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info3herO wins SC2 All-Star Invitational14SC2 All-Star Invitational: Tournament Preview5RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0
Community News
Weekly Cups (Jan 12-18): herO, MaxPax, Solar win0BSL Season 2025 - Full Overview and Conclusion8Weekly Cups (Jan 5-11): Clem wins big offline, Trigger upsets4$21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7)25Weekly Cups (Dec 29-Jan 4): Protoss rolls, 2v2 returns7
StarCraft 2
General
herO wins SC2 All-Star Invitational PhD study /w SC2 - help with a survey! Oliveira Would Have Returned If EWC Continued StarCraft 2 not at the Esports World Cup 2026 [Short Story] The Last GSL
Tourneys
$21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7) OSC Season 13 World Championship $70 Prize Pool Ladder Legends Academy Weekly Open! SC2 All-Star Invitational: Jan 17-18 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[A] Starcraft Sound Mod
External Content
Mutation # 510 Safety Violation Mutation # 509 Doomsday Report Mutation # 508 Violent Night Mutation # 507 Well Trained
Brood War
General
Which foreign pros are considered the best? [ASL21] Potential Map Candidates Gypsy to Korea BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Fantasy's Q&A video
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues Azhi's Colosseum - Season 2 Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 10
Strategy
Current Meta Simple Questions, Simple Answers Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2 Game Theory for Starcraft
Other Games
General Games
Beyond All Reason Nintendo Switch Thread Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Awesome Games Done Quick 2026!
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Lost love spell caster in Spain +27 74 116 2667
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread NASA and the Private Sector
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club! The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
How Esports Advertising Shap…
TrAiDoS
My 2025 Magic: The Gathering…
DARKING
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1466 users

How to beat Flash: Commentator Edition.

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 Next All
Milkis
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-14 18:46:39
May 14 2010 18:04 GMT
#1
The latest episode of OGN's 돌아온 뒷담화 talked about Protoss vs Terran (specifically, they talked about "how to beat Flash" for a bit) strategies. A summary of the strategies mentioned (assuming I translated it correctly)

I don't actually know the names of the commentators with the exception of Kangmin, so I won't label who said what, but a brief summary of strategies mentioned. I'm going to concentrate more on PvT since it was much more indepth.

- Flash is the favorite to beat the OSL. Kal has the best chance against Flash, and the commentators believe that Flash vs Kal will be very entertaining.

- Players need some sort of hidden card in order to make Flash attack, whether it be just going Carriers or taking massive amounts of Expos. Essentially, use Flash's timing sense against him -- make Flash believe that there is a timing window and draw him out, and use that "advantage" (i guess this refers to knowing that flash is attacking) + micro to deal with the army (Psi Storm, Stasis), and then go carriers in that transition. This is because if you go carriers before hand, it takes up too much supply and your ground army will be too weak.

- Specifically, Terran look at the Stargates or Expos to determine whether or not they should push. In order to draw the terran army out, just build stargates and beacon, but do not build Carriers just yet. Essentially, they believe mind games are key (Kangmin was then singled out for using this strategy). It was also mentioned that building one or two carriers to increase the number of Goliaths in the terran army was also a successful strategy in the past.

- The general flow of TvP seems to be about Protoss taking a lot of expansions, and Terran thinking how they should take down the Toss expos and have a center fight. The commentators mention that this is what the current protoss players do, and they lose because of it. Kangmin then mentioned that this strategy needs to be researched. He specifically mentions building cannons in odd places near the expo(not just around the nexus), to slow down the terran push, and use that opportunity to storm the terran army. He mentions that it's too easy for Terran to just push into the nexus because cannons are only around the nexus. Kangmin mentions that Protoss players should be concentrating on building the army WHILE accomplishing this cannon layout. The cannon is meant to simply slow down the terran push until you can storm them.

- They mention that it is currently an "Era of Multitasking", and there's a lot of multitasking play in TvZ or PvZ, but there isn't many plays like that in PvT. They mention there are currently no protoss players who can really do that.

- There has been no evolution in PvT matchup in the 10 years of Starcraft, although the other matchups had changed constantly.

- This is because Terran's optimum strategy is to turtle against Protoss until Terran gets their upgrades and push out at full army (since Mech > Protoss Army). This is why Protoss needs Arbiter recall to create small fights, but Terran has adapted to this, making fields of turrets and Science Vessels and EMPing every dot that appears on the minimap.

- Protoss Players need to think about more strategies -- even though Protoss has rediscovered the Arbiter and learned how to reuse it , their strategies have either been Arbiter -> Carrier or Reaver -> Carrier, aka, trying to oppose the Terran army through force.

- They talk about how Zerg (nearly) reached perfection through Jaedong, there are no players for Protoss that reaches this peak -- they're missing the "2%".

- To summarize Kangmin's point about PvT, the flow of the game goes like this. Protoss starts out by expanding, and then Terran comes with the "one shot" timing, and Protoss cannot stop this timing and lose. A system is needed for the Protoss to stop/stall the one shot timing in order to buy time.

- Kangmin: Even if Terran loses a bulk of their army, they can easily hit 200/200 in about 10 seconds. However, Protoss normally loses more than 100 supply in one go, so Protoss needs a lot of time to rebuild that supply. In this time, Terran normally expands during this time, and attacks at the same time, and that's why Protoss has been being pushed over. Protoss needs to research a "system" to protect their expansions using a small army. Kangmin's suggestion, again, is the system of cannons spread out along with high templar storms.

The discussion then shifted to "How can Effort beat Flash"

- If you're on autopilot mode in the beginning, you already lost. Speed up Zerglings or Mutas, etc, if you go a standard order, you cannot beat Flash. You need a "Fake".

- You need a build order advantage against Flash. There is no real way of beating Flash without it. Jaedong has shown this recently, keeping up with Terran's transitions and transitioning himself and overwhelming the Terran with Army.

- "Use more mind games". (as you can see I'm sort of tired of translating at this point)

- You must beat Flash in a macro game. You cannot beat Flash by going all in. Lay out the game for a Macro oriented game and "beat him"

- Why isn't anyone using Queens recently? Effort may need to use Queens to beat Flash -- Ensnaring M&M balls and broodling the Mech army, and Parasite for scouting.

- "Can Effort show signs of "Old Savior""?

- Commentators seem to be split -- one says Queen, one says Muta, Kangmin says Defiler (lol). "Use Larvae well" (lololol nice joke)
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
May 14 2010 18:11 GMT
#2
d web imo
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
guii
Profile Joined December 2009
Brazil31 Posts
May 14 2010 18:12 GMT
#3
Nice job! Thanks for the readin'!

I wish Kangmin could play exactly like he says in this episode!
KristianJS
Profile Joined October 2009
2107 Posts
May 14 2010 18:22 GMT
#4
Awesome, thanks for the translation!

This is so true: "If you're on autopilot mode in the beginning, you already lost."

You need to be 100% behind someone before you can stab them in the back
TheMunkey
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada470 Posts
May 14 2010 18:29 GMT
#5
awesome translations.

haha the joke in the end is pure gold.
Never give up
hyst.eric.al
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States2332 Posts
May 14 2010 18:36 GMT
#6
cheat codes, imo

good luck to effort though, i hope he has some devious things up his sleeve
Leta , BeSt, Calm fan forever! 김정우, I am sorry I ever lost faith in you.
J1.au
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Australia3596 Posts
May 14 2010 18:38 GMT
#7
Ty for the translation!
Nal_rAwr
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2611 Posts
May 14 2010 19:02 GMT
#8
ask kangmin you have the man right next to you

he reaver bulldogged flash won ezpz
Nony is Bonjwa
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
May 14 2010 19:09 GMT
#9
reaver bulldog isn't going to work in a best of series though
if you need one game, possibly, but that's pretty all-in
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
May 14 2010 19:15 GMT
#10
On May 15 2010 03:11 Bill Murray wrote:
d web imo



With better execution, and Flash scanning the beacon and thinking carriers, it MIGHT just work
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
thopol
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
Japan4560 Posts
May 14 2010 19:23 GMT
#11
On May 15 2010 04:15 Plexa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2010 03:11 Bill Murray wrote:
d web imo

*VOD*

With better execution, and Flash scanning the beacon and thinking carriers, it MIGHT just work

That was a great game. It would require impeccable micro to stop a second push but Kal's certainly capable of divine corsair micro.
wswordsmen
Profile Joined October 2007
United States987 Posts
May 14 2010 19:26 GMT
#12
Thanks for the translation.
amazingoopah
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1925 Posts
May 14 2010 19:33 GMT
#13
I think (Z)EffOrt should cede his finals slot and give it to (P)Nal_rA.... he's the only one who has beaten him in a while anyways, it seems!
eshlow
Profile Joined June 2008
United States5210 Posts
May 14 2010 19:33 GMT
#14
On May 15 2010 04:23 thopol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2010 04:15 Plexa wrote:
On May 15 2010 03:11 Bill Murray wrote:
d web imo

*VOD*

With better execution, and Flash scanning the beacon and thinking carriers, it MIGHT just work

That was a great game. It would require impeccable micro to stop a second push but Kal's certainly capable of divine corsair micro.


+ Show Spoiler +
Except Effort beat Kal 3-0

-_-
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
L0thar
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
987 Posts
May 14 2010 19:59 GMT
#15
On May 15 2010 04:33 amazingoopah wrote:
I think (Z)EffOrt should cede his finals slot and give it to (P)Nal_rA.... he's the only one who has beaten him in a while anyways, it seems!


Didn't Flash win next 2 games anyway? Or did they just play that one game?
SubtleArt
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
2710 Posts
May 14 2010 20:04 GMT
#16
nice, although I do find it odd that they say "even if terran loses bulk of his army, he can go back to 200/200 quickly while protoss takes longer to rebuild". In every single TvP ive ever played or watched its been the exact opposite.
Morrow on ZvP: "I'm not very confident in general vs Protoss because of the imbalance (Yes its imbalanced, get over it)."
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
May 14 2010 20:09 GMT
#17
On May 15 2010 05:04 SubtleArt wrote:
nice, although I do find it odd that they say "even if terran loses bulk of his army, he can go back to 200/200 quickly while protoss takes longer to rebuild". In every single TvP ive ever played or watched its been the exact opposite.

TvP =/= FvP
Moderator
Vasoline73
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States7821 Posts
May 14 2010 20:10 GMT
#18
- There has been no evolution in PvT matchup in the 10 years of Starcraft, although the other matchups had changed constantly.

I don't get how they can say this...
disciple
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
9070 Posts
May 14 2010 20:17 GMT
#19
PvT is alright, protoss are doing bad because a certain protoss is doing terrible. He needs to check some of these replays
[image loading]
Administrator"I'm a big deal." - ixmike88
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
May 14 2010 20:34 GMT
#20
On May 15 2010 05:17 disciple wrote:
PvT is alright, protoss are doing bad because a certain protoss is doing terrible. He needs to check some of these replays
[image loading]
Destination was a 66% P>T map though...
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
1 2 3 4 5 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Wardi Open
14:00
#71
WardiTV4719
Rex103
TKL 78
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Rex 103
TKL 78
MindelVK 18
StarCraft: Brood War
Rain 3146
Calm 1450
Jaedong 668
ggaemo 447
BeSt 360
Hyuk 340
Shuttle 311
Mini 286
firebathero 208
Light 206
[ Show more ]
Soulkey 152
Mind 133
actioN 129
Barracks 127
Snow 127
Rush 75
Zeus 62
PianO 53
Free 38
yabsab 36
Shinee 34
Yoon 28
soO 23
Terrorterran 21
Rock 18
HiyA 17
ajuk12(nOOB) 16
Dota 2
Gorgc6498
singsing2863
qojqva2434
Dendi666
420jenkins657
syndereN377
Counter-Strike
kennyS3665
byalli1646
fl0m1434
ptr_tv36
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King57
Other Games
hiko919
ceh9340
Hui .280
crisheroes256
Harstem181
QueenE88
Chillindude14
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• poizon28 25
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV418
League of Legends
• Jankos2408
• TFBlade1524
Upcoming Events
Monday Night Weeklies
34m
OSC
7h 34m
Replay Cast
16h 34m
RongYI Cup
18h 34m
Clem vs TriGGeR
Maru vs Creator
WardiTV Invitational
21h 34m
Replay Cast
1d 16h
RongYI Cup
1d 18h
herO vs Solar
WardiTV Invitational
1d 21h
The PondCast
2 days
HomeStory Cup
3 days
[ Show More ]
Korean StarCraft League
4 days
HomeStory Cup
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
HomeStory Cup
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
OSC Championship Season 13
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Acropolis #4 - TS4
Rongyi Cup S3
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S1: W6
Escore Tournament S1: W7
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Nations Cup 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.