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On May 28 2011 18:52 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 18:43 KlaCkoN wrote:On May 28 2011 18:03 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Anyhow I think the article misses out on something that defined the term bonjwa. Let's exclude Flash from this and I'll address that later.
The separating factor between Boxer/Nada/Oov/Savior and other dominant players such as July and Jaedong is that they dominated through innovation. No other players have changed the game in a more fundamental way than those four, the domination was what came about because of their innovation. They not only dominated the game, but did so in a way that completely mystified fans and other players alike -- it wasn't an issue of how good, or successful they were, as these things were just side effects of their gamechanging ways.
. This is ironic because "bonjwa" was orginally a term used by July fans to describe his dominance =p Anyway I was arguing that jaedong should be bonjwa even before flash rose to surpremacy and I still consider him one, afterall the only reliable measure of dominance is how much you win, and jaedong has been winning a lot more than savior ever did. If people want to talk about "innovation" that mostly feels like after the fact rationalisation to me, but sure. How did jaedong changing pvz from the sunken based to style popular under savior to the mass unit style popular a year or two ago matter less than the defiler turtling zvt style perfected by savior? Not to mention the current scourge rush to counter sair openings which is the basis on which all modern zvp is built as well as mid game muta switches vs templars are both more or less jaedongs inventions. (July did a lot of lurker -> muta but it generally with different intentions, besides it's not like anyone never defiler turtled or went 3 hatch muta before savior either) Savior was a bonjwa because people were absolutely at a loss for how good he was and how much he changed ZvT and ZvP. He was so good he confused people with it. Jaedong just won a lot, and there's a big distinction. And if you're even slightly considering Jaedong has changed broodwar as much as Savior then you're insane. Every ZvT and ZvP is still built on Savior's basics, and Jaedong's new ZvP doesn't look so great if you ask me. I'm not going to define every change the bonjwas did to verify what I said because frankly I am not well learned enough at BW or eloquent enough to do it justice.
Well then I'm insane :p I watched most of saviors games ever since he went for 3 hat before pool vs oov on into the darkness while still called ipx. He was awesome we all agree on that but most of what he did had been done before, in one form or another, he was just a lot better at it. (Sound familiar?) I still think his main long term contribution was defiler micro. And how is zvp today based on how savior played it? Savior zvp was mostly ´do some damage with mutal -> sunken/spore/lurker turtle until ultras´. Jaedongs scourge -> mass hydra - > mass hydraling lurker style was the direct opposite of that. And with it he "solved" the sair DT problem that shut down saviors original style. Very modern zvp looks different again sure but that's not very relevant
Ugh I dunnu, details are definitely going to bite me in the ass but I really do think savior in particular is massively over romantisised on tl and I disagree when people say that jaedong has not influenced the game as much as him.
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For me, you can't have two bonjwa's at the same time. In fact, its against the very definition of bonjwa.
If you accept this criteria you gotta argue that time period before flash came into Top 2 and JD was threatening. But i doubt thats long enough and the titles aren't there.
Sorry JD.
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after savior's match-fixing scandal, the term 'bonjwa' is almost dead in korean starcraft community. and flash is commonly considered as god (of starcraft) rather than bonjwa, because his achievements in 2010 was far more dominating than any other bonjwa had.
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It comes down to a unique situation, where the two best players in the world rise up at about the same time, where they are both high up on a massive platform in front of the masses. The two players battle it out, with gameplay that is so superior to those that have come before them. They aren't trailblazers. They aren't grand inventors with radically new ideas that forever change how broodwar is played. They are the kind of players who just play with pure brilliance and machine-like mechanics that make them appear to be untouchable. They put fear into their opponent by stepping into the booth. They give you the sense that, if you do not play an absolutely perfect game, you will lose. No player has ever had that type of aura around them. Flash is called "God" for a reason.
At a time where both of these players were at their most fierce, they played in three consecutive finals. Both were put on stage in front of the whole world, and everyone knew that the winner would be, undoubtedly, the best player to have played the game. They are both superior in mechanics and overall game understanding, thanks to those that had come before them and layed the groundwork. They are the product of 12 years of study and execution. They are engineered to be the best possible players of the game. Flash makes the most insane run, referred to as his "Dream year", taking out Jaedong in both MSL finals and an OSL final. Flash comes out on top looking unbeatable. He is different, in that he is absolutely the most dominating player to have played, not because of his strategies, maneuvering, tactics, or builds. It is because he just IS the best.
Unfortunately for Jaedong, he was built to combat with one Flash for the ultimate player. This era's bonjwa was not to be made possible by the insanely creative builds of a boxer, or the brilliant tactfulness of an oov, the genius game play of a NaDa, or a lone soldier forging a trail for an entire race like saviOr did. This era's bonjwa was to be determined by taking every chapter from the book written by the greats of past times, and using all of the information and knowledge to create the perfect player.
That player is Flash. Not Jaedong.
There can only be one.
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On May 28 2011 18:15 fearus wrote:
to be fair Bisu should be more a bonjwa, if the most successful protoss isn't a bonjwa then we can conclude that bw is imba.
Nothing to do with race imbalance. Stork, Best, and Jangbi at various times in their careers have shown it is possible to dominate PvT. Bisu has shown that it is possible to dominate PvZ. The problem is that no one protoss player has been able to dominate all matchups over a long period of time the way the bonjwas did. Bisu would probably have been crowned a bonjwa had he not lost to Mind in the GOM Season 3 MSL and gone into a hard slump afterwards. There is no affirmative action for handing out bonjwa titles. Blame the players, not the race they play.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Jaezong is bad at starcfarft. Lose to noob Zerio.
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10387 Posts
On May 28 2011 19:05 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 18:15 fearus wrote:
to be fair Bisu should be more a bonjwa, if the most successful protoss isn't a bonjwa then we can conclude that bw is imba. Except most A class protoss have better PvT than Bisu. It's not the race, he's just not good enough. Flash is by far the best terran in all 3 matchups. So is Jaedong for zerg when he's at the top of his game.
Yep everyone's soooo much better at PvT than Bisu, when he currently holds the highest PvT ELO atm along w/ the third highest peak PvT ELO of all time.. Bisu's periods of dominance are just too short for him to be legitly considered bonjwa :\
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Imo... I think Jaedong should be one of the bonjwas a long with Bisu, Jaedong is clearly the best Zerg in the world. a long with Bisu being the best Protoss in the world. In my book they are bonjwas though they don't show it.... Jaedong and Bisu were only dominating for a short time...
Flash is the best Terran in the world, Jaedong is the best Zerg in the world and Bisu is the best Protoss in the world.
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which a class pvters are better than bisu?
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On May 28 2011 19:37 Roffles wrote:
Jaezong is bad at starcfarft. Lose to noob Zerio.
That some kind hybrid of  ZerO and Zenio?
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On May 28 2011 17:25 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 17:22 moopie wrote:
He would have been considered one... if it wasn't for Flash. :3 considered? if it weren't for flash he would most definitely be crowned Bonjwa.
Bonjwa means unrivaled. Considering Jaedong and Flash have been butting heads against one another for the longest time, why do you think this conversation always popped up in the first place?
Why the heck you think fomos had to come up with the title "God" just so Flash could have something rather than nothing? As long as no one is dominating everything for a set period of time the term Bonjwa doesn't have the same meaning.
I don't know why this discussion is being brought back to the forefront after ZerO knocked him out. ZvZ is a bitch for Jaedong once again. I was surprised when I saw how lopsided the Liquibet was for Jaedong. I thought it would be 54-46 at the very least.
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Oh if only the Korean community had stuck with bonjwa being only for SaviOr rather than retroactively adding the old greats to the list, then we wouldn't have to have these discussions at all.
Personally I would throw in the argument that SaviOr and Bisu are the most impressive players in BW history, SaviOr for making ZvT look imbalanced in favour of Zerg and Bisu for making PvZ look imbalanced in favour of Protoss.
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Power Outage and him losing to Zero is not helping his case at all, although one of those isn't a very solid point.
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On May 28 2011 20:10 Goragoth wrote:
Oh if only the Korean community had stuck with bonjwa being only for SaviOr rather than retroactively adding the old greats to the list, then we wouldn't have to have these discussions at all.
Personally I would throw in the argument that SaviOr and Bisu are the most impressive players in BW history, SaviOr for making ZvT look imbalanced in favour of Zerg and Bisu for making PvZ look imbalanced in favour of Protoss.
flash made TvT imbalanced in favour of flash 
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On May 28 2011 20:17 thoradycus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 20:10 Goragoth wrote:
Oh if only the Korean community had stuck with bonjwa being only for SaviOr rather than retroactively adding the old greats to the list, then we wouldn't have to have these discussions at all.
Personally I would throw in the argument that SaviOr and Bisu are the most impressive players in BW history, SaviOr for making ZvT look imbalanced in favour of Zerg and Bisu for making PvZ look imbalanced in favour of Protoss. flash made TvT imbalanced in favour of flash
He made TvP on Katrina imbalanced in favor of T!
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From the article...
The split between the two could be generally resolved by assigning the basic definition as that of the South Korean community and the more complicated definition as that belonging to the Western community. Some Westerners will even fall back to the position that nobody from the West should use the term or attempt to apply it to anyone else, that instead only the South Koreans can agree on who a bonjwa is. Personally I'm of the opinion that terms can mean different things to different people and that this is a useful term for differentiating between the really good players and the truly great players. As a result I choose to use it in this article and apply it according to my own definitions.
So your point is that under your own definition, which you admit is different to the definition of Koreans, JD is bonjwa? Then why use a Korean term at all?
Because all terms mean different things to different people, I'm going to define "donkey" as the best current zerg.
JD is a donkey.
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I thought we were done with these bonjwa threads. If people can't agree on it, then he isn't. Jaedong has been my favorite player ever since his royal road, but I don't feel the need to call him a bonjwa when he isn't.
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On May 28 2011 20:36 raviy wrote:From the article... Show nested quote +The split between the two could be generally resolved by assigning the basic definition as that of the South Korean community and the more complicated definition as that belonging to the Western community. Some Westerners will even fall back to the position that nobody from the West should use the term or attempt to apply it to anyone else, that instead only the South Koreans can agree on who a bonjwa is. Personally I'm of the opinion that terms can mean different things to different people and that this is a useful term for differentiating between the really good players and the truly great players. As a result I choose to use it in this article and apply it according to my own definitions. So your point is that under your own definition, which you admit is different to the definition of Koreans, JD is bonjwa? Then why use a Korean term at all? Because all terms mean different things to different people, I'm going to define "donkey" as the best current zerg. JD is a donkey.
lmao.... All hail the donkey!
Ahhhhh~~~!!!!! Dooooonnnnnkeeeeeyyyyyyyyyy Plaaaaguuuuuuuu!!!
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pretty ridiculous debate
when jaedong has more final wins than 3 of the 4 bonjwas
he has also been consistent, managing a winning ratio over 65% for 4 years
while most of the bonjwas shined for 1 ~ 2 years and had a heavy drop in their ratio (except for nada of course)
jaedong's career>most bonjwas
pretty much every bonjwa except nada
no one in the korean community recognizes flash as a bonjwa
im perplexed that the foreign community would just recognize flash as a bonjwa
when "bonjwa" itself is a korean term in the first place
I think the word bonjwa should no longer be used and flash and jaedong both exceeded
"bonjwa"
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On May 28 2011 19:44 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 19:05 hypercube wrote:On May 28 2011 18:15 fearus wrote:
to be fair Bisu should be more a bonjwa, if the most successful protoss isn't a bonjwa then we can conclude that bw is imba. Except most A class protoss have better PvT than Bisu. It's not the race, he's just not good enough. Flash is by far the best terran in all 3 matchups. So is Jaedong for zerg when he's at the top of his game. Yep everyone's soooo much better at PvT than Bisu, when he currently holds the highest PvT ELO atm along w/ the third highest peak PvT ELO of all time.. Bisu's periods of dominance are just too short for him to be legitly considered bonjwa :\
His PvT did suck back when he lost to Mind, or at the very least sucked for the level of player he was. It's fluctuated between the best and mediocre throughout his career and you can definitely say Bisu has never had consistently dominant PvT.
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EPT
