I've been watching a lot of Brood War lately, and it has occured to me that oov's stretch of play in '03 - '04, was pretty unbelievable:
- Had a stretch from 2003.10.23 to 2004.02.03, in which he went 33–3 (according to TLPD). This is the best streak by a player of all time.
- Has the longest TvZ winning streak: 25 wins from 2003.11.08 to 2004.07.01 according to YGosu.Com (26 wins from 2003.10.25 to 2004.07.01 according to TLPD, but TLPD is incomplete)
- Oov won all 5 major finals he has been to.
More or less, in a fairly short time window, he won as many titles as just about any other player. For whatever reason (could someone perhaps elaborate on this), be it health or desire, he was not able to sustain his amazing success as long as some other progamers have. Crisium's great topic, seen here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=164280 further exemplifies oov's dominance.
Finally, a list of the most Ro16 appearances in the OSL. This shows the long term success of many players, even if they never graced the top 4 very often.
Notice how oov is right up there with the greatest players ever in terms of titles, yet accomplished this in a much shorter period of time. To summarize, it seems to me that oov is definitely the most dominant player of all time. What he accomplished during his prime is unmatched by any other player. I don't think its unreasonable to consider oov the greatest of all time either.
Of course, there is only one player who I think could legitimately challenge oov for this...:
iloveoov ultimately took the H.O.T-Forever route of team welfare > selfish individual attempts at stardom. Also, he got married. But I'd agree with Holgerius, how can you look at sAviOr's measly run and ignore Flash? A whole host of Zergs were ZvP gods.
On January 13 2011 23:19 elf_01 wrote: Read Plexa's Final Edits (I Loved Victory, Parts 1 and 2) on oov. It more or less sums up his entire career/dominance and its an amazing read.
Forget Plexa's articles: this article (which btw is what brought Ver to public notice) is the best article on iloveoov out there, hands down.
To me Flash's dominance this year was more impressive than Oov...everyone seems better than they were back then, so it's even harder to pull off something like that.
dominance wise is always a controversial topic, if we stretch the period to around 6 months or so, a few more would pop out, like jaedong, around 8 months would probably a very one-sided victory for savior as the contender, while around a year could be flash. the 33-3 statistic you pulled out of oov's was over around 4 months, its always hard to measure.
JD is the second most accomplished player of all time (2 others have as many titles, but he has more silvers than both of them) and he had a magnificent year himself reaching 4/6 finals, and still Flash dominanted the way he did last year. THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is why Flash's 2010 is truly the winner when it comes to domination.
On January 13 2011 23:49 integral wrote: Sounds like someone didn't see flash play the entire year before he joined TL.
Well even his current PL run is still incredible (23-2 or something very close ^_^ ).
The only mistake Flash made is to let EffOrt catch up on him and win the Korean Air OSL Season 1 while he was up 2-0. Oov would never had let this happen.
This makes me want even more for Stork to win both individual leagues this season. I mean he is fucking tied on first place with Lim yo Hwan with 13 appearances in Ro16 and no win for him ;( Iloveoov changed the meaning of term macro mechanics, yeah he was great. I don't really remember how dominant he was, but the percentage speaks for itself. You can't really compare Flash to Iloveoov, it's like apples and pears.
ive started seriously playing starcraft in late 2007, but i knew the game since ive watched proscene since 2001 and occasionally played the game every now and then
to me the most dominant player relative to other players of their time is Flash
i mean in terms of statistics flash and iloveoov are probably close but like the way you feel about a player, like this "wow this guy just doesn't lose" kind of feeling, flash is king
1 big difference between iloveoov and flash from my perspective is that iloveoov just mass up units and crush opponents, but flash wins impossible games. iloveoov felt very powerful and strong but flash feels like he is a perfect player.
also in terms of greatness, we learned from iloveoov, improved from his gameplay, and starcraft today is much much more complicated than iloveoov's time. and also much more difficult. if there was a time machine and i could go back to his time, i could probably win OSL/MSL like 5 tiems in a row. it is ridiculously remarkable how flash is so dominant when starcraft gameplay has almost reached theoretically perfect.
in terms of dominance.. or the "aura", i would rank 1. flash 2. oov 3. savior (if you watched bw in 2005~2006.. you would know) 4. jaedong
flash's dominance is also accomplished at a higher absolute skill level. although arguably it is oov who brought sc into the era of macro and econ centered strategies. savior's role in that revolution cannot be ignored either
Is there some place to see all of Flash's games this year? I am not that into BW even though I want to be. For some reason I really like seeing Flash play, though.
On January 13 2011 23:49 integral wrote: Sounds like someone didn't see flash play the entire year before he joined TL.
Well even his current PL run is still incredible (23-2 or something very close ^_^ ).
The only mistake Flash made is to let EffOrt catch up on him and win the Korean Air OSL Season 1 while he was up 2-0. Oov would never had let this happen.
I don't follow. The line between who won and who could have won in every finals is very thin, and the sample is so small that it's basically useless. iloveoov could have lost to Boxer in the 5th set, he could have lost to YellOw on U-Boat and been reverse swept 3-2. It's extremely impressive to 3-0 a bunch of opponents in finals, but it's not necessary for the dominance. There are so many different numbers that point to Flash. He has as many finals wins as oov, so it should be a point for him that he's made it to 2 more finals than oov. Not a point against him that basically the spiritual heir to GGPlay suddenly crash landed in Seoul in a UFO, beat him in a finals, and retired.
I agree Flash alst year made him the most dominant in a year. But I think savior had a very dominant year too. And how come Oov isnt listed in Ro16 appearances.
On January 14 2011 00:40 BisuDagger wrote: I agree Flash alst year made him the most dominant in a year. But I think savior had a very dominant year too. And how come Oov isnt listed in Ro16 appearances.
He is.
That he won alot of Starleagues without high Ro16 appearances only shows how dominant he was, but also that his dominance was short lived.
On January 13 2011 23:49 integral wrote: Sounds like someone didn't see flash play the entire year before he joined TL.
Well even his current PL run is still incredible (23-2 or something very close ^_^ ).
The only mistake Flash made is to let EffOrt catch up on him and win the Korean Air OSL Season 1 while he was up 2-0. Oov would never had let this happen.
I don't follow. The line between who won and who could have won in every finals is very thin, and the sample is so small that it's basically useless. iloveoov could have lost to Boxer in the 5th set, he could have lost to YellOw on U-Boat and been reverse swept 3-2. It's extremely impressive to 3-0 a bunch of opponents in finals, but it's not necessary for the dominance. There are so many different numbers that point to Flash. He has as many finals wins as oov, so it should be a point for him that he's made it to 2 more finals than oov. Not a point against him that basically the spiritual heir to GGPlay suddenly crash landed in Seoul in a UFO, beat him in a finals, and retired.
Well we're talking about dominance, and for me a player is really dominating when no one else can 3-0 him. The fact that EffOrt did 3-0 him -- especially with the mental disadvantage of being down 0-2 -- is indeed a point against Flash's dominance at the period of this final.
And I do think that Flash is the most dominant player of all time, it's just that letting EffOrt coming back 3-2 after leading 2-0 is definitely showing that Flash was not that dominating at this moment. He took basically as many losses in 1 hour as Oov took during the many months his streak lasted.
I think oov has had (still has imo) the most influence in modern terran broodwar. When you see Fanta play, you can mostly tell oovs builds / influence.
It's like oov is the pupeteer of fantasy sometimes lol. Combined his past with his influence now as coach, imo oov still is pretty dominant in bw, despite not playing anymore lol.
On January 14 2011 00:24 Aldehyde wrote: Is there some place to see all of Flash's games this year? I am not that into BW even though I want to be. For some reason I really like seeing Flash play, though.
On January 13 2011 23:49 integral wrote: Sounds like someone didn't see flash play the entire year before he joined TL.
Well even his current PL run is still incredible (23-2 or something very close ^_^ ).
The only mistake Flash made is to let EffOrt catch up on him and win the Korean Air OSL Season 1 while he was up 2-0. Oov would never had let this happen.
I don't follow. The line between who won and who could have won in every finals is very thin, and the sample is so small that it's basically useless. iloveoov could have lost to Boxer in the 5th set, he could have lost to YellOw on U-Boat and been reverse swept 3-2. It's extremely impressive to 3-0 a bunch of opponents in finals, but it's not necessary for the dominance. There are so many different numbers that point to Flash. He has as many finals wins as oov, so it should be a point for him that he's made it to 2 more finals than oov. Not a point against him that basically the spiritual heir to GGPlay suddenly crash landed in Seoul in a UFO, beat him in a finals, and retired.
Well we're talking about dominance, and for me a player is really dominating when no one else can 3-0 him. The fact that EffOrt did 3-0 him -- especially with the mental disadvantage of being down 0-2 -- is indeed a point against Flash's dominance at the period of this final.
And I do think that Flash is the most dominant player of all time, it's just that letting EffOrt coming back 3-2 after leading 2-0 is definitely showing that Flash was not that dominating at this moment. He took basically as many losses in 1 hour as Oov took during the many months his streak lasted.
Effort > Flash is a non factor/exception mostly because Effort practiced pretty hardcore with Flash over that time because Flash needed to beat Jaedong. Effort had a much deeper understanding of how Flash plays than any other player and was able to out play him via that.
oov is pretty much still influencing bw through fantasy, so you can't count him out right now.
i hate to admit but flash probably has the longest dominance in bw during late 2009-2010 where he just looked totally unstoppable while jaedong in 2009 would lose to random scrubs here and there even though he was pretty beastly in a BO5.
im not sure how bw will move on from now on, jaedong seems to be more and more inconsistent lately while flash is slowing regaining composure, while stork just seems to be more and more godly.
I think the only thing that seperates oov from FlasH is their aura of dominance. FlasH seemed to have dominated in situations where no one else would've. Oov was just a crazy good player but there were very little contenders at his time in comparison to FlasH's reign. I could be wrong, I wasn't really familiar to oOv's time but I think FlasH's dominance just seems way more awe-inspiring than Oov's
On January 13 2011 23:49 integral wrote: Sounds like someone didn't see flash play the entire year before he joined TL.
Well even his current PL run is still incredible (23-2 or something very close ^_^ ).
The only mistake Flash made is to let EffOrt catch up on him and win the Korean Air OSL Season 1 while he was up 2-0. Oov would never had let this happen.
I don't follow. The line between who won and who could have won in every finals is very thin, and the sample is so small that it's basically useless. iloveoov could have lost to Boxer in the 5th set, he could have lost to YellOw on U-Boat and been reverse swept 3-2. It's extremely impressive to 3-0 a bunch of opponents in finals, but it's not necessary for the dominance. There are so many different numbers that point to Flash. He has as many finals wins as oov, so it should be a point for him that he's made it to 2 more finals than oov. Not a point against him that basically the spiritual heir to GGPlay suddenly crash landed in Seoul in a UFO, beat him in a finals, and retired.
Well we're talking about dominance, and for me a player is really dominating when no one else can 3-0 him. The fact that EffOrt did 3-0 him -- especially with the mental disadvantage of being down 0-2 -- is indeed a point against Flash's dominance at the period of this final.
And I do think that Flash is the most dominant player of all time, it's just that letting EffOrt coming back 3-2 after leading 2-0 is definitely showing that Flash was not that dominating at this moment. He took basically as many losses in 1 hour as Oov took during the many months his streak lasted.
Oov also lost a Bo5 vs a certain Zerg at the height of his dominance.
It's true that he had as many losses in that day as oov had over four months, but it may be apples and oranges. Flash had his own great streak at the beginning of 2010 and you can count it a number of different ways but basically up until shortly before the Effort finals, he had gone 48-7 in about four months. He has had multiple terrifying streaks in PL and in specific matchups. He has perhaps more losses numerically than iloveoov, but he's dual leaguing all the time and the competition in an individual league is less forgiving than PL.
oov has lost three games in a row also, on multiple occasions. It doesn't invalidate his streak, nor does the Effort finals smear Flash's streaks.
We've talked about his streak before in other threads and it was pointed out that other people (I think chiefly GoRush, and I think by me) had comparable periods, but perhaps against worse competition.
Hmm guys, I do believe that Flash is the most dominant player ever. It's just that someone above me started to compare Flash and Oov -- which is totally normal since OP doesn't seem to know much about Flash. What I meant by using the results of the Korean Air S1 finals, is that the period where Flash dominated the most was actually the post KAS1 period, where he won the three next starleagues in a row, as well as the PL playoffs. He indeed never dropped more than 3 games in a row ever since.
Ok, I just checked TLPD after writing the first paragraph and I admit he went 48-7 (~87% winrate) during the two months preceding the KAS1 finals. Damn you Flash you gosu bastard :> Or I'd rather say damn you EffOrt you gosu alien leaving earth after your OSL victory :|
Thanks for reminding me how good Flash was (is) keke
I don't think you can really compare Flash's dominance and Oov's dominance, the time periods are just too different. I think you can safely say that the two of them were the most dominant ever but I feel any attempts at statistical or anecdotal comparison between the two will fall flat.
he's been in the top 30 kespa for months holds the most starleague wins more osl/msl ro16 appearances 439-290(60%.22) record according to tlpd compared to 288-144 (61.29%) of oov. i believe the more wins, the more dominance.
That's consistency, and that's something YellOw also excelled at. But it isn't dominance. You even use career stats. How can Nada's career record, which spans almost all of SC's life also, say anything about how he dominated?
On January 14 2011 02:03 oBlade wrote: That's consistency, and that's something YellOw also excelled at. But it isn't dominance. You even use career stats. How can Nada's career record, which spans almost all of SC's life also, say anything about how he dominated?
how can you be dominant if you are not consistent in winning? and also the OP stated that OOV is the most dominant of ALL TIME, not specifying any time range so im using career stats.
I've aways felt that Dominance later in the game, when more people have played the game and the game has evolved more is more impressive than at the earlier stages.
As an example, someone might dominate the SC2 scene right now, NesTea or whoever, but it won't be as impressive as someone dominating the SC1 scene because the game hasn't evolved so far yet so dominance is much easier to achieve.
A big part of reason why old school fans consider iloveoov's run the most dominant of all time is content of his games and the quality of his opposition. He beat a lot of very good players, and he made them look seriously bad.
On January 14 2011 02:11 Waxangel wrote: A big part of reason why old school fans consider iloveoov's run the most dominant of all time is content of his games and the quality of his opposition. He beat a lot of very good players, and he made them look seriously bad.
Well, Flash, too, beat an astounding number of great players. Remember how he 3-0'ed Stork? He made Jaedong look really bad in couple finals, even though the latter was significantly better than other players at that time.
On January 14 2011 02:06 icystorage wrote: how can you be dominant if you are not consistent in winning? and also the OP stated that OOV is the most dominant of ALL TIME, not specifying any time range so im using career stats.
That's not what I said. But using the obvious example I gave, although YellOw was consistent, he wasn't dominant. Dominance doesn't necessarily follow from consistency.
I can't think of a player who didn't display consistency but who did dominate (I'm trying because I think it would be interesting), but it would have to be someone like Silver who just rolled his best matchups all the time. Perhaps Hwasin or Mind.
I think by most dominant of all time, OP meant that oov's dominance was so powerful during his prime that it exceeds anything anyone else achieved during their prime.
On January 13 2011 23:19 elf_01 wrote: Read Plexa's Final Edits (I Loved Victory, Parts 1 and 2) on oov. It more or less sums up his entire career/dominance and its an amazing read.
will do, thank you!
On January 13 2011 23:23 oBlade wrote: iloveoov ultimately took the H.O.T-Forever route of team welfare > selfish individual attempts at stardom.
On January 13 2011 23:19 elf_01 wrote: Read Plexa's Final Edits (I Loved Victory, Parts 1 and 2) on oov. It more or less sums up his entire career/dominance and its an amazing read.
Forget Plexa's articles: this article (which btw is what brought Ver to public notice) is the best article on iloveoov out there, hands down.
thank you!
On January 13 2011 23:49 integral wrote: Sounds like someone didn't see flash play the entire year before he joined TL.
yes, i originally came here for sc2 (yuck)...but then I discovered BW
I do think Flash will go down as the greatest of all time...although I wish I could have been around for effOrt coming back against him. Thats definitely a chink in his armor.
Oov is still the most dominant of all time though...he accomplished more than any other player during his prime. You can knock his competition, but its not like he was beating randoms in finals.
On January 13 2011 23:49 integral wrote: Sounds like someone didn't see flash play the entire year before he joined TL.
Well even his current PL run is still incredible (23-2 or something very close ^_^ ).
The only mistake Flash made is to let EffOrt catch up on him and win the Korean Air OSL Season 1 while he was up 2-0. Oov would never had let this happen.
I don't follow. The line between who won and who could have won in every finals is very thin, and the sample is so small that it's basically useless. iloveoov could have lost to Boxer in the 5th set, he could have lost to YellOw on U-Boat and been reverse swept 3-2. It's extremely impressive to 3-0 a bunch of opponents in finals, but it's not necessary for the dominance. There are so many different numbers that point to Flash. He has as many finals wins as oov, so it should be a point for him that he's made it to 2 more finals than oov.
Are you trying to say luck and chance has more to do with winning than skill and ability? At the end of the day, we can say whatever we want, but 5-0 is still 5-0, and he won his titles faster than any other player.
On January 14 2011 01:54 revy wrote: I don't think you can really compare Flash's dominance and Oov's dominance, the time periods are just too different. I think you can safely say that the two of them were the most dominant ever but I feel any attempts at statistical or anecdotal comparison between the two will fall flat.
I think oov when he was on his rampage was definitely the most dominant winstreak of all time. If we define dominance as the superiority of one player over another, it is simply incomparable to contrast his victories to Flash's; Flash's is certainly more impressive because the quality of his opponents were much higher, being more modern playstyles (and he had an appropriate rival whose skill was also much above the majority of his opponents) but Oov's victories were the most ridiculous stomps you would ever see because his game sense and macro were just unmatched at the time.
note: this is v nada, a top player, very excellent player at the time
and to people bringing out flash's PL stats, look at what oov did for 4u; considering the smaller format of PL, he probably matched or beat flash's w/l ratio at the time
On January 13 2011 23:18 Holgerius wrote: I think Flash's 2010 is more ridculous.
yeah, being so dominant in 2010 is way harder than back in 2003 nowadays alot of new and strong players emerge, and Flash somehow manages to bash them all and stay there.
On January 14 2011 02:11 Waxangel wrote: A big part of reason why old school fans consider iloveoov's run the most dominant of all time is content of his games and the quality of his opposition. He beat a lot of very good players, and he made them look seriously bad.
If you ignore players like Movie, I could see the argument going the other way. After all, Flash dominate Jaedong, arguably the best or second best player to ever play starcraft broodwar. The quality of flash's opponents i'd say were pretty damned good.
I think it's really too hard to say which run is better.
iloveoov was terran, which is imba pretty clearly the dominant race in the game. it's also rare to see a terran map being unfavorable in both TvZ and TvP.
some other zerg played on shit maps -- maps made specifically to bring him down -- and was more dominant at ZvP than oov was at TvZ.
On January 14 2011 03:05 doothegee wrote: iloveoov was terran, which is imba pretty clearly the dominant race in the game. it's also rare to see a terran map being unfavorable in both TvZ and TvP.
some other zerg played on shit maps -- maps made specifically to bring him down -- and was more dominant at ZvP than oov was at TvZ.
- from an ex-CJ fanboy
i'd love for someone to make a case for savior....
On January 14 2011 02:43 Navi wrote: and to people bringing out flash's PL stats, look at what oov did for 4u; considering the smaller format of PL, he probably matched or beat flash's w/l ratio at the time
From Ver's article:
However, iloveoov was not just a Nada, who dominated single leagues but didn't hold his massive weight in teamleagues. Back when all kill leagues were around, iloveoov was the only ingredient needed. With a 13-2 record overall in the MBCGAME teamleague and putting up performances like this, It's not exactly hard to see how 4U won despite having a lineup similar to KTF last season.
Loser's bracket finals 4U vs GO
1: Xellos(GO) defeated Kos(4U) on Enter the Dragon 2: Xellos(GO) defeated IntoTheRainbow(4U) on Detonation_Xnote 3: ILoveoov(4U) defeated Xellos(GO) on JR's Memory 4: ILoveoov(4U) defeated ForU(GO) on Parallellines 5: ILoveoov(4U) defeated Nal_rA(GO) on Enter the Dragon 6: ILoveoov(4U) defeated Eros~Rage(GO) on Detonation_Xnote 4Union 4 : 2 GO
Well when i first initally read the thread from first post to last i was thinking, ye oov is a absolute monster probly the most dominant then i just thought about flash and the QUALITY of players these days, They were just as good back then but not refined or anything close to how they play today
So i think for sure Flash is the most dominant, i mean everytime i hear the name flash i think unbeatable cyborg that really needs to fucking stop playing so good? YOU JOKING KID?? 15 WINNING UR FIRST STARLEAGUE ? ok kid go to bed your grounded!!
Sorry about the last part i just get angryz when i think how good flash is
No he isn't. iloveoov did not even get into dual finals once. For every final that iloveoov played he had already dropped out in the opposing league. Nada made dual finals and won. Flash made dual finals and won. It's not impossible, Nada and Flash proved it. So why couldn't iloveoov do it?
On January 14 2011 03:47 J1.au wrote: No he isn't. iloveoov did not even get into dual finals once. For every final that iloveoov played he had already dropped out in the opposing league. Nada made dual finals and won. Flash made dual finals and won. It's not impossible, Nada and Flash proved it. So why couldn't iloveoov do it?
Well, that's going a bit too far I think. People look at the whole domination process from their corner and take different things into consideration. For some folks being consistent is being dominant, for some people it's the most league wins for others is something else. I actually don't think we could tell who's more dominant, because they haven't really played a long side one another. It's all kind of subjective.
On January 14 2011 04:40 mmdmmd wrote: We will never know how dominant sAviOr really is. He began to throw matches away at his peak.
No. Savior only started his match-fixing at around late 2009, at which point he sucked anyway. Besides, he himself wasn't involved in too many fixed matches himself (hitting his own mutas vs hyvaa aside), he was mainly a broker for other players like Hwasin, etc. Not saying that his actions were any less wrong, but still.
On January 14 2011 03:05 doothegee wrote: iloveoov was terran, which is imba pretty clearly the dominant race in the game. it's also rare to see a terran map being unfavorable in both TvZ and TvP.
some other zerg played on shit maps -- maps made specifically to bring him down -- and was more dominant at ZvP than oov was at TvZ.
- from an ex-CJ fanboy
thank you. this is exactly what i was thinking.
fixed.
this applies perfectly to Flash / Jaedong comparison too.
On January 14 2011 02:11 Waxangel wrote: A big part of reason why old school fans consider iloveoov's run the most dominant of all time is content of his games and the quality of his opposition. He beat a lot of very good players, and he made them look seriously bad.
It should also be said that his games were some of the most boring of all time, his playstyle made him look dominant simply because most people weren't able to watch his games and stay awake, which led people to just watch his stats after the games. -.-
I love these well-written articles about the rich BW history. I have never touched BW but for some reason I appreciate the BW pros so much more their sc2 counterparts. I hope the sc2 scene grows into something where history is made and stories are told.
On January 14 2011 02:11 Waxangel wrote: A big part of reason why old school fans consider iloveoov's run the most dominant of all time is content of his games and the quality of his opposition. He beat a lot of very good players, and he made them look seriously bad.
Well, Flash, too, beat an astounding number of great players. Remember how he 3-0'ed Stork? He made Jaedong look really bad in couple finals, even though the latter was significantly better than other players at that time.
Yeah but you could find people who would give Flash a run for his money. EffOrt ZvT, Jaedong ZvT, Fantasy/sKyHigh TvT, etc.
I remember reading the livereport threads/chatting on irc during oov's peak and we would laugh at how one sided some games where against very good players. You can post impressive numbers, but dominance isn't just about results, is how he achieved those results. I remember oov was for example amazing against cheese cause a lot of players would try ridiculous type of cheese against him to stop him going into macro mode. And not just "bad" players.
On January 14 2011 02:11 Waxangel wrote: A big part of reason why old school fans consider iloveoov's run the most dominant of all time is content of his games and the quality of his opposition. He beat a lot of very good players, and he made them look seriously bad.
It should also be said that his games were some of the most boring of all time, his playstyle made him look dominant simply because most people weren't able to watch his games and stay awake, which led people to just watch his stats after the games. -.-
On January 14 2011 03:05 doothegee wrote: iloveoov was terran, which is imba pretty clearly the dominant race in the game. it's also rare to see a terran map being unfavorable in both TvZ and TvP.
some other zerg played on shit maps -- maps made specifically to bring him down -- and was more dominant at ZvP than oov was at TvZ.
- from an ex-CJ fanboy
thank you. this is exactly what i was thinking.
fixed.
this applies perfectly to Flash / Jaedong comparison too.
That's a really convenient way to argue, isn't it? ''Terran is imba!'', ''Maps are imba!''. I'm getting pretty sick of it. -__-
On January 14 2011 02:11 Waxangel wrote: A big part of reason why old school fans consider iloveoov's run the most dominant of all time is content of his games and the quality of his opposition. He beat a lot of very good players, and he made them look seriously bad.
This. Statistically he had the most dominant run pre flash I'm pretty sure, but he totally shit on a lot of the best players of the time. The games that stick out in my mind the most are mass ghost vs jju and the pure wraith vs goodfriend.
Iloveoov handled the game differently than the players in comparison here.
The complete dominance he had over his opponents was remarkable. No other player has been as succesful in completely immersing into the game, treating it almost like a mechanical extension of one's mind. Look at his games, he is in complete control if his flow doesn't get disturbed by early mechanics. His ability to keep the game intact, having all bases covered - to extinguish his opponents by depraving them of cost-effective choices yields an astonished gasp from an awed observer.
Other players handle this differently and have their own jaw-dropping qualities. But given the wording of the subject: yes. Dominant; Alpha Gorilla.
On January 13 2011 23:49 integral wrote: Sounds like someone didn't see flash play the entire year before he joined TL.
Well even his current PL run is still incredible (23-2 or something very close ^_^ ).
The only mistake Flash made is to let EffOrt catch up on him and win the Korean Air OSL Season 1 while he was up 2-0. Oov would never had let this happen.
I don't follow. The line between who won and who could have won in every finals is very thin, and the sample is so small that it's basically useless. iloveoov could have lost to Boxer in the 5th set, he could have lost to YellOw on U-Boat and been reverse swept 3-2. It's extremely impressive to 3-0 a bunch of opponents in finals, but it's not necessary for the dominance. There are so many different numbers that point to Flash. He has as many finals wins as oov, so it should be a point for him that he's made it to 2 more finals than oov.
Are you trying to say luck and chance has more to do with winning than skill and ability? At the end of the day, we can say whatever we want, but 5-0 is still 5-0, and he won his titles faster than any other player.
No. I mean that we ought never to ignore the fact that everybody happens to lose games. The results of one day's play shouldn't be weighted disproportionately.
Between Trigem MSL and EVER OSL, about a year, iloveoov earned 4 of his titles. He was at 4 finals total. In 2010, Flash was at six finals (Edit: to reiterate, he was at *all* finals). He earned 4 titles. It is not meaningful to say that Flash was less dominant because he lost to Effort when in fact he did more than iloveoov by this metric. iloveoov did win five titles, but he only made it to five finals. Flash has been to seven and he has just as many titles as iloveoov.
The fact that Flash isn't undefeated in finals is not a strike against him. He has 5 golds. iloveoov has 5 golds. It's not that Flash wasn't good enough to 7-0 his finals, so he's not as dominant as iloveoov. It's that iloveoov didn't make it to the 2 extra finals that Flash has so far.
Ill preference what I'm about to say by saying that oov is my favorite player of all time. (it was boxer, but then... you know....still like him, but...)
Flash is the best of all time, in a best of 15 (just going for a large sample size) Flash will beat any player in their prime. But the question was who was most dominant. Flash has played harder competition, and that is an argument that he is not the most dominant.
Dominance= skill of best - skill of second best
Boxer had yellow, and flash had jaedong. Jaedong fucks up flash in a bunch of comparisons. Flash had to do far more than savior or oov or boxer to become bonjwa, because bonjwa has to do with dominance, and not just results. Savior is probably second for most dominant, but he runs into the problem of less accomplished than oov, and if we line up the matchups, oov v z > savior v p, and saviors other mu's weren’t that impressive (comparatively obviously. They were damn good, but not exactly bonjwa level on their own). Nada's greatness was broken up into two parts, which detracts from the dominance.
Less seriously, look at the nick names. “the emperor” is a beacon for his people, a position of dignity and class. “genius terran” and “the maestro” focus on the beauty and artistry of their play. “ultimate weapon” is pretty dominant, but it still has the sense of “genius terran” as slightly artsy. But oov is the “Cheater terran” and “the bus driver”. He is so good that the game is not able to support his awesome skill. And as for “bus driver”… it’s a good story, and I don’t want to ruin it for someone by telling it wrong, but if that doesn’t scream “dominance,” I don’t know what does.
I almost feel that whenever we compare greats of the game, we need to create clearly defined categories to individually argue over. The "most dominant" is not necessarily "the greatest" or "the best" or "the most influential to the game" or "the most popular" or "most influential to strategy" or “most entertaining” or whatever adjectives you are thinking of right now.
Thank you very much for the ver article, I have a feeling I will thoroughly entertaining. I had read the I love victory one, and it is my second favorite one. (with top honors going to the yellow one. I’m patiently waiting for yellow to make a Ro36 or something to have an excuse to bump that amazing piece of work. I don’t even know if it is bumpable, but I’m gonna try… eventually)
IMO oov did more than Flash. while Flash was dominating there were many others who were as food as him, but for external reasons performed poorly, eg bad teams, WoW, etc. oov brought about better strategies that other pros couldn't keep up with, and had more reason to be impresses by.
On January 14 2011 03:47 J1.au wrote: No he isn't. iloveoov did not even get into dual finals once. For every final that iloveoov played he had already dropped out in the opposing league. Nada made dual finals and won. Flash made dual finals and won. It's not impossible, Nada and Flash proved it. So why couldn't iloveoov do it?
Savior didn't even make it into the OSL until Shinhan OSL Season 3, which officially began on December 20th, 2006. With the dominance he had in the MSL, you'd think he'd make it into the OSL a lot earlier than that.
As we all know, he fulfilled the royal road in that OSL and won. He was going for dual finals, but we all know what happened on that day of revolution (March 3).
I honestly can't believe people think oov was more dominant. ELO peak almost 75 higher than anyone ever, sustained ELO consistently above oov's peak (still is right now), dual finals three times in a row, and on and on. People saying that oov made good players look terrible is a joke, flash makes players twice as skilled as anyone oov ever played look like B-team scrubs. Flash has not only dominated the hardest anyone ever has, he's done it against by far the most skilled competition in the most difficult era of Brood War.
This isn't even a question, you have to use a pretty squirrely definition of dominance to come to any different conclusion. Oov never lost a finals, but he never had to prepare for more than one at a time because oov always lost in the earlier rounds of one tournament. More dominant than flash, get the fuck out of here.
On January 14 2011 06:12 integral wrote: I honestly can't believe people think oov was more dominant. ELO peak almost 75 higher than anyone ever, sustained ELO consistently above oov's peak (still is right now), dual finals three times in a row, and on and on. People saying that oov made good players look terrible is a joke, flash makes players twice as skilled as anyone oov ever played look like B-team scrubs. Flash has not only dominated the hardest anyone ever has, he's done it against by far the most skilled competition in the most difficult era of Brood War.
This isn't even a question, you have to use a pretty squirrely definition of dominance to come to any different conclusion. Oov never lost a finals, but he never had to prepare for more than one at a time because oov always lost in the earlier rounds of one tournament. More dominant than flash, get the fuck out of here.
Well look at it this way, who is flash's main competitor? Jaedong, obviously. As much as flash fans would not like to admit it, or point at his 3-1 finals record, he is still 20-19 vs jaedong
Who is/was oov's main competitor? Nada? July? There just wasn't anyone close to him in his prime. You would have to be delusional to say that Jaedong wasn't even close to Flash.
On January 14 2011 06:12 integral wrote: I honestly can't believe people think oov was more dominant. ELO peak almost 75 higher than anyone ever, sustained ELO consistently above oov's peak (still is right now), dual finals three times in a row, and on and on. People saying that oov made good players look terrible is a joke, flash makes players twice as skilled as anyone oov ever played look like B-team scrubs. Flash has not only dominated the hardest anyone ever has, he's done it against by far the most skilled competition in the most difficult era of Brood War.
This isn't even a question, you have to use a pretty squirrely definition of dominance to come to any different conclusion. Oov never lost a finals, but he never had to prepare for more than one at a time because oov always lost in the earlier rounds of one tournament. More dominant than flash, get the fuck out of here.
Well look at it this way, who is flash's main competitor? Jaedong, obviously. As much as flash fans would not like to admit it, or point at his 3-1 finals record, he is still 20-19 vs jaedong
Who is/was oov's main competitor? Nada? July? There just wasn't anyone close to him in his prime. You would have to be delusional to say that Jaedong wasn't even close to Flash.
This argument goes both ways - you can say something along the lines that "oov didn't really have anyone up to his level at his reign of play - he was just playing and evolving the game at the time, and set a new standard for high level play", while for flash you can argue "Flash, however, DID have a major competitor at his level, and Flash STILL managed to take down the second best player of all time 3 out of 4 times".
I think it really boils down to this - It's pretty much impossible to compare the dominant reigns of both players, as maps, styles of plays, overall skill level of play, quality of opponents differed so greatly that it null in voids the need for comparison. Rather, they should just both be appreciated for two of the greatest dominant reigns of all time.
On January 14 2011 06:12 integral wrote: I honestly can't believe people think oov was more dominant. ELO peak almost 75 higher than anyone ever, sustained ELO consistently above oov's peak (still is right now), dual finals three times in a row, and on and on. People saying that oov made good players look terrible is a joke, flash makes players twice as skilled as anyone oov ever played look like B-team scrubs. Flash has not only dominated the hardest anyone ever has, he's done it against by far the most skilled competition in the most difficult era of Brood War.
This isn't even a question, you have to use a pretty squirrely definition of dominance to come to any different conclusion. Oov never lost a finals, but he never had to prepare for more than one at a time because oov always lost in the earlier rounds of one tournament. More dominant than flash, get the fuck out of here.
Well look at it this way, who is flash's main competitor? Jaedong, obviously. As much as flash fans would not like to admit it, or point at his 3-1 finals record, he is still 20-19 vs jaedong
Who is/was oov's main competitor? Nada? July? There just wasn't anyone close to him in his prime. You would have to be delusional to say that Jaedong wasn't even close to Flash.
The difference is, the majority of Jaedong's wins over Flash came before Flash went into godmode last year. Taking the starting point of Flash's dominance as the 2009 Ever OSL, he is 14-8 vs Jaedong in standard leagues.
Similarly, if you look at iloveoov's records against all the top players for all time, it's not nearly as impressive. He's 13-12 vs July, 5-4 vs Boxer, 0-6 (!) vs Savior, 2-4 vs Anytime. He did dominate Nada with 16-6, Nal_rA 9-4, Kingdom 9-5, Reach 10-6 lifetime, but Flash has done the same to many more (and better) players. Flash is 13-5 vs Fantasy, 12-8 Bisu, 7-9 vs Stork. In fact, Stork and Skyhigh (a well-known TvT sniper) are the only two players that have an even or winning record against Flash in standard leagues. iloveoov on the other hand has even or losing records vs multiple players, including Flash himself.
On January 14 2011 07:29 Musou wrote: Similarly, if you look at iloveoov's records against all the top players for all time, it's not nearly as impressive. He's 13-12 vs July, 5-4 vs Boxer, 0-6 (!) vs Savior, 2-4 vs Anytime. He did dominate Nada with 16-6, Nal_rA 9-4, Kingdom 9-5, Reach 10-6 lifetime, but Flash has done the same to many more (and better) players. Flash is 13-5 vs Fantasy, 12-8 Bisu, 7-9 vs Stork. In fact, Stork and Skyhigh (a well-known TvT sniper) are the only two players that have an even or winning record against Flash in standard leagues. iloveoov on the other hand has even or losing records vs multiple players, including Flash himself.
Perhaps you haven't realized it but all of the players you listed as oov's opponents were starleague winners. Two of them golden mouse winners. Oov not only dominated, he dominated against the best players of all time, all S-class players. Perhaps he didn't have a huge winning streak against all of them, but he won when it mattered and that brought him his unmatched 5-0 finals and win streaks.
Flash dominated against mostly mediocre players, with only bisu and jaedong being anywhere near as good, and both of those dominated everyone else too at the time due to everyone else simply not being S-class. Flash fans are generally delusional to think that the current competition for Flash is anywhere near as good as oov's was. Who will remember Kal, Calm, Shine and so on, years from now? Unless they get their shit together, noone. Only bisu, JD and maybe stork stand out. That's three people you have to avoid to get your starleague win.
This is also why I think Nada's simultaneous starleague wins matter more than flash's. Actually nada won 3 starleagues at the same time, with the other league going broke later on. In any case, same deal as with oov, he did it against horrible odds.
The odds are actually more horrible for one player to dominate later in the game than it is to do the same thing earlier on though.
I still don't see how you can dismiss the fact that Flash made it to finals of both leagues while iloveoov didn't. If you're in both finals you have less chance to win any of them. Thats why so few have ever done it. Flash made dual finals three times in a row, iloveoov didn't even do it once.
Sometimes it feels like, if Flash takes a gold and a silver during one season it counts for less than one gold for iloveoov, and thats really wierd. You're basically saying that if Flash had lost earlier on in the one he got silver in he'd be more dominant.
Hey if Flash didn't get into two more finals, where he got silver, he'd have 100% winratio in finals aswell. Then he would truely have dominated! Makes no sense...
Flash in 2010 was in every final. Oov during his prime got to 50% of them.
Imagine a player coming out of nowhere right now, obliterating Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu all into a slump.
Because that's what iloveoov did, at a time where an eclectic school of half a dozen S-class players each with their style of their own were duking it out for supremacy. Back then, there were many more players performing at their "peak" because the game was less diluted to certain winning styles of play. The cheating gorilla style was the first "winning style of play," one that changed the landscape of BW.
This is not a way to prove a player is more dominant than the other. However, oov was the first that actually made people cry out for someone to dethrone him (which Savior did)
On January 14 2011 08:09 FireBlast! wrote: Imagine a player coming out of nowhere right now, obliterating Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu all into a slump.
If he could just get into 1 finals at a time he still wouldn't be as dominating as Flash's run. There wasn't a finals in 2010 where Flash wasn't the opponent. Thats how dominating he was.
This while he dominated the proleague. I don't see how oov can beat that...
On January 14 2011 01:11 Invictus wrote: oov is pretty much still influencing bw through fantasy, so you can't count him out right now.
i hate to admit but flash probably has the longest dominance in bw during late 2009-2010 where he just looked totally unstoppable while jaedong in 2009 would lose to random scrubs here and there even though he was pretty beastly in a BO5.
im not sure how bw will move on from now on, jaedong seems to be more and more inconsistent lately while flash is slowing regaining composure, while stork just seems to be more and more godly.
Lets hope for a protoss domination ^_^
I think its the nature of the race and the Terran matchups that allow them to be so consistent unlike Zerg/Protoss.
On January 14 2011 07:29 Musou wrote: Similarly, if you look at iloveoov's records against all the top players for all time, it's not nearly as impressive. He's 13-12 vs July, 5-4 vs Boxer, 0-6 (!) vs Savior, 2-4 vs Anytime. He did dominate Nada with 16-6, Nal_rA 9-4, Kingdom 9-5, Reach 10-6 lifetime, but Flash has done the same to many more (and better) players. Flash is 13-5 vs Fantasy, 12-8 Bisu, 7-9 vs Stork. In fact, Stork and Skyhigh (a well-known TvT sniper) are the only two players that have an even or winning record against Flash in standard leagues. iloveoov on the other hand has even or losing records vs multiple players, including Flash himself.
Perhaps you haven't realized it but all of the players you listed as oov's opponents were starleague winners. Two of them golden mouse winners. Oov not only dominated, he dominated against the best players of all time, all S-class players. Perhaps he didn't have a huge winning streak against all of them, but he won when it mattered and that brought him his unmatched 5-0 finals and win streaks.
Flash dominated against mostly mediocre players, with only bisu and jaedong being anywhere near as good, and both of those dominated everyone else too at the time due to everyone else simply not being S-class. Flash fans are generally delusional to think that the current competition for Flash is anywhere near as good as oov's was. Who will remember Kal, Calm, Shine and so on, years from now? Unless they get their shit together, noone. Only bisu, JD and maybe stork stand out. That's three people you have to avoid to get your starleague win.
This is also why I think Nada's simultaneous starleague wins matter more than flash's. Actually nada won 3 starleagues at the same time, with the other league going broke later on. In any case, same deal as with oov, he did it against horrible odds.
The entire reason Flash dominates against so-called "mediocre" players is precisely because he exists. The thing is, there are no other Starleague winners for Flash to dominate because Flash and Jaedong have won all of them since he appeared on the scene. I didn't even bother listing records for players who won a single OSL or MSL and then never won anything ever again such as Mind, forGG, Luxury, Calm, or GGPlay. (For the record, none of them have a winning ratio against Flash either.) It just shows exactly how dominant Flash is over everyone else. oov dominated some of the best players at the time, but he was crushed by Savior. Flash has beaten basically everyone that has come his way and he isn't just known for his macro. He's dominant in every aspect of every matchup, including cheese, all-ins, timing attacks, and management games. He makes impossible comebacks possible and wins on maps that every other terran loses. oov revolutionized the game by changing the focus from micro to macro, but Flash has revolutionized TvP from losing to carriers with the Flash 2-1 double armory mech build and popularized and perfected the biomech transition in TvZ. Flash is also known for being the best TvTer of all time, using the new TvT style which was revolutionized by Xellos (who completely crushed oov). If you want to read about that, go here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=97332
You are right in that people are delusional if they think the current competition for Flash is anywhere near as good as oov's because they aren't as good, they're better. Current players play more games than ever, and the top players maintain a higher win ratio in all matchups than any of oov's opponents ever did.
On January 14 2011 08:09 FireBlast! wrote: Imagine a player coming out of nowhere right now, obliterating Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu all into a slump.
If he could just get into 1 finals at a time he still wouldn't be as dominating as Flash's run. There wasn't a finals in 2010 where Flash wasn't the opponent. Thats how dominating he was.
This while he dominated the proleague. I don't see how oov can beat that...
The guy made people look BAD. Fuck, we're talking about a guy who used to be credited with the longest TvZ winstreak at 27 games. Opened his career with 27 TvZ victories. He pretty much shit on everyone in the day, and he made them look SILLY. Crushed Nada, the Terran genius of the day. This guy was undoubtedly the best player for a year, and he made everyone look really really bad.
If you had a finals between Oov and anyone else, I'd pick Oov simply cause that guy was a champ when it mattered. If you had a finals between Flash and anyone else, there are times where I'd actually pick other players. Like if Flash played Jaedong on better maps, I'd pick JD to win over Flash. But back in those days, there was absolutely 0 doubt in anyone's mind that iloveoov was going to win the finals once he got there. Because he was that good.
On January 14 2011 08:09 FireBlast! wrote: Imagine a player coming out of nowhere right now, obliterating Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu all into a slump.
If he could just get into 1 finals at a time he still wouldn't be as dominating as Flash's run. There wasn't a finals in 2010 where Flash wasn't the opponent. Thats how dominating he was.
This while he dominated the proleague. I don't see how oov can beat that...
The guy made people look BAD. Fuck, we're talking about a guy who used to be credited with the longest TvZ winstreak at 27 games. Opened his career with 27 TvZ victories. He pretty much shit on everyone in the day, and he made them look SILLY. Crushed Nada, the Terran genius of the day. This guy was undoubtedly the best player for a year, and he made everyone look really really bad.
If you had a finals between Oov and anyone else, I'd pick Oov simply cause that guy was a champ when it mattered. If you had a finals between Flash and anyone else, there are times where I'd actually pick other players. Like if Flash played Jaedong on better maps, I'd pick JD to win over Flash. But back in those days, there was absolutely 0 doubt in anyone's mind that iloveoov was going to win the finals once he got there. Because he was that good.
So, if he really was that dominating, why didn't he keep on reaching dual finals?
Absolutely no matter how you look at things, 1 Gold+1 Silver>>>1 Gold.
Let us not forget how much oov changed the game. If he had never played, you can be guranteed flash would not be as dominant as he is, because he would not have the strategies available to him that he does now.
Of course, flash is probably the most talented player to ever play this game etc etc.
The question for this debate is, would flash have dominated as he did if he played in oovs era and vice versa? Maybe less taletned oppenents, but also less strategies and builds.
No one ever will be as dominant as flash. It goes without argument. Flash has made best players look bad, not just beat them. If you talk about dominance you talk about flash. And this comes from an avid oov fanboy and flash hater.
Thx to the OP for the interesting infos! Maybe we can produce some more Statistics; we could even have some starcraft history written down complete with contemporary witnesses .
Regarding the discussion around Flash and oov:
Flash will have to Beat Jaedong, Stork and Bisu in three consecutive Bo7 with one hand tied to his back before the foreign community will accept him as the greatest and most dominant player starcraft has yet seen. Let me look up some statistics and produce some nice graphics with them, and I will come right back!
On January 14 2011 09:16 BGrael wrote: Flash will have to Beat Jaedong, Stork and Bisu in three consecutive Bo7 with one hand tied to his back before the foreign community will accept him as the greatest and most dominant player starcraft has yet seen. Let me look up some statistics and produce some nice graphics with them, and I will come right back here.
But thx to the OP for the nice Infos!
Just to be fair - this isn't about being a greater player or a better player, this is about being dominant. Oov had second best winning streak, yet it doesn't mean he was anywhere near the level of present days' competition. He might very well be #50 in all-time ranking in terms of skill.
every1 who emphasizes the "he won when it mattered the most"-mantra to argue oov´s superior degree of dominance is a hypocrite.
its a fact that oov won all his 5 titles in seasons in which he lost before the finals in the other starleague. by claiming that "he always won when it mattered the most", u are implicitly assuming that these other 5 starleagues he didnt have an impact in didnt matter at all. how can a player be "shitting on absolutely everyone" when he gets knocked out of the tournament before the finals, and sometimes doesnt even qualify, in 50% of all starleagues he enters?
also keep in mind how much of a difference the amount of games plays. its much easier focusing on one league at a time than on 2 at once plus carrying ur worthless team through proleague, which in 2009/10 has many more games to play than back in 03/04.
at the height of his dominance, oov lost in the gilette osl against july, he lost at the you are the golf king msl to xellos, he lost at the ever osl against xellos, he lost at uzoo msl against reach, he lost at the cyon msl to savior and he didnt even qualify for one or 2 osls early in his career while he was already winning msls. all these losses were before the finals.....
On January 14 2011 08:59 1Eris1 wrote: Let us not forget how much oov changed the game. If he had never played, you can be guranteed flash would not be as dominant as he is, because he would not have the strategies available to him that he does now.
Of course, flash is probably the most talented player to ever play this game etc etc.
The question for this debate is, would flash have dominated as he did if he played in oovs era and vice versa? Maybe less taletned oppenents, but also less strategies and builds.
this is completely derailing and changing the debate. this is not even the same question. moreover, how influential a player is does not equate to how dominate he is. this is really a different topic completely
can someone give a quick rundown of Flash's accomplishments, kinda been missing from the SC scene for a year and a half and just returned 2 weeks ago. Someone needs to do a detailed write up.
I've read Oov's stats and looked at his career and it is honestly spectacular. For the time he was playing in, he was definitely the undisputed most dominant of all time.
I think when people hear "most dominant" there is a bit of "he beat everyone at the time" plus "amazing skill level" in there.
Both Flash and Oov exhibited this, and in fact Savior did too in his time and various other players at certain points of time, and they were all incredibly skilled for their periods of dominance (Flash being the only one still around).
The thing that has me (and I believe the others) put Flash ahead of Oov is the period we're in. Back when Oov was dominating the idea of macro had not been developed much at all and so he was playing versus people who were good, but could not play the game to its full capacity. However, the people that Flash is playing know far more about the full capacity of the game. Sure it may not be everything there is to know, but it's certainly a very big amount of what there is to know. That's why it's so impressive that Flash dominates the way he does, and what has me say that he is the most dominant of all time.
to be fair though, who can honestly say they followed BW back in 03-04? It seems that it is much easier to follow the scene in Korea these days. Heck, YouTube didn't even exist in Oov's day.
On January 14 2011 09:52 buickskylark wrote: can someone give a quick rundown of Flash's accomplishments, kinda been missing from the SC scene for a year and a half and just returned 2 weeks ago. Someone needs to do a detailed write up.
starting with the beginning of the 09/10 pl season, flash went into godmode for one whole year. he finally was living up to his gigantic potential. he knocked out jd in the ever osl ro8, and went on to beat movie in the rather unspectacular finals. in the msl, he and jd met in one of the most anticipated finals of recent bw history. prior to this finals, flash has had ridiculous winstreaks in both tvt and tvz, and as i said had kicked out jd of the osl. flash definitely was the favorite in the finals, about 65:35.
but jd was very prepared and played superb on that day. in game 1 he defeated flash handily. in game 2, he was pulling way ahead again. he was on 4 bases with basically only 1 ground entrance to his base which was covered by something like 8 sunkes. in a stroke of genius, flash avoided them by doing a drop with 2 dropships with defense matrix to tank the patroling scourges. flash killed jds tech before hive kicked in and won.
in game 3 on odd eye, they were both trading armies and bases and blows. it was a fantastic game. there was an up-and-down fight of almost 5 minutes length at a crucial expo of jd. it looked like jd had repelled it but flash had massive production going on, although he was on only 2 running bases. but he was gathering troops for a new attack at jds key expo. then baaaaaaaaam - black screen. a power outage in the whole mbc studio. after almost an hour of waiting time, the referees decided to award the game to jd. this caused flashs dad to go bezerk mode verbally attack the referees and officials. in game 4 flash was mentally out of it and lost early on without much resistance.
in proleague and winnersleague, he was still having a fantastic season with a close to 90% winrate. he made it to dual finals in the following sl season aswell, facing effort in the osl and jd again in the msl. jd had dropped out of the osl in the first round against baby btw.
the osl finals was held first. it was quite epic: the korean air osl finals was held at the airplane hangar of korean air, with an extremely large audience. by far the biggest crowd in recent times, some 10-20 thousand guys. flash was destroying a helpless effort in the first 2 games. in games 3 and 4, flash went for very risky, funky early aggression builds which both failed. in the final game effort overran flash with a high econ speedling all-in which flash failed to defend against. effort had came back 3-2 after being down 0-2....
it must be noted though that effort was flashs main tvz practice partner at that time (as kts zergs were way too bad to emulate jds play and thus help flash prepare for him). therefore effort knew flashs thought-process and timings in and out.
some few days later, flash faced jd in the msl finals and this time was the underdog. noone could believe his eyes when flash then proceeded to 3-0 a helpless jd.
in the 5th round of proleague flash had a ridiculous streak of losses in acematches, but as his team had a huge lead going into R5, they comfortably secured the first place anyway. in the proleague finals, KT finally defeated their old rivals SKT, with flash dealing the finishing blow in the 6th game. kt finally had taken revenge on skt, spearheaded by flash.
in this starleague season, flash made the 3rd consecutive dual finals, so he was in all 6 finals of the season. he was facing jd in both of them. in the msl finals, which took place first, flash was destroying jd in the first 2 sets. it was reminiscent of the rape from the previous msl finals. but then in the 3rd game, jd came back and defeated flash in a nice and tense game. in the 4th game, flash hit a bad liftoff timing of his CC which was part of his wall-in, which jd used to runby speedlings into gg. suddenly it was reminiscent of flashs crumble in the korean air finals..... in the 5th set though, flash went for a very early ebay build which made his m&m trade very favourable against jds muta harass. in the end, flash hit a perfect timing to destroy jds expos and won the series.
2 weeks later, they met again in shanghai in the korean air 2 osl finals in front of the oriental pearl tower. flash won game 1. in game 2 jd went for a 4pool. after some ridiculous fights and after it looked like flash might have defended it, jd prevailed. in the 3rd game, jd went for a 4pool again but this time flash defended against it perfectly. flash was up 2-1, but the 4th game was played on a map which was considered extremely Z favoured. flash went for an extremely strange 7rax build which dealt great damage to jd. jd managed to stay in the game though and tried a huge doomdrop into flashs main. but flash defended perfectly and then went on to stomp jd.
some weeks later, jd defeated flash in the finals of the korean wcg selection tournament, so they both went on to represent korea at the grand finals of the wcg tour. there they met in the finals again. flash had defeated jd with some complicated mindgames in the previous starleague finals and was clearly ahead in the psychological warfare going into this finals, but this time they both decided to go for standard macro builds in all 3 games. flash won 2-1 after 3 really great games. it was by far the best finals between the 2 of them during that year, and the only one to truely live up to the hype of their heated rivalry, the leessang rok. game 2 on tau cross from that wcg series is the game of the year imho and by far the best game flash and jd have played against each other that year. check it out if u want to see their rivalry at its best.
to sum it up: over the course of one season, flash has made
- 6 out of 6 starleague finals - 3 consecutive dual final appearances - won 4 (out of 6) golds - led his team to the proleague title they had been waiting for for sooooo long - won the wcg - defeated jd in bo5s three times; in a row btw. prior to that season, jd had only lost 3 bo5s during his whole career.... flash changed that to 6 bo5s in only 4 months - set an elo peak record of 2443, while the second best, held by jd, is at 2378 or something like that. his elo was above 2350 for pretty much all the season - had a winrate of about 85% in official matches
basically, he was 2 golds away from playing the 100% perfect season, and one of his only 2 lost titles of that season is at least controversial because of the power outage incident.
a sidenote on the level of dominance both flash and jd exerted during this year: both have only lost one series against some other player (flash to effort, jd to baby), besides that, they only eliminated each other from the starleagues.
On January 14 2011 08:09 FireBlast! wrote: Imagine a player coming out of nowhere right now, obliterating Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu all into a slump.
If he could just get into 1 finals at a time he still wouldn't be as dominating as Flash's run. There wasn't a finals in 2010 where Flash wasn't the opponent. Thats how dominating he was.
This while he dominated the proleague. I don't see how oov can beat that...
If you had a finals between Oov and anyone else, I'd pick Oov simply cause that guy was a champ when it mattered. If you had a finals between Flash and anyone else, there are times where I'd actually pick other players. Like if Flash played Jaedong on better maps, I'd pick JD to win over Flash. But back in those days, there was absolutely 0 doubt in anyone's mind that iloveoov was going to win the finals once he got there. Because he was that good.
Sorry, but that assumes oov would make it to the finals in the first place.
On January 14 2011 10:27 jalstar wrote: Dominance Level 0: (3+ finals within a year, or 2+ finals within a year, winning 1+) YellOw, Reach, ChoJJa, Kingdom, Stork
Dominance Level 1: (3+ finals within a year, winning 2+) Nal_rA, July, Bisu, Jaedong
Dominance Level 3: (6+ finals within a year, winning 4+) Flash
Just gonna post this in every thread about dominance.
im surprised by how accurately this reflects my personal ranking of dominance. oO only nal_ra is rather one category down in my books. but other than that i completely agree with it.
some weeks later, jd defeated flash in the finals of the korean wcg selection tournament, so they both went on to represent korea at the grand finals of the wcg tour. there they met in the finals again. flash had defeated jd with some complicated mindgames in the previous starleague finals and was clearly ahead in the psychological warfare going into this finals, but this time they both decided to go for standard macro builds in all 3 games. flash won 2-1 after 3 really great games. it was by far the best finals between the 2 of them during that year, and the only one to truely live up to the hype of their heated rivalry, the leessang rok. game 2 on tau cross from that wcg series is the game of the year imho and by far the best game flash and jd have played against each other that year. check it out if u want to see their rivalry at its best.
It wasn't the final. It was the semi. Flash won the final vs Kal.
On January 14 2011 08:37 Musou wrote: The entire reason Flash dominates against so-called "mediocre" players is precisely because he exists. The thing is, there are no other Starleague winners for Flash to dominate because Flash and Jaedong have won all of them since he appeared on the scene.
Remember when jaedong was #1? Fantasy, leta, jangbi, much, hwasin, mind, sea, calm, luxury were all doing good. Guess who wasn't winning starleagues? Flash.
But then all those players pretty much vanished for 2 years. It was then that Flash started slapping people around. Eventually he figured JD out and that was it.
some weeks later, jd defeated flash in the finals of the korean wcg selection tournament, so they both went on to represent korea at the grand finals of the wcg tour. there they met in the finals again. flash had defeated jd with some complicated mindgames in the previous starleague finals and was clearly ahead in the psychological warfare going into this finals, but this time they both decided to go for standard macro builds in all 3 games. flash won 2-1 after 3 really great games. it was by far the best finals between the 2 of them during that year, and the only one to truely live up to the hype of their heated rivalry, the leessang rok. game 2 on tau cross from that wcg series is the game of the year imho and by far the best game flash and jd have played against each other that year. check it out if u want to see their rivalry at its best.
It wasn't the final. It was the semi. Flash won the final vs Kal.
really? oO
well, it was the de facto finals, as kal has been flash´s and jaedong´s bitch forever. he has an atrocious winrate against both of them...
On January 14 2011 10:23 dras wrote: to be fair though, who can honestly say they followed BW back in 03-04? It seems that it is much easier to follow the scene in Korea these days. Heck, YouTube didn't even exist in Oov's day.
i did, and i will comfortably say that flash > oov.
On January 14 2011 10:47 StylishVODs wrote: Everyone pretty much vanished when Flash started to dominate, or atleast it looked like it.
fantasy gave him one hell of a fight in the bigfile msl semis. effort gave him good fights and even beat him in the korean air osl finals. jd made it to 4 of 6 finals that season and set a new personal elo peak during the process. kal had a very good season, but was stopped at the semis by flash or jd again and again.
its not like he had no opposition at all. the fact that jd also had a very good and dominant season just meant that many other potentially dangerous players were taken out before flash could play em.
Flash appeared in every finals of 2010. Every finals. This includes not just the starleagues but WCG korea, WCG grand finals, winner's league finals and SPL grand finals. Once again just to be safe, Flash appeared in every finals of 2010.
On January 14 2011 08:37 Musou wrote: The entire reason Flash dominates against so-called "mediocre" players is precisely because he exists. The thing is, there are no other Starleague winners for Flash to dominate because Flash and Jaedong have won all of them since he appeared on the scene.
Remember when jaedong was #1? Fantasy, leta, jangbi, much, hwasin, mind, sea, calm, luxury were all doing good. Guess who wasn't winning starleagues? Flash.
But then all those players pretty much vanished for 2 years. It was then that Flash started slapping people around. Eventually he figured JD out and that was it.
It's getting pretty obvious that you're just hating on Flash instead of looking at it objectively. Fantasy had the best year of his career in 2010 in terms of win rate. Sea got past the round of 16 for the first time in 2010. Leta has been relatively consistent and one of the non-S-class players to be called an S-class indicator. Calm and Kal were also considered S-class indicators as of 2010 by Korean media. Flash has had to defeat the toughest opponents consistently to get to finals in individual leagues, all while maintaining a nearly 90% win ratio in Proleague before his string of ace losses in R5.
I change my point. I think its impossible to actually compare who is the most dominant player of all time simply because eras are different. Some say that flash is purely the most dominant out there but the era which he dominated in( which is now) is filled with challenges. At oov's time, there were still many builds undiscovered and standards were also not the same then.
You can't just compare about league finals and achievements, because winning a starleague now and then probably held different status. Some may say that its blasphemy to think this way as playing standards are at a much higher level now, but i would probably credit it to flash's nature of undying determination to do well. After all, newer generations of progamers have to conform to playing standards.
Flash is without a doubt the most dominant player now, but i wouldn't compare since theres just too many factors involved for an accurate comparison to be made to sieve out thw most dominant player of all time.
On January 14 2011 10:23 dras wrote: to be fair though, who can honestly say they followed BW back in 03-04? It seems that it is much easier to follow the scene in Korea these days. Heck, YouTube didn't even exist in Oov's day.
i did, and i will comfortably say that flash > oov.
noted, thank you
would you say flash crushes oov, or is it splitting hairs?
I think that Flash was more dominate. The reasons have been listed many times, focusing chiefly on 6 finals in 3 seasons - something oov did not accomplish.
Oov's dominance is scary because, as stated, he came out of nowhere and dominated the greatest players in the world. 2010 Flash did not come out of no where - he won an OSL two years prior. Oov became a Bonjwa (even if the term wasn't in high use back then) in literally a matter of months out of beginning his professional career. That's impressive as all hell. And it was scary as all hell back then. Sure Boxer chose him... but he had a completely different style - he was _not_ Boxer's apprentice like Fantasy is to oov.
Oov came out of BNet and destroyed everybody. Oov dominance shattered beliefs about what could be done. That's why he is even considered to compare with Flash. But shock and awe is not the same as dominance. After those first few months he continued to win golds, but never dominated enough to make dual finals the same season.
Flash is late 2009 to early 2010 has nearly as good win/loss record as Oov from late 2003 to early 2004. Oov gets the nod in pure win loss in their respective periods. But he still wasn't doing anything in the OSL. Flash picked up another loss or two but traded them for a silver. This is far more impressive. Meanwhile, after these few months, Flash continued to dominate 2010 and go to 4 more finals and get 3 more golds. Oov's record for the latter half of 2004 is inferior to Flash's from the latter half of 2010. He got 3 more golds, but he faltered in several leagues and didn't make dual finals.
Here's something that will show you true dominance. OSL and MSL listed in order of tournament completion. Gold and Silver only listed.
Flash's dominance didn't pause to allow other players to make the finals. 'Nuff said. Oov's scariness from being dominant so quickly perhaps clouds people's memories of following the Starleague finals that oov watched on TV.
I don't understand why it's so hard to compare the two. Pro starcraft is all about winning, or placing very high in leagues. Starleagues, proleague and wcg (wich probably is far less important).
The skill level of the opponents at the time should have nothing to do with it. It's more impressive, but not more dominating if the opponents were better.
Oov might have "roflstomped" alot of his opponents, something I'd say Flash also has done with a few exeptions, but he still didn't even make it to half as many finals as Flash did.
Oov was consistantly knocked out of one league at a time, while flash remained in both and flash accomplished far more than oov did during their prime year. Flash was in more finals than oov and won more finals than oov. Thats it.
Honestly...the issue remains, that Flash has The Tyrant to worry about. Sure, he may be the best (a contested point to some die hard JD fans), but if Jaedong, or Stork were to play him, no one is going to bet all their marbles on Flash. Period. The potential for loss against these two remains a constant. For oov, who was there? July? That was the beginning of him mortality.
I'd have to agree with the OP, though I think that Flash DOES have more of an "aura" of dominance than oov, he's certainly not as dominant.
some weeks later, jd defeated flash in the finals of the korean wcg selection tournament, so they both went on to represent korea at the grand finals of the wcg tour. there they met in the finals again. flash had defeated jd with some complicated mindgames in the previous starleague finals and was clearly ahead in the psychological warfare going into this finals, but this time they both decided to go for standard macro builds in all 3 games. flash won 2-1 after 3 really great games. it was by far the best finals between the 2 of them during that year, and the only one to truely live up to the hype of their heated rivalry, the leessang rok. game 2 on tau cross from that wcg series is the game of the year imho and by far the best game flash and jd have played against each other that year. check it out if u want to see their rivalry at its best.
It wasn't the final. It was the semi. Flash won the final vs Kal.
really? oO
well, it was the de facto finals, as kal has been flash´s and jaedong´s bitch forever. he has an atrocious winrate against both of them...
Sort of derailing here, but every BW fan needs to watch that FvJ series. Because of WCG's lack of prestige compared to the OSL and MSL (like Olympics is to the NBA), those games got far less attention (or at least it seemed like it).
As someone who saw both periods of domination which I rank both #1 and #2 of all time, Flash takes it for me. It lways seemed to me, and this is not detracting at how hard he dominated, that oov mainly won because he was the pioneer of the econ heavy macro style which allowed him to steamroll players once he got past the early game. Flash on the other obviously plays at a time when everyone has to know how to macro but he is just ridiculously good at everything, in particular his game sense, timings, and ability to survive and come back from behind which makes his winning style seem more dominating because he "doesn't know how to lose".
The past year belonged to Flash. There were some times where he would lose, but his performance was dominant. 6 of 6 finals if difficult enough, but including a dual finals in there is pretty much impossible, and winning proleague at the same time is a feat only Flash has accomplished. I think what also increases Flash's dominance over all others is that he had to compete with Jaedong the whole time (including 4 finals). The only thing bad you could say about Flash's past year was the Ace match slump.
On January 14 2011 14:49 Kimaker wrote: Honestly...the issue remains, that Flash has The Tyrant to worry about. Sure, he may be the best (a contested point to some die hard JD fans), but if Jaedong, or Stork were to play him, no one is going to bet all their marbles on Flash. Period. The potential for loss against these two remains a constant. For oov, who was there? July? That was the beginning of him mortality.
I'd have to agree with the OP, though I think that Flash DOES have more of an "aura" of dominance than oov, he's certainly not as dominant.
If i had seen a Flash vs Jaedong anytime in the past year, i would definitely have bet my marbles on Flash. Vs stork is slightly different but I would still favor Flash above stork.
On January 14 2011 13:36 StylishVODs wrote: I don't understand why it's so hard to compare the two. Pro starcraft is all about winning, or placing very high in leagues. Starleagues, proleague and wcg (wich probably is far less important).
The skill level of the opponents at the time should have nothing to do with it. It's more impressive, but not more dominating if the opponents were better.
Oov might have "roflstomped" alot of his opponents, something I'd say Flash also has done with a few exeptions, but he still didn't even make it to half as many finals as Flash did.
Oov was consistantly knocked out of one league at a time, while flash remained in both and flash accomplished far more than oov did during their prime year. Flash was in more finals than oov and won more finals than oov. Thats it.
Edit: Nice post crisium, pretty much sums it up.
Aren't you that guy that did the FPVODs for Terran and did some Flash build thing, I watched those in 2008 ^^
Yeah the stats don't lie, and Flash still maintains his godliness aura when he plays, when you watch him you just don't feel like he can lose, of course this is slightly biased because I only followed the scene in 2008, but this is still important because of the impression he gives even to newer followers of the scene, because ultimately, how much he dominates is based on public opinion. NaDa may have more titles at the moment, but I feel that in time Flash will easily surpass that unless TaekBangLee pull out the god-mode, he's easily playing the best games of Starcraft anyone has seen - and no I don't find them boring
However, if I were a progamer and saw that I was playing someone with those stats on the OP screenshot I'd shit my pants.
EDIT: I'd bet my marbles on Flash vs anyone at the moment with his current form. (Though I'd pray for Jaedong to somehow pull through ^^)
Flash has certainly accomplished more in the span of a year. Oov, however, had me convinced for a time that he broken the game. I can't say that about Flash.
On January 14 2011 08:09 FireBlast! wrote: Imagine a player coming out of nowhere right now, obliterating Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu all into a slump.
If he could just get into 1 finals at a time he still wouldn't be as dominating as Flash's run. There wasn't a finals in 2010 where Flash wasn't the opponent. Thats how dominating he was.
This while he dominated the proleague. I don't see how oov can beat that...
The guy made people look BAD. Fuck, we're talking about a guy who used to be credited with the longest TvZ winstreak at 27 games. Opened his career with 27 TvZ victories. He pretty much shit on everyone in the day, and he made them look SILLY. Crushed Nada, the Terran genius of the day. This guy was undoubtedly the best player for a year, and he made everyone look really really bad.
If you had a finals between Oov and anyone else, I'd pick Oov simply cause that guy was a champ when it mattered. If you had a finals between Flash and anyone else, there are times where I'd actually pick other players. Like if Flash played Jaedong on better maps, I'd pick JD to win over Flash. But back in those days, there was absolutely 0 doubt in anyone's mind that iloveoov was going to win the finals once he got there. Because he was that good.
Same here. When I watch oov that time, it made me feel like the game was really broken and there is no way to fix it. I can't feel the same for flash. Maybe because of the ceiling the game has reached today. But anyways, oov was really really scary during that time.
On January 14 2011 15:59 Dingotrold wrote: Without oov, no Flash.
Without Boxer, no oov.
Boxer obv most dominant player of all time.
Problem debaters?
trolling? please learn the difference between dominant and influential
I was trolling... Thought the last sentence would give away my intentions. There is a point to be made though, in terms of understanding why any comparison will never be definite.
On January 13 2011 23:23 oBlade wrote: iloveoov ultimately took the H.O.T-Forever route of team welfare > selfish individual attempts at stardom. Also, he got married. But I'd agree with Holgerius, how can you look at sAviOr's measly run and ignore Flash? A whole host of Zergs were ZvP gods.
He didn't get married until like a year and a half ago, which was far before he fell off the radar.
On January 13 2011 23:23 oBlade wrote: iloveoov ultimately took the H.O.T-Forever route of team welfare > selfish individual attempts at stardom.
ultimately he became a coach because the alternative was just retiring after his wrist injury. He didn't really have too many attempts left at stardom so this wasn't about being selfish/non-selfish.
On January 14 2011 16:26 weiliem wrote: Y nobody seems to RememberJuly's existence in Oov's domination period, and where July 3-0ed Oov in 1 of the finals during Oov's domination.....
That might be because that never happened.
July beat him 3-1 in the ITV finals, but that was after what I consider to be Oov's period of invincibility.
For me he is the most dominant player of all time. When he played he went 5-0 in major tournament finals, he also did it in a shorter span than anyone. His periode of dominance is by far the best.
the thing is oov went from battle.net to osl winner just like that
everyone was like who the fuck is this guy and bam ... boxer cried ...
its like force and pressure ... oov might have a less significant force, but it was applied over a smaller area (i.e period of time) -> the pressure felt is greater ...
whereas every knows flash has been great all along and it comes to little surprised that he dominated the scene when there was literally only jaedong who had a shot at taking him down ... (bisu and stork slumped hard core) ... in short, flash was consistently good, and eventually became god while oov ate banana and bagged 5 golds ...
I'm not oldschool enough to comment on Oov in detail, but as a zerg player and enthusiast (I've like always been cheeing for zerg lol, so biased), Flash 2010 was some of the most depressing in my life of pro starcraft watching. Whenever a game included Flash, I sometimes didn't even wanna watch because it was like being spoiled from the get go; it was that unlikely that Flash would lose. Of course watching him play (whenever I didn't blindly rage "omg tvz imba ffs!!!") was beautiful, such brilliance and technical mastery have never been seen before, and probably never will. Oov was good (understatement, I know), but Flash is imo, the best a bw player will ever be. Noone can top that monster!
4 golds, 2 silvers, WCG gold, winner's league gold being MVP, proleague gold being MVP. Flash made it to EVERY finals, and won almost all of them. Iloveoov was knocked out of multiple leagues.
On January 13 2011 23:18 Holgerius wrote: I think Flash's 2010 is more ridculous.
Flash's '10 run is enough for me to call him one of the best and most dominant players. If just he wouldn't have lost to fucking EffOrt i would actually call him the best
In his peak, there was no doubt that oov will roll over his opponent like he is some newb. A lot of people claimed that this is the end of bw as he was just making the game uninteresting with his unparallel dominance. Boxer and Nadas best moments of domination are not even close when oov was doing his thing. If you search for older live report threads you can see that the games went like that "oov sending wokers to mine, oov getting out of his base, gg". It was ridiculous.
You never know what is going to happen when flash plays jd.
Thinking about this over for awhile I think I would actually say Flash is most dominant. My reasoning is that Oov's era was him mostly winning against people who didn't know how to play against the new macro play he introduced and after he got figured out he didn't reach the same dominance. While with Flash he came out on top of an already developed game and still brings new stuff time after time. When one thing gets figured out he brings another. During oov's time he was just so far ahead over everyone else which is why he won so many games. Influential I will say iloveoov is still the most but dominance will probably be considered Flash. Though I think Iloveoov had harder runs for his msl and osl wins while Flash never really had to face anyone besides Jaedong in the finals except his first osl win which was just absurdly insane. Its a hard call.
I keep hearing that iloveoov more dominant than Flash because of the way he won. Supposedly he made his opponents "look bad". If all iloveoov was doing during his prime was rolling over people with ease then he should have better results to show for it. The fact remains that iloveoov was regularly dropping individual leagues in his prime. He was getting knocked out of one individual league a season by other players. He obviously didn't make those players "look bad", nor he did he "dominate" them.
On January 14 2011 19:40 J1.au wrote: I keep hearing that iloveoov more dominant than Flash because of the way he won. Supposedly he made his opponents "look bad". If all iloveoov was doing during his prime was rolling over people with ease then he should have better results to show for it. The fact remains that iloveoov was regularly dropping individual leagues in his prime. He was getting knocked out of one individual league a season by other players. He obviously didn't make those players "look bad", nor he did he "dominate" them.
Why are you are arguing about something, which apparantly you cant comprehend? He made players look bad and he dominated everyone. Of course he didnt have 100% win record lol. Dominant is not equal to "the best".
Just because oov can make other players look bad doesn't mean Flash can not. Check out the Flash vs Free series in KA OSL S2. Free was a potential Royal Roader, on a 9-game winning streak in the OSL and Flash said before the match that he would break Free's streak. Flash vs Best @ Fortress was also worth checking imo, as it was one of the worst beatdown ever.
On January 14 2011 18:06 Sqq wrote: For me he is the most dominant player of all time. When he played he went 5-0 in major tournament finals, he also did it in a shorter span than anyone. His periode of dominance is by far the best.
On January 14 2011 18:08 nayumi wrote: the thing is oov went from battle.net to osl winner just like that
everyone was like who the fuck is this guy and bam ... boxer cried ...
its like force and pressure ... oov might have a less significant force, but it was applied over a smaller area (i.e period of time) -> the pressure felt is greater ...
whereas every knows flash has been great all along and it comes to little surprised that he dominated the scene when there was literally only jaedong who had a shot at taking him down ... (bisu and stork slumped hard core) ... in short, flash was consistently good, and eventually became god while oov ate banana and bagged 5 golds ...
Between the Trigem MSL and EVER 2004 OSL, iloveoov won a league every season. This is over a period of about 14 months. During this time, he appeared in four finals and got four golds. He never made two finals (I say two instead of both/dual because back then there were some GhemTV leagues and other stuff) in one season.
On the other hand, between EVER 2009 and Korean Air S2, over a period of 12 months (this is important because it was 3 seasons, shorter than iloveoov's 4 seasons), Flash appeared in six finals. He appeared in *all* finals. He made dual finals three seasons in a row. In that shorter time he matched iloveoov's achievement of 4 golds and on top of that got two silvers.
While Flash got his 4 golds faster than iloveoov's 4 golds, iloveoov got his 5th gold quicker than Flash. He won Shinhan OSL over July about a year after EVER. But Flash won Bacchus like 1.6 years before his streak.
Don't forget back then Shinhan wasn't sponsoring the PL forever. Individual leagues still held more prestige. I can't really fit this into the analysis because it means that other players would be focused more on individual leagues, meaning iloveoov's lack of dual leaguing is more excusable. But it also means that you have to give another point to Flash for crushing the PL on top of 6 finals and WCG.
On January 13 2011 23:18 Holgerius wrote: I think Flash's 2010 is more ridculous.
Flash's '10 run is enough for me to call him one of the best and most dominant players. If just he wouldn't have lost to fucking EffOrt i would actually call him the best
Really, you hold Flash back for losing to Effort in the finals? What about Oov losing even before the OSL Ro16 twice during his dominant period? Or losing to July in a semi-finals? So it is more dominate to lose early in the tournament, usually to non-champions?
On January 14 2011 19:40 J1.au wrote: I keep hearing that iloveoov more dominant than Flash because of the way he won. Supposedly he made his opponents "look bad". If all iloveoov was doing during his prime was rolling over people with ease then he should have better results to show for it. The fact remains that iloveoov was regularly dropping individual leagues in his prime. He was getting knocked out of one individual league a season by other players. He obviously didn't make those players "look bad", nor he did he "dominate" them.
oov is the most dominant, how can you even argue against someone dethroning Boxer. Btw I don't buy the 'it was easier back then' story, the fact is that oov shifted the whole meta-game with his new method of playing, while Flash already had all possible strategies and perfected matchups served to him on a gold plate.
On January 13 2011 23:09 dras wrote: - Had a stretch from 2003.10.23 to 2004.02.03, in which he went 33–3 (according to TLPD). This is the best streak by a player of all time.
What does this mean, exactly? I went 3-0 once. Rate-wise, surely that's better.
The fact that Oov innovated the game the way he did is actually not very relevant when talking about how dominant he was. If we are discussing influence, sure, but that is not the topic.
On January 14 2011 23:20 Holgerius wrote: The fact that Oov innovated the game the way he did is actually not very relevant when talking about how dominant he was. If we are discussing influence, sure, but that is not the topic.
I think its quite the opposite. The new level of play that oov introduced is the reason why his domination was so strong. His style was something new and gamebreaking and people didnt know what to do against it.
On January 14 2011 23:20 Holgerius wrote: The fact that Oov innovated the game the way he did is actually not very relevant when talking about how dominant he was. If we are discussing influence, sure, but that is not the topic.
Yes it is very relevant or else there is no discussion about who is the most dominant, if you only look at stats.
On January 14 2011 23:20 Holgerius wrote: The fact that Oov innovated the game the way he did is actually not very relevant when talking about how dominant he was. If we are discussing influence, sure, but that is not the topic.
I think its quite the opposite. The new level of play that oov introduced is the reason why his domination was so strong. His style was something new and gamebreaking and people didnt know what to do against it.
It is the reason why, yes, but it doesn't make him more dominating than if he had gotten the same results by any other means. Fact; Oov didn't reach dual finals despite having this style that ''people didn't know what to do against''.
I wanna say oov is the most dominant player of all time... I mean, he had such a short time where he came straight off the bat and dominated until his untimely injury which led to his retirement and (i think) exemption from the army~
On January 14 2011 23:37 mdb wrote: I dont think that this fact, that you mention is relevant to the topic of discussion. You can say it in another way :
Fact: oov is 5-0 in finals - total dominance Fact: flash is not 5-0 in finals - not total dominance
What the fuck? This is just so stupid. Are you serious?
On January 14 2011 23:37 mdb wrote: I dont think that this fact, that you mention is relevant to the topic of discussion. You can say it in another way :
Fact: oov is 5-0 in finals - total dominance Fact: flash is not 5-0 in finals - not total dominance
Fact: flash is 6-0 in reaching a year's worth of finals. Fact: oov is not 6-0 in reaching a year's worth of finals.
On January 14 2011 23:37 mdb wrote: I dont think that this fact, that you mention is relevant to the topic of discussion. You can say it in another way :
Fact: oov is 5-0 in finals - total dominance Fact: flash is not 5-0 in finals - not total dominance
Honestly? Have you read any of my posts about this?
I was being ironic (failed attempt).What I was trying to say, is that the fact that oov didnt reach dual finals does not mean a lot when talking about dominance.
Oh, but it does. It is very common when discussing Savior or Oov for people to make it sound as though they were unbeatable, when clearly they weren't. There's always this talk about ''People just knew he was gonna win before the games even started''. Well, guess people were wrong quite a lot. 4 golds (and golds in WCG+WL+PL) and 2 silvers is better and more dominant than 4 golds.
Just as it takes someone as smart as Boxer or Flash to cheese at the right times, it takes someone as smart as oov or Savior to see it coming every single time.
It really can't be questioned that Flash dominated more. It also can't be questioned that Oov did far more for the BW scene that Flash (or damn near anyone else) did.
I mean really, when Flash gets it to the point where he makes BW boring by making every final the same thing for a year, that's just pure fucking domination.
On January 15 2011 00:08 dras wrote: what about flash losing in the msl and osl last month though? his decision making was pretty terrible in those games.
We're talking about Flash's 2010 up until the beginning of those starleagues (since those leagues actually finish in 2011).
It's all a fairly pointless debate, one that could be carried on indefinitely. But, FWIW, I think jalstar's ranking is quite good (levels 0-2 feel right and I'm inclined to extrapolate to level 3). + Show Spoiler +
On January 14 2011 10:27 jalstar wrote: Dominance Level 0: (3+ finals within a year, or 2+ finals within a year, winning 1+) YellOw, Reach, ChoJJa, Kingdom, Stork
Dominance Level 1: (3+ finals within a year, winning 2+) Nal_rA, July, Bisu, Jaedong
On January 15 2011 01:37 dangots0ul wrote: 16-3 vs protoss over that period of time LOL........
Roughly the same win-rate as Flash had during 2010 vs Protoss (with around 50 games played).
32-11 for oov 2003-2004 39-8 for Flash 2010
If you go by stats only, then yes Flash was more dominant. However no one would value his dominance higher than oov's. So it depends on how you look at it.
Flash had his majority of wins vs players like Pure, Kal and free. Basically bygoners. A few wins vs Stork who was invisible all 2010. A couple of wins vs Bisu and 50% vs BeSt who are great at PvT, that's a feat. Rest vs lesser known players.
Then you have oov that played vs players like Reach, Nal_rA, Kingdom, Grrr, RainBOw and Zeus.
Personally, I think the value of the dominance in question should be accounted for. And Flash has nothing to say in that respect. If he did dominate like this in 2007-2008 or so, I would agree he's the most dominant player of all time. But 2009-2010 was the period where BW started to decline and there's just not that seriousness in the progaming scene anymore after all the turn of bad events.
On January 15 2011 01:37 dangots0ul wrote: 16-3 vs protoss over that period of time LOL........
Roughly the same win-rate as Flash had during 2010 vs Protoss (with around 50 games played).
32-11 for oov 2003-2004 39-8 for Flash 2010
If you go by stats only, then yes Flash was more dominant. However no one would value his dominance higher than oov's.
Lol! A lot of people in this thread are doing that...
Personally, I think the value of the dominance in question should be accounted for. And Flash has nothing to say in that respect. If he did dominate like this in 2007-2008 or so, I would agree he's the most dominant player of all time. But 2009-2010 was the period where BW started to decline and there's just not that seriousness in the progaming scene anymore after all the turn of bad events.
You are obviously exaggerating, but this question is quite interesting though: I had a feeling Flash was that mega-dominant for two reasons. 1) He was playing absurdly well. 2) This patch of dominance came in a time when a "good protoss" was an oxymoron, so the scene really boiled down to terran vs zerg in a way... That is why I am so happy to see a protoss resurgence rencently.
Edit: but don't get me wrong, there probably was this knid of reasons behind the oov-dominance too. I'm too new to the scene to have seen him in his prime.
Flash had Jaedong. He had to deal with the second most accomplished progamer ever who during 2010 had a higher win % and reached more finals than any other year previously in his career, and still he dominated the way he did.
On January 14 2011 22:11 oBlade wrote: Between the Trigem MSL and EVER 2004 OSL, iloveoov won a league every season. This is over a period of about 14 months. During this time, he appeared in four finals and got four golds. He never made two finals (I say two instead of both/dual because back then there were some GhemTV leagues and other stuff) in one season.
On the other hand, between EVER 2009 and Korean Air S2, over a period of 12 months (this is important because it was 3 seasons, shorter than iloveoov's 4 seasons), Flash appeared in six finals. He appeared in *all* finals. He made dual finals three seasons in a row. In that shorter time he matched iloveoov's achievement of 4 golds and on top of that got two silvers.
On January 14 2011 13:22 Crisium wrote: Oov - 7 tournaments - 4 golds - 0 silvers
Flash's dominance didn't pause to allow other players to make the finals. 'Nuff said. Oov's scariness from being dominant so quickly perhaps clouds people's memories of following the Starleague finals that oov watched on TV.
When you use a great name, you have to be careful because we associate a name like Reach with the best parts of his career. Yet Grr was surely not in his prime when iloveoov was in his. Don't overestimate the prestige we should award victories over ostensibly big names. Then don't compare the best victories of oov with the apparently walkover victories of Flash. We're also talking about dragons, Jaedong, S-class terrans. And we're also talking about JJu, TheWind, Side, BlacK, Silver, and other victims of oov's.
Suggesting oov had harder opponents suggests something about the distribution of progaming skill changing between then and now.
Last, I'd suggest that a factor in why you dismiss players like Kal and free (*dragons* from that age ffs, and the Kal games were not simply walkovers) is actually that Flash is so good that in your mind you marginalize other players. Players who spend huge amounts of time practicing and have respectable records. The reason we might do this is because Flash's career is still in progress, so instead of saying that he made them look bad, we actually think they're strictly bad.
On January 14 2011 22:11 oBlade wrote: Between the Trigem MSL and EVER 2004 OSL, iloveoov won a league every season. This is over a period of about 14 months. During this time, he appeared in four finals and got four golds. He never made two finals (I say two instead of both/dual because back then there were some GhemTV leagues and other stuff) in one season.
On the other hand, between EVER 2009 and Korean Air S2, over a period of 12 months (this is important because it was 3 seasons, shorter than iloveoov's 4 seasons), Flash appeared in six finals. He appeared in *all* finals. He made dual finals three seasons in a row. In that shorter time he matched iloveoov's achievement of 4 golds and on top of that got two silvers.
Flash's dominance didn't pause to allow other players to make the finals. 'Nuff said. Oov's scariness from being dominant so quickly perhaps clouds people's memories of following the Starleague finals that oov watched on TV.
I'm just gonna post this whole list. Let me explain what it is. This is a list of the OSL and MSL finals winners and second place finishers in order of the last day of the tournament. This is the order that you saw champions crowned. Sometimes the difference is a week or two, sometimes several months. Sometimes the MSL drops off the face of the earth and you have several OSL's in a row, but that doesn't matter. For individual league dominance, these are your champions and runner ups. If you watched the finals as they aired, this is how it happened in order.
I'll add a spoiler tag if people think it is too big.
My point in this is that the past is over glorified. Oov's first 4 Golds took 7 Tournaments, Flash's latter 4 Golds took 6 tournaments. NaDa's took only 5 so I don't know why he isn't for discussion here. There were more OSL's than MSL's during Savior's reign, so his failure in the preliminaries really stands here. There were plenty of other champions during his reign. No one can compare with seeing the name Flash toward the end.
Obviously only one part of a dominance discussion is finalists, but an fyi.
Tip: Hit Ctrl+F, type your players name of choice, and click highlight. That should help you see periods of dominance.
Man, I pressed highlight on Jaedong's name, and it's fucking amazing. If it wasn't for Flash finally reaching his full potential JD would've totally been the greatest player of all time. O_O
Well, I just did the same with Nada, and that was disgusting as well.
On January 15 2011 06:25 StylishVODs wrote: Where is Nada>Savior ? ;O
That happened in OGN Masters.
I'd like to comment that a lot of this is very silly. One of the problems with trying to compare players over different eras is that this game has changed tremendously. When I talk to people who didn't start playing until recently, they just don't have a fucking clue. Not. A. Single. Fucking. Clue. The very way that you think about this game is soooooooooo different it's not funny at all.
So when you compare players over different eras, you have to realize that you aren't comparing the same skills. You are comparing a very, very different skill set.
When you go back in time to Boxer, you're talking about an era where strategic ability mattered a whole hell of a lot more than it does today. Hence why Garimto commented in his blog during the SC2 Beta that SC2 is a harder game.
Furthermore, we talk about "the skill gap" all the time and how it's "closing," always closing. But if you compare win percentages of top players today to top players from a decade ago, the difference is incomparable -- today's top players consistently have higher win percentages. I'm not just talking about Flash or Jaedong. It's true pretty much across the board. Top 10. Top 20. Doesn't matter. Part of it is changes in league format. Part of it is how the metagame has evolved.
I commented that strategic skill is of less importance today than in the past. But metagame understanding is more important than ever before. A small change in build order. A small change in timing. Yet another subtle variation on a strategy that has been in use for years. These are the differences between winners and losers.
I could go on. And on. And on. Starcraft is a completely different game than it was ten years ago and anybody who says otherwise does. not. have. a. fucking. clue. at. all.
Trying to compare bonjwas like this is pretty fucking stupid.
the time when oov played saw the greatest change/progress in playing style in history. at the start of oov's run, people were doing one base strats and had no recognizable concept of economic play. but oov largely showed that winning through map control and econ is the most effective and stable way to go. even if other players like nada had mechanical and micro advantages, they couldn't overcome smart, macro level strategy.
flash is really good at the mature phase of the game obviously and he is a much better player. however, he didn't contribute to the maturing of the game in the way that oov did. when oov was dominating at the beginning of his run, people were forced to rethink how to play the game, and one result of that rethinking is that oov wasn't going to continue his dominance. however, that he did have this tremendous impact on the way the game is played cannot be ignored.
in fact, the proper way of appreciating flash's games is through the lens of oov. you get to see what oov looks like with much better mechanics and micro.
well, it's as much a part of dominance as small sample league performances. for a wide and subjective concept like dominance, a plurality of interpretation can be valuable.
it's always the case that oov can be beaten at his peak, because he was not a product of the modern mechanical training camp of professional starcraft, in which prospective stars are first identified by mechanical aptitude. oov did not dominate because he had gifted mechanics, and he could be beaten if he didn't have a strategic edge on a game. dropping games here and there was expected for a player like this. however, that oov's strategies were much superior is not obscured by small sample losses. the careful analysis would still recognize dominance in oov's run despite his early tournament results, because the win ratio over a large sample is more meaningful.
these two players are both amazing in their own way. oov was remarkable for his revolutionary understanding of the game, while flash is an amazing individual talent who works within the mature framework of the game and find almost perfect gameplans against the best competition in history. flash's mechanics and micro can indeed be matched by many progamers. jaedong is in some way superior to flash in this regard. however, flash's genius is putting his mechanical resources, so to speak, to the effective task of defense. this is precisely the oov idea. getting an econ advantage is the best way of using your attention/apm, whether it is prioritizing macro over micro, or using micro in order to do more econ builds rather than trying cute early rushes. if flash changed his playing style to match bisu or aggressive jaedong, then he would not have his present success.
that flash is the better player by absolute skill level does not diminish oov. however, recognizing oov as more influential and differentiated from his peers doesn't diminish flash either. you can think of oov as the guy with the theoretical breakthrough, while flash is the one putting theory into practical implementation with his natural gifts.
of course, this matter would be much easier if flash was sensible enough to play on t1. but hey, even flash makes mistakes.
On January 15 2011 03:13 oBlade wrote: When you use a great name, you have to be careful because we associate a name like Reach with the best parts of his career. Yet Grr was surely not in his prime when iloveoov was in his. Don't overestimate the prestige we should award victories over ostensibly big names. Then don't compare the best victories of oov with the apparently walkover victories of Flash. We're also talking about dragons, Jaedong, S-class terrans. And we're also talking about JJu, TheWind, Side, BlacK, Silver, and other victims of oov's.
Suggesting oov had harder opponents suggests something about the distribution of progaming skill changing between then and now.
Last, I'd suggest that a factor in why you dismiss players like Kal and free (*dragons* from that age ffs, and the Kal games were not simply walkovers) is actually that Flash is so good that in your mind you marginalize other players. Players who spend huge amounts of time practicing and have respectable records. The reason we might do this is because Flash's career is still in progress, so instead of saying that he made them look bad, we actually think they're strictly bad.
Read up on the history of BW then. Reach, Kingdom, Nal_rA and Zeus were all doing great in tournaments and reached finals left and right both before and after oov won his golds. Protoss was dominating the scene. And trust me I've seen Kal/free since they started playing and I know they are not doing nearly as good now as they did in their peak a few years ago. Not that I know why I'm even arguing about comparing these players to the ones oov played, it's not like Kal/free/Pure won anything.
I'm talking strictly TvP btw, because someone else brought up the matchup records.
Speaking of invincibility, oov himself said even if he had someone he couldn't beat he just pretended like he lost on accident and praised Flash for having the "ideal mindset for a progamer" and that Flash was the player he most would want to train. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=142045#milkis
i hate this thread, its only a guy who have nostalgia over a player that is no more, no one ever give to flash enough just because he is boring,no personality etc. the facts are that the only way you can see OoV pèrformance so much better than flash is in the 5-0 in finals, other than that 2010 for flash alone make OoV look like a teddy bear, and i too was a huge fan of OoV.
Flash showed more dominance than Oov and he did it against a better field of players. I don't even see how you could even make a sensible argument here..
On January 15 2011 09:16 LegendaryZ wrote: Flash showed more dominance than Oov and he did it against a better field of players. I don't even see how you could even make a sensible argument here..
have to agree. the players now are just that much better and the fact is flash has been the best around for the last 2-3 years imo makes him worthy of best of all time imo!
There's a difference between most dominant and best player overall. OOV might be the most dominant since he was completely unbeatable when it mattered(finals) whereas FlaSh has lost multiple times in the finals, but is surely a better player overall, and is probably considered by most to be the greatest of all time. Shaq is the most dominant NBA player ever, but he's far from the best. Just sayin' I dono if OOV really is the most dominant ever, but I can see an argument for it. Personally, I consider FlaSh to be the most dominant as it is honestly a complete shock that he's not going to be in the finals of the current MSL and OSL.
On January 15 2011 09:16 LegendaryZ wrote: Flash showed more dominance than Oov and he did it against a better field of players. I don't even see how you could even make a sensible argument here..
have to agree. the players now are just that much better and the fact is flash has been the best around for the last 2-3 years imo makes him worthy of best of all time imo!
On January 15 2011 09:37 cujo2k wrote: There's a difference between most dominant and best player overall. OOV might be the most dominant since he was completely unbeatable when it mattered(finals) whereas FlaSh has lost multiple times in the finals, but is surely a better player overall, and is probably considered by most to be the greatest of all time. Shaq is the most dominant NBA player ever, but he's far from the best. Just sayin' I dono if OOV really is the most dominant ever, but I can see an argument for it. Personally, I consider FlaSh to be the most dominant as it is honestly a complete shock that he's not going to be in the finals of the current MSL and OSL.
Oov's reign will always be questionable to me simply because he had no competition. His rampage across the professional Starcraft scene came right at the time we started seeing a major shift in the gameplay from a micro-oriented playstyle to macro-oriented playstyle and maps. Most of the generation before him were struggling to find a way to adapt to the way the game was changing and quite obviously many simply couldn't adjust. By contrast both Flash and Savior ruled with an iron fist in the face of serious competition. While their stats might not reflect such impressive streaks, the fact that they went up against extremely good opponents and completely and consistently crushed them is worlds apart from dismantling people that are barely playing the same game anymore. If we're not taking the development of the game and the strength of their competitors into account, I'd argue that Giyom in his time was far more dominant than Oov even in his prime because Giyom was just so far ahead of the game during his time that he probably WAS close to untouchable. Regrettably, this was also when Protosses were still going gas-first builds and players were forced to play in small studios wearing ridiculous space suits so it's much more difficult to take it seriously...
On January 15 2011 06:25 StylishVODs wrote: Where is Nada>Savior ? ;O
That happened in OGN Masters.
I'd like to comment that a lot of this is very silly. One of the problems with trying to compare players over different eras is that this game has changed tremendously. When I talk to people who didn't start playing until recently, they just don't have a fucking clue. Not. A. Single. Fucking. Clue. The very way that you think about this game is soooooooooo different it's not funny at all.
So when you compare players over different eras, you have to realize that you aren't comparing the same skills. You are comparing a very, very different skill set.
When you go back in time to Boxer, you're talking about an era where strategic ability mattered a whole hell of a lot more than it does today. Hence why Garimto commented in his blog during the SC2 Beta that SC2 is a harder game.
Furthermore, we talk about "the skill gap" all the time and how it's "closing," always closing. But if you compare win percentages of top players today to top players from a decade ago, the difference is incomparable -- today's top players consistently have higher win percentages. I'm not just talking about Flash or Jaedong. It's true pretty much across the board. Top 10. Top 20. Doesn't matter. Part of it is changes in league format. Part of it is how the metagame has evolved.
I commented that strategic skill is of less importance today than in the past. But metagame understanding is more important than ever before. A small change in build order. A small change in timing. Yet another subtle variation on a strategy that has been in use for years. These are the differences between winners and losers.
I could go on. And on. And on. Starcraft is a completely different game than it was ten years ago and anybody who says otherwise does. not. have. a. fucking. clue. at. all.
Trying to compare bonjwas like this is pretty fucking stupid.
Thank you, I said it was silly to compare Flash and Oov a bunch of pages back, there are surprisingly few posts which take this stance and none which say it as well as you do.
On January 15 2011 09:37 cujo2k wrote: There's a difference between most dominant and best player overall. OOV might be the most dominant since he was completely unbeatable when it mattered(finals) whereas FlaSh has lost multiple times in the finals, but is surely a better player overall, and is probably considered by most to be the greatest of all time. Shaq is the most dominant NBA player ever, but he's far from the best. Just sayin' I dono if OOV really is the most dominant ever, but I can see an argument for it. Personally, I consider FlaSh to be the most dominant as it is honestly a complete shock that he's not going to be in the finals of the current MSL and OSL.
That is just ridiculous. iloveoov often lost games that "mattered", and as a result he never reached more than one finals a season.
Before Flash's run in 2010, he was also the only terran amongst the top players for a long time. The only other terran user of notoriety during 2009 was Fantasy. Flash was the best the world had ever seen in every terran matchup at least once...evidence of this is that he destroyed all of the best players of other races; the best players ever. Without looking at the records, I would be willing to bet that well over half the wins by terrans in Proleague from 09-10 are Flash's. His slump leaves him at #2 or #3 in the world...no one currently has an answer to Flash should he get back into form.
- It looks like your bonjwa force hasn't died yet. So now, let's now go back to talking about the finals. KT has the "Ultimate Weapon", Flash. How do you rate Flash as a Terran? ▲ I had told Fantasy that "Your rival is Flash" a long time ago. In the long run, he needs to be able to beat Flash like I have beaten NaDa. Of course, I can only bring Fantasy to the front of the door. Whether or not the door opens is up to him.
i'd def like to see this guy again. watching his replays and looking at his play, is so intresting. there are great players nowadays, but i don't think many can match the pros of the past.
On January 15 2011 09:37 cujo2k wrote: There's a difference between most dominant and best player overall. OOV might be the most dominant since he was completely unbeatable when it mattered(finals) whereas FlaSh has lost multiple times in the finals, but is surely a better player overall, and is probably considered by most to be the greatest of all time. Shaq is the most dominant NBA player ever, but he's far from the best. Just sayin' I dono if OOV really is the most dominant ever, but I can see an argument for it. Personally, I consider FlaSh to be the most dominant as it is honestly a complete shock that he's not going to be in the finals of the current MSL and OSL.
Why do people punish Flash for making more finals? I just don't understand this logic.
5-2 only looks worse than 5-0 when you conveniently forget that those 2 losses are still SILVERS that OOV never had a chance to receive because he was watching the finals on the TV or from outside the booth.
I just don't understand... Basically if Flash had dropped out of those tournaments in the Ro16 or something instead of placing second people would view that as better?
Oov couldn't make it to simultaneous finals when 2 players before him did it, and 3 players have done it since. You can't honestly say he shit on EVERYONE when he failed in the OSL 3 times in a row while winning his MSL. You just can't. Flash's losses all came from great opponents in the finals, whereas Oov was beaten by weaker opponents earlier on in a tournament despite being the best. I just can't see how you can honestly debate that Oov was more dominant.
On January 15 2011 07:16 AngryJackB wrote: Both Flash and oov are pretty great terrans. oov might have more of a metagame edge then flash, but they both own.
But to be fair, that would probably be impossible to beat now when the game is so much more developed.
- It looks like your bonjwa force hasn't died yet. So now, let's now go back to talking about the finals. KT has the "Ultimate Weapon", Flash. How do you rate Flash as a Terran? ▲ I had told Fantasy that "Your rival is Flash" a long time ago. In the long run, he needs to be able to beat Flash like I have beaten NaDa. Of course, I can only bring Fantasy to the front of the door. Whether or not the door opens is up to him.
But, there's a caveat. 27 straight TvZ. Seriously. Dude didn't lose a TvZ for over a YEAR. wtf? Go look at each game. His opponents, or victims, were left at the curb in the fetal position wondering why the world had to be so cruel and cursing the day they were born.
EPT![[image loading]](http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/3249/oovscaryrecord.jpg)
NaDa 6
Stork 13 (14)
YellOw 11
.
tragically so. he could have easily coasted on his reputation the rest of his life.
![[image loading]](http://i2.tinypic.com/qoar9z.jpg)
