EPTAs it is, no pro players have done so in almost years. And if they have, it was to "surprise" the opponent. Maybe Gumiho at best, but as it is, it's bio, heavily. Why does mech get nerfed into the ground? So much so that almost no one goes mech?
Serious Question: Mech
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Phattyasmo
United States68 Posts
As it is, no pro players have done so in almost years. And if they have, it was to "surprise" the opponent. Maybe Gumiho at best, but as it is, it's bio, heavily. Why does mech get nerfed into the ground? So much so that almost no one goes mech? | ||
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Phattyasmo
United States68 Posts
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dedede
United States36 Posts
I think battlemech (w/ cyclones, hellions, and banshees) might be the best mech composition, and use their mobility to pressure and contain your opponent before they can tech up to T3 units. But I'm not a pro, I'm just sharing my two cents. | ||
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MrIronGolem27
United States208 Posts
On June 04 2025 10:10 Phattyasmo wrote: Naturally, no one has given any input. Maybe this proves the point as well. Lol you waited less than an hour after your original post to say this | ||
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Jealous
10111 Posts
https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/519764-what-happened-to-blizzards-effort-to-buff-mech On March 05 2017 03:19 Jealous wrote: In this episode of Monthly Mech Viability Whine Thread, we have the same posters making the same complaints they've made for months, all with little to no statistical or empirical evidence! Players who reach M and GM with Mech who still think that their homogenous, uninspired, turtle-oriented style of play is getting the shaft are here to answer any logical counter-arguments you have with the same shriveled up explanations and whinefests that you've grown to expect and detest! Tune in again next month, when you will hear the same issues brought up again and again from people who lack a sense of realism when it comes to Blizzard's approach to the game, how others play and want to play, and lack the basic objectivity necessary to talk about balance! | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1508 Posts
On June 04 2025 09:33 Phattyasmo wrote: mech builds and play? I'm not talking about bio into mech either, but being able to actually go mech in TvZ and TvP. As it is, no pro players have done so in almost years. And if they have, it was to "surprise" the opponent. Maybe Gumiho at best, but as it is, it's bio, heavily. Why does mech get nerfed into the ground? So much so that almost no one goes mech? even byun is going mech now WHAT are you talking about? cyclones are kind of meta right now.... and not just 1 or two im talking cyclone mech. and i mean old turtle mech just got expired because of swarmhost viper plays. mech relies on cost efficiency while having less bases but those units flip the switch and why its not seen often at top level play. I think if you go cyclone mech i have seen bunny pull this off to some success vs reynor for example with just like a 3 base siege tank timing while vipers are coming out you can sorta hit a window before zerg gets out of control. but yeah, multiple patches have tried to stop terran from being able to sit back and turtle and do nothing and win so its not really the direction the game is supposed to be taken. the balance council wants more fights/action. | ||
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tigera6
3290 Posts
What I would like to see is the return of BC-Mech, seems like even Gumiho hasnt tried it, I saw Clem tried it once against Serral and got flipped badly. | ||
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MJG
United Kingdom889 Posts
Most people don't want to watch turtle mech. That's it. That's the whole thing. | ||
Waxangel
United States33293 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24754 Posts
For reasons I’ll touch on, I think mech is doomed to either be overpowered or underpowered in this game, and Blizz have, despite claiming to, and perhaps actually trying, have also found this and decided the latter is preferable for the wider player base. UI Differences BW mech has things that naturally keep it in check. Limited unit selection makes it harder to move around in general, but hits mech especially hard. You gotta screen with vultures, you gotta lay mines effectively, you’ve gotta siege, you’ve gotta unsiege, youve gotta move. All while trying to macro, without multiple building selection, without worker rallies, and limited to a 12 unit selection. This slows potential death pushes down a hell of a lot. Speeding them up and not having the various components in sync is an option, but it’s risky and if your opponent gets wind of it your mech ball WILL get busted. BW/SC2 Eco Second to this is BW’s general eco pacing. It takes a lot longer to max. In SC2 it’s way faster, and you only need a couple of bases. With really only PvZ as the consistent exception, SC2’s maxout times are quite similar. BW’s aren’t and pretty big supply deficits are common in TvP and TvZ, behind and ahead respectively. In BW, Terran’s danger zone is more often than not trying to establish a third base, while not exposing themselves to a bust attempt, while Toss may be 40 or more supply, and one or even two bases up. This is a window where you can do multiple things as Toss. Go for a kill, go for some trades while expanding as the Terran is semi-pinned. Go for some backstabs and harassment moves. Maybe a sneaky carrier transition. Terran may try some counter-harassment to take some pressure off while weathering the storm. Maybe Toss over-commits into the defences really inefficiently and it’s ’go time’ for a counter. Maybe T would rather lock that third down instead. Anyway all of this dynamic really only works as well as it does because Toss can both max out way quicker as well as expand more. With SC2 eco, and mech, Toss can do the out-expand part, but they’re not maxing all that much faster. A Terran can mech hard on max 3 bases that are quite close together and easy to defend and it’ll be reasonably comparable. The only reason this isn’t remotely a problem for good Toss players is mech sucks in small/medium supply engagements before it really gets going. If we’re talking tank mech. And Protoss have some expert tank killers in Chargelots and Archons, as well as the Immortal, who is less of an expert and more of a ‘I have spent my entire existence perfecting the art of killing tanks’. A good Toss will just kill you. Which does kinda blow sometimes, however I think if you changed (buffed) mech so that it could reliably weather that phase out, you create a bigger problem, which I’m coming to. Actually Killing a Maxed, 3/3 Mech Army in SC2, if mech was actually good You don’t. There’s no amount of funky micro any other ground comp in the game can pull off to bust that at max. Partly because it’s way easier to move that death ball around than in BW (and it is a deathball, it just sieges and unsieges occasionally), partly because unit clumping concentrates both damage output, but also squashes the targets into smaller areas. Which makes the AoE that much stronger. We see similar moves to BW like dropping units on tanks, triggering friendly fire etc, those still work but not to the same degree. For one we’re not always talking a maxed ball. Engagements tend to be spread out a bit more. Plus mine drags aren’t quite the same with widow mines (if they’re even there) than with those of the spider variety. There is the ‘can you get there?’ component of course. I recognise that, but if you do, even with current balance numbers I don’t think there are many ground comps that you could realistically build that even trade that well, never mind beat it if you buffed it. To accomplish the aforementioned that you’d need some kind of anti-mech spellcaster for Zerg, or maybe an air unit that outranged tanks for Protoss. Which is probably why they exist IMO. I think people miss a step here. Vipers and Tempests may absolutely shit on mech, and their existence is correctly pointed out to be part of why mech sucks. But a big part of why they exist is that neither Zerg nor Toss can particularly reliably engage a properly established mech ball on the ground. SC2 LoTV Eco Changes Probably plays a big part too, shifted certain timings around. What is Mech? I’ve never played another RTS where there exists a fixation of this kind. I wanna play a specific style from the previous title, and it has to be this one faction, and it’s only units from a particular building. Is it a positional style with map control and battles for territory? Is it a defensively-minded slow push style? Is it units coming from a factory or some combination? I’m unsure what people actually mean when they talk about ‘mech’ being viable. Of those 3. The first is just marine/tank mirror, which has almost always kicked arse since WoL released. Bio versus mech when it happens too, and IMO is probably the only matchup where mech can really work and is all 3 of fun to play, fun to play against and fun to watch. The second I think attritional Zerg swarmhost styles, or some Skytoss styles somewhat fit the bill. And are generally hated. IMO rightfully so, don’t get me wrong, and the ‘air’ part of Skytoss is a big difference, but they’re not that stylistically different from slow pushing tank mech. If it’s just factory units and not a ‘style’ as it were, then what difference does it make where they come from? If you want a less attention-intensive, more positional style than bio-centric ones, that really ain’t Battlemech. And not in terms of OP/UP, but heavy cyclones are amongst the most annoying things in the game to play against. Hell, stylistically I’d say bio/tank plays more like BW mech (not very) than Battlemech (not at all) Battlemech into tank mech, bit different but tbh not something I see too often at high levels. Either the Terran finds a hole and does appreciable damage, and just keeps rallying cyclone/hellion for the kill move, or the Zerg doesn’t take much damage/resets the Battlemech and kills a Terran trying to transition laters. TLDR Different games, different engines, different pacing. I love the idea of a very different style from bio-centric ones being equally viable, or at least in one matchup. I think Blizz do (did) too. I just don’t think that sweet spot exists. It’ll have to either suck at the pro level, and be harder to play at lower levels, but still possible to get to GM with, or too strong at pro levels and incredibly annoying to play against at lower levels. I don’t really like either option really, but I think the latter is better on balance. Bit longer than I’d initially intended but hey! If I came across as hostile at any point, not my intention at all | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10320 Posts
Why mech is seeing less use overall from HotS to LotV? -Economy change to 12 workers favors economy-favored builds and getting huge low-tech armies fast, while teching to mech/factories is more linear and benefits less. You can't really get gas "early" since you start with 12 workers already. -Maps got bigger (good, for macro games), obviously doesn't favor mech especially tank-based mech. Slightly alleviated because Liberators are like T3 mobile tanks in a way. -Many small changes that are targetted at bio play, but doesn't consider the small side effects to mech unfortunately. Why is mech less viable in TvP than in HotS? -Economy change, fast blink stalkers gives map control unlike in HotS where you could get map control with reactor or double reactor factory and Protoss was the one who had to tech up a bit on 2 bases and slowly take 3rd, it's reversed now -Small changes like EMP nerf (targetted at bio but affects mech unfortunately), Tempest buff to 4 supply so Mech lost its endgoal (mass BC or heavy BC army, thus putting some pressure on Protoss to be the one to attack into Mech and slow it down), you can't just Warp onto Tempests and roll it (understandably nerfed, but Mech didn't get something in return), Tempest having an upgrade that helps kill buildings faster / no more PDD, PF lost 1 armor, etc. -Disruptors were good vs Mech too unfortunately (but less so now with needing 2 novas to kill 1 tank) Why is mech less common in TvZ than in HotS? -This one depends on which period/patch we're talking about. Currently TvZ mech is actually pretty fine, Thors are stronger vs BLs than ever and you don't need an airfleet vs BLs anymore, thus allowing you to also have a bigger ground force vs ground. Mech niche but you can definitely pull it out and it's well rounded enough unlike TvP where you have to disguise it as something else and use it only very occasionally. TvZ in LotV hasn't changed much, unless you're comparing it to the Raven PDD era of HotS where people finally realized that mass PDD was broken as hell Why is mech less common in TvT than in HotS? -Raven became more of a bio spellcaster than mech spellcaster. PDD benefited mech more, but now disable favors bio more. Disable is badly designed unfortunately. It is good at disabling small numbers of units. This means it's very dangerous and flimsy to try to make small fortifications (few tanks + turrets, etc.) to secure forward positions on the map or defend a far off base. You want to ball up your stuff which makes mech more immobile than before Ravens got disable. Without PDD, bio armies are stronger cus you can't make them vs marauders & get an early advantage in winning air control which is hugely important for forcing their tanks to back off or else be shot by your tanks (or burn their scans). Also, without PDD you are less mobile now, before if caught a bit off guard you can PDD and only take a tiny bit of damage from marines, now you have to be careful vs marauders as well. -Without that lategame mech spellcaster tech, there is just very little reason to go mech. Bio has access to the same tanks, air units, BCs, etc. And their ravens/disables are more effective on your tanks than yours are on theirs because your army is relying on its exponentially high strength from a huger tank count. You do very occasionally see mech in TvT though, Cyclones in pro's hands can provide useful utility and control and is the only unit you can use to strengthen your composition that doesn't synergize well with bio (marine tank in TvT). | ||
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