The latest episode of OGN's 돌아온 뒷담화 talked about Protoss vs Terran (specifically, they talked about "how to beat Flash" for a bit) strategies. A summary of the strategies mentioned (assuming I translated it correctly)
I don't actually know the names of the commentators with the exception of Kangmin, so I won't label who said what, but a brief summary of strategies mentioned. I'm going to concentrate more on PvT since it was much more indepth.
- Flash is the favorite to beat the OSL. Kal has the best chance against Flash, and the commentators believe that Flash vs Kal will be very entertaining.
- Players need some sort of hidden card in order to make Flash attack, whether it be just going Carriers or taking massive amounts of Expos. Essentially, use Flash's timing sense against him -- make Flash believe that there is a timing window and draw him out, and use that "advantage" (i guess this refers to knowing that flash is attacking) + micro to deal with the army (Psi Storm, Stasis), and then go carriers in that transition. This is because if you go carriers before hand, it takes up too much supply and your ground army will be too weak.
- Specifically, Terran look at the Stargates or Expos to determine whether or not they should push. In order to draw the terran army out, just build stargates and beacon, but do not build Carriers just yet. Essentially, they believe mind games are key (Kangmin was then singled out for using this strategy). It was also mentioned that building one or two carriers to increase the number of Goliaths in the terran army was also a successful strategy in the past.
- The general flow of TvP seems to be about Protoss taking a lot of expansions, and Terran thinking how they should take down the Toss expos and have a center fight. The commentators mention that this is what the current protoss players do, and they lose because of it. Kangmin then mentioned that this strategy needs to be researched. He specifically mentions building cannons in odd places near the expo(not just around the nexus), to slow down the terran push, and use that opportunity to storm the terran army. He mentions that it's too easy for Terran to just push into the nexus because cannons are only around the nexus. Kangmin mentions that Protoss players should be concentrating on building the army WHILE accomplishing this cannon layout. The cannon is meant to simply slow down the terran push until you can storm them.
- They mention that it is currently an "Era of Multitasking", and there's a lot of multitasking play in TvZ or PvZ, but there isn't many plays like that in PvT. They mention there are currently no protoss players who can really do that.
- There has been no evolution in PvT matchup in the 10 years of Starcraft, although the other matchups had changed constantly.
- This is because Terran's optimum strategy is to turtle against Protoss until Terran gets their upgrades and push out at full army (since Mech > Protoss Army). This is why Protoss needs Arbiter recall to create small fights, but Terran has adapted to this, making fields of turrets and Science Vessels and EMPing every dot that appears on the minimap.
- Protoss Players need to think about more strategies -- even though Protoss has rediscovered the Arbiter and learned how to reuse it , their strategies have either been Arbiter -> Carrier or Reaver -> Carrier, aka, trying to oppose the Terran army through force.
- They talk about how Zerg (nearly) reached perfection through Jaedong, there are no players for Protoss that reaches this peak -- they're missing the "2%".
- To summarize Kangmin's point about PvT, the flow of the game goes like this. Protoss starts out by expanding, and then Terran comes with the "one shot" timing, and Protoss cannot stop this timing and lose. A system is needed for the Protoss to stop/stall the one shot timing in order to buy time.
- Kangmin: Even if Terran loses a bulk of their army, they can easily hit 200/200 in about 10 seconds. However, Protoss normally loses more than 100 supply in one go, so Protoss needs a lot of time to rebuild that supply. In this time, Terran normally expands during this time, and attacks at the same time, and that's why Protoss has been being pushed over. Protoss needs to research a "system" to protect their expansions using a small army. Kangmin's suggestion, again, is the system of cannons spread out along with high templar storms.
The discussion then shifted to "How can Effort beat Flash"
- If you're on autopilot mode in the beginning, you already lost. Speed up Zerglings or Mutas, etc, if you go a standard order, you cannot beat Flash. You need a "Fake".
- You need a build order advantage against Flash. There is no real way of beating Flash without it. Jaedong has shown this recently, keeping up with Terran's transitions and transitioning himself and overwhelming the Terran with Army.
- "Use more mind games". (as you can see I'm sort of tired of translating at this point)
- You must beat Flash in a macro game. You cannot beat Flash by going all in. Lay out the game for a Macro oriented game and "beat him"
- Why isn't anyone using Queens recently? Effort may need to use Queens to beat Flash -- Ensnaring M&M balls and broodling the Mech army, and Parasite for scouting.
- "Can Effort show signs of "Old Savior""?
- Commentators seem to be split -- one says Queen, one says Muta, Kangmin says Defiler (lol). "Use Larvae well" (lololol nice joke)
On May 15 2010 04:33 amazingoopah wrote: I think EffOrt should cede his finals slot and give it to Nal_rA.... he's the only one who has beaten him in a while anyways, it seems!
Didn't Flash win next 2 games anyway? Or did they just play that one game?
nice, although I do find it odd that they say "even if terran loses bulk of his army, he can go back to 200/200 quickly while protoss takes longer to rebuild". In every single TvP ive ever played or watched its been the exact opposite.
On May 15 2010 05:04 SubtleArt wrote: nice, although I do find it odd that they say "even if terran loses bulk of his army, he can go back to 200/200 quickly while protoss takes longer to rebuild". In every single TvP ive ever played or watched its been the exact opposite.
On May 15 2010 05:17 disciple wrote: PvT is alright, protoss are doing bad because a certain protoss is doing terrible. He needs to check some of these replays
wow, whoever said Queens might work against Flash are reaaaaaly optimistic, I don't think that could ever work unless Flash was already in a position to lose
- There has been no evolution in PvT matchup in the 10 years of Starcraft, although the other matchups had changed constantly.
I don't get how they can say this...
Same here. That's definitely wrong.
Perhaps they mean it hasn't gone through the same degree of evolution like the other matchups have. I mean, they admitted that Arbiters were rediscovered which is clearly an evolution of the PvT matchup.
- There has been no evolution in PvT matchup in the 10 years of Starcraft, although the other matchups had changed constantly.
I don't get how they can say this...
Same here. That's definitely wrong.
Perhaps they mean it hasn't gone through the same degree of evolution like the other matchups have. I mean, they admitted that Arbiters were rediscovered which is clearly an evolution of the PvT matchup.
Yeah probably less so than other matchups but still.
Arbiters were a HUGE evolution (made popular by Pusan btw ), but there's also been a shitload of (mostly aggressive) new Terran BOs, 12+ nexus, observer-less PvT (thanks to goons vs mines micro), etc etc.
The way progamers used to play TvP back in the Boxer/Garimto era days has absolutely nothing in common with how it's played right now.
- There has been no evolution in PvT matchup in the 10 years of Starcraft, although the other matchups had changed constantly.
I don't get how they can say this...
Same here. That's definitely wrong.
Perhaps they mean it hasn't gone through the same degree of evolution like the other matchups have. I mean, they admitted that Arbiters were rediscovered which is clearly an evolution of the PvT matchup.
Yeah probably less so than other matchups but still.
Arbiters were a HUGE evolution (made popular by Pusan btw ), but there's also been a shitload of (mostly aggressive) new Terran BOs, 12+ nexus, observer-less PvT (thanks to goons vs mines micro), etc etc.
The way progamers used to play TvP back in the Boxer/Garimto era days has absolutely nothing in common with how it's played right now.
Compare it to the evolution of TvZ and ZvP. You have basically tweaks in build order (rearrangement of buildings) compared to the mind-set changes that Savior and Bisu brought along in ZvT and PvZ respectively.
I think it'd be interesting to see how one would want to beat Flash in a TvT, the match-up that really hasn't changed much.
There is actually 2 points that really stuck out to me. Carrier fakes. Pump 1 carrier and use observers to see how much goliaths Flash pumps in response, then go more carriers or ground army depending on terran, which will probably horribly screw up Flash's sense of carrier tech switch push timing.
Also build cannons not only near nexus. Good terrans like to put down a shit ton of mines all over the map for free scouting and map control. Cannons in good places around the map will really damage the terran's ability to use mines to gain control and scout. It will also force the terran to use more attention on vultures when they move out to harass.
It's too bad I never will be able to use this advice, the backstab technique works much better in D+ levels.
Zergs have an excellent shot of destroying Flash with 2 hatch mutas+good micro. Almost every time Flash got 2 hatched, it did terrible damage relative to how good Flash is supposed to play.
- There has been no evolution in PvT matchup in the 10 years of Starcraft, although the other matchups had changed constantly.
I don't get how they can say this...
Same here. That's definitely wrong.
Perhaps they mean it hasn't gone through the same degree of evolution like the other matchups have. I mean, they admitted that Arbiters were rediscovered which is clearly an evolution of the PvT matchup.
Yeah probably less so than other matchups but still.
Arbiters were a HUGE evolution (made popular by Pusan btw ), but there's also been a shitload of (mostly aggressive) new Terran BOs, 12+ nexus, observer-less PvT (thanks to goons vs mines micro), etc etc.
The way progamers used to play TvP back in the Boxer/Garimto era days has absolutely nothing in common with how it's played right now.
It was Stork, actually but thats one popular misconception I'm not to worried about correcting lol. Pusan built upon what Stork brought to the table in the SLs.
On May 15 2010 07:40 lone_hydra wrote: There is actually 2 points that really stuck out to me. Carrier fakes. Pump 1 carrier and use observers to see how much goliaths Flash pumps in response, then go more carriers or ground army depending on terran, which will probably horribly screw up Flash's sense of carrier tech switch push timing.
Also build cannons not only near nexus. Good terrans like to put down a shit ton of mines all over the map for free scouting and map control. Cannons in good places around the map will really damage the terran's ability to use mines to gain control and scout. It will also force the terran to use more attention on vultures when they move out to harass.
It's too bad I never will be able to use this advice, the backstab technique works much better in D+ levels.
Yea seriously whatever Kang Min is talking about is almost certainly way too high level for 99.9% of Teamliquid users.
On May 15 2010 03:04 Milkis wrote: - Players need some sort of hidden card in order to make Flash attack, whether it be just going Carriers or taking massive amounts of Expos. Essentially, use Flash's timing sense against him -- make Flash believe that there is a timing window and draw him out, and use that "advantage" (i guess this refers to knowing that flash is attacking) + micro to deal with the army (Psi Storm, Stasis), and then go carriers in that transition. This is because if you go carriers before hand, it takes up too much supply and your ground army will be too weak.
- Specifically, Terran look at the Stargates or Expos to determine whether or not they should push. In order to draw the terran army out, just build stargates and beacon, but do not build Carriers just yet. Essentially, they believe mind games are key (Kangmin was then singled out for using this strategy). It was also mentioned that building one or two carriers to increase the number of Goliaths in the terran army was also a successful strategy in the past.
Best example of this recently is probably Pure vs Flash on MP.
Pure could have done so much more if he just would have faked carriers instead. :|
The problem is that, as I see it, there are exactly three Protoss players who have a "good" chance at winning over Flash if they are in peak form. But none of them (Bisu, Stork, Jangbi) are in peak form. On the whole, the three of them are taking losses left and right at the moment and don't look anything close to ready to take on Sea or Baby, let alone Flash who is right now in a class entirely of his own, just like the four bonjwas before him. A crown is just about ready to be dropped on Flash's head and a golden mouse will accompany the coronation ceremony. At this point, only Jaedong looks ready to step up to the plate and deny Flash that claim. (Because, when it comes to the word "bonjwa," there can be only one.)
Regarding evolution of PvT/TvP, what they are saying is entirely correct. Fundamentally speaking, all of the strategies today are just "improvements" on strategies that have been around since 2004ish, and most or all of these strategies have their roots in the time of Garimto or even earlier.
Since the time of Ra/Reach/Kingdom, the evolution in this match-up has been nothing more than a "streamlining" and re-tailoring of old ideas. The last real evolution in the fundamental nature of the match-up would probably be due to NaDa circa early/mid 2001, who played a huge role in shifting the mentality from an early game plan to a midgame plan, but even then, the notion of late game PvT being based on macro heavy center battles comes way before then.
If you compare to TvZ/ZvT or ZvP/PvZ, the difference is unimaginable. Defilers especially have changed the nature of the game tremendously.
I would give him a sweet Heater. And plug it into the same breaker that works for his computer. Chances are, when he turns it on, its going to crash his computer.
On May 15 2010 08:21 cursor wrote: I would give him a sweet Heater. And plug it into the same breaker that works for his computer. Chances are, when he turns it on, its going to crash his computer.
On May 15 2010 08:11 Mortality wrote: The problem is that, as I see it, there are exactly three Protoss players who have a "good" chance at winning over Flash if they are in peak form. But none of them (Bisu, Stork, Jangbi) are in peak form. On the whole, the three of them are taking losses left and right at the moment and don't look anything close to ready to take on Sea or Baby, let alone Flash who is right now in a class entirely of his own, just like the four bonjwas before him. A crown is just about ready to be dropped on Flash's head and a golden mouse will accompany the coronation ceremony. At this point, only Jaedong looks ready to step up to the plate and deny Flash that claim. (Because, when it comes to the word "bonjwa," there can be only one.)
Well I think Movie has a better chance than either Jangbi and Bisu+ Show Spoiler +
And, until seeing the series, I though that free had as good a chance as anyone as well
I think the point is, regardless of how good anyone is right now, the only way to beat FlaSh is play the matchup in a way that he's never seen before, whether it's TvT, PvT, or ZvT.
On May 15 2010 08:11 Mortality wrote: The problem is that, as I see it, there are exactly three Protoss players who have a "good" chance at winning over Flash if they are in peak form. But none of them (Bisu, Stork, Jangbi) are in peak form. On the whole, the three of them are taking losses left and right at the moment and don't look anything close to ready to take on Sea or Baby, let alone Flash who is right now in a class entirely of his own, just like the four bonjwas before him. A crown is just about ready to be dropped on Flash's head and a golden mouse will accompany the coronation ceremony. At this point, only Jaedong looks ready to step up to the plate and deny Flash that claim. (Because, when it comes to the word "bonjwa," there can be only one.)
Well I think Movie has a better chance than either Jangbi and Bisu+ Show Spoiler +
And, until seeing the series, I though that free had as good a chance as anyone as well
I think the point is, regardless of how good anyone is right now, the only way to beat FlaSh is play the matchup in a way that he's never seen before, whether it's TvT, PvT, or ZvT.
I think with the players in their current condition (and the current maps), Kal has the best chance, with Stork coming in second. Kal vs Flash games are usually very engaging. Jangbi and Bisu don't really have what it takes atm (and imo neither does Movie). But I agree that regardless of the player, traiditional PvT won't do much good.
On May 15 2010 08:11 Mortality wrote: The problem is that, as I see it, there are exactly three Protoss players who have a "good" chance at winning over Flash if they are in peak form. But none of them (Bisu, Stork, Jangbi) are in peak form. On the whole, the three of them are taking losses left and right at the moment and don't look anything close to ready to take on Sea or Baby, let alone Flash who is right now in a class entirely of his own, just like the four bonjwas before him. A crown is just about ready to be dropped on Flash's head and a golden mouse will accompany the coronation ceremony. At this point, only Jaedong looks ready to step up to the plate and deny Flash that claim. (Because, when it comes to the word "bonjwa," there can be only one.)
Well I think Movie has a better chance than either Jangbi and Bisu+ Show Spoiler +
And, until seeing the series, I though that free had as good a chance as anyone as well
I think the point is, regardless of how good anyone is right now, the only way to beat FlaSh is play the matchup in a way that he's never seen before, whether it's TvT, PvT, or ZvT.
I think with the players in their current condition (and the current maps), Kal has the best chance, with Stork coming in second. Kal vs Flash games are usually very engaging. Jangbi and Bisu don't really have what it takes atm (and imo neither does Movie). But I agree that regardless of the player, traiditional PvT won't do much good.
Movie? Are you kidding? Movie's PvT has always been a bit flaky and has only rarely shown us moments that hinted at something spectacular. What makes Movie such a solid player is his strong PvZ and his still not entirely tapped potential. Honestly, in my opinion he made the OSL finals too early. He hasn't yet fully bloomed out into what he could be.
Bisu and Jangbi are among the all time best PvTers and it was not that long ago when they were dropping jaws left and right. Moreover, in a recent interview, Really said that he still thinks Jangbi is the #1 PvTer despite Jangbi's lackluster performances in televised games.
Kal is the player who is most consistently showing us strong performances in PvT right now. It's hard to say if Stork or Free is second. Free maintains #1 PvT ELO, but he can be a bit sloppy at times. Stork isn't exactly at his best ever right now, but makes a strong argument for #1 all time PvT player (he's been among the top, if not the top, for the entire time period of 2005 until now).
But really, Kal doesn't have that "extra 2%" that Bisu/Stork/Jangbi at their best have presented us with in the past. If you look at Kal vs Flash from the past, the record is lopsided and while fans will say "but those were some close matches," at the end of the day, close is no cigar. And Kal has only ever "come close."
I actually don't think that the only way to beat Flash is to hit him with something brand new. He's on the verge of "bonjwa" and is pretty much guaranteed to earn that title unless there is some divine intervention at work (pray to god, Jaedong, pray to god...). But Flash can lose, even without a revolution. You just have to step up to his level. The issue is that there's no one who looks like he can do it with any semblance of regularity. And that's why Flash will be crowned king. That's why Jaedong never was crowned king. That's what the "b-word" is all about.
Jaedong can do it tbh... his preparation for bo5 is immense. The power outrage joke is worn out, Jaedong could have done it himself then and he could do it now. Flash looks amazing of course, but i believe its easier to be consistent in terran matchups than zerg.
On May 15 2010 08:11 Mortality wrote: The problem is that, as I see it, there are exactly three Protoss players who have a "good" chance at winning over Flash if they are in peak form. But none of them (Bisu, Stork, Jangbi) are in peak form. On the whole, the three of them are taking losses left and right at the moment and don't look anything close to ready to take on Sea or Baby, let alone Flash who is right now in a class entirely of his own, just like the four bonjwas before him. A crown is just about ready to be dropped on Flash's head and a golden mouse will accompany the coronation ceremony. At this point, only Jaedong looks ready to step up to the plate and deny Flash that claim. (Because, when it comes to the word "bonjwa," there can be only one.)
Well I think Movie has a better chance than either Jangbi and Bisu+ Show Spoiler +
And, until seeing the series, I though that free had as good a chance as anyone as well
I think the point is, regardless of how good anyone is right now, the only way to beat FlaSh is play the matchup in a way that he's never seen before, whether it's TvT, PvT, or ZvT.
I think with the players in their current condition (and the current maps), Kal has the best chance, with Stork coming in second. Kal vs Flash games are usually very engaging. Jangbi and Bisu don't really have what it takes atm (and imo neither does Movie). But I agree that regardless of the player, traiditional PvT won't do much good.
I actually don't think that the only way to beat Flash is to hit him with something brand new. He's on the verge of "bonjwa" and is pretty much guaranteed to earn that title unless there is some divine intervention at work (pray to god, Jaedong, pray to god...). But Flash can lose, even without a revolution. You just have to step up to his level. The issue is that there's no one who looks like he can do it with any semblance of regularity. And that's why Flash will be crowned king. That's why Jaedong never was crowned king. That's what the "b-word" is all about.
...Ridiculously long post...
And thats why, because its so hard to step up to his level right now, its better to try something new to beat Flash. But yes, he easily looks like he can be beaten in TvT and TvZ if you watch the games, but his TvP is just deadly.
Zerg and terran players have to try to break a a thick wood plank with a karate chop, hard to do but everyone knows its possible. Besides Kal on a very good day, Flash just runs over Toss, I watch FvP, and its like the toss player is trying to break a steal wall with their fists.
On May 15 2010 08:11 Mortality wrote: The problem is that, as I see it, there are exactly three Protoss players who have a "good" chance at winning over Flash if they are in peak form. But none of them (Bisu, Stork, Jangbi) are in peak form. On the whole, the three of them are taking losses left and right at the moment and don't look anything close to ready to take on Sea or Baby, let alone Flash who is right now in a class entirely of his own, just like the four bonjwas before him. A crown is just about ready to be dropped on Flash's head and a golden mouse will accompany the coronation ceremony. At this point, only Jaedong looks ready to step up to the plate and deny Flash that claim. (Because, when it comes to the word "bonjwa," there can be only one.)
Well I think Movie has a better chance than either Jangbi and Bisu+ Show Spoiler +
And, until seeing the series, I though that free had as good a chance as anyone as well
I think the point is, regardless of how good anyone is right now, the only way to beat FlaSh is play the matchup in a way that he's never seen before, whether it's TvT, PvT, or ZvT.
I think with the players in their current condition (and the current maps), Kal has the best chance, with Stork coming in second. Kal vs Flash games are usually very engaging. Jangbi and Bisu don't really have what it takes atm (and imo neither does Movie). But I agree that regardless of the player, traiditional PvT won't do much good.
I actually don't think that the only way to beat Flash is to hit him with something brand new. He's on the verge of "bonjwa" and is pretty much guaranteed to earn that title unless there is some divine intervention at work (pray to god, Jaedong, pray to god...). But Flash can lose, even without a revolution. You just have to step up to his level. The issue is that there's no one who looks like he can do it with any semblance of regularity. And that's why Flash will be crowned king. That's why Jaedong never was crowned king. That's what the "b-word" is all about.
...Ridiculously long post...
And thats why, because its so hard to step up to his level right now, its better to try something new to beat Flash. But yes, he easily looks like he can be beaten in TvT and TvZ if you watch the games, but his TvP is just deadly.
Zerg and terran players have to try to break a a thick wood plank with a karate chop, hard to do but everyone knows its possible. Besides Kal on a very good day, Flash just runs over Toss, I watch FvP, and its like the toss player is trying to break a steal wall with their fists.
Ironically, Flash considers TvP his weakest match-up. And frankly? I agree with his assessment.
I wrote up a long and drawn out argument as to why I feel this way, but it sounded really weak when I read it so now it is deleted. Fundamentally speaking, I feel like Protoss players habitually let Flash get away calculated gambles. It's not really "luck" so much as metagame, which Flash seems to be on top of right now.
The statistics say TvP is Flash's best right now. It's the only match-up where he hasn't dropped a loss in his last 10 games. He now has the longest TvP win streak in history. I don't normally argue against the statistics but my gut is practically screaming at me that there's more to this picture than the statistics alone will tell you.
On May 15 2010 10:35 infinity2k9 wrote: Jaedong can do it tbh... his preparation for bo5 is immense. The power outrage joke is worn out, Jaedong could have done it himself then and he could do it now. Flash looks amazing of course, but i believe its easier to be consistent in terran matchups than zerg.
The power outage wasn't a joke. It ruined what could've been the best series ever.
It's easier to be more consistent at Terran? REALLY? Going down the list of top Terrans is like reading a who's who of inconsistent players.
On May 15 2010 10:35 infinity2k9 wrote: Jaedong can do it tbh... his preparation for bo5 is immense. The power outrage joke is worn out, Jaedong could have done it himself then and he could do it now. Flash looks amazing of course, but i believe its easier to be consistent in terran matchups than zerg.
The power outage wasn't a joke. It ruined what could've been the best series ever.
True. It was really too bad. However, it was still a pretty good series.
On May 15 2010 10:35 infinity2k9 wrote: Jaedong can do it tbh... his preparation for bo5 is immense. The power outrage joke is worn out, Jaedong could have done it himself then and he could do it now. Flash looks amazing of course, but i believe its easier to be consistent in terran matchups than zerg.
It's easier to be more consistent at Terran? REALLY? Going down the list of top Terrans is like reading a who's who of inconsistent players.
On May 15 2010 10:35 infinity2k9 wrote: Jaedong can do it tbh... his preparation for bo5 is immense. The power outrage joke is worn out, Jaedong could have done it himself then and he could do it now. Flash looks amazing of course, but i believe its easier to be consistent in terran matchups than zerg.
The power outage wasn't a joke. It ruined what could've been the best series ever.
True. It was really too bad. However, it was still a pretty good series.
On May 15 2010 10:35 infinity2k9 wrote: Jaedong can do it tbh... his preparation for bo5 is immense. The power outrage joke is worn out, Jaedong could have done it himself then and he could do it now. Flash looks amazing of course, but i believe its easier to be consistent in terran matchups than zerg.
It's easier to be more consistent at Terran? REALLY? Going down the list of top Terrans is like reading a who's who of inconsistent players.
Nada's the man.
Nada isn't a top Terran anymore. I was refering to current ones.
Protoss have killer spells vs terrans, but they often only use 1 or 2 of them at most.
Statis is strong, but if used improperly, it creates a funnel for protoss units, which is really bad. Psi storm is even stronger, but templars are slow and easily sniped D Web is stronger than both of the previous spells, but it's also more expensive Feedback completely nullifies Vessels, but they're useless for anything else.
If a toss can handle casting 4 spells at once, terran armies will melt considerably easier compared to using pure zeal/goon.
On May 15 2010 06:53 PoP wrote: Yeah probably less so than other matchups but still.
Arbiters were a HUGE evolution (made popular by Pusan btw ), but there's also been a shitload of (mostly aggressive) new Terran BOs, 12+ nexus, observer-less PvT (thanks to goons vs mines micro), etc etc.
The way progamers used to play TvP back in the Boxer/Garimto era days has absolutely nothing in common with how it's played right now.
It was Stork, actually but thats one popular misconception I'm not to worried about correcting lol. Pusan built upon what Stork brought to the table in the SLs.
Hm, always thought it was Pusan. I was following almost 100% of the progames back then, then in a PvT game on Rush Hour 2 Pusan started building many arbiters and using them to stasis and stuff, so I thought it was coming from him.
Must've missed a bunch of games then. Do you have a link to the first game Stork used them in?
On May 15 2010 16:36 imBLIND wrote: Protoss have killer spells vs terrans, but they often only use 1 or 2 of them at most.
Statis is strong, but if used improperly, it creates a funnel for protoss units, which is really bad. Psi storm is even stronger, but templars are slow and easily sniped D Web is stronger than both of the previous spells, but it's also more expensive Feedback completely nullifies Vessels, but they're useless for anything else.
If a toss can handle casting 4 spells at once, terran armies will melt considerably easier compared to using pure zeal/goon.
But...this dream of mine is short-lived.
1.D web,just like storms,can be easily dodged except it doesnt deal damage and 125energy=tech 2.on feedback's case, You would only worry about vessels when recalling. They often emp the army but sometime they can't because of multitasking(they are doing other things). DAs are expensive your opponent will have more vessels than your DAs. 3. Effort won 3-0
On May 15 2010 10:35 infinity2k9 wrote: Jaedong can do it tbh... his preparation for bo5 is immense. The power outrage joke is worn out, Jaedong could have done it himself then and he could do it now. Flash looks amazing of course, but i believe its easier to be consistent in terran matchups than zerg.
The power outage wasn't a joke. It ruined what could've been the best series ever.
It's easier to be more consistent at Terran? REALLY? Going down the list of top Terrans is like reading a who's who of inconsistent players.
u look at the list of top zergs, list of top protosses, then yeah, terrans are looking pretty consistent.
i dont know if its me missing some fun games, but most of the games i watched nowadays are protosses trying to beat flash with gateway obs opening. kangmin beat flash with a reaver opening, m18m beat flash with DT opening, best beat flash last season when flash pushed out and got stopped by 4 storms that he didnt expect
its clear that its going to be impossible to stop flash in a macro game
i really think kangmin (Nal_rA) has a good pt. at this stage, no player can hope to play straight up and expect to beat flash. one can only hope that specially pre'ed and map specific builds tailored for the match will stand any reasonable chance vs flash.
its like back when Nal_rA cannon rushed savior in his prime. the rush was very well thought out that would not have worked on any other map. you simply need to innovate some never-seen-before tricks to beat an opponent who's skills are clearly out of your league.
Thanks for translation. I really like the idea to build cannons in proximity to your expos to stall Terran and storm to soften up the mech army. And that will maybe give additional protection against guerilla Vultures which do so much harass damage to tosses expos.
Protoss is a race tailored for micro + spells. The amount of multitasking required to do so is insane - apart from having godly game sense and macro, u must be able to perfectly micro ur army too. That was why bisu was raping people left and right during his prime - the sktt1 coaches said that compared to best in practice, he was lacking creativity and also was worser compared to best
However what made him stand out so much and his dominance in pvz last time was the ability of multitasking. The key thing that protosses need to do right now is not to macro a huge army to beat flash, rather macro a huge army and micro the huge army into success
Flash sometimes think too much about what his opponent is doing which caused most of his losses. The best way to beat him is to fake, nal_ra couldn't have said it better. If u play straight up very likely u lose, only stork who don't fuck up can beat him using goon/zeal. Jangbi and kal aren't exceptional at ground forces in pvt, normally they need carriers/arbiters and harrass to work in their favour. Bisu had beaten him because he fake a lot builds in 2008. Flash perfected the art of terran's cost efficiency and play very defensive indeed.
The best part about this is now that the commentators have spoken of strategies that might beat Flash, Flash can now practice against those strategies and have a general counter/response to the threat. Woooooooooooo
Watch out; Flash may actually be lurking this forum under a cleverly-crafted alias and with the use of an online translator engine and then say "lolol, noob foreigners"
On May 15 2010 06:53 PoP wrote: Yeah probably less so than other matchups but still.
Arbiters were a HUGE evolution (made popular by Pusan btw ), but there's also been a shitload of (mostly aggressive) new Terran BOs, 12+ nexus, observer-less PvT (thanks to goons vs mines micro), etc etc.
The way progamers used to play TvP back in the Boxer/Garimto era days has absolutely nothing in common with how it's played right now.
It was Stork, actually but thats one popular misconception I'm not to worried about correcting lol. Pusan built upon what Stork brought to the table in the SLs.
Hm, always thought it was Pusan. I was following almost 100% of the progames back then, then in a PvT game on Rush Hour 2 Pusan started building many arbiters and using them to stasis and stuff, so I thought it was coming from him.
Must've missed a bunch of games then. Do you have a link to the first game Stork used them in?
You're right, Pusan is the player who initiated Arbiter. And Anytime made it popular. At least, Pusan himself always claim to be the one who started in many episodes of Diwt Dahm Hwa.
Snow did exactly what the commentators have suggested vs Flash, he recalled templars with the rest of his army to storm tanks. He also used the fleet beacon in his base to bait flash into pushing towards Snow's expos, but crushed the push with a large ground force and some great flanking. I don't recall seeing a single cannon though lol.
The cannons were at 11 o clock with the fake base to stall. You know.. you go up there, spread thin, get recalled on twice... That's enough time for carriers. Sweet.
Very well played by Snow. He could have gone either way once he had five bases up. The important thing is - he didn't blindly go for carriers as soon as he had the resources. He predicted Flash's timing push, dealt with it, and then took down the 10o'clock base accordingly. Cool as hell. Flash had no money left, no army to speak of and gg'd before the onslaught of carriers. Good game Snow. Flash got outplayed
On May 15 2010 05:17 disciple wrote: PvT is alright, protoss are doing bad because a certain protoss is doing terrible. He needs to check some of these replays
On May 15 2010 21:20 streamofhonour wrote: Protoss is a race tailored for micro + spells. The amount of multitasking required to do so is insane - apart from having godly game sense and macro, u must be able to perfectly micro ur army too. That was why bisu was raping people left and right during his prime - the sktt1 coaches said that compared to best in practice, he was lacking creativity and also was worser compared to best
However what made him stand out so much and his dominance in pvz last time was the ability of multitasking. The key thing that protosses need to do right now is not to macro a huge army to beat flash, rather macro a huge army and micro the huge army into success
wtf toss is the ez race. how hard is it to t click t click t click t click 1a2a3a4a?
On May 15 2010 21:20 streamofhonour wrote: Protoss is a race tailored for micro + spells. The amount of multitasking required to do so is insane - apart from having godly game sense and macro, u must be able to perfectly micro ur army too. That was why bisu was raping people left and right during his prime - the sktt1 coaches said that compared to best in practice, he was lacking creativity and also was worser compared to best
However what made him stand out so much and his dominance in pvz last time was the ability of multitasking. The key thing that protosses need to do right now is not to macro a huge army to beat flash, rather macro a huge army and micro the huge army into success
wtf toss is the ez race. how hard is it to t click t click t click t click 1a2a3a4a?
Stop it, it's not worth pointing out the challenges you face. If you were any good all, that ^ wouldn't stop your ball of death
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i42.tinypic.com/w8b5hd.jpg)
but thats one popular misconception I'm not to worried about correcting lol. Pusan built upon what Stork brought to the table in the SLs.
![[image loading]](http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3413/mutley2.gif)
