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On October 26 2010 09:59 Snuggles wrote:
Now don't get me wrong, I haven't typed out all there is to cover all the possible holes in my post. Typing "all the Terrans" was wrong, and I'm man enough to apologize for that.
I honestly feel bad for players who play Terran, no sarcasm at all. Because I know for a fact there are a lot of fantastic Terran players out there, and they will be tainted by the fact that most Terran players were very unsympathetic to Zerg players, while they acknowledged the issues in the ZvT Match-Up and openly discussed reasonable solutions to it.
However, because of people like Avilo, the other 60%, Terran will be branded as a race that is played by people who are hypocrites and so on. I mean seriously after reading that topic that Avilo made before the patch, I can only /facepalm. Hard evidence unrefutable right there.
There are quite a few big name Terrans who were calling for a nerf on TvZ early game. Morrow was one of them. I could not remember the rest.
Anyway, it puzzles me when most people still think the the +1 range on roaches is what Terran complains about. Z players say: "Stop qqing how could +1 range break a match up????" I could not care less if the roach have +1 range I just trashed 3 Zerg players in a row who think that now roach is their ultimate weapon.
The reason why TvZ is hard is because Zerg late game has ALWAYS been better. Z was losing prepatch because they could not defend early attacks to get to the point that they can win. Now that weakness has been fixed and they are raping Terrans left and right. It is as simple as that.
I agree with the patch because the game is only balance when both races has equal chance at every stage of the game. One race is good early and the other is good late game is not balance.
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On October 26 2010 08:51 frogmelter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 08:40 Tazza wrote:On October 26 2010 05:57 frogmelter wrote:On October 26 2010 05:48 Tazza wrote:On October 26 2010 05:27 frogmelter wrote:On October 26 2010 05:18 Tazza wrote:On October 26 2010 05:11 frogmelter wrote:On October 26 2010 05:06 Tazza wrote:On October 26 2010 04:56 frogmelter wrote:Well as of right now, I agree that zerg has a massive advantage over Terran. Roaches can block any harassment that you do and if don't pressure zerg, they have a million and a half more drones than you do. Zerg lategame is really difficult to deal with as Terran. Zerg lategame with zerg having an economic advantage is even more difficult. You have to rely on the zerg making some crazy errors. Since these people are pros, it's unlikely that such an error would occur. So yes, I second the thought that Zerg is going to win the GSLs quite handily UNLESS another patch comes. On October 26 2010 04:56 Tazza wrote:
Zergs had to deal with much worse for 3 months. Stop complaining. The game is a lot more balanced than before the patch. Hellions are still very very strong units in early game, and its still hard for zergs to deal with multipronged drops. And marauders are still really good, and auto repair with thors is still deadly. And you guys still have the most imba mu in the game right now in tvp, where t holds a strong hand. Its been like what, a week since the new patch? We had to deal with it for 3 months, with real hardships, you're just complaining that you don't get free wins from zerg anymore You are kidding me. TvP is not Terran favored. It's true that Terran early game is stronger than Protoss early game, but with the depot before rax junk it's not as big of an advantage. Protoss late game totally trashes Terran. Think about it this way. For Terran, you start out with marines, marauders, medivacs, and maybe ghosts and maybe vikings. When you end, you end with the same exact units. Except Protoss late game can spam 75 energy temps and Colossi that deal over a hundred damage per shot. And just because zerg was underpowered at a point does not make for a good argument that zerg should be overpowered for a time period 'to make up for it'. The supply before rax barely affects the tvp matchup at all. No one used reapers against protoss, and not many people did a bbs against terran. And if you can start out with so many units, you can harass. That's what terran is in sc2, its about harass. No other race can get t3 units as fast as you. You can get thors superfast, and even bcs really fast, but zerg and protoss take very long to get those units. And if you allow protoss to get a lot of temps and colossi, thats your fault. Temps and colossi require a crapload of gas, and therefore you need a lot of expansions. You don't let a toss do that, just like how a toss doesn't allow zergs to macro up like that in the pvz matchup I never liked the reasoning "don't let it get up to that point". With the 1 gate FE pretty much safe and standard, 2 base Protoss can go colossus into templar pretty easily while taking a third. 3 bases, or even 2, is enough for a critical mass of colossus or HT. My point wasn't "don't let it get up to that point" My point was, you don't let a toss to expand freely. If he's stuck on 2 bases for a while, he will not have enough gas to constantly pump out templars and collossi, while getting the upgrades for them. And its not easy for toss to get extra bases. Their army is pretty immobile, and you can take the expos out with a few multipronged attacks. Stimmed marauders kill buildings super fast, and are really great units against protoss gateway units. And to the "don't let it get up to that point" argument, a lot of starcraft is about that. In pvz, thats what its all about, the toss can't let the zerg be on 5-6 fully saturated bases, because they know they'll be overrrun. So toss has to make good timing attacks to stop this. This doesn't stop pvz from being imba, it is one of the most balance mus in the game, and even slightly favors protoss. Even in BW, a lot of tvz was about not letting zerg get that 4th gas, and pushing out with 1 vessel, 3 tanks, and mnm to stop the zerg. Which is why TvP is balanced at most. I still don't see how T>>>P in TvP. And it really depends on the positions. I'll agree that TvP on close positions is a fair bit easier, but far positions let the protoss expand a lot more freely. It's not really about 'letting' the protoss expand freely. Obviously Terran should have units at the expansions constantly scouting. Protoss just needs to expand when there's a good enough timing for it [after an army trade or something of that sort]. Well you can't say tvp is balanced because zvp is balanced because they both require a race to "not let it get to the point" And I still believe it is imba, because tvp was imba before the patches, and the patches have done absolutely nothing, except for the tank nerf, but even then, tanks weren't used much in tvp, as they were hardcountered by immortals, and could be lifted up by phoenix, etc. And you cannot say that the depot before barracks or the reaper nerf affected tvp in any way because no one bunker rushed a toss, or used reapers against them. And marauders are just so good, for so little cost On October 26 2010 05:38 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 26 2010 05:06 Tazza wrote:
The supply before rax barely affects the tvp matchup at all. No one used reapers against protoss, and not many people did a bbs against terran. And if you can start out with so many units, you can harass. That's what terran is in sc2, its about harass. No other race can get t3 units as fast as you. You can get thors superfast, and even bcs really fast, but zerg and protoss take very long to get those units. And if you allow protoss to get a lot of temps and colossi, thats your fault. Temps and colossi require a crapload of gas, and therefore you need a lot of expansions. You don't let a toss do that, just like how a toss doesn't allow zergs to macro up like that in the pvz matchup I actually practiced a 2rax reaper into exp opening for WEEKS before the patch, and it was reallyllylyl strong... too bad I don't have it anymore eh ? - o-;;Saying you don't let a Protoss take a third is silly. You're conceding the point that Terran late game is horrible and we have to play aggressive as hell and/or get lucky early-midgame (hellion drops or lucky breaks/catching a bad protoss off guard with cloak banshee vs no robo). And since Protoss is on the defensive, if they don't screw up how can Terran win? Because it's really on the Protoss to play correct and just survive the aggression until their gas kicks in and they reach late game. Hmmmmmm no one used reapers? Hmmmm.......... And I never said "Well you can't say tvp is balanced because zvp is balanced because they both require a race to "not let it get to the point"" Could you please link me to where I stated that? My "Which is why TvP is balanced at most." statement was NOT a response to your second paragraph about BW. You said "which is why tvp is balanced at most" What were you referring to then? And my second paragraph was not entirely about bw. You have still not made a single valid point that would say that tvp is now a balanced matchup. Listen, there were about 100 victories by terran in all tournaments so far, only about 20 wins for zerg, and a few more wins for protoss. There were 4 out of 8 terrans in quarterfinals of gsl, 3 out of 4 in semifinals, without a single protoss. Now tell me that tvp wasn 't balanced before. If it was, there would have been a fairly somilar number of toss and terrans, but terrans dominated the entire game, meaning they had advantages against both races. Now with the patches, zvt might be better balanced, but there really isn't a single nerf/buff for terran or protoss that changed how the matchup is played. And reapers were never used in tvp, so don't even go there. Kinda like hydras against terran Talk to QXC about reapers vs Protoss. Yes they were used. He loves Reapers vs Protoss. KawaiiRice said he had a 2 rax reaper build vs Protoss. Yes, they were not common, but they worked. And I said it's balanced AT MOST. Meaning that I believe it to be Protoss favored, but I'm willing to consider it balanced as an argument. Saying Terran is favored in TvP is not an argument that I'm really going to take seriously. Blizzard's statistics say that TvP is Protoss favored. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163596http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163764¤tpage=AllThis will be my last post on TvP in this thread. Any more would be considered derailing the topic. PM me if you wish to discuss.
My point is that reapers aren't common units, they are only made in special cases, and most likely cheese. Of course these units get used sometimes. Hell, even scouts were used a few times in pro games. And Blizzard stats don't really mean shit. The stats that matter are the amount of terrans winning, and competing in tournaments last year, meaning terran had the advantage. Now, the patches have helped the zvt mu, but the pvt mu is still terran favored, as there was not a patch that really did anything to the matchup. And those aren't stats at ALL. I don't see any numbers anywhere, and blizz only does stats for diamond leagues, and etc, not pros, which is what really matters, because pros can defend a 4gate
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On October 26 2010 12:15 Tazza wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 08:51 frogmelter wrote:On October 26 2010 08:40 Tazza wrote:On October 26 2010 05:57 frogmelter wrote:On October 26 2010 05:48 Tazza wrote:On October 26 2010 05:27 frogmelter wrote:On October 26 2010 05:18 Tazza wrote:On October 26 2010 05:11 frogmelter wrote:On October 26 2010 05:06 Tazza wrote:On October 26 2010 04:56 frogmelter wrote:
Well as of right now, I agree that zerg has a massive advantage over Terran.
Roaches can block any harassment that you do and if don't pressure zerg, they have a million and a half more drones than you do.
Zerg lategame is really difficult to deal with as Terran. Zerg lategame with zerg having an economic advantage is even more difficult. You have to rely on the zerg making some crazy errors. Since these people are pros, it's unlikely that such an error would occur.
So yes, I second the thought that Zerg is going to win the GSLs quite handily UNLESS another patch comes.
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You are kidding me. TvP is not Terran favored. It's true that Terran early game is stronger than Protoss early game, but with the depot before rax junk it's not as big of an advantage. Protoss late game totally trashes Terran.
Think about it this way. For Terran, you start out with marines, marauders, medivacs, and maybe ghosts and maybe vikings. When you end, you end with the same exact units.
Except Protoss late game can spam 75 energy temps and Colossi that deal over a hundred damage per shot.
And just because zerg was underpowered at a point does not make for a good argument that zerg should be overpowered for a time period 'to make up for it'. The supply before rax barely affects the tvp matchup at all. No one used reapers against protoss, and not many people did a bbs against terran. And if you can start out with so many units, you can harass. That's what terran is in sc2, its about harass. No other race can get t3 units as fast as you. You can get thors superfast, and even bcs really fast, but zerg and protoss take very long to get those units. And if you allow protoss to get a lot of temps and colossi, thats your fault. Temps and colossi require a crapload of gas, and therefore you need a lot of expansions. You don't let a toss do that, just like how a toss doesn't allow zergs to macro up like that in the pvz matchup I never liked the reasoning "don't let it get up to that point". With the 1 gate FE pretty much safe and standard, 2 base Protoss can go colossus into templar pretty easily while taking a third. 3 bases, or even 2, is enough for a critical mass of colossus or HT. My point wasn't "don't let it get up to that point" My point was, you don't let a toss to expand freely. If he's stuck on 2 bases for a while, he will not have enough gas to constantly pump out templars and collossi, while getting the upgrades for them. And its not easy for toss to get extra bases. Their army is pretty immobile, and you can take the expos out with a few multipronged attacks. Stimmed marauders kill buildings super fast, and are really great units against protoss gateway units. And to the "don't let it get up to that point" argument, a lot of starcraft is about that. In pvz, thats what its all about, the toss can't let the zerg be on 5-6 fully saturated bases, because they know they'll be overrrun. So toss has to make good timing attacks to stop this. This doesn't stop pvz from being imba, it is one of the most balance mus in the game, and even slightly favors protoss. Even in BW, a lot of tvz was about not letting zerg get that 4th gas, and pushing out with 1 vessel, 3 tanks, and mnm to stop the zerg. Which is why TvP is balanced at most. I still don't see how T>>>P in TvP. And it really depends on the positions. I'll agree that TvP on close positions is a fair bit easier, but far positions let the protoss expand a lot more freely. It's not really about 'letting' the protoss expand freely. Obviously Terran should have units at the expansions constantly scouting. Protoss just needs to expand when there's a good enough timing for it [after an army trade or something of that sort]. Well you can't say tvp is balanced because zvp is balanced because they both require a race to "not let it get to the point" And I still believe it is imba, because tvp was imba before the patches, and the patches have done absolutely nothing, except for the tank nerf, but even then, tanks weren't used much in tvp, as they were hardcountered by immortals, and could be lifted up by phoenix, etc. And you cannot say that the depot before barracks or the reaper nerf affected tvp in any way because no one bunker rushed a toss, or used reapers against them. And marauders are just so good, for so little cost On October 26 2010 05:38 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 26 2010 05:06 Tazza wrote:
The supply before rax barely affects the tvp matchup at all. No one used reapers against protoss, and not many people did a bbs against terran. And if you can start out with so many units, you can harass. That's what terran is in sc2, its about harass. No other race can get t3 units as fast as you. You can get thors superfast, and even bcs really fast, but zerg and protoss take very long to get those units. And if you allow protoss to get a lot of temps and colossi, thats your fault. Temps and colossi require a crapload of gas, and therefore you need a lot of expansions. You don't let a toss do that, just like how a toss doesn't allow zergs to macro up like that in the pvz matchup I actually practiced a 2rax reaper into exp opening for WEEKS before the patch, and it was reallyllylyl strong... too bad I don't have it anymore eh ? - o-;;Saying you don't let a Protoss take a third is silly. You're conceding the point that Terran late game is horrible and we have to play aggressive as hell and/or get lucky early-midgame (hellion drops or lucky breaks/catching a bad protoss off guard with cloak banshee vs no robo). And since Protoss is on the defensive, if they don't screw up how can Terran win? Because it's really on the Protoss to play correct and just survive the aggression until their gas kicks in and they reach late game. Hmmmmmm no one used reapers? Hmmmm.......... And I never said "Well you can't say tvp is balanced because zvp is balanced because they both require a race to "not let it get to the point"" Could you please link me to where I stated that? My "Which is why TvP is balanced at most." statement was NOT a response to your second paragraph about BW. You said "which is why tvp is balanced at most" What were you referring to then? And my second paragraph was not entirely about bw. You have still not made a single valid point that would say that tvp is now a balanced matchup. Listen, there were about 100 victories by terran in all tournaments so far, only about 20 wins for zerg, and a few more wins for protoss. There were 4 out of 8 terrans in quarterfinals of gsl, 3 out of 4 in semifinals, without a single protoss. Now tell me that tvp wasn 't balanced before. If it was, there would have been a fairly somilar number of toss and terrans, but terrans dominated the entire game, meaning they had advantages against both races. Now with the patches, zvt might be better balanced, but there really isn't a single nerf/buff for terran or protoss that changed how the matchup is played. And reapers were never used in tvp, so don't even go there. Kinda like hydras against terran Talk to QXC about reapers vs Protoss. Yes they were used. He loves Reapers vs Protoss. KawaiiRice said he had a 2 rax reaper build vs Protoss. Yes, they were not common, but they worked. And I said it's balanced AT MOST. Meaning that I believe it to be Protoss favored, but I'm willing to consider it balanced as an argument. Saying Terran is favored in TvP is not an argument that I'm really going to take seriously. Blizzard's statistics say that TvP is Protoss favored. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163596http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163764¤tpage=AllThis will be my last post on TvP in this thread. Any more would be considered derailing the topic. PM me if you wish to discuss. My point is that reapers aren't common units, they are only made in special cases, and most likely cheese. Of course these units get used sometimes. Hell, even scouts were used a few times in pro games. And Blizzard stats don't really mean shit. The stats that matter are the amount of terrans winning, and competing in tournaments last year, meaning terran had the advantage. Now, the patches have helped the zvt mu, but the pvt mu is still terran favored, as there was not a patch that really did anything to the matchup. And those aren't stats at ALL. I don't see any numbers anywhere, and blizz only does stats for diamond leagues, and etc, not pros, which is what really matters, because pros can defend a 4gate
I'm amazed. I thought I would be leaving this thread but this post is just.....
2 rax reaper FE is not a cheese. It's a fast expand.
Special cases? There are builds centered around reapers. They're good.
Scouts were used a BM. Reapers can be used to secure an expansion. Your point is not valid at all.
How do you know blizzard stats don't mean anything? Just because they contradict what you believe, they're not valid? And the ones that support what you say matter all the sudden? LoL. Sounds like some nice bias.
And back to broodwar. The 'balanced' game. there have been TONS of seasons where one race was represented more. Go to the BW forums and cry imbalance.
Not to mention you know blizzard doesn't release numbers
You know that David Kim [dayvie]is pro level, and he says P>>>T in TvP. And he plays random, both Terran and Protoss. He knows both sides.
Also, TvP was Protoss favored BEFORE the patch. The patch just made it even worse.
You can continue to argue, but the fact is
Reaper openings ARE viable. I have won with them. Just because you haven't played against such a build or done one does NOT mean they are not viable. KawaiiRice has won with them. QXC has won with them. Why are you ignoring all evidence that points to reapers being viable instead of address them? It's starting to smell like a troll...
Please read the ENTIRE thread :
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163596¤tpage=All
If you post something again that was already covered in there... =_=
A lot of players better than both you and I are saying that Protoss >>> Terran in TvP. Arguing with people with more experience is just stupid, especially when you're using faulty arguments.
Saying that the pro level matters is correct. Why don't you respond to the only pro gamer in this thread?
On October 26 2010 05:38 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 05:06 Tazza wrote:
The supply before rax barely affects the tvp matchup at all. No one used reapers against protoss, and not many people did a bbs against terran. And if you can start out with so many units, you can harass. That's what terran is in sc2, its about harass. No other race can get t3 units as fast as you. You can get thors superfast, and even bcs really fast, but zerg and protoss take very long to get those units. And if you allow protoss to get a lot of temps and colossi, thats your fault. Temps and colossi require a crapload of gas, and therefore you need a lot of expansions. You don't let a toss do that, just like how a toss doesn't allow zergs to macro up like that in the pvz matchup Should have heard PainUser talk about his proxy rax builds before MLG DC~;; I actually practiced a 2rax reaper into exp opening for WEEKS before the patch, and it was reallyllylyl strong... too bad I don't have it anymore eh ? - o-;; Saying you don't let a Protoss take a third is silly. You're conceding the point that Terran late game is horrible and we have to play aggressive as hell and/or get lucky early-midgame (hellion drops or lucky breaks/catching a bad protoss off guard with cloak banshee vs no robo). And since Protoss is on the defensive, if they don't screw up how can Terran win? Because it's really on the Protoss to play correct and just survive the aggression until their gas kicks in and they reach late game.
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I'm surrpised you made this blog so late. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the most RO16, RO8, and RO4 players will be zergs. As for the winner? that is always a tossup but I expect a zerg to be in the finals and probably be favored. Not only are some of these zergs incredible but with the new changes, they adjust their playstyle by adding more roaches, while other races have to figure out new builds to combat it. It is so difficult for terrans to keep up now since it was all based on harass pre-most recent patch, in order to stay ahead of the zerg but now with 4 range roaches and reapers being as useful as scouts in BW, no good zerg should ever lose to a terran, and thats not even talking about ZvP.
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I think Terrans just haven't had enough time to readjust their builds.
But if you look at IdrA, he still doesn't use Roaches AT ALL in ZvT. He goes pure muta-ling-baneling anyway. The rax nerf lets him hatch before pool more safely now, but as for the Roach buff, he doesn't give a shit.
I think we're just seeing a lot of mediocre Terrans getting crushed now by Zergs of higher skill.
You will see this matchup be very even when good Terrans show how its done. All of Terran's ZvT openings were very cheesy.
Also, the top 200 is still majority Terran looking at the most recent stats.
And Korea, where Zergs have been "doing it right" supposedly, have only gained 1 Zerg into their Top 200.
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On October 26 2010 15:14 Subversion wrote:
I think Terrans just haven't had enough time to readjust their builds.
But if you look at IdrA, he still doesn't use Roaches AT ALL in ZvT. He goes pure muta-ling-baneling anyway. The rax nerf lets him hatch before pool more safely now, but as for the Roach buff, he doesn't give a shit.
I think we're just seeing a lot of mediocre Terrans getting crushed now by Zergs of higher skill.
You will see this matchup be very even when good Terrans show how its done.
Also, the top 200 is still majority Terran looking at the most recent stats.
And Korea, where Zergs have been "doing it right" supposedly, have only gained 1 Zerg into their Top 200.
Screw logic, Terran has it harder.
Because I said so...
It is always someone who has to be the immature one, and instead of practicing, or looking for ways to get better, they'd rather complain and try to seemingly gain some sort of sympathetic affirmation that everything they do is harder compared to the rest. In reality they look like douche-bag noobs who are only struggling because they spend a good portion of their time whining on Teamliquid. Especially when statistical results are pointing in the opposite direction they are. At least this is in blogs and not the strategy forum.
What is so hard for everyone to stop whining and legitimately look to improve?
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Baa?21245 Posts
Terrans right now are not using all their options they can versus Zerg swarm. And I will just say about the neosteel frame, this is one of the most abusive things in the game for Terran, and Terrans are completely ignoring it and playing stubborn and dyinig to the Zerg swarm.
And you…can build like…many bunkers and command centers!! Abuse it! I expected neosteel frames to be heavily nerfed like 3 patches ago, but people still refuse to abuse it like it should be abused, and that’s by building a ton of bunkers and command centers everywhere on the map.
Especially near the end of mid-game, and start of late-game, and versus something like roach ultra, it is essential, so start using em...start thinking like the SC1 players, and stop thinking like "i wanna mass marauders" sc2 terran players
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Yeah agreed.
Planetary Fortresses alone should allow you to seriously macro a lot harder than you are.
Terrans need to be looking at taking more bases much much sooner than they are currently. Do you know how bloody hard it is to take down a PF? You basically can't do it without Ultras if the dude gets a repair going in time.
That and bunkers which are essentially free, combined with upgrades such as Neosteel frame which are completely and utterly ignored.
Ravens also basically never see use, even though PDD completely owns Mutas. You have so many options that need to be explored, but instead you're just QQ'ing because you can't a-move an enormous mech/bio ball anymore.
Start being creative and looking for new builds. Do you know how much army control and flanking and counter-attacks and overlord drops and nydus and all kinds of shit Zerg has to use just to beat your a-move?
Zergs had to get a lot better in order to deal with Terrans. You were spoiled and lazy and didn't have to do anything particularly creative. Now that things are balanced, you need to actually learn to do things better, but the top Zergs already are ahead because they've had to be just to stay even in the past.
You can see the kinds of adjustments they made pre-patch, with Fruit winning GSL and IdrA pwning people now with the pre-patch build.
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On October 26 2010 04:56 Tazza wrote:
And you guys still have the most imba mu in the game right now in tvp, where t holds a strong hand. Its been like what, a week since the new patch? We had to deal with it for 3 months, with real hardships, you're just complaining that you don't get free wins from zerg anymore
I hope you don't actually believe this, because Blizzard feels exactly the way OP does about TvZ about TvP, so they're thinking about nerfing Storm to compensate.
I think I'll bookmark your post history so I can check out what your thoughts are once the next patch comes around.
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Now that the main whiner *cough* Tazza *cough* is banned, let me talk a little bit about the raven:
Every raven you make is a forgone thor or a forgone upgrade. There is absolutely no way that a PDD will protect you against mass mutas, since it doesn't address the main problem of killing them.
A forgone thor also means your infantry is more vulnerable to banelings since it removes a part of the "wall" that you use to block Z units from your main DPS, the marines.
HSM is a bloody joke. EVERY zerg unit can outrun it on creep, except the queen, again it doesn't actually address the problem of killing the zerg units, since they just run away.
Good luck killing an ultra with ravens too.
Turrets are slightly useful only, they are peashooters late game and are not affected by unit upgrades and thus are worthless.
So cut your bullshit about being creative, use those 2 braincells and figure out that if ravens were ANY good TvZ, they would have already been used by any of the 6000 players in top 5% of diamond.
If you want to make a stupid post like "hurr durr i saw a replay where ravens were used", please don't. Your anecdotal evidence is irrelevant. If they were really good, we'd see ravens in MLG, ESL cups or GSL. So far there have been none.
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i agree avilo. i've spoken to my friends the very day the patch came out,that Zerg will win GSL2. its the accumulative effect of having early game defense buffed(Roach range) making it way easier to defend and drone up for the Tier 3 Ultras/broodlords which are practically impossible to stop.
especially when the zerg will have the economy to back it up. and they will,again due to the much easier to defend section.
a Zerg WILL win the GSL 2
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On October 26 2010 19:17 Sadistx wrote:
Now that the main whiner *cough* Tazza *cough* is banned, let me talk a little bit about the raven:
Every raven you make is a forgone thor or a forgone upgrade. There is absolutely no way that a PDD will protect you against mass mutas, since it doesn't address the main problem of killing them.
A forgone thor also means your infantry is more vulnerable to banelings since it removes a part of the "wall" that you use to block Z units from your main DPS, the marines.
HSM is a bloody joke. EVERY zerg unit can outrun it on creep, except the queen, again it doesn't actually address the problem of killing the zerg units, since they just run away.
Good luck killing an ultra with ravens too.
Turrets are slightly useful only, they are peashooters late game and are not affected by unit upgrades and thus are worthless.
So cut your bullshit about being creative, use those 2 braincells and figure out that if ravens were ANY good TvZ, they would have already been used by any of the 6000 players in top 5% of diamond.
If you want to make a stupid post like "hurr durr i saw a replay where ravens were used", please don't. Your anecdotal evidence is irrelevant. If they were really good, we'd see ravens in MLG, ESL cups or GSL. So far there have been none.
You should watch MLG DC, where qxc wins a game against IdrA by using HSM on his mutas.
+ Show Spoiler +
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I really can't see anyone else apart from zerg winning GSL2, wouldn't be surprised if it was a zvz final.
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On October 26 2010 19:58 Subversion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 19:17 Sadistx wrote:
Now that the main whiner *cough* Tazza *cough* is banned, let me talk a little bit about the raven:
Every raven you make is a forgone thor or a forgone upgrade. There is absolutely no way that a PDD will protect you against mass mutas, since it doesn't address the main problem of killing them.
A forgone thor also means your infantry is more vulnerable to banelings since it removes a part of the "wall" that you use to block Z units from your main DPS, the marines.
HSM is a bloody joke. EVERY zerg unit can outrun it on creep, except the queen, again it doesn't actually address the problem of killing the zerg units, since they just run away.
Good luck killing an ultra with ravens too.
Turrets are slightly useful only, they are peashooters late game and are not affected by unit upgrades and thus are worthless.
So cut your bullshit about being creative, use those 2 braincells and figure out that if ravens were ANY good TvZ, they would have already been used by any of the 6000 players in top 5% of diamond.
If you want to make a stupid post like "hurr durr i saw a replay where ravens were used", please don't. Your anecdotal evidence is irrelevant. If they were really good, we'd see ravens in MLG, ESL cups or GSL. So far there have been none. You should watch MLG DC, where qxc wins a game against IdrA by using HSM on his mutas. + Show Spoiler +
He fired one missile that did practically no damage after flying around for 5 seconds, and he was up 40 supply then anyway. Qxc won that game despite wasting resources on ravens, not because of it.
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We can talk about zergs dominating gsl after they win gsl3 and 2011 (:
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the TvZ imbalace was nowhere near as strong as the ZvT imbalance now.
And as for th elearn 2 play comments pre patch, though they were stupid but had a point.
fruitdealer played different than any zerg i saw, with his banelings drops on the siege and marine lines and cutting the unit production extremely close to being attacked
Now i see drops all the time, that coupled with Z getting a free expo leads to a massive imbalance in Z favour. I dont see why they ruined the reaper AND made the helion useless. terran has no early game harass anymore which was essential imo to to stop the zergs from being so zerg and expanding everywhere.
blizzard shold learn moderate patching :D isntead they dont do anything for the longest time then massivley change stuff.
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Luckily the OP didn't account for what happened in GSL today and is now proven WRONG.
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On October 26 2010 19:58 Subversion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 19:17 Sadistx wrote:
Now that the main whiner *cough* Tazza *cough* is banned, let me talk a little bit about the raven:
Every raven you make is a forgone thor or a forgone upgrade. There is absolutely no way that a PDD will protect you against mass mutas, since it doesn't address the main problem of killing them.
A forgone thor also means your infantry is more vulnerable to banelings since it removes a part of the "wall" that you use to block Z units from your main DPS, the marines.
HSM is a bloody joke. EVERY zerg unit can outrun it on creep, except the queen, again it doesn't actually address the problem of killing the zerg units, since they just run away.
Good luck killing an ultra with ravens too.
Turrets are slightly useful only, they are peashooters late game and are not affected by unit upgrades and thus are worthless.
So cut your bullshit about being creative, use those 2 braincells and figure out that if ravens were ANY good TvZ, they would have already been used by any of the 6000 players in top 5% of diamond.
If you want to make a stupid post like "hurr durr i saw a replay where ravens were used", please don't. Your anecdotal evidence is irrelevant. If they were really good, we'd see ravens in MLG, ESL cups or GSL. So far there have been none. You should watch MLG DC, where qxc wins a game against IdrA by using HSM on his mutas. + Show Spoiler +
On October 26 2010 20:24 ShadowDrgn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 19:58 Subversion wrote:On October 26 2010 19:17 Sadistx wrote:
Now that the main whiner *cough* Tazza *cough* is banned, let me talk a little bit about the raven:
Every raven you make is a forgone thor or a forgone upgrade. There is absolutely no way that a PDD will protect you against mass mutas, since it doesn't address the main problem of killing them.
A forgone thor also means your infantry is more vulnerable to banelings since it removes a part of the "wall" that you use to block Z units from your main DPS, the marines.
HSM is a bloody joke. EVERY zerg unit can outrun it on creep, except the queen, again it doesn't actually address the problem of killing the zerg units, since they just run away.
Good luck killing an ultra with ravens too.
Turrets are slightly useful only, they are peashooters late game and are not affected by unit upgrades and thus are worthless.
So cut your bullshit about being creative, use those 2 braincells and figure out that if ravens were ANY good TvZ, they would have already been used by any of the 6000 players in top 5% of diamond.
If you want to make a stupid post like "hurr durr i saw a replay where ravens were used", please don't. Your anecdotal evidence is irrelevant. If they were really good, we'd see ravens in MLG, ESL cups or GSL. So far there have been none. You should watch MLG DC, where qxc wins a game against IdrA by using HSM on his mutas. + Show Spoiler + He fired one missile that did practically no damage after flying around for 5 seconds, and he was up 40 supply then anyway. Qxc won that game despite wasting resources on ravens, not because of it.
2 Subversion: Owned.
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EPT
