• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 18:11
CEST 00:11
KST 07:11
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 243ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12
Community News
Weekly Cups (Aug 3-9): Protoss get shut out7RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-2212Weekly Cups (July 27-Aug 2): SHIN's big week0SC4ALL II: Brood War - $2500 - Dec 5-69SC4ALL II announced - $10,000 prize pool, Dec 5-64
StarCraft 2
General
Protoss AoE skill expression Weekly Cups (Aug 3-9): Protoss get shut out SC4ALL: II Talent Announcement! SC4ALL II: StarCraft 2 Player Announcement 5/8 August World Ranking: Clem climbs to #2
Tourneys
2026 KungFu Cup Announcement PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22 RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 538 Media Blackout The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 537 Hostile Territory Mutation # 536 Railroad Switch
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion ASL22 General Discussion [Personal Project Share] Terran Defense v0.60 BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ StarCraft 64 is coming to Philly at SC4ALL II
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3 2v2v2v2 Tournament Escore Tournament - Season 3
Strategy
Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Fighting Spirit mining rates Any training maps people recommend? Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
General RTS Discussion Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread EVE Corporation Nintendo Switch Thread Diablo 2 thread
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread US Politics Mega-thread The Letting Off Steam Thread Iain M Banks Says He Has Cancer And Months To Live Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread Series you have seen recently... [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Simple Questions Simple Answers FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
Are High-Level Gamers more A…
TrAiDoS
Cathedral Of CS And NY pizza a…
FuDDx
Please support my new stand…
Peanutsc
Hello guys!
LIN1s
ASL S22 English Commentary…
namkraft
Poker (part 2)
Nebuchad
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 10902 users

How to beat Flash: Commentator Edition.

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 Next All
Milkis
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-14 18:46:39
May 14 2010 18:04 GMT
#1
The latest episode of OGN's 돌아온 뒷담화 talked about Protoss vs Terran (specifically, they talked about "how to beat Flash" for a bit) strategies. A summary of the strategies mentioned (assuming I translated it correctly)

I don't actually know the names of the commentators with the exception of Kangmin, so I won't label who said what, but a brief summary of strategies mentioned. I'm going to concentrate more on PvT since it was much more indepth.

- Flash is the favorite to beat the OSL. Kal has the best chance against Flash, and the commentators believe that Flash vs Kal will be very entertaining.

- Players need some sort of hidden card in order to make Flash attack, whether it be just going Carriers or taking massive amounts of Expos. Essentially, use Flash's timing sense against him -- make Flash believe that there is a timing window and draw him out, and use that "advantage" (i guess this refers to knowing that flash is attacking) + micro to deal with the army (Psi Storm, Stasis), and then go carriers in that transition. This is because if you go carriers before hand, it takes up too much supply and your ground army will be too weak.

- Specifically, Terran look at the Stargates or Expos to determine whether or not they should push. In order to draw the terran army out, just build stargates and beacon, but do not build Carriers just yet. Essentially, they believe mind games are key (Kangmin was then singled out for using this strategy). It was also mentioned that building one or two carriers to increase the number of Goliaths in the terran army was also a successful strategy in the past.

- The general flow of TvP seems to be about Protoss taking a lot of expansions, and Terran thinking how they should take down the Toss expos and have a center fight. The commentators mention that this is what the current protoss players do, and they lose because of it. Kangmin then mentioned that this strategy needs to be researched. He specifically mentions building cannons in odd places near the expo(not just around the nexus), to slow down the terran push, and use that opportunity to storm the terran army. He mentions that it's too easy for Terran to just push into the nexus because cannons are only around the nexus. Kangmin mentions that Protoss players should be concentrating on building the army WHILE accomplishing this cannon layout. The cannon is meant to simply slow down the terran push until you can storm them.

- They mention that it is currently an "Era of Multitasking", and there's a lot of multitasking play in TvZ or PvZ, but there isn't many plays like that in PvT. They mention there are currently no protoss players who can really do that.

- There has been no evolution in PvT matchup in the 10 years of Starcraft, although the other matchups had changed constantly.

- This is because Terran's optimum strategy is to turtle against Protoss until Terran gets their upgrades and push out at full army (since Mech > Protoss Army). This is why Protoss needs Arbiter recall to create small fights, but Terran has adapted to this, making fields of turrets and Science Vessels and EMPing every dot that appears on the minimap.

- Protoss Players need to think about more strategies -- even though Protoss has rediscovered the Arbiter and learned how to reuse it , their strategies have either been Arbiter -> Carrier or Reaver -> Carrier, aka, trying to oppose the Terran army through force.

- They talk about how Zerg (nearly) reached perfection through Jaedong, there are no players for Protoss that reaches this peak -- they're missing the "2%".

- To summarize Kangmin's point about PvT, the flow of the game goes like this. Protoss starts out by expanding, and then Terran comes with the "one shot" timing, and Protoss cannot stop this timing and lose. A system is needed for the Protoss to stop/stall the one shot timing in order to buy time.

- Kangmin: Even if Terran loses a bulk of their army, they can easily hit 200/200 in about 10 seconds. However, Protoss normally loses more than 100 supply in one go, so Protoss needs a lot of time to rebuild that supply. In this time, Terran normally expands during this time, and attacks at the same time, and that's why Protoss has been being pushed over. Protoss needs to research a "system" to protect their expansions using a small army. Kangmin's suggestion, again, is the system of cannons spread out along with high templar storms.

The discussion then shifted to "How can Effort beat Flash"

- If you're on autopilot mode in the beginning, you already lost. Speed up Zerglings or Mutas, etc, if you go a standard order, you cannot beat Flash. You need a "Fake".

- You need a build order advantage against Flash. There is no real way of beating Flash without it. Jaedong has shown this recently, keeping up with Terran's transitions and transitioning himself and overwhelming the Terran with Army.

- "Use more mind games". (as you can see I'm sort of tired of translating at this point)

- You must beat Flash in a macro game. You cannot beat Flash by going all in. Lay out the game for a Macro oriented game and "beat him"

- Why isn't anyone using Queens recently? Effort may need to use Queens to beat Flash -- Ensnaring M&M balls and broodling the Mech army, and Parasite for scouting.

- "Can Effort show signs of "Old Savior""?

- Commentators seem to be split -- one says Queen, one says Muta, Kangmin says Defiler (lol). "Use Larvae well" (lololol nice joke)
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
May 14 2010 18:11 GMT
#2
d web imo
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
guii
Profile Joined December 2009
Brazil31 Posts
May 14 2010 18:12 GMT
#3
Nice job! Thanks for the readin'!

I wish Kangmin could play exactly like he says in this episode!
KristianJS
Profile Joined October 2009
2107 Posts
May 14 2010 18:22 GMT
#4
Awesome, thanks for the translation!

This is so true: "If you're on autopilot mode in the beginning, you already lost."

You need to be 100% behind someone before you can stab them in the back
TheMunkey
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada470 Posts
May 14 2010 18:29 GMT
#5
awesome translations.

haha the joke in the end is pure gold.
Never give up
hyst.eric.al
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States2332 Posts
May 14 2010 18:36 GMT
#6
cheat codes, imo

good luck to effort though, i hope he has some devious things up his sleeve
Leta , BeSt, Calm fan forever! 김정우, I am sorry I ever lost faith in you.
J1.au
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Australia3596 Posts
May 14 2010 18:38 GMT
#7
Ty for the translation!
Nal_rAwr
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2611 Posts
May 14 2010 19:02 GMT
#8
ask kangmin you have the man right next to you

he reaver bulldogged flash won ezpz
Nony is Bonjwa
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
May 14 2010 19:09 GMT
#9
reaver bulldog isn't going to work in a best of series though
if you need one game, possibly, but that's pretty all-in
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
May 14 2010 19:15 GMT
#10
On May 15 2010 03:11 Bill Murray wrote:
d web imo



With better execution, and Flash scanning the beacon and thinking carriers, it MIGHT just work
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
thopol
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
Japan4560 Posts
May 14 2010 19:23 GMT
#11
On May 15 2010 04:15 Plexa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2010 03:11 Bill Murray wrote:
d web imo

*VOD*

With better execution, and Flash scanning the beacon and thinking carriers, it MIGHT just work

That was a great game. It would require impeccable micro to stop a second push but Kal's certainly capable of divine corsair micro.
wswordsmen
Profile Joined October 2007
United States987 Posts
May 14 2010 19:26 GMT
#12
Thanks for the translation.
amazingoopah
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1925 Posts
May 14 2010 19:33 GMT
#13
I think (Z)EffOrt should cede his finals slot and give it to (P)Nal_rA.... he's the only one who has beaten him in a while anyways, it seems!
eshlow
Profile Joined June 2008
United States5210 Posts
May 14 2010 19:33 GMT
#14
On May 15 2010 04:23 thopol wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2010 04:15 Plexa wrote:
On May 15 2010 03:11 Bill Murray wrote:
d web imo

*VOD*

With better execution, and Flash scanning the beacon and thinking carriers, it MIGHT just work

That was a great game. It would require impeccable micro to stop a second push but Kal's certainly capable of divine corsair micro.


+ Show Spoiler +
Except Effort beat Kal 3-0

-_-
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
L0thar
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
987 Posts
May 14 2010 19:59 GMT
#15
On May 15 2010 04:33 amazingoopah wrote:
I think (Z)EffOrt should cede his finals slot and give it to (P)Nal_rA.... he's the only one who has beaten him in a while anyways, it seems!


Didn't Flash win next 2 games anyway? Or did they just play that one game?
SubtleArt
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
2710 Posts
May 14 2010 20:04 GMT
#16
nice, although I do find it odd that they say "even if terran loses bulk of his army, he can go back to 200/200 quickly while protoss takes longer to rebuild". In every single TvP ive ever played or watched its been the exact opposite.
Morrow on ZvP: "I'm not very confident in general vs Protoss because of the imbalance (Yes its imbalanced, get over it)."
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
May 14 2010 20:09 GMT
#17
On May 15 2010 05:04 SubtleArt wrote:
nice, although I do find it odd that they say "even if terran loses bulk of his army, he can go back to 200/200 quickly while protoss takes longer to rebuild". In every single TvP ive ever played or watched its been the exact opposite.

TvP =/= FvP
Moderator
Vasoline73
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States8079 Posts
May 14 2010 20:10 GMT
#18
- There has been no evolution in PvT matchup in the 10 years of Starcraft, although the other matchups had changed constantly.

I don't get how they can say this...
disciple
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
9071 Posts
May 14 2010 20:17 GMT
#19
PvT is alright, protoss are doing bad because a certain protoss is doing terrible. He needs to check some of these replays
[image loading]
Administrator"I'm a big deal." - ixmike88
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
May 14 2010 20:34 GMT
#20
On May 15 2010 05:17 disciple wrote:
PvT is alright, protoss are doing bad because a certain protoss is doing terrible. He needs to check some of these replays
[image loading]
Destination was a 66% P>T map though...
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
1 2 3 4 5 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 49m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 545
ZombieGrub63
ProTech48
NeuroSwarm 32
SpeCial 2
StarCraft: Brood War
Artosis 109
Dota 2
XBOCT1179
LuMiX1
League of Legends
Doublelift4955
Counter-Strike
Fnx 1108
Other Games
summit1g5081
Grubby1939
shahzam577
ToD303
C9.Mang0247
hungrybox195
Mew2King130
UpATreeSC71
ViBE51
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• RyuSc2 25
• musti20045 17
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21137
League of Legends
• imaqtpie1966
Other Games
• Scarra647
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
1h 49m
The PondCast
11h 49m
PiG Sty Festival
13h 49m
Serral vs Lambo
SHIN vs Rogue
OSC
14h 49m
Replay Cast
1d 1h
Escore
1d 11h
PiG Sty Festival
1d 13h
ByuN vs HeRoMaRinE
ShoWTimE vs Zoun
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
PiG Sty Festival
2 days
herO vs Krystianer
Solar vs Cure
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
[ Show More ]
PiG Sty Festival
3 days
Maru vs Shameless
Reynor vs TriGGeR
OSC
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
Rush vs Hm
Bisu vs Shuttle
WardiTV Weekly
4 days
The Patches Monday
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
5 days
Sharp vs Shinee
Action vs Shine
PiGosaur Cup
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Afreeca Starleague
6 days
BeSt vs Paralyze
Jaedong vs Speed
Kung Fu Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-08-11
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
Acropolis #5
RSL Revival: Season 6
Esports World Cup 2026
Esports World Cup 2026: LCQ
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S3: W7
CSLAN 4
ASL Season 22
Escore Tournament S3: W8
Acropolis #5 - TRS
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Acropolis #5 - GSA
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1
META DYMY #4
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Thunderpick World Champ.
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
Logitech G Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.