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How to beat Flash: Commentator Edition.

Forum Index > BW General
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Milkis
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-14 18:46:39
May 14 2010 18:04 GMT
#1
The latest episode of OGN's 돌아온 뒷담화 talked about Protoss vs Terran (specifically, they talked about "how to beat Flash" for a bit) strategies. A summary of the strategies mentioned (assuming I translated it correctly)

I don't actually know the names of the commentators with the exception of Kangmin, so I won't label who said what, but a brief summary of strategies mentioned. I'm going to concentrate more on PvT since it was much more indepth.

- Flash is the favorite to beat the OSL. Kal has the best chance against Flash, and the commentators believe that Flash vs Kal will be very entertaining.

- Players need some sort of hidden card in order to make Flash attack, whether it be just going Carriers or taking massive amounts of Expos. Essentially, use Flash's timing sense against him -- make Flash believe that there is a timing window and draw him out, and use that "advantage" (i guess this refers to knowing that flash is attacking) + micro to deal with the army (Psi Storm, Stasis), and then go carriers in that transition. This is because if you go carriers before hand, it takes up too much supply and your ground army will be too weak.

- Specifically, Terran look at the Stargates or Expos to determine whether or not they should push. In order to draw the terran army out, just build stargates and beacon, but do not build Carriers just yet. Essentially, they believe mind games are key (Kangmin was then singled out for using this strategy). It was also mentioned that building one or two carriers to increase the number of Goliaths in the terran army was also a successful strategy in the past.

- The general flow of TvP seems to be about Protoss taking a lot of expansions, and Terran thinking how they should take down the Toss expos and have a center fight. The commentators mention that this is what the current protoss players do, and they lose because of it. Kangmin then mentioned that this strategy needs to be researched. He specifically mentions building cannons in odd places near the expo(not just around the nexus), to slow down the terran push, and use that opportunity to storm the terran army. He mentions that it's too easy for Terran to just push into the nexus because cannons are only around the nexus. Kangmin mentions that Protoss players should be concentrating on building the army WHILE accomplishing this cannon layout. The cannon is meant to simply slow down the terran push until you can storm them.

- They mention that it is currently an "Era of Multitasking", and there's a lot of multitasking play in TvZ or PvZ, but there isn't many plays like that in PvT. They mention there are currently no protoss players who can really do that.

- There has been no evolution in PvT matchup in the 10 years of Starcraft, although the other matchups had changed constantly.

- This is because Terran's optimum strategy is to turtle against Protoss until Terran gets their upgrades and push out at full army (since Mech > Protoss Army). This is why Protoss needs Arbiter recall to create small fights, but Terran has adapted to this, making fields of turrets and Science Vessels and EMPing every dot that appears on the minimap.

- Protoss Players need to think about more strategies -- even though Protoss has rediscovered the Arbiter and learned how to reuse it , their strategies have either been Arbiter -> Carrier or Reaver -> Carrier, aka, trying to oppose the Terran army through force.

- They talk about how Zerg (nearly) reached perfection through Jaedong, there are no players for Protoss that reaches this peak -- they're missing the "2%".

- To summarize Kangmin's point about PvT, the flow of the game goes like this. Protoss starts out by expanding, and then Terran comes with the "one shot" timing, and Protoss cannot stop this timing and lose. A system is needed for the Protoss to stop/stall the one shot timing in order to buy time.

- Kangmin: Even if Terran loses a bulk of their army, they can easily hit 200/200 in about 10 seconds. However, Protoss normally loses more than 100 supply in one go, so Protoss needs a lot of time to rebuild that supply. In this time, Terran normally expands during this time, and attacks at the same time, and that's why Protoss has been being pushed over. Protoss needs to research a "system" to protect their expansions using a small army. Kangmin's suggestion, again, is the system of cannons spread out along with high templar storms.

The discussion then shifted to "How can Effort beat Flash"

- If you're on autopilot mode in the beginning, you already lost. Speed up Zerglings or Mutas, etc, if you go a standard order, you cannot beat Flash. You need a "Fake".

- You need a build order advantage against Flash. There is no real way of beating Flash without it. Jaedong has shown this recently, keeping up with Terran's transitions and transitioning himself and overwhelming the Terran with Army.

- "Use more mind games". (as you can see I'm sort of tired of translating at this point)

- You must beat Flash in a macro game. You cannot beat Flash by going all in. Lay out the game for a Macro oriented game and "beat him"

- Why isn't anyone using Queens recently? Effort may need to use Queens to beat Flash -- Ensnaring M&M balls and broodling the Mech army, and Parasite for scouting.

- "Can Effort show signs of "Old Savior""?

- Commentators seem to be split -- one says Queen, one says Muta, Kangmin says Defiler (lol). "Use Larvae well" (lololol nice joke)
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
May 14 2010 18:11 GMT
#2
d web imo
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
guii
Profile Joined December 2009
Brazil31 Posts
May 14 2010 18:12 GMT
#3
Nice job! Thanks for the readin'!

I wish Kangmin could play exactly like he says in this episode!
KristianJS
Profile Joined October 2009
2107 Posts
May 14 2010 18:22 GMT
#4
Awesome, thanks for the translation!

This is so true: "If you're on autopilot mode in the beginning, you already lost."

You need to be 100% behind someone before you can stab them in the back
TheMunkey
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada470 Posts
May 14 2010 18:29 GMT
#5
awesome translations.

haha the joke in the end is pure gold.
Never give up
hyst.eric.al
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States2332 Posts
May 14 2010 18:36 GMT
#6
cheat codes, imo

good luck to effort though, i hope he has some devious things up his sleeve
Leta , BeSt, Calm fan forever! 김정우, I am sorry I ever lost faith in you.
J1.au
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Australia3596 Posts
May 14 2010 18:38 GMT
#7
Ty for the translation!
Nal_rAwr
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2611 Posts
May 14 2010 19:02 GMT
#8
ask kangmin you have the man right next to you

he reaver bulldogged flash won ezpz
Nony is Bonjwa
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
May 14 2010 19:09 GMT
#9
reaver bulldog isn't going to work in a best of series though
if you need one game, possibly, but that's pretty all-in
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
May 14 2010 19:15 GMT
#10
On May 15 2010 03:11 Bill Murray wrote:
d web imo



With better execution, and Flash scanning the beacon and thinking carriers, it MIGHT just work
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
thopol
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
Japan4560 Posts
May 14 2010 19:23 GMT
#11
On May 15 2010 04:15 Plexa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2010 03:11 Bill Murray wrote:
d web imo

*VOD*

With better execution, and Flash scanning the beacon and thinking carriers, it MIGHT just work

That was a great game. It would require impeccable micro to stop a second push but Kal's certainly capable of divine corsair micro.
wswordsmen
Profile Joined October 2007
United States987 Posts
May 14 2010 19:26 GMT
#12
Thanks for the translation.
amazingoopah
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1925 Posts
May 14 2010 19:33 GMT
#13
I think (Z)EffOrt should cede his finals slot and give it to (P)Nal_rA.... he's the only one who has beaten him in a while anyways, it seems!
eshlow
Profile Joined June 2008
United States5210 Posts
May 14 2010 19:33 GMT
#14
On May 15 2010 04:23 thopol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2010 04:15 Plexa wrote:
On May 15 2010 03:11 Bill Murray wrote:
d web imo

*VOD*

With better execution, and Flash scanning the beacon and thinking carriers, it MIGHT just work

That was a great game. It would require impeccable micro to stop a second push but Kal's certainly capable of divine corsair micro.


+ Show Spoiler +
Except Effort beat Kal 3-0

-_-
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
L0thar
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
987 Posts
May 14 2010 19:59 GMT
#15
On May 15 2010 04:33 amazingoopah wrote:
I think (Z)EffOrt should cede his finals slot and give it to (P)Nal_rA.... he's the only one who has beaten him in a while anyways, it seems!


Didn't Flash win next 2 games anyway? Or did they just play that one game?
SubtleArt
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
2710 Posts
May 14 2010 20:04 GMT
#16
nice, although I do find it odd that they say "even if terran loses bulk of his army, he can go back to 200/200 quickly while protoss takes longer to rebuild". In every single TvP ive ever played or watched its been the exact opposite.
Morrow on ZvP: "I'm not very confident in general vs Protoss because of the imbalance (Yes its imbalanced, get over it)."
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
May 14 2010 20:09 GMT
#17
On May 15 2010 05:04 SubtleArt wrote:
nice, although I do find it odd that they say "even if terran loses bulk of his army, he can go back to 200/200 quickly while protoss takes longer to rebuild". In every single TvP ive ever played or watched its been the exact opposite.

TvP =/= FvP
Moderator
Vasoline73
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States7799 Posts
May 14 2010 20:10 GMT
#18
- There has been no evolution in PvT matchup in the 10 years of Starcraft, although the other matchups had changed constantly.

I don't get how they can say this...
disciple
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
9070 Posts
May 14 2010 20:17 GMT
#19
PvT is alright, protoss are doing bad because a certain protoss is doing terrible. He needs to check some of these replays
[image loading]
Administrator"I'm a big deal." - ixmike88
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
May 14 2010 20:34 GMT
#20
On May 15 2010 05:17 disciple wrote:
PvT is alright, protoss are doing bad because a certain protoss is doing terrible. He needs to check some of these replays
[image loading]
Destination was a 66% P>T map though...
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
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