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How to beat Flash: Commentator Edition. - Page 3

Forum Index > BW General
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infinity2k9
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
United Kingdom2397 Posts
May 15 2010 01:35 GMT
#41
Jaedong can do it tbh... his preparation for bo5 is immense. The power outrage joke is worn out, Jaedong could have done it himself then and he could do it now. Flash looks amazing of course, but i believe its easier to be consistent in terran matchups than zerg.
lone_hydra
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada1460 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-15 01:40:17
May 15 2010 01:38 GMT
#42
On May 15 2010 10:28 Mortality wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2010 09:37 moopie wrote:
On May 15 2010 09:26 KiLL_ORdeR wrote:
On May 15 2010 08:11 Mortality wrote:
The problem is that, as I see it, there are exactly three Protoss players who have a "good" chance at winning over Flash if they are in peak form. But none of them (Bisu, Stork, Jangbi) are in peak form. On the whole, the three of them are taking losses left and right at the moment and don't look anything close to ready to take on Sea or Baby, let alone Flash who is right now in a class entirely of his own, just like the four bonjwas before him. A crown is just about ready to be dropped on Flash's head and a golden mouse will accompany the coronation ceremony. At this point, only Jaedong looks ready to step up to the plate and deny Flash that claim. (Because, when it comes to the word "bonjwa," there can be only one.)


Well I think Movie has a better chance than either Jangbi and Bisu+ Show Spoiler +
And, until seeing the series, I though that free had as good a chance as anyone as well


I think the point is, regardless of how good anyone is right now, the only way to beat FlaSh is play the matchup in a way that he's never seen before, whether it's TvT, PvT, or ZvT.


I think with the players in their current condition (and the current maps), Kal has the best chance, with Stork coming in second. Kal vs Flash games are usually very engaging. Jangbi and Bisu don't really have what it takes atm (and imo neither does Movie). But I agree that regardless of the player, traiditional PvT won't do much good.


I actually don't think that the only way to beat Flash is to hit him with something brand new. He's on the verge of "bonjwa" and is pretty much guaranteed to earn that title unless there is some divine intervention at work (pray to god, Jaedong, pray to god...). But Flash can lose, even without a revolution. You just have to step up to his level. The issue is that there's no one who looks like he can do it with any semblance of regularity. And that's why Flash will be crowned king. That's why Jaedong never was crowned king. That's what the "b-word" is all about.


...Ridiculously long post...


And thats why, because its so hard to step up to his level right now, its better to try something new to beat Flash. But yes, he easily looks like he can be beaten in TvT and TvZ if you watch the games, but his TvP is just deadly.

Zerg and terran players have to try to break a a thick wood plank with a karate chop, hard to do but everyone knows its possible. Besides Kal on a very good day, Flash just runs over Toss, I watch FvP, and its like the toss player is trying to break a steal wall with their fists.
Fav Gamers: 2)Stork 5)Bisu
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
May 15 2010 03:56 GMT
#43
On May 15 2010 10:38 lone_hydra wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2010 10:28 Mortality wrote:
On May 15 2010 09:37 moopie wrote:
On May 15 2010 09:26 KiLL_ORdeR wrote:
On May 15 2010 08:11 Mortality wrote:
The problem is that, as I see it, there are exactly three Protoss players who have a "good" chance at winning over Flash if they are in peak form. But none of them (Bisu, Stork, Jangbi) are in peak form. On the whole, the three of them are taking losses left and right at the moment and don't look anything close to ready to take on Sea or Baby, let alone Flash who is right now in a class entirely of his own, just like the four bonjwas before him. A crown is just about ready to be dropped on Flash's head and a golden mouse will accompany the coronation ceremony. At this point, only Jaedong looks ready to step up to the plate and deny Flash that claim. (Because, when it comes to the word "bonjwa," there can be only one.)


Well I think Movie has a better chance than either Jangbi and Bisu+ Show Spoiler +
And, until seeing the series, I though that free had as good a chance as anyone as well


I think the point is, regardless of how good anyone is right now, the only way to beat FlaSh is play the matchup in a way that he's never seen before, whether it's TvT, PvT, or ZvT.


I think with the players in their current condition (and the current maps), Kal has the best chance, with Stork coming in second. Kal vs Flash games are usually very engaging. Jangbi and Bisu don't really have what it takes atm (and imo neither does Movie). But I agree that regardless of the player, traiditional PvT won't do much good.


I actually don't think that the only way to beat Flash is to hit him with something brand new. He's on the verge of "bonjwa" and is pretty much guaranteed to earn that title unless there is some divine intervention at work (pray to god, Jaedong, pray to god...). But Flash can lose, even without a revolution. You just have to step up to his level. The issue is that there's no one who looks like he can do it with any semblance of regularity. And that's why Flash will be crowned king. That's why Jaedong never was crowned king. That's what the "b-word" is all about.


...Ridiculously long post...


And thats why, because its so hard to step up to his level right now, its better to try something new to beat Flash. But yes, he easily looks like he can be beaten in TvT and TvZ if you watch the games, but his TvP is just deadly.

Zerg and terran players have to try to break a a thick wood plank with a karate chop, hard to do but everyone knows its possible. Besides Kal on a very good day, Flash just runs over Toss, I watch FvP, and its like the toss player is trying to break a steal wall with their fists.


Ironically, Flash considers TvP his weakest match-up. And frankly? I agree with his assessment.

I wrote up a long and drawn out argument as to why I feel this way, but it sounded really weak when I read it so now it is deleted. Fundamentally speaking, I feel like Protoss players habitually let Flash get away calculated gambles. It's not really "luck" so much as metagame, which Flash seems to be on top of right now.

The statistics say TvP is Flash's best right now. It's the only match-up where he hasn't dropped a loss in his last 10 games. He now has the longest TvP win streak in history. I don't normally argue against the statistics but my gut is practically screaming at me that there's more to this picture than the statistics alone will tell you.
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
J1.au
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Australia3596 Posts
May 15 2010 06:42 GMT
#44
On May 15 2010 10:35 infinity2k9 wrote:
Jaedong can do it tbh... his preparation for bo5 is immense. The power outrage joke is worn out, Jaedong could have done it himself then and he could do it now. Flash looks amazing of course, but i believe its easier to be consistent in terran matchups than zerg.

The power outage wasn't a joke. It ruined what could've been the best series ever.

It's easier to be more consistent at Terran? REALLY? Going down the list of top Terrans is like reading a who's who of inconsistent players.
gamapg
Profile Joined January 2010
Philippines189 Posts
May 15 2010 06:48 GMT
#45
ultimate flash build order: 1 second in he builds an scv transition later on to his opponent into gg'ing
nitdkim
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
1264 Posts
May 15 2010 06:50 GMT
#46
recall with 10 shuttles fully filled plus ground army. lol
PM me if you want random korean images translated.
Durak
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada3684 Posts
May 15 2010 06:50 GMT
#47
On May 15 2010 15:42 J1.au wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2010 10:35 infinity2k9 wrote:
Jaedong can do it tbh... his preparation for bo5 is immense. The power outrage joke is worn out, Jaedong could have done it himself then and he could do it now. Flash looks amazing of course, but i believe its easier to be consistent in terran matchups than zerg.

The power outage wasn't a joke. It ruined what could've been the best series ever.

True. It was really too bad. However, it was still a pretty good series.
On May 15 2010 15:42 J1.au wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2010 10:35 infinity2k9 wrote:
Jaedong can do it tbh... his preparation for bo5 is immense. The power outrage joke is worn out, Jaedong could have done it himself then and he could do it now. Flash looks amazing of course, but i believe its easier to be consistent in terran matchups than zerg.

It's easier to be more consistent at Terran? REALLY? Going down the list of top Terrans is like reading a who's who of inconsistent players.

Nada's the man.
J1.au
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Australia3596 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-15 07:19:13
May 15 2010 07:16 GMT
#48
On May 15 2010 15:50 Durak wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2010 15:42 J1.au wrote:
On May 15 2010 10:35 infinity2k9 wrote:
Jaedong can do it tbh... his preparation for bo5 is immense. The power outrage joke is worn out, Jaedong could have done it himself then and he could do it now. Flash looks amazing of course, but i believe its easier to be consistent in terran matchups than zerg.

The power outage wasn't a joke. It ruined what could've been the best series ever.

True. It was really too bad. However, it was still a pretty good series.
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2010 15:42 J1.au wrote:
On May 15 2010 10:35 infinity2k9 wrote:
Jaedong can do it tbh... his preparation for bo5 is immense. The power outrage joke is worn out, Jaedong could have done it himself then and he could do it now. Flash looks amazing of course, but i believe its easier to be consistent in terran matchups than zerg.

It's easier to be more consistent at Terran? REALLY? Going down the list of top Terrans is like reading a who's who of inconsistent players.

Nada's the man.

Nada isn't a top Terran anymore. I was refering to current ones.

Here's the list.
imBLIND
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States2626 Posts
May 15 2010 07:36 GMT
#49
Protoss have killer spells vs terrans, but they often only use 1 or 2 of them at most.

Statis is strong, but if used improperly, it creates a funnel for protoss units, which is really bad.
Psi storm is even stronger, but templars are slow and easily sniped
D Web is stronger than both of the previous spells, but it's also more expensive
Feedback completely nullifies Vessels, but they're useless for anything else.

If a toss can handle casting 4 spells at once, terran armies will melt considerably easier compared to using pure zeal/goon.

But...this dream of mine is short-lived.
im deaf
PoP
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
France15446 Posts
May 15 2010 07:47 GMT
#50
On May 15 2010 07:42 Plexa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2010 06:53 PoP wrote:
Yeah probably less so than other matchups but still.

Arbiters were a HUGE evolution (made popular by Pusan btw ), but there's also been a shitload of (mostly aggressive) new Terran BOs, 12+ nexus, observer-less PvT (thanks to goons vs mines micro), etc etc.

The way progamers used to play TvP back in the Boxer/Garimto era days has absolutely nothing in common with how it's played right now.

It was Stork, actually but thats one popular misconception I'm not to worried about correcting lol. Pusan built upon what Stork brought to the table in the SLs.


Hm, always thought it was Pusan. I was following almost 100% of the progames back then, then in a PvT game on Rush Hour 2 Pusan started building many arbiters and using them to stasis and stuff, so I thought it was coming from him.

Must've missed a bunch of games then. Do you have a link to the first game Stork used them in?
Administrator
bubblegumbo
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Taiwan1296 Posts
May 15 2010 08:05 GMT
#51
Great translations, very insightful.
"I honestly think that whoever invented toilet paper is a genius. For man to survive, they need toilet paper!"- Nal_rA
dtnmang
Profile Joined April 2010
Vietnam752 Posts
May 15 2010 08:08 GMT
#52
How do you beat someone who learns new things about the game you are trying to beat them everyday?
KT Roflster - the lulziest team of Proleague.
NicksonReyes
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Philippines4431 Posts
May 15 2010 08:15 GMT
#53
On May 15 2010 16:36 imBLIND wrote:
Protoss have killer spells vs terrans, but they often only use 1 or 2 of them at most.

Statis is strong, but if used improperly, it creates a funnel for protoss units, which is really bad.
Psi storm is even stronger, but templars are slow and easily sniped
D Web is stronger than both of the previous spells, but it's also more expensive
Feedback completely nullifies Vessels, but they're useless for anything else.

If a toss can handle casting 4 spells at once, terran armies will melt considerably easier compared to using pure zeal/goon.

But...this dream of mine is short-lived.

1.D web,just like storms,can be easily dodged except it doesnt deal damage and 125energy=tech
2.on feedback's case, You would only worry about vessels when recalling. They often emp the army but sometime they can't because of multitasking(they are doing other things). DAs are expensive your opponent will have more vessels than your DAs.
3. Effort won 3-0

Short-lived indeed
"Start yo" -FlaSh
writer22816
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States5775 Posts
May 15 2010 10:26 GMT
#54
Just 12 nexus into dt drop.

Even Artosis and Idra know that there's nothing terran can do
8/4/12 never forget, never forgive.
dtnmang
Profile Joined April 2010
Vietnam752 Posts
May 15 2010 10:33 GMT
#55
On May 15 2010 19:26 writer22816 wrote:
Just 12 nexus into dt drop.

Even Artosis and Idra know that there's nothing terran can do
Forward rax into firebats.
KT Roflster - the lulziest team of Proleague.
vietboi
Profile Joined May 2010
Norway109 Posts
May 15 2010 10:33 GMT
#56
How to beat flash?

I play terran, i would go for:

14 CC --> Power Outage --> GG

I win because kespa ref is tired of flash is dominating so much.
saltywet
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Hong Kong1316 Posts
May 15 2010 11:03 GMT
#57
On May 15 2010 15:42 J1.au wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 15 2010 10:35 infinity2k9 wrote:
Jaedong can do it tbh... his preparation for bo5 is immense. The power outrage joke is worn out, Jaedong could have done it himself then and he could do it now. Flash looks amazing of course, but i believe its easier to be consistent in terran matchups than zerg.

The power outage wasn't a joke. It ruined what could've been the best series ever.

It's easier to be more consistent at Terran? REALLY? Going down the list of top Terrans is like reading a who's who of inconsistent players.


u look at the list of top zergs, list of top protosses, then yeah, terrans are looking pretty consistent.

i dont know if its me missing some fun games, but most of the games i watched nowadays are protosses trying to beat flash with gateway obs opening. kangmin beat flash with a reaver opening, m18m beat flash with DT opening, best beat flash last season when flash pushed out and got stopped by 4 storms that he didnt expect

its clear that its going to be impossible to stop flash in a macro game
J1.au
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Australia3596 Posts
May 15 2010 11:13 GMT
#58
+ Show Spoiler +
May
April
March
February
January
December

You guys are right. Terrans are consistent; consistently worse than Protoss and Zerg. With the exception of Flash of course.
SuperArc
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Austria7781 Posts
May 15 2010 11:24 GMT
#59
On May 15 2010 20:13 J1.au wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
May
April
March
February
January
December

You guys are right. Terrans are consistent; consistently worse than Protoss and Zerg. With the exception of Flash of course.


If you dont think terrans are the most consistent race in SC then you clearly know nothing.
Snow - future of protoss! :) Nada = baller
dybydx
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Canada1764 Posts
May 15 2010 11:28 GMT
#60
i really think kangmin (Nal_rA) has a good pt. at this stage, no player can hope to play straight up and expect to beat flash. one can only hope that specially pre'ed and map specific builds tailored for the match will stand any reasonable chance vs flash.

its like back when Nal_rA cannon rushed savior in his prime. the rush was very well thought out that would not have worked on any other map. you simply need to innovate some never-seen-before tricks to beat an opponent who's skills are clearly out of your league.
...from the land of imba
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