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It's all a fairly pointless debate, one that could be carried on indefinitely. But, FWIW, I think jalstar's ranking is quite good (levels 0-2 feel right and I'm inclined to extrapolate to level 3).
+ Show Spoiler +On January 14 2011 10:27 jalstar wrote:Dominance Level 0: (3+ finals within a year, or 2+ finals within a year, winning 1+)  YellOw,  Reach, ChoJJa, Kingdom, StorkDominance Level 1: (3+ finals within a year, winning 2+) Nal_rA, July, Bisu, Jaedong Dominance Level 2: (4+ finals within a year, winning 3+)  BoxeR, NaDa, iloveoov, sAviOr Dominance Level 3: (6+ finals within a year, winning 4+) FlashJust gonna post this in every thread about dominance.
The tragedy in all of this though is that sAviOr doesn't TPLD-ize correctly anymore 
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On January 15 2011 02:10 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2011 01:37 dangots0ul wrote:
16-3 vs protoss over that period of time LOL........ Roughly the same win-rate as Flash had during 2010 vs Protoss (with around 50 games played). 
32-11 for oov 2003-2004
39-8 for Flash 2010
If you go by stats only, then yes Flash was more dominant. However no one would value his dominance higher than oov's. So it depends on how you look at it.
Flash had his majority of wins vs players like Pure, Kal and free. Basically bygoners. A few wins vs Stork who was invisible all 2010. A couple of wins vs Bisu and 50% vs BeSt who are great at PvT, that's a feat. Rest vs lesser known players.
Then you have oov that played vs players like Reach, Nal_rA, Kingdom, Grrr, RainBOw and Zeus.
Personally, I think the value of the dominance in question should be accounted for. And Flash has nothing to say in that respect. If he did dominate like this in 2007-2008 or so, I would agree he's the most dominant player of all time. But 2009-2010 was the period where BW started to decline and there's just not that seriousness in the progaming scene anymore after all the turn of bad events.
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On January 15 2011 02:57 Freezard wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2011 02:10 Holgerius wrote:On January 15 2011 01:37 dangots0ul wrote:
16-3 vs protoss over that period of time LOL........ Roughly the same win-rate as Flash had during 2010 vs Protoss (with around 50 games played). 32-11 for oov 2003-2004 39-8 for Flash 2010 If you go by stats only, then yes Flash was more dominant. However no one would value his dominance higher than oov's.
Lol! A lot of people in this thread are doing that...
Personally, I think the value of the dominance in question should be accounted for. And Flash has nothing to say in that respect. If he did dominate like this in 2007-2008 or so, I would agree he's the most dominant player of all time. But 2009-2010 was the period where BW started to decline and there's just not that seriousness in the progaming scene anymore after all the turn of bad events.
You are obviously exaggerating, but this question is quite interesting though: I had a feeling Flash was that mega-dominant for two reasons. 1) He was playing absurdly well. 2) This patch of dominance came in a time when a "good protoss" was an oxymoron, so the scene really boiled down to terran vs zerg in a way... That is why I am so happy to see a protoss resurgence rencently.
Edit: but don't get me wrong, there probably was this knid of reasons behind the oov-dominance too. I'm too new to the scene to have seen him in his prime.
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Flash had Jaedong. He had to deal with the second most accomplished progamer ever who during 2010 had a higher win % and reached more finals than any other year previously in his career, and still he dominated the way he did.
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On January 14 2011 22:11 oBlade wrote:
Between the Trigem MSL and EVER 2004 OSL, iloveoov won a league every season. This is over a period of about 14 months. During this time, he appeared in four finals and got four golds. He never made two finals (I say two instead of both/dual because back then there were some GhemTV leagues and other stuff) in one season.
On the other hand, between EVER 2009 and Korean Air S2, over a period of 12 months (this is important because it was 3 seasons, shorter than iloveoov's 4 seasons), Flash appeared in six finals. He appeared in *all* finals. He made dual finals three seasons in a row. In that shorter time he matched iloveoov's achievement of 4 golds and on top of that got two silvers.
Iloveoovs best streak of wins: 29-3
Flash's best: 25-2 + a couple of 20-3 streaks.
You have nothing but Nostalgia to back you up.
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When you use a great name, you have to be careful because we associate a name like Reach with the best parts of his career. Yet Grr was surely not in his prime when iloveoov was in his. Don't overestimate the prestige we should award victories over ostensibly big names. Then don't compare the best victories of oov with the apparently walkover victories of Flash. We're also talking about dragons, Jaedong, S-class terrans. And we're also talking about JJu, TheWind, Side, BlacK, Silver, and other victims of oov's.
Suggesting oov had harder opponents suggests something about the distribution of progaming skill changing between then and now.
Last, I'd suggest that a factor in why you dismiss players like Kal and free (*dragons* from that age ffs, and the Kal games were not simply walkovers) is actually that Flash is so good that in your mind you marginalize other players. Players who spend huge amounts of time practicing and have respectable records. The reason we might do this is because Flash's career is still in progress, so instead of saying that he made them look bad, we actually think they're strictly bad.
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Maybe I just think NaDa still has the record but Oov just didnt outplay Nada or Jaedong and i guess flash who are still catching up
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On January 15 2011 03:12 StylishVODs wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 22:11 oBlade wrote:
Between the Trigem MSL and EVER 2004 OSL, iloveoov won a league every season. This is over a period of about 14 months. During this time, he appeared in four finals and got four golds. He never made two finals (I say two instead of both/dual because back then there were some GhemTV leagues and other stuff) in one season.
On the other hand, between EVER 2009 and Korean Air S2, over a period of 12 months (this is important because it was 3 seasons, shorter than iloveoov's 4 seasons), Flash appeared in six finals. He appeared in *all* finals. He made dual finals three seasons in a row. In that shorter time he matched iloveoov's achievement of 4 golds and on top of that got two silvers.
Iloveoovs best streak of wins: 29-3 Flash's best: 25-2 + a couple of 20-3 streaks. You have nothing but Nostalgia to back you up.
This!
Also somehow people keep trying to ignore the fact that Flash DOMINATED Proleague as well.
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On January 15 2011 02:10 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2011 01:37 dangots0ul wrote:
16-3 vs protoss over that period of time LOL........ Roughly the same win-rate as Flash had during 2010 vs Protoss (with around 50 games played).
holy shit.....
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Pretty interesting compilation. ^__^
Man, I pressed highlight on Jaedong's name, and it's fucking amazing. If it wasn't for Flash finally reaching his full potential JD would've totally been the greatest player of all time. O_O
Well, I just did the same with Nada, and that was disgusting as well. 
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Where is Nada>Savior ? ;O
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On January 15 2011 06:25 StylishVODs wrote:
Where is Nada>Savior ? ;O
It was a special event IIRC.
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On January 15 2011 06:25 StylishVODs wrote:
Where is Nada>Savior ? ;O
That happened in OGN Masters.
I'd like to comment that a lot of this is very silly. One of the problems with trying to compare players over different eras is that this game has changed tremendously. When I talk to people who didn't start playing until recently, they just don't have a fucking clue. Not. A. Single. Fucking. Clue. The very way that you think about this game is soooooooooo different it's not funny at all.
So when you compare players over different eras, you have to realize that you aren't comparing the same skills. You are comparing a very, very different skill set.
When you go back in time to Boxer, you're talking about an era where strategic ability mattered a whole hell of a lot more than it does today. Hence why Garimto commented in his blog during the SC2 Beta that SC2 is a harder game.
Furthermore, we talk about "the skill gap" all the time and how it's "closing," always closing. But if you compare win percentages of top players today to top players from a decade ago, the difference is incomparable -- today's top players consistently have higher win percentages. I'm not just talking about Flash or Jaedong. It's true pretty much across the board. Top 10. Top 20. Doesn't matter. Part of it is changes in league format. Part of it is how the metagame has evolved.
I commented that strategic skill is of less importance today than in the past. But metagame understanding is more important than ever before. A small change in build order. A small change in timing. Yet another subtle variation on a strategy that has been in use for years. These are the differences between winners and losers.
I could go on. And on. And on. Starcraft is a completely different game than it was ten years ago and anybody who says otherwise does. not. have. a. fucking. clue. at. all.
Trying to compare bonjwas like this is pretty fucking stupid.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
the time when oov played saw the greatest change/progress in playing style in history. at the start of oov's run, people were doing one base strats and had no recognizable concept of economic play. but oov largely showed that winning through map control and econ is the most effective and stable way to go. even if other players like nada had mechanical and micro advantages, they couldn't overcome smart, macro level strategy.
flash is really good at the mature phase of the game obviously and he is a much better player. however, he didn't contribute to the maturing of the game in the way that oov did. when oov was dominating at the beginning of his run, people were forced to rethink how to play the game, and one result of that rethinking is that oov wasn't going to continue his dominance. however, that he did have this tremendous impact on the way the game is played cannot be ignored.
in fact, the proper way of appreciating flash's games is through the lens of oov. you get to see what oov looks like with much better mechanics and micro.
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Indeed. I think Oov is perhaps the most important SC player in history in terms of how the game is played, but that is a different discussion.
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Both Flash and oov are pretty great terrans. oov might have more of a metagame edge then flash, but they both own.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
well, it's as much a part of dominance as small sample league performances. for a wide and subjective concept like dominance, a plurality of interpretation can be valuable.
it's always the case that oov can be beaten at his peak, because he was not a product of the modern mechanical training camp of professional starcraft, in which prospective stars are first identified by mechanical aptitude. oov did not dominate because he had gifted mechanics, and he could be beaten if he didn't have a strategic edge on a game. dropping games here and there was expected for a player like this. however, that oov's strategies were much superior is not obscured by small sample losses. the careful analysis would still recognize dominance in oov's run despite his early tournament results, because the win ratio over a large sample is more meaningful.
these two players are both amazing in their own way. oov was remarkable for his revolutionary understanding of the game, while flash is an amazing individual talent who works within the mature framework of the game and find almost perfect gameplans against the best competition in history. flash's mechanics and micro can indeed be matched by many progamers. jaedong is in some way superior to flash in this regard. however, flash's genius is putting his mechanical resources, so to speak, to the effective task of defense. this is precisely the oov idea. getting an econ advantage is the best way of using your attention/apm, whether it is prioritizing macro over micro, or using micro in order to do more econ builds rather than trying cute early rushes. if flash changed his playing style to match bisu or aggressive jaedong, then he would not have his present success.
that flash is the better player by absolute skill level does not diminish oov. however, recognizing oov as more influential and differentiated from his peers doesn't diminish flash either. you can think of oov as the guy with the theoretical breakthrough, while flash is the one putting theory into practical implementation with his natural gifts.
of course, this matter would be much easier if flash was sensible enough to play on t1. but hey, even flash makes mistakes.
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On January 15 2011 03:13 oBlade wrote:
When you use a great name, you have to be careful because we associate a name like Reach with the best parts of his career. Yet Grr was surely not in his prime when iloveoov was in his. Don't overestimate the prestige we should award victories over ostensibly big names. Then don't compare the best victories of oov with the apparently walkover victories of Flash. We're also talking about dragons, Jaedong, S-class terrans. And we're also talking about JJu, TheWind, Side, BlacK, Silver, and other victims of oov's.
Suggesting oov had harder opponents suggests something about the distribution of progaming skill changing between then and now.
Last, I'd suggest that a factor in why you dismiss players like Kal and free (*dragons* from that age ffs, and the Kal games were not simply walkovers) is actually that Flash is so good that in your mind you marginalize other players. Players who spend huge amounts of time practicing and have respectable records. The reason we might do this is because Flash's career is still in progress, so instead of saying that he made them look bad, we actually think they're strictly bad.
Read up on the history of BW then. Reach, Kingdom, Nal_rA and Zeus were all doing great in tournaments and reached finals left and right both before and after oov won his golds. Protoss was dominating the scene. And trust me I've seen Kal/free since they started playing and I know they are not doing nearly as good now as they did in their peak a few years ago. Not that I know why I'm even arguing about comparing these players to the ones oov played, it's not like Kal/free/Pure won anything.
I'm talking strictly TvP btw, because someone else brought up the matchup records.
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EPT
