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On May 28 2011 18:15 fearus wrote: to be fair Bisu should be more a bonjwa, if the most successful protoss isn't a bonjwa then we can conclude that bw is imba.
its okay, we'll make a super special position just for bisu
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Really? Well then. Guess I don't listen well. Thanks for telling me before I made more of a fool of myself.
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On May 28 2011 17:56 jjhchsc2 wrote: This is about JD not flash. No shit flash is bonjwa. Flash's career is relevant to a discussion about why it's not obvious whether Jaedong should be in the line. I recommend http://www.hookedonphonics.com/.
On May 28 2011 18:03 TwoToneTerran wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Anyhow I think the article misses out on something that defined the term bonjwa. Let's exclude Flash from this and I'll address that later.
The separating factor between Boxer/Nada/Oov/Savior and other dominant players such as July and Jaedong is that they dominated through innovation. No other players have changed the game in a more fundamental way than those four, the domination was what came about because of their innovation. They not only dominated the game, but did so in a way that completely mystified fans and other players alike -- it wasn't an issue of how good, or successful they were, as these things were just side effects of their gamechanging ways.
For instance, Savior was a bonjwa even when he only had 2 MSL titles, and even after he lost to Chojja in the MSL while dropping in qualifiers of the OSL. Oov was the most dominant player on the scene through his gamechanging macro plays despite not qualifying for an OSL (though the term was not created at this time, he still had this level of domination and mystique). This entire article does nothing but cite titles and how deep Jaedong has made runs into starleagues over a very long period of time. Jaedong might be the most impressively consistent player since Nada, but Nada was not given the moniker of Bonjwa because he could come back five years after his time of dominance and still win an OSL, it was what he did in a brief period years before in how he changed the game and dominated through it.
This is why I believe Flash being a bonjwa is an aberration. Flash has not fundamentally changed the game in even close to the same way Boxer, Nada, Oov and Savior have -- I'd argue he hasn't changed the face of the game as much as even Jaedong. Flash's discrepancy is that he did achieve a level of dominant mystique similar to the bonjwas, but did it by creating so many different builds and tactics that, while not fundamentally changing the game, he rocked the foundation of the scene for a straight year in a way that not even previous bonjwas have. Flash became a bonjwa through sheer dominance at a level that Jaedong can't match, and did so at Jaedong's expense (Jaedong has been startingly consistent, but at no point in his career was he even close to what Flash did in 2010).
This is not a slight to Jaedong, as Flash clearly isn't the same level of dominant he was in 2010 and I think it is completely unreasonable to expect that out of anyone. Becoming a bonjwa through sheer domination as this article implies is almost impossible and Jaedong has not done that. He has not reached a level of domination through innovation that every non-Flash bonjwa has. He comes up short in the particular reasons that the other Bonjwas are considered, and frankly it's not that fair because I don't think any player has worked as hard for his success as Jaedong.
Flash is a completely different bonjwa from the previous ones, and Jaedong has not lived up to that level of dominance (It took flash beating Jaedong in both finals to do it, what has Jaedong done similarly?), and unless Jaedong finds something out that rocks the foundation of broodwar from a sheer fundamental standpoint and uses that to dominate, he's not going to have the same mystique that the others had and receive their monikers through. Should we go through their contributions to SC theory? Jaedong has brought 5 hatch hydra to the forefront of ZvP, and even now he's trying to move to a standard of 6hatch4base hive management, right? He's birthed modern ZvZ, which hasn't been undone by any demonstration that hive ZvZ can do better (hive right now is just an extension, albeit these days better understood). Also, he standardized aggressive 2 hatch muta against T, although recently he's also shifted his ZvT to prefer 3 hatch openings.
Whereas you think Flash's contributions are more numerous but not as game changing, but he was clearly more dominant. I think Terran has always had an easier time at the very top than Zerg.
On May 28 2011 18:10 Gifted.TempO wrote: I've been following the Brood War scene for a while and what I missed before I started playing, I've gone back and caught up on the modern history of Starcraft. Would someone please tell me why Flash and Jaedong are considered for Bonjwa-ness? Don't get me wrong, I love both of them, but they haven't dominated long enough nor considerably enough in my opinion to be considered Bonjwas. They are VERY good players and would hand my ass to me on a silver (or gold) platter, but there is simply not enough evidence to support either one being crowned a Bonjwa. There is no Bonjwa right now and there hasn't been for some time. Best player in the world =/= Bonjwa. That's my two cents. I cheer for Jaedong, but this disrespects Flash's accomplishments.
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He is always in the shadow of Flash,if Flash wasn`t the god of BW of course JD would be considered a Bonjwa. I don`t think there can be 2 bonjwas at the same time.
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On May 28 2011 18:25 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 17:56 jjhchsc2 wrote: This is about JD not flash. No shit flash is bonjwa. Flash's career is relevant to a discussion about why it's not obvious whether Jaedong should be in the line. I recommend http://www.hookedonphonics.com/. Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 18:03 TwoToneTerran wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Anyhow I think the article misses out on something that defined the term bonjwa. Let's exclude Flash from this and I'll address that later.
The separating factor between Boxer/Nada/Oov/Savior and other dominant players such as July and Jaedong is that they dominated through innovation. No other players have changed the game in a more fundamental way than those four, the domination was what came about because of their innovation. They not only dominated the game, but did so in a way that completely mystified fans and other players alike -- it wasn't an issue of how good, or successful they were, as these things were just side effects of their gamechanging ways.
For instance, Savior was a bonjwa even when he only had 2 MSL titles, and even after he lost to Chojja in the MSL while dropping in qualifiers of the OSL. Oov was the most dominant player on the scene through his gamechanging macro plays despite not qualifying for an OSL (though the term was not created at this time, he still had this level of domination and mystique). This entire article does nothing but cite titles and how deep Jaedong has made runs into starleagues over a very long period of time. Jaedong might be the most impressively consistent player since Nada, but Nada was not given the moniker of Bonjwa because he could come back five years after his time of dominance and still win an OSL, it was what he did in a brief period years before in how he changed the game and dominated through it.
This is why I believe Flash being a bonjwa is an aberration. Flash has not fundamentally changed the game in even close to the same way Boxer, Nada, Oov and Savior have -- I'd argue he hasn't changed the face of the game as much as even Jaedong. Flash's discrepancy is that he did achieve a level of dominant mystique similar to the bonjwas, but did it by creating so many different builds and tactics that, while not fundamentally changing the game, he rocked the foundation of the scene for a straight year in a way that not even previous bonjwas have. Flash became a bonjwa through sheer dominance at a level that Jaedong can't match, and did so at Jaedong's expense (Jaedong has been startingly consistent, but at no point in his career was he even close to what Flash did in 2010).
This is not a slight to Jaedong, as Flash clearly isn't the same level of dominant he was in 2010 and I think it is completely unreasonable to expect that out of anyone. Becoming a bonjwa through sheer domination as this article implies is almost impossible and Jaedong has not done that. He has not reached a level of domination through innovation that every non-Flash bonjwa has. He comes up short in the particular reasons that the other Bonjwas are considered, and frankly it's not that fair because I don't think any player has worked as hard for his success as Jaedong.
Flash is a completely different bonjwa from the previous ones, and Jaedong has not lived up to that level of dominance (It took flash beating Jaedong in both finals to do it, what has Jaedong done similarly?), and unless Jaedong finds something out that rocks the foundation of broodwar from a sheer fundamental standpoint and uses that to dominate, he's not going to have the same mystique that the others had and receive their monikers through. Should we go through their contributions to SC theory? Jaedong has brought 5 hatch hydra to the forefront of ZvP, and even now he's trying to move to a standard of 6hatch4base hive management, right? He's birthed modern ZvZ, which hasn't been undone by any demonstration that hive ZvZ can do better (hive right now is just an extension, albeit these days better understood). Also, he standardized aggressive 2 hatch muta against T, although recently he's also shifted his ZvT to prefer 3 hatch openings. Whereas you think Flash's contributions are more numerous but not as game changing, but he was clearly more dominant. I think Terran has always had an easier time at the very top than Zerg.
Flash's changes have been more subtle. He changed the timings for TvZ/ZvT, he invented the Flash Build and improved everything else thanks to his mechanics
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On May 28 2011 18:25 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 17:56 jjhchsc2 wrote: This is about JD not flash. No shit flash is bonjwa. Flash's career is relevant to a discussion about why it's not obvious whether Jaedong should be in the line. I recommend http://www.hookedonphonics.com/. Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 18:03 TwoToneTerran wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Anyhow I think the article misses out on something that defined the term bonjwa. Let's exclude Flash from this and I'll address that later.
The separating factor between Boxer/Nada/Oov/Savior and other dominant players such as July and Jaedong is that they dominated through innovation. No other players have changed the game in a more fundamental way than those four, the domination was what came about because of their innovation. They not only dominated the game, but did so in a way that completely mystified fans and other players alike -- it wasn't an issue of how good, or successful they were, as these things were just side effects of their gamechanging ways.
For instance, Savior was a bonjwa even when he only had 2 MSL titles, and even after he lost to Chojja in the MSL while dropping in qualifiers of the OSL. Oov was the most dominant player on the scene through his gamechanging macro plays despite not qualifying for an OSL (though the term was not created at this time, he still had this level of domination and mystique). This entire article does nothing but cite titles and how deep Jaedong has made runs into starleagues over a very long period of time. Jaedong might be the most impressively consistent player since Nada, but Nada was not given the moniker of Bonjwa because he could come back five years after his time of dominance and still win an OSL, it was what he did in a brief period years before in how he changed the game and dominated through it.
This is why I believe Flash being a bonjwa is an aberration. Flash has not fundamentally changed the game in even close to the same way Boxer, Nada, Oov and Savior have -- I'd argue he hasn't changed the face of the game as much as even Jaedong. Flash's discrepancy is that he did achieve a level of dominant mystique similar to the bonjwas, but did it by creating so many different builds and tactics that, while not fundamentally changing the game, he rocked the foundation of the scene for a straight year in a way that not even previous bonjwas have. Flash became a bonjwa through sheer dominance at a level that Jaedong can't match, and did so at Jaedong's expense (Jaedong has been startingly consistent, but at no point in his career was he even close to what Flash did in 2010).
This is not a slight to Jaedong, as Flash clearly isn't the same level of dominant he was in 2010 and I think it is completely unreasonable to expect that out of anyone. Becoming a bonjwa through sheer domination as this article implies is almost impossible and Jaedong has not done that. He has not reached a level of domination through innovation that every non-Flash bonjwa has. He comes up short in the particular reasons that the other Bonjwas are considered, and frankly it's not that fair because I don't think any player has worked as hard for his success as Jaedong.
Flash is a completely different bonjwa from the previous ones, and Jaedong has not lived up to that level of dominance (It took flash beating Jaedong in both finals to do it, what has Jaedong done similarly?), and unless Jaedong finds something out that rocks the foundation of broodwar from a sheer fundamental standpoint and uses that to dominate, he's not going to have the same mystique that the others had and receive their monikers through. Should we go through their contributions to SC theory? Jaedong has brought 5 hatch hydra to the forefront of ZvP, and even now he's trying to move to a standard of 6hatch4base hive management, right? He's birthed modern ZvZ, which hasn't been undone by any demonstration that hive ZvZ can do better (hive right now is just an extension, albeit these days better understood). Also, he standardized aggressive 2 hatch muta against T, although recently he's also shifted his ZvT to prefer 3 hatch openings. Whereas you think Flash's contributions are more numerous but not as game changing, but he was clearly more dominant. I think Terran has always had an easier time at the very top than Zerg. Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 18:10 Gifted.TempO wrote: I've been following the Brood War scene for a while and what I missed before I started playing, I've gone back and caught up on the modern history of Starcraft. Would someone please tell me why Flash and Jaedong are considered for Bonjwa-ness? Don't get me wrong, I love both of them, but they haven't dominated long enough nor considerably enough in my opinion to be considered Bonjwas. They are VERY good players and would hand my ass to me on a silver (or gold) platter, but there is simply not enough evidence to support either one being crowned a Bonjwa. There is no Bonjwa right now and there hasn't been for some time. Best player in the world =/= Bonjwa. That's my two cents. I cheer for Jaedong, but this disrespects Flash's accomplishments.
I don't think Flash's contributions are more numerous, I just think he has more unique -- and winning -- builds than other current players (I'm sorry fantasy fans, his unique builds are way more unique but hardly more numerous than Flash's if only because he doesn't play as many important games/series). My point was their altering of the game itself is comparable to each other, but nothing compared to the bonjwas and that's why neither was considered bonjwas until Flash's dream run in 2010 -- which, as I said, is a completely weird aberration of how bonjwas rose.
Man, I remember when just saying bonjwa was a bannable offense. Good job, Flash.
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On May 28 2011 18:03 TwoToneTerran wrote: Anyhow I think the article misses out on something that defined the term bonjwa. Let's exclude Flash from this and I'll address that later.
The separating factor between Boxer/Nada/Oov/Savior and other dominant players such as July and Jaedong is that they dominated through innovation. No other players have changed the game in a more fundamental way than those four, the domination was what came about because of their innovation. They not only dominated the game, but did so in a way that completely mystified fans and other players alike -- it wasn't an issue of how good, or successful they were, as these things were just side effects of their gamechanging ways.
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This is ironic because "bonjwa" was orginally a term used by July fans to describe his dominance =p
Anyway I was arguing that jaedong should be bonjwa even before flash rose to surpremacy and I still consider him one, afterall the only reliable measure of dominance is how much you win, and jaedong has been winning a lot more than savior ever did. If people want to talk about "innovation" that mostly feels like after the fact rationalisation to me, but sure. How did jaedong changing pvz from the sunken based to style popular under savior to the mass unit style popular a year or two ago matter less than the defiler turtling zvt style perfected by savior? Not to mention the current scourge rush to counter sair openings which is the basis on which all modern zvp is built as well as mid game muta switches vs templars are both more or less jaedongs inventions. (July did a lot of lurker -> muta but it generally with different intentions, besides it's not like anyone never defiler turtled or went 3 hatch muta before savior either)
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The true, over-shadowed Kong Line is the most painful: to never be realized as a true Bonjwa, because of one man your equal.
Jaedong suffers as Second.
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On May 28 2011 18:43 KlaCkoN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 18:03 TwoToneTerran wrote: Anyhow I think the article misses out on something that defined the term bonjwa. Let's exclude Flash from this and I'll address that later.
The separating factor between Boxer/Nada/Oov/Savior and other dominant players such as July and Jaedong is that they dominated through innovation. No other players have changed the game in a more fundamental way than those four, the domination was what came about because of their innovation. They not only dominated the game, but did so in a way that completely mystified fans and other players alike -- it wasn't an issue of how good, or successful they were, as these things were just side effects of their gamechanging ways.
. This is ironic because "bonjwa" was orginally a term used by July fans to describe his dominance =p Anyway I was arguing that jaedong should be bonjwa even before flash rose to surpremacy and I still consider him one, afterall the only reliable measure of dominance is how much you win, and jaedong has been winning a lot more than savior ever did. If people want to talk about "innovation" that mostly feels like after the fact rationalisation to me, but sure. How did jaedong changing pvz from the sunken based to style popular under savior to the mass unit style popular a year or two ago matter less than the defiler turtling zvt style perfected by savior? Not to mention the current scourge rush to counter sair openings which is the basis on which all modern zvp is built as well as mid game muta switches vs templars are both more or less jaedongs inventions. (July did a lot of lurker -> muta but it generally with different intentions, besides it's not like anyone never defiler turtled or went 3 hatch muta before savior either)
Savior was a bonjwa because people were absolutely at a loss for how good he was and how much he changed ZvT and ZvP. He was so good he confused people with it. Jaedong just won a lot, and there's a big distinction. And if you're even slightly considering Jaedong has changed broodwar as much as Savior then you're insane. Every ZvT and ZvP is still built on Savior's basics, and Jaedong's new ZvP doesn't look so great if you ask me.
I'm not going to define every change the bonjwas did to verify what I said because frankly I am not well learned enough at BW or eloquent enough to do it justice.
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On May 28 2011 18:10 epi wrote: Any bonjwa discussion that brings in numbers misses the point.
This post gets way too little attention. It may sound overly simple, but that's about it. If you have to go ahead and write a huge article about why someone should be considered a bonjwa and make up a number of insignificant statistics that no one cares about you're pretty much cementing that whoever you're arguing for is in fact not a bonjwa.
Semi-Final appearances? Wtf? Seriously, when has anyone ever cared about how often Ayrton Senna has gotten 3rd? Or even 2nd? Why not add quarter-final appearances to the list? Or qualifying at all? My comparison might be a bit off, but you get the drill.
For all his accomplishments Jaedong just never had that moment or time when people were just gazing united in awe at what he was doing. He never had that "Ok, that's it. He's Bonjwa." coming from even the sturdiest anti-fans.
On a side note I would say Jaedong was at his overall prime at the same time that Flash was and Flash beat him convincingly. Remember, Jaedong had his first dual finals appearance for example. They were both rising to new heights, but whatever Jaedong did, Flash got the better of him.
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On May 28 2011 17:44 HuskyMUDKIPZ wrote: I love how people comment "Jaedong is/isn't a bonjwa" without reading the damn article. Very well written and definitely a very logical way of showing that he should be considered a bonjwa.
It doesnt matter what he says....this isnt something new...its not even something that wasnt long debated. Just because someone makes a new article and gives his opinion it doesnt mean sh*t because its just HIS oppinion no matter how fancy or how stats backed it is.
JD was great, still is great and like someone said is probably the best non bonjwa player ever.
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flash did beat jaedong, but i was pretty disappointed with the trilogy of flash > jaedong finals.not trying to take anything away from flash, but i wouldve liked something, eh, more conclusive? to settle the score between them
korea air osl was 3 games of cheese and 1 semi decent game which really wasnt very good either =/. it was even worse than hana bank which was an utter beatdown
bigfile was my favourite, but odd eye + 2x polaris =/. the fighting spirit game was really nice though, i think if it was 5x fighting spirit, things couldve been different (or not, who knows)
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On May 28 2011 18:15 fearus wrote: to be fair Bisu should be more a bonjwa, if the most successful protoss isn't a bonjwa then we can conclude that bw is imba.
Except most A class protoss have better PvT than Bisu. It's not the race, he's just not good enough. Flash is by far the best terran in all 3 matchups. So is Jaedong for zerg when he's at the top of his game.
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On May 28 2011 19:05 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 18:15 fearus wrote: to be fair Bisu should be more a bonjwa, if the most successful protoss isn't a bonjwa then we can conclude that bw is imba. Except most A class protoss have better PvT than Bisu. It's not the race, he's just not good enough. Flash is by far the best terran in all 3 matchups. So is Jaedong for zerg when he's at the top of his game.
It depends on how you're talking. Relatively Oov had better TvZ than Flash and Savior had better ZvT than Jaedong for their era. Clearly they're not as good now but I think you have to define all greats by relation to their era.
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On May 28 2011 19:05 Legatus Lanius wrote: flash did beat jaedong, but i was pretty disappointed with the trilogy of flash > jaedong finals.not trying to take anything away from flash, but i wouldve liked something, eh, more conclusive? to settle the score between them
korea air osl was 3 games of cheese and 1 semi decent game which really wasnt very good either =/. it was even worse than hana bank which was an utter beatdown
bigfile was my favourite, but odd eye + 2x polaris =/. the fighting spirit game was really nice though, i think if it was 5x fighting spirit, things couldve been different (or not, who knows)
Their best games were probably at WCG Korea and WCG Grand Finals.
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Can't really give someone the bonjwa title retroactively.
I don't see why it really matters though. As I've said many times, JD doesn't settle for bonjwa; he's going for GOAT.
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On May 28 2011 19:07 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 19:05 hypercube wrote:On May 28 2011 18:15 fearus wrote: to be fair Bisu should be more a bonjwa, if the most successful protoss isn't a bonjwa then we can conclude that bw is imba. Except most A class protoss have better PvT than Bisu. It's not the race, he's just not good enough. Flash is by far the best terran in all 3 matchups. So is Jaedong for zerg when he's at the top of his game. It depends on how you're talking. Relatively Oov had better TvZ than Flash and Savior had better ZvT than Jaedong for their era. Clearly they're not as good now but I think you have to define all greats by relation to their era.
I meant among their contemporaries. Was Bisu ever considered the best PvT player at the time? Most of the time he wasn't even top 3. Stork, Best and Jangbi were better even in 2008/2009.
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On May 28 2011 19:11 Holgerius wrote:Can't really give someone the bonjwa title retroactively.
except for the majority of bonjwas...?
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On May 28 2011 19:11 Holgerius wrote:Can't really give someone the bonjwa title retroactively. I don't see why it really matters though. As I've said many times, JD doesn't settle for bonjwa; he's going for GOAT.
Really? We do for boxer, nada, and oov.
However, I think it a fundamental misunderstanding of the word to apply it to anyone but MJY.
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