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On January 14 2011 09:16 BGrael wrote:
Flash will have to Beat Jaedong, Stork and Bisu in three consecutive Bo7 with one hand tied to his back before the foreign community will accept him as the greatest and most dominant player starcraft has yet seen. Let me look up some statistics and produce some nice graphics with them, and I will come right back here.
But thx to the OP for the nice Infos!
Just to be fair - this isn't about being a greater player or a better player, this is about being dominant. Oov had second best winning streak, yet it doesn't mean he was anywhere near the level of present days' competition. He might very well be #50 in all-time ranking in terms of skill.
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every1 who emphasizes the "he won when it mattered the most"-mantra to argue oov´s superior degree of dominance is a hypocrite.
its a fact that oov won all his 5 titles in seasons in which he lost before the finals in the other starleague. by claiming that "he always won when it mattered the most", u are implicitly assuming that these other 5 starleagues he didnt have an impact in didnt matter at all. how can a player be "shitting on absolutely everyone" when he gets knocked out of the tournament before the finals, and sometimes doesnt even qualify, in 50% of all starleagues he enters?
also keep in mind how much of a difference the amount of games plays. its much easier focusing on one league at a time than on 2 at once plus carrying ur worthless team through proleague, which in 2009/10 has many more games to play than back in 03/04.
at the height of his dominance, oov lost in the gilette osl against july, he lost at the you are the golf king msl to xellos, he lost at the ever osl against xellos, he lost at uzoo msl against reach, he lost at the cyon msl to savior and he didnt even qualify for one or 2 osls early in his career while he was already winning msls. all these losses were before the finals.....
imho flash is clearly the more dominant player.
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On January 14 2011 08:59 1Eris1 wrote:
Let us not forget how much oov changed the game. If he had never played, you can be guranteed flash would not be as dominant as he is, because he would not have the strategies available to him that he does now.
Of course, flash is probably the most talented player to ever play this game etc etc.
The question for this debate is, would flash have dominated as he did if he played in oovs era and vice versa? Maybe less taletned oppenents, but also less strategies and builds.
this is completely derailing and changing the debate. this is not even the same question. moreover, how influential a player is does not equate to how dominate he is. this is really a different topic completely
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Nice read but Flash is still #1 in my book.
Flash is still a star, Oov was just a comet.
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can someone give a quick rundown of Flash's accomplishments, kinda been missing from the SC scene for a year and a half and just returned 2 weeks ago. Someone needs to do a detailed write up.
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Oov was great, but Flash quite a bit ahead of him tbh. Flash has a much tighter schedule and more opponents in the upper echelon to contest him.
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I've read Oov's stats and looked at his career and it is honestly spectacular. For the time he was playing in, he was definitely the undisputed most dominant of all time.
I think when people hear "most dominant" there is a bit of "he beat everyone at the time" plus "amazing skill level" in there.
Both Flash and Oov exhibited this, and in fact Savior did too in his time and various other players at certain points of time, and they were all incredibly skilled for their periods of dominance (Flash being the only one still around).
The thing that has me (and I believe the others) put Flash ahead of Oov is the period we're in. Back when Oov was dominating the idea of macro had not been developed much at all and so he was playing versus people who were good, but could not play the game to its full capacity. However, the people that Flash is playing know far more about the full capacity of the game. Sure it may not be everything there is to know, but it's certainly a very big amount of what there is to know. That's why it's so impressive that Flash dominates the way he does, and what has me say that he is the most dominant of all time.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
I was there when Iloveoov dominated and he's the reason I quit watching starcraft.
But what Flash pulled in 2010 was beyond Iloveoov.
3 consecutive final appearances in both leagues?
Flash is most dominant of all time.
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to be fair though, who can honestly say they followed BW back in 03-04? It seems that it is much easier to follow the scene in Korea these days. Heck, YouTube didn't even exist in Oov's day.
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On January 14 2011 09:52 buickskylark wrote:
can someone give a quick rundown of Flash's accomplishments, kinda been missing from the SC scene for a year and a half and just returned 2 weeks ago. Someone needs to do a detailed write up.
starting with the beginning of the 09/10 pl season, flash went into godmode for one whole year. he finally was living up to his gigantic potential. he knocked out jd in the ever osl ro8, and went on to beat movie in the rather unspectacular finals. in the msl, he and jd met in one of the most anticipated finals of recent bw history. prior to this finals, flash has had ridiculous winstreaks in both tvt and tvz, and as i said had kicked out jd of the osl. flash definitely was the favorite in the finals, about 65:35.
but jd was very prepared and played superb on that day. in game 1 he defeated flash handily. in game 2, he was pulling way ahead again. he was on 4 bases with basically only 1 ground entrance to his base which was covered by something like 8 sunkes. in a stroke of genius, flash avoided them by doing a drop with 2 dropships with defense matrix to tank the patroling scourges. flash killed jds tech before hive kicked in and won.
in game 3 on odd eye, they were both trading armies and bases and blows. it was a fantastic game. there was an up-and-down fight of almost 5 minutes length at a crucial expo of jd. it looked like jd had repelled it but flash had massive production going on, although he was on only 2 running bases. but he was gathering troops for a new attack at jds key expo. then baaaaaaaaam - black screen. a power outage in the whole mbc studio. after almost an hour of waiting time, the referees decided to award the game to jd. this caused flashs dad to go bezerk mode verbally attack the referees and officials. in game 4 flash was mentally out of it and lost early on without much resistance.
in proleague and winnersleague, he was still having a fantastic season with a close to 90% winrate. he made it to dual finals in the following sl season aswell, facing effort in the osl and jd again in the msl. jd had dropped out of the osl in the first round against baby btw.
the osl finals was held first. it was quite epic: the korean air osl finals was held at the airplane hangar of korean air, with an extremely large audience. by far the biggest crowd in recent times, some 10-20 thousand guys. flash was destroying a helpless effort in the first 2 games. in games 3 and 4, flash went for very risky, funky early aggression builds which both failed. in the final game effort overran flash with a high econ speedling all-in which flash failed to defend against. effort had came back 3-2 after being down 0-2....
it must be noted though that effort was flashs main tvz practice partner at that time (as kts zergs were way too bad to emulate jds play and thus help flash prepare for him). therefore effort knew flashs thought-process and timings in and out.
some few days later, flash faced jd in the msl finals and this time was the underdog. noone could believe his eyes when flash then proceeded to 3-0 a helpless jd.
in the 5th round of proleague flash had a ridiculous streak of losses in acematches, but as his team had a huge lead going into R5, they comfortably secured the first place anyway. in the proleague finals, KT finally defeated their old rivals SKT, with flash dealing the finishing blow in the 6th game. kt finally had taken revenge on skt, spearheaded by flash.
in this starleague season, flash made the 3rd consecutive dual finals, so he was in all 6 finals of the season. he was facing jd in both of them. in the msl finals, which took place first, flash was destroying jd in the first 2 sets. it was reminiscent of the rape from the previous msl finals. but then in the 3rd game, jd came back and defeated flash in a nice and tense game. in the 4th game, flash hit a bad liftoff timing of his CC which was part of his wall-in, which jd used to runby speedlings into gg. suddenly it was reminiscent of flashs crumble in the korean air finals..... in the 5th set though, flash went for a very early ebay build which made his m&m trade very favourable against jds muta harass. in the end, flash hit a perfect timing to destroy jds expos and won the series.
2 weeks later, they met again in shanghai in the korean air 2 osl finals in front of the oriental pearl tower. flash won game 1. in game 2 jd went for a 4pool. after some ridiculous fights and after it looked like flash might have defended it, jd prevailed. in the 3rd game, jd went for a 4pool again but this time flash defended against it perfectly. flash was up 2-1, but the 4th game was played on a map which was considered extremely Z favoured. flash went for an extremely strange 7rax build which dealt great damage to jd. jd managed to stay in the game though and tried a huge doomdrop into flashs main. but flash defended perfectly and then went on to stomp jd.
some weeks later, jd defeated flash in the finals of the korean wcg selection tournament, so they both went on to represent korea at the grand finals of the wcg tour. there they met in the finals again. flash had defeated jd with some complicated mindgames in the previous starleague finals and was clearly ahead in the psychological warfare going into this finals, but this time they both decided to go for standard macro builds in all 3 games. flash won 2-1 after 3 really great games. it was by far the best finals between the 2 of them during that year, and the only one to truely live up to the hype of their heated rivalry, the leessang rok. game 2 on tau cross from that wcg series is the game of the year imho and by far the best game flash and jd have played against each other that year. check it out if u want to see their rivalry at its best.
to sum it up: over the course of one season, flash has made
- 6 out of 6 starleague finals
- 3 consecutive dual final appearances
- won 4 (out of 6) golds
- led his team to the proleague title they had been waiting for for sooooo long
- won the wcg
- defeated jd in bo5s three times; in a row btw. prior to that season, jd had only lost 3 bo5s during his whole career.... flash changed that to 6 bo5s in only 4 months
- set an elo peak record of 2443, while the second best, held by jd, is at 2378 or something like that. his elo was above 2350 for pretty much all the season
- had a winrate of about 85% in official matches
basically, he was 2 golds away from playing the 100% perfect season, and one of his only 2 lost titles of that season is at least controversial because of the power outage incident.
a sidenote on the level of dominance both flash and jd exerted during this year: both have only lost one series against some other player (flash to effort, jd to baby), besides that, they only eliminated each other from the starleagues.
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Dominance Level 0: (3+ finals within a year, or 2+ finals within a year, winning 1+)
 YellOw,  Reach, ChoJJa, Kingdom, Stork
Dominance Level 1: (3+ finals within a year, winning 2+)
Nal_rA, July, Bisu, Jaedong
Dominance Level 2: (4+ finals within a year, winning 3+)
 BoxeR, NaDa, iloveoov, sAviOr
Dominance Level 3: (6+ finals within a year, winning 4+)
Flash
Just gonna post this in every thread about dominance.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
It was easy to follow.
Live report threads existed in 2001.
There was always Korean vods off some Korean site. It just took forever to load.
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On January 14 2011 10:27 jalstar wrote:
Just gonna post this in every thread about dominance.
Seems like an awfully subjective way of organizing things....I could just as easily make Savior or Oov look as good.
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On January 14 2011 08:51 Roffles wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 08:21 StylishVODs wrote:On January 14 2011 08:09 FireBlast! wrote:
Imagine a player coming out of nowhere right now, obliterating Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu all into a slump.
If he could just get into 1 finals at a time he still wouldn't be as dominating as Flash's run. There wasn't a finals in 2010 where Flash wasn't the opponent. Thats how dominating he was. This while he dominated the proleague. I don't see how oov can beat that... If you had a finals between Oov and anyone else, I'd pick Oov simply cause that guy was a champ when it mattered. If you had a finals between Flash and anyone else, there are times where I'd actually pick other players. Like if Flash played Jaedong on better maps, I'd pick JD to win over Flash. But back in those days, there was absolutely 0 doubt in anyone's mind that iloveoov was going to win the finals once he got there. Because he was that good.
Sorry, but that assumes oov would make it to the finals in the first place.
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On January 14 2011 10:35 dras wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 10:27 jalstar wrote:
Just gonna post this in every thread about dominance. Seems like an awfully subjective way of organizing things....I could just as easily make Savior or Oov look as good.
How? They objectively weren't as good.
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On January 14 2011 10:27 jalstar wrote:Dominance Level 0: (3+ finals within a year, or 2+ finals within a year, winning 1+) YellOw, Reach, ChoJJa, Kingdom, StorkDominance Level 1: (3+ finals within a year, winning 2+) Nal_rA, July, Bisu, Jaedong Dominance Level 2: (4+ finals within a year, winning 3+) BoxeR, NaDa, iloveoov, sAviOr Dominance Level 3: (6+ finals within a year, winning 4+) FlashJust gonna post this in every thread about dominance.
im surprised by how accurately this reflects my personal ranking of dominance. oO
only nal_ra is rather one category down in my books. but other than that i completely agree with it.
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On January 14 2011 10:27 Black Gun wrote:
some weeks later, jd defeated flash in the finals of the korean wcg selection tournament, so they both went on to represent korea at the grand finals of the wcg tour. there they met in the finals again. flash had defeated jd with some complicated mindgames in the previous starleague finals and was clearly ahead in the psychological warfare going into this finals, but this time they both decided to go for standard macro builds in all 3 games. flash won 2-1 after 3 really great games. it was by far the best finals between the 2 of them during that year, and the only one to truely live up to the hype of their heated rivalry, the leessang rok. game 2 on tau cross from that wcg series is the game of the year imho and by far the best game flash and jd have played against each other that year. check it out if u want to see their rivalry at its best.
It wasn't the final. It was the semi. Flash won the final vs Kal.
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On January 14 2011 08:37 Musou wrote:
The entire reason Flash dominates against so-called "mediocre" players is precisely because he exists. The thing is, there are no other Starleague winners for Flash to dominate because Flash and Jaedong have won all of them since he appeared on the scene.
Remember when jaedong was #1? Fantasy, leta, jangbi, much, hwasin, mind, sea, calm, luxury were all doing good. Guess who wasn't winning starleagues? Flash.
But then all those players pretty much vanished for 2 years. It was then that Flash started slapping people around. Eventually he figured JD out and that was it.
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On January 14 2011 10:39 Boblion wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 10:27 Black Gun wrote:
some weeks later, jd defeated flash in the finals of the korean wcg selection tournament, so they both went on to represent korea at the grand finals of the wcg tour. there they met in the finals again. flash had defeated jd with some complicated mindgames in the previous starleague finals and was clearly ahead in the psychological warfare going into this finals, but this time they both decided to go for standard macro builds in all 3 games. flash won 2-1 after 3 really great games. it was by far the best finals between the 2 of them during that year, and the only one to truely live up to the hype of their heated rivalry, the leessang rok. game 2 on tau cross from that wcg series is the game of the year imho and by far the best game flash and jd have played against each other that year. check it out if u want to see their rivalry at its best.
It wasn't the final. It was the semi. Flash won the final vs Kal.
really? oO
well, it was the de facto finals, as kal has been flash´s and jaedong´s bitch forever. he has an atrocious winrate against both of them...
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51489 Posts
On January 14 2011 10:23 dras wrote:
to be fair though, who can honestly say they followed BW back in 03-04? It seems that it is much easier to follow the scene in Korea these days. Heck, YouTube didn't even exist in Oov's day.
i did, and i will comfortably say that flash > oov.
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EPT
