EPTHe specifically mentions building cannons in odd places near the expo(not just around the nexus), to slow down the terran push
Haha, I called it in the other thread!
How to beat Flash: Commentator Edition. - Page 2
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okum
France5778 Posts
He specifically mentions building cannons in odd places near the expo(not just around the nexus), to slow down the terran push Haha, I called it in the other thread! | ||
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SuperArc
Austria7781 Posts
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Wings
United States999 Posts
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PoP
France15446 Posts
Same here. That's definitely wrong. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Perhaps they mean it hasn't gone through the same degree of evolution like the other matchups have. I mean, they admitted that Arbiters were rediscovered which is clearly an evolution of the PvT matchup. | ||
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PoP
France15446 Posts
On May 15 2010 06:46 Plexa wrote: Perhaps they mean it hasn't gone through the same degree of evolution like the other matchups have. I mean, they admitted that Arbiters were rediscovered which is clearly an evolution of the PvT matchup. Yeah probably less so than other matchups but still. Arbiters were a HUGE evolution (made popular by Pusan btw  ), but there's also been a shitload of (mostly aggressive) new Terran BOs, 12+ nexus, observer-less PvT (thanks to goons vs mines micro), etc etc.The way progamers used to play TvP back in the Boxer/Garimto era days has absolutely nothing in common with how it's played right now. | ||
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thunk
United States6233 Posts
On May 15 2010 06:53 PoP wrote: Yeah probably less so than other matchups but still. Arbiters were a HUGE evolution (made popular by Pusan btw ), but there's also been a shitload of (mostly aggressive) new Terran BOs, 12+ nexus, observer-less PvT (thanks to goons vs mines micro), etc etc.The way progamers used to play TvP back in the Boxer/Garimto era days has absolutely nothing in common with how it's played right now. Compare it to the evolution of TvZ and ZvP. You have basically tweaks in build order (rearrangement of buildings) compared to the mind-set changes that Savior and Bisu brought along in ZvT and PvZ respectively. I think it'd be interesting to see how one would want to beat Flash in a TvT, the match-up that really hasn't changed much. | ||
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lone_hydra
Canada1460 Posts
Also build cannons not only near nexus. Good terrans like to put down a shit ton of mines all over the map for free scouting and map control. Cannons in good places around the map will really damage the terran's ability to use mines to gain control and scout. It will also force the terran to use more attention on vultures when they move out to harass. It's too bad I never will be able to use this advice, the backstab technique works much better in D+ levels. Zergs have an excellent shot of destroying Flash with 2 hatch mutas+good micro. Almost every time Flash got 2 hatched, it did terrible damage relative to how good Flash is supposed to play. | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On May 15 2010 06:53 PoP wrote: Yeah probably less so than other matchups but still. Arbiters were a HUGE evolution (made popular by Pusan btw ), but there's also been a shitload of (mostly aggressive) new Terran BOs, 12+ nexus, observer-less PvT (thanks to goons vs mines micro), etc etc.The way progamers used to play TvP back in the Boxer/Garimto era days has absolutely nothing in common with how it's played right now. It was Stork, actually  but thats one popular misconception I'm not to worried about correcting lol. Pusan built upon what Stork brought to the table in the SLs. | ||
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thunk
United States6233 Posts
On May 15 2010 07:40 lone_hydra wrote: There is actually 2 points that really stuck out to me. Carrier fakes. Pump 1 carrier and use observers to see how much goliaths Flash pumps in response, then go more carriers or ground army depending on terran, which will probably horribly screw up Flash's sense of carrier tech switch push timing. Also build cannons not only near nexus. Good terrans like to put down a shit ton of mines all over the map for free scouting and map control. Cannons in good places around the map will really damage the terran's ability to use mines to gain control and scout. It will also force the terran to use more attention on vultures when they move out to harass. It's too bad I never will be able to use this advice, the backstab technique works much better in D+ levels. Yea seriously whatever Kang Min is talking about is almost certainly way too high level for 99.9% of Teamliquid users. | ||
Harem
United States11393 Posts
On May 15 2010 03:04 Milkis wrote: - Players need some sort of hidden card in order to make Flash attack, whether it be just going Carriers or taking massive amounts of Expos. Essentially, use Flash's timing sense against him -- make Flash believe that there is a timing window and draw him out, and use that "advantage" (i guess this refers to knowing that flash is attacking) + micro to deal with the army (Psi Storm, Stasis), and then go carriers in that transition. This is because if you go carriers before hand, it takes up too much supply and your ground army will be too weak. - Specifically, Terran look at the Stargates or Expos to determine whether or not they should push. In order to draw the terran army out, just build stargates and beacon, but do not build Carriers just yet. Essentially, they believe mind games are key (Kangmin was then singled out for using this strategy). It was also mentioned that building one or two carriers to increase the number of Goliaths in the terran army was also a successful strategy in the past. Best example of this recently is probably Pure vs Flash on MP. Pure could have done so much more if he just would have faked carriers instead. :| | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
Regarding evolution of PvT/TvP, what they are saying is entirely correct. Fundamentally speaking, all of the strategies today are just "improvements" on strategies that have been around since 2004ish, and most or all of these strategies have their roots in the time of Garimto or even earlier. Since the time of Ra/Reach/Kingdom, the evolution in this match-up has been nothing more than a "streamlining" and re-tailoring of old ideas. The last real evolution in the fundamental nature of the match-up would probably be due to NaDa circa early/mid 2001, who played a huge role in shifting the mentality from an early game plan to a midgame plan, but even then, the notion of late game PvT being based on macro heavy center battles comes way before then. If you compare to TvZ/ZvT or ZvP/PvZ, the difference is unimaginable. Defilers especially have changed the nature of the game tremendously. | ||
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
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moopie
12605 Posts
On May 15 2010 08:21 cursor wrote: I would give him a sweet Heater. And plug it into the same breaker that works for his computer. Chances are, when he turns it on, its going to crash his computer. I would give him a UPS and counter your strategy. | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
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KiLL_ORdeR
United States1518 Posts
On May 15 2010 08:11 Mortality wrote: The problem is that, as I see it, there are exactly three Protoss players who have a "good" chance at winning over Flash if they are in peak form. But none of them (Bisu, Stork, Jangbi) are in peak form. On the whole, the three of them are taking losses left and right at the moment and don't look anything close to ready to take on Sea or Baby, let alone Flash who is right now in a class entirely of his own, just like the four bonjwas before him. A crown is just about ready to be dropped on Flash's head and a golden mouse will accompany the coronation ceremony. At this point, only Jaedong looks ready to step up to the plate and deny Flash that claim. (Because, when it comes to the word "bonjwa," there can be only one.) Well I think Movie has a better chance than either Jangbi and Bisu+ Show Spoiler + And, until seeing the series, I though that free had as good a chance as anyone as well I think the point is, regardless of how good anyone is right now, the only way to beat FlaSh is play the matchup in a way that he's never seen before, whether it's TvT, PvT, or ZvT. | ||
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moopie
12605 Posts
On May 15 2010 09:26 KiLL_ORdeR wrote: Well I think Movie has a better chance than either Jangbi and Bisu+ Show Spoiler + And, until seeing the series, I though that free had as good a chance as anyone as well I think the point is, regardless of how good anyone is right now, the only way to beat FlaSh is play the matchup in a way that he's never seen before, whether it's TvT, PvT, or ZvT. I think with the players in their current condition (and the current maps), Kal has the best chance, with Stork coming in second. Kal vs Flash games are usually very engaging. Jangbi and Bisu don't really have what it takes atm (and imo neither does Movie). But I agree that regardless of the player, traiditional PvT won't do much good. | ||
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SturmAddict
Malaysia176 Posts
1) proxy 2 gate 2) 2 gate goons into reaver drop That will probably kill all the wall less macro builds. Probably | ||
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Wings
United States999 Posts
On May 15 2010 09:39 SturmAddict wrote: the only thing toss needs to do is 1) proxy 2 gate 2) 2 gate goons into reaver drop That will probably kill all the wall less macro builds. Probably not | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On May 15 2010 09:37 moopie wrote: I think with the players in their current condition (and the current maps), Kal has the best chance, with Stork coming in second. Kal vs Flash games are usually very engaging. Jangbi and Bisu don't really have what it takes atm (and imo neither does Movie). But I agree that regardless of the player, traiditional PvT won't do much good. Movie? Are you kidding? Movie's PvT has always been a bit flaky and has only rarely shown us moments that hinted at something spectacular. What makes Movie such a solid player is his strong PvZ and his still not entirely tapped potential. Honestly, in my opinion he made the OSL finals too early. He hasn't yet fully bloomed out into what he could be. Bisu and Jangbi are among the all time best PvTers and it was not that long ago when they were dropping jaws left and right. Moreover, in a recent interview, Really said that he still thinks Jangbi is the #1 PvTer despite Jangbi's lackluster performances in televised games. Kal is the player who is most consistently showing us strong performances in PvT right now. It's hard to say if Stork or Free is second. Free maintains #1 PvT ELO, but he can be a bit sloppy at times. Stork isn't exactly at his best ever right now, but makes a strong argument for #1 all time PvT player (he's been among the top, if not the top, for the entire time period of 2005 until now). But really, Kal doesn't have that "extra 2%" that Bisu/Stork/Jangbi at their best have presented us with in the past. If you look at Kal vs Flash from the past, the record is lopsided and while fans will say "but those were some close matches," at the end of the day, close is no cigar. And Kal has only ever "come close." I actually don't think that the only way to beat Flash is to hit him with something brand new. He's on the verge of "bonjwa" and is pretty much guaranteed to earn that title unless there is some divine intervention at work (pray to god, Jaedong, pray to god...). But Flash can lose, even without a revolution. You just have to step up to his level. The issue is that there's no one who looks like he can do it with any semblance of regularity. And that's why Flash will be crowned king. That's why Jaedong never was crowned king. That's what the "b-word" is all about. ...Ridiculously long post... | ||
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