EPT
sAviOr really is. He began to throw matches away at his peak.iloveoov...most dominant of all time? - Page 4
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mmdmmd
722 Posts
sAviOr really is. He began to throw matches away at his peak. | ||
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doothegee
Korea (South)3011 Posts
On January 14 2011 04:40 mmdmmd wrote: We will never know how dominant sAviOr really is. He began to throw matches away at his peak.No. Savior only started his match-fixing at around late 2009, at which point he sucked anyway. Besides, he himself wasn't involved in too many fixed matches himself (hitting his own mutas vs hyvaa aside), he was mainly a broker for other players like Hwasin, etc. Not saying that his actions were any less wrong, but still. | ||
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lastmotion
368 Posts
On January 14 2011 03:05 doothegee wrote:  iloveoov was terran, which is imbasome other zerg played on shit maps -- maps made specifically to bring him down -- and was more dominant at ZvP than oov was at TvZ.- from an ex-CJ fanboy thank you. this is exactly what i was thinking. fixed. this applies perfectly to Flash / Jaedong comparison too. | ||
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r33k
Italy3402 Posts
On January 14 2011 02:11 Waxangel wrote: A big part of reason why old school fans consider iloveoov's run the most dominant of all time is content of his games and the quality of his opposition. He beat a lot of very good players, and he made them look seriously bad. It should also be said that his games were some of the most boring of all time, his playstyle made him look dominant simply because most people weren't able to watch his games and stay awake, which led people to just watch his stats after the games. -.- | ||
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wxwx
527 Posts
I love these well-written articles about the rich BW history. I have never touched BW but for some reason I appreciate the BW pros so much more their sc2 counterparts. I hope the sc2 scene grows into something where history is made and stories are told. | ||
IntoTheWow
is awesome32277 Posts
On January 14 2011 02:28 maybenexttime wrote: Well, Flash, too, beat an astounding number of great players. Remember how he 3-0'ed Stork? He made Jaedong look really bad in couple finals, even though the latter was significantly better than other players at that time. Yeah but you could find people who would give Flash a run for his money. EffOrt ZvT, Jaedong ZvT, Fantasy/sKyHigh TvT, etc. I remember reading the livereport threads/chatting on irc during oov's peak and we would laugh at how one sided some games where against very good players. You can post impressive numbers, but dominance isn't just about results, is how he achieved those results. I remember oov was for example amazing against cheese cause a lot of players would try ridiculous type of cheese against him to stop him going into macro mode. And not just "bad" players. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
On January 14 2011 05:00 r33k wrote: It should also be said that his games were some of the most boring of all time, his playstyle made him look dominant simply because most people weren't able to watch his games and stay awake, which led people to just watch his stats after the games. -.- This is completely irrelevant. On January 14 2011 04:56 lastmotion wrote: thank you. this is exactly what i was thinking. fixed. this applies perfectly to Flash / Jaedong comparison too. That's a really convenient way to argue, isn't it? ''Terran is imba!'', ''Maps are imba!''. I'm getting pretty sick of it. -__- | ||
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ii.blitzkrieg
Canada1122 Posts
On January 14 2011 02:11 Waxangel wrote: A big part of reason why old school fans consider iloveoov's run the most dominant of all time is content of his games and the quality of his opposition. He beat a lot of very good players, and he made them look seriously bad. This. Statistically he had the most dominant run pre flash I'm pretty sure, but he totally shit on a lot of the best players of the time. The games that stick out in my mind the most are mass ghost vs jju and the pure wraith vs goodfriend. | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32277 Posts
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
On January 14 2011 05:19 IntoTheWow wrote: The savior part is true though. Look at the map stats and savior stats on that map :p And Flash dominated Tosses on Medusa and Katrina. | ||
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Kusimuumi
Finland99 Posts
The complete dominance he had over his opponents was remarkable. No other player has been as succesful in completely immersing into the game, treating it almost like a mechanical extension of one's mind. Look at his games, he is in complete control if his flow doesn't get disturbed by early mechanics. His ability to keep the game intact, having all bases covered - to extinguish his opponents by depraving them of cost-effective choices yields an astonished gasp from an awed observer. Other players handle this differently and have their own jaw-dropping qualities. But given the wording of the subject: yes. Dominant; Alpha Gorilla. | ||
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oBlade
United States5831 Posts
On January 14 2011 04:48 doothegee wrote: No. Savior only started his match-fixing at around late 2009, at which point he sucked anyway. I protest to this. He surely fucked up in the match-fixing, but I think of him sort of like the Bobby Fischer of SC. On January 14 2011 02:41 dras wrote: Are you trying to say luck and chance has more to do with winning than skill and ability? At the end of the day, we can say whatever we want, but 5-0 is still 5-0, and he won his titles faster than any other player. No. I mean that we ought never to ignore the fact that everybody happens to lose games. The results of one day's play shouldn't be weighted disproportionately. Between Trigem MSL and EVER OSL, about a year, iloveoov earned 4 of his titles. He was at 4 finals total. In 2010, Flash was at six finals (Edit: to reiterate, he was at *all* finals). He earned 4 titles. It is not meaningful to say that Flash was less dominant because he lost to Effort when in fact he did more than iloveoov by this metric. iloveoov did win five titles, but he only made it to five finals. Flash has been to seven and he has just as many titles as iloveoov. The fact that Flash isn't undefeated in finals is not a strike against him. He has 5 golds. iloveoov has 5 golds. It's not that Flash wasn't good enough to 7-0 his finals, so he's not as dominant as iloveoov. It's that iloveoov didn't make it to the 2 extra finals that Flash has so far. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=78884 This TLFE explains H.O.T-Forever's career. They both became coaches. I was drawing a parallel. | ||
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hacklebeast
United States5090 Posts
Flash is the best of all time, in a best of 15 (just going for a large sample size) Flash will beat any player in their prime. But the question was who was most dominant. Flash has played harder competition, and that is an argument that he is not the most dominant. Dominance= skill of best - skill of second best Boxer had yellow, and flash had jaedong. Jaedong fucks up flash in a bunch of comparisons. Flash had to do far more than savior or oov or boxer to become bonjwa, because bonjwa has to do with dominance, and not just results. Savior is probably second for most dominant, but he runs into the problem of less accomplished than oov, and if we line up the matchups, oov v z > savior v p, and saviors other mu's weren’t that impressive (comparatively obviously. They were damn good, but not exactly bonjwa level on their own). Nada's greatness was broken up into two parts, which detracts from the dominance. Less seriously, look at the nick names. “the emperor” is a beacon for his people, a position of dignity and class. “genius terran” and “the maestro” focus on the beauty and artistry of their play. “ultimate weapon” is pretty dominant, but it still has the sense of “genius terran” as slightly artsy. But oov is the “Cheater terran” and “the bus driver”. He is so good that the game is not able to support his awesome skill. And as for “bus driver”… it’s a good story, and I don’t want to ruin it for someone by telling it wrong, but if that doesn’t scream “dominance,” I don’t know what does. I almost feel that whenever we compare greats of the game, we need to create clearly defined categories to individually argue over. The "most dominant" is not necessarily "the greatest" or "the best" or "the most influential to the game" or "the most popular" or "most influential to strategy" or “most entertaining” or whatever adjectives you are thinking of right now. Thank you very much for the ver article, I have a feeling I will thoroughly entertaining. I had read the I love victory one, and it is my second favorite one. (with top honors going to the yellow one. I’m patiently waiting for yellow to make a Ro36 or something to have an excuse to bump that amazing piece of work. I don’t even know if it is bumpable, but I’m gonna try… eventually) | ||
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gen.Sun
United States539 Posts
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jpak
United States5045 Posts
On January 14 2011 03:47 J1.au wrote: No he isn't. iloveoov did not even get into dual finals once. For every final that iloveoov played he had already dropped out in the opposing league. Nada made dual finals and won. Flash made dual finals and won. It's not impossible, Nada and Flash proved it. So why couldn't iloveoov do it?Savior didn't even make it into the OSL until Shinhan OSL Season 3, which officially began on December 20th, 2006. With the dominance he had in the MSL, you'd think he'd make it into the OSL a lot earlier than that. As we all know, he fulfilled the royal road in that OSL and won. He was going for dual finals, but we all know what happened on that day of revolution (March 3). | ||
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integral
United States3156 Posts
This isn't even a question, you have to use a pretty squirrely definition of dominance to come to any different conclusion. Oov never lost a finals, but he never had to prepare for more than one at a time because oov always lost in the earlier rounds of one tournament. More dominant than flash, get the fuck out of here. | ||
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hacklebeast
United States5090 Posts
On January 14 2011 06:12 integral wrote: I honestly can't believe people think oov was more dominant. ELO peak almost 75 higher than anyone ever, sustained ELO consistently above oov's peak (still is right now), dual finals three times in a row, and on and on. People saying that oov made good players look terrible is a joke, flash makes players twice as skilled as anyone oov ever played look like B-team scrubs. Flash has not only dominated the hardest anyone ever has, he's done it against by far the most skilled competition in the most difficult era of Brood War. This isn't even a question, you have to use a pretty squirrely definition of dominance to come to any different conclusion. Oov never lost a finals, but he never had to prepare for more than one at a time because oov always lost in the earlier rounds of one tournament. More dominant than flash, get the fuck out of here. Well look at it this way, who is flash's main competitor? Jaedong, obviously. As much as flash fans would not like to admit it, or point at his 3-1 finals record, he is still 20-19 vs jaedong Who is/was oov's main competitor? Nada? July? There just wasn't anyone close to him in his prime. You would have to be delusional to say that Jaedong wasn't even close to Flash. | ||
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
On January 14 2011 06:28 hacklebeast wrote: Well look at it this way, who is flash's main competitor? Jaedong, obviously. As much as flash fans would not like to admit it, or point at his 3-1 finals record, he is still 20-19 vs jaedong Who is/was oov's main competitor? Nada? July? There just wasn't anyone close to him in his prime. You would have to be delusional to say that Jaedong wasn't even close to Flash. This argument goes both ways - you can say something along the lines that "oov didn't really have anyone up to his level at his reign of play - he was just playing and evolving the game at the time, and set a new standard for high level play", while for flash you can argue "Flash, however, DID have a major competitor at his level, and Flash STILL managed to take down the second best player of all time 3 out of 4 times". I think it really boils down to this - It's pretty much impossible to compare the dominant reigns of both players, as maps, styles of plays, overall skill level of play, quality of opponents differed so greatly that it null in voids the need for comparison. Rather, they should just both be appreciated for two of the greatest dominant reigns of all time. | ||
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dras
Kazakhstan376 Posts
On January 14 2011 05:30 oBlade wrote: I protest to this. He surely fucked up in the match-fixing, but I think of him sort of like the Bobby Fischer of SC. /cry savior was such a waste of talent  tragically so. he could have easily coasted on his reputation the rest of his life. | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
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