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1375 Posts
On January 14 2011 06:28 hacklebeast wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 06:12 integral wrote:
I honestly can't believe people think oov was more dominant. ELO peak almost 75 higher than anyone ever, sustained ELO consistently above oov's peak (still is right now), dual finals three times in a row, and on and on. People saying that oov made good players look terrible is a joke, flash makes players twice as skilled as anyone oov ever played look like B-team scrubs. Flash has not only dominated the hardest anyone ever has, he's done it against by far the most skilled competition in the most difficult era of Brood War.
This isn't even a question, you have to use a pretty squirrely definition of dominance to come to any different conclusion. Oov never lost a finals, but he never had to prepare for more than one at a time because oov always lost in the earlier rounds of one tournament. More dominant than flash, get the fuck out of here. Well look at it this way, who is flash's main competitor? Jaedong, obviously. As much as flash fans would not like to admit it, or point at his 3-1 finals record, he is still 20-19 vs jaedong Who is/was oov's main competitor? Nada? July? There just wasn't anyone close to him in his prime. You would have to be delusional to say that Jaedong wasn't even close to Flash.
The difference is, the majority of Jaedong's wins over Flash came before Flash went into godmode last year. Taking the starting point of Flash's dominance as the 2009 Ever OSL, he is 14-8 vs Jaedong in standard leagues.
Similarly, if you look at iloveoov's records against all the top players for all time, it's not nearly as impressive. He's 13-12 vs July, 5-4 vs Boxer, 0-6 (!) vs Savior, 2-4 vs Anytime. He did dominate Nada with 16-6, Nal_rA 9-4, Kingdom 9-5, Reach 10-6 lifetime, but Flash has done the same to many more (and better) players. Flash is 13-5 vs Fantasy, 12-8 Bisu, 7-9 vs Stork. In fact, Stork and Skyhigh (a well-known TvT sniper) are the only two players that have an even or winning record against Flash in standard leagues. iloveoov on the other hand has even or losing records vs multiple players, including Flash himself.
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oov is transmitting his powers through fantasy.
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even though I love oov, Flash is just taken domination to a completely new level. And im not saying that as merely a Flash fanboy.
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On January 14 2011 07:29 Musou wrote:
Similarly, if you look at iloveoov's records against all the top players for all time, it's not nearly as impressive. He's 13-12 vs July, 5-4 vs Boxer, 0-6 (!) vs Savior, 2-4 vs Anytime. He did dominate Nada with 16-6, Nal_rA 9-4, Kingdom 9-5, Reach 10-6 lifetime, but Flash has done the same to many more (and better) players. Flash is 13-5 vs Fantasy, 12-8 Bisu, 7-9 vs Stork. In fact, Stork and Skyhigh (a well-known TvT sniper) are the only two players that have an even or winning record against Flash in standard leagues. iloveoov on the other hand has even or losing records vs multiple players, including Flash himself.
Perhaps you haven't realized it but all of the players you listed as oov's opponents were starleague winners. Two of them golden mouse winners. Oov not only dominated, he dominated against the best players of all time, all S-class players. Perhaps he didn't have a huge winning streak against all of them, but he won when it mattered and that brought him his unmatched 5-0 finals and win streaks.
Flash dominated against mostly mediocre players, with only bisu and jaedong being anywhere near as good, and both of those dominated everyone else too at the time due to everyone else simply not being S-class. Flash fans are generally delusional to think that the current competition for Flash is anywhere near as good as oov's was. Who will remember Kal, Calm, Shine and so on, years from now? Unless they get their shit together, noone. Only bisu, JD and maybe stork stand out. That's three people you have to avoid to get your starleague win.
This is also why I think Nada's simultaneous starleague wins matter more than flash's. Actually nada won 3 starleagues at the same time, with the other league going broke later on. In any case, same deal as with oov, he did it against horrible odds.
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The odds are actually more horrible for one player to dominate later in the game than it is to do the same thing earlier on though.
I still don't see how you can dismiss the fact that Flash made it to finals of both leagues while iloveoov didn't.
If you're in both finals you have less chance to win any of them. Thats why so few have ever done it. Flash made dual finals three times in a row, iloveoov didn't even do it once.
Sometimes it feels like, if Flash takes a gold and a silver during one season it counts for less than one gold for iloveoov, and thats really wierd. You're basically saying that if Flash had lost earlier on in the one he got silver in he'd be more dominant.
Hey if Flash didn't get into two more finals, where he got silver, he'd have 100% winratio in finals aswell. Then he would truely have dominated! Makes no sense...
Flash in 2010 was in every final. Oov during his prime got to 50% of them.
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past is always glamorized. I think flash is the most dominant ever.
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On January 14 2011 05:26 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 05:19 IntoTheWow wrote:
The savior part is true though. Look at the map stats and savior stats on that map :p And Flash dominated Tosses on Medusa and Katrina.
are we really gonna start comparing Savior's TvZ on bad maps vs. Flash's TvP on bad maps? 
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United States10398 Posts
FlaSh 2010 > Oov 2003-2004. No question. Although oov DOES have a better finals record...
What about sAviOr's 2006-2007 reign??? anyone forgetting the maestro???
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Imagine a player coming out of nowhere right now, obliterating Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu all into a slump.
Because that's what iloveoov did, at a time where an eclectic school of half a dozen S-class players each with their style of their own were duking it out for supremacy. Back then, there were many more players performing at their "peak" because the game was less diluted to certain winning styles of play. The cheating gorilla style was the first "winning style of play," one that changed the landscape of BW.
This is not a way to prove a player is more dominant than the other. However, oov was the first that actually made people cry out for someone to dethrone him (which Savior did)
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On January 14 2011 08:09 FireBlast! wrote:
Imagine a player coming out of nowhere right now, obliterating Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu all into a slump.
If he could just get into 1 finals at a time he still wouldn't be as dominating as Flash's run.
There wasn't a finals in 2010 where Flash wasn't the opponent. Thats how dominating he was.
This while he dominated the proleague. I don't see how oov can beat that...
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On January 14 2011 01:11 Invictus wrote:
oov is pretty much still influencing bw through fantasy, so you can't count him out right now.
i hate to admit but flash probably has the longest dominance in bw during late 2009-2010 where he just looked totally unstoppable while jaedong in 2009 would lose to random scrubs here and there even though he was pretty beastly in a BO5.
im not sure how bw will move on from now on, jaedong seems to be more and more inconsistent lately while flash is slowing regaining composure, while stork just seems to be more and more godly.
Lets hope for a protoss domination ^_^
I think its the nature of the race and the Terran matchups that allow them to be so consistent unlike Zerg/Protoss.
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1375 Posts
On January 14 2011 07:43 LG)Sabbath wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 07:29 Musou wrote:
Similarly, if you look at iloveoov's records against all the top players for all time, it's not nearly as impressive. He's 13-12 vs July, 5-4 vs Boxer, 0-6 (!) vs Savior, 2-4 vs Anytime. He did dominate Nada with 16-6, Nal_rA 9-4, Kingdom 9-5, Reach 10-6 lifetime, but Flash has done the same to many more (and better) players. Flash is 13-5 vs Fantasy, 12-8 Bisu, 7-9 vs Stork. In fact, Stork and Skyhigh (a well-known TvT sniper) are the only two players that have an even or winning record against Flash in standard leagues. iloveoov on the other hand has even or losing records vs multiple players, including Flash himself. Perhaps you haven't realized it but all of the players you listed as oov's opponents were starleague winners. Two of them golden mouse winners. Oov not only dominated, he dominated against the best players of all time, all S-class players. Perhaps he didn't have a huge winning streak against all of them, but he won when it mattered and that brought him his unmatched 5-0 finals and win streaks. Flash dominated against mostly mediocre players, with only bisu and jaedong being anywhere near as good, and both of those dominated everyone else too at the time due to everyone else simply not being S-class. Flash fans are generally delusional to think that the current competition for Flash is anywhere near as good as oov's was. Who will remember Kal, Calm, Shine and so on, years from now? Unless they get their shit together, noone. Only bisu, JD and maybe stork stand out. That's three people you have to avoid to get your starleague win. This is also why I think Nada's simultaneous starleague wins matter more than flash's. Actually nada won 3 starleagues at the same time, with the other league going broke later on. In any case, same deal as with oov, he did it against horrible odds.
The entire reason Flash dominates against so-called "mediocre" players is precisely because he exists. The thing is, there are no other Starleague winners for Flash to dominate because Flash and Jaedong have won all of them since he appeared on the scene. I didn't even bother listing records for players who won a single OSL or MSL and then never won anything ever again such as Mind, forGG, Luxury, Calm, or GGPlay. (For the record, none of them have a winning ratio against Flash either.) It just shows exactly how dominant Flash is over everyone else. oov dominated some of the best players at the time, but he was crushed by Savior. Flash has beaten basically everyone that has come his way and he isn't just known for his macro. He's dominant in every aspect of every matchup, including cheese, all-ins, timing attacks, and management games. He makes impossible comebacks possible and wins on maps that every other terran loses. oov revolutionized the game by changing the focus from micro to macro, but Flash has revolutionized TvP from losing to carriers with the Flash 2-1 double armory mech build and popularized and perfected the biomech transition in TvZ. Flash is also known for being the best TvTer of all time, using the new TvT style which was revolutionized by Xellos (who completely crushed oov). If you want to read about that, go here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=97332
You are right in that people are delusional if they think the current competition for Flash is anywhere near as good as oov's because they aren't as good, they're better. Current players play more games than ever, and the top players maintain a higher win ratio in all matchups than any of oov's opponents ever did.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On January 14 2011 08:21 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 08:09 FireBlast! wrote:
Imagine a player coming out of nowhere right now, obliterating Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu all into a slump.
If he could just get into 1 finals at a time he still wouldn't be as dominating as Flash's run. There wasn't a finals in 2010 where Flash wasn't the opponent. Thats how dominating he was. This while he dominated the proleague. I don't see how oov can beat that...
The guy made people look BAD. Fuck, we're talking about a guy who used to be credited with the longest TvZ winstreak at 27 games. Opened his career with 27 TvZ victories. He pretty much shit on everyone in the day, and he made them look SILLY. Crushed Nada, the Terran genius of the day. This guy was undoubtedly the best player for a year, and he made everyone look really really bad.
If you had a finals between Oov and anyone else, I'd pick Oov simply cause that guy was a champ when it mattered. If you had a finals between Flash and anyone else, there are times where I'd actually pick other players. Like if Flash played Jaedong on better maps, I'd pick JD to win over Flash. But back in those days, there was absolutely 0 doubt in anyone's mind that iloveoov was going to win the finals once he got there. Because he was that good.
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On January 14 2011 08:51 Roffles wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 08:21 StylishVODs wrote:On January 14 2011 08:09 FireBlast! wrote:
Imagine a player coming out of nowhere right now, obliterating Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu all into a slump.
If he could just get into 1 finals at a time he still wouldn't be as dominating as Flash's run. There wasn't a finals in 2010 where Flash wasn't the opponent. Thats how dominating he was. This while he dominated the proleague. I don't see how oov can beat that... The guy made people look BAD. Fuck, we're talking about a guy who used to be credited with the longest TvZ winstreak at 27 games. Opened his career with 27 TvZ victories. He pretty much shit on everyone in the day, and he made them look SILLY. Crushed Nada, the Terran genius of the day. This guy was undoubtedly the best player for a year, and he made everyone look really really bad. If you had a finals between Oov and anyone else, I'd pick Oov simply cause that guy was a champ when it mattered. If you had a finals between Flash and anyone else, there are times where I'd actually pick other players. Like if Flash played Jaedong on better maps, I'd pick JD to win over Flash. But back in those days, there was absolutely 0 doubt in anyone's mind that iloveoov was going to win the finals once he got there. Because he was that good.
So, if he really was that dominating, why didn't he keep on reaching dual finals?
Absolutely no matter how you look at things, 1 Gold+1 Silver>>>1 Gold.
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Let us not forget how much oov changed the game. If he had never played, you can be guranteed flash would not be as dominant as he is, because he would not have the strategies available to him that he does now.
Of course, flash is probably the most talented player to ever play this game etc etc.
The question for this debate is, would flash have dominated as he did if he played in oovs era and vice versa? Maybe less taletned oppenents, but also less strategies and builds.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
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No one ever will be as dominant as flash. It goes without argument. Flash has made best players look bad, not just beat them. If you talk about dominance you talk about flash. And this comes from an avid oov fanboy and flash hater.
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Thx to the OP for the interesting infos! Maybe we can produce some more Statistics; we could even have some starcraft history written down complete with contemporary witnesses .
Regarding the discussion around Flash and oov:
Flash will have to Beat Jaedong, Stork and Bisu in three consecutive Bo7 with one hand tied to his back before the foreign community will accept him as the greatest and most dominant player starcraft has yet seen. Let me look up some statistics and produce some nice graphics with them, and I will come right back!
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Lol I remember this thread. Great laugh.
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EPT
