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This is going to be the easiest prediction ever, as well as slight rant.
A Zerg is going to win GSL season 2. Any idiot can see this. This last patch made it impossible for top level Terrans to beat top level Zergs once the game goes anywhere near late game. Larva inject simply kills you. Just like beta...
Reading the SC2 boards make me cringe though, because there are still posters posting, "omg that Zerg played so amazing!" or, "omg now Terrans need to learn how to play....ha!"
Do these people not see that Zergs are doing literally nothing different from last patch and now are raping the face of every Terran they come across. And they're doing it with ease.
Zergs right now are secretly smiling and trying to play off the "our race is so weak  " card even when they know their race is now the strongest. I find it absolutely hilarious how biased Zerg players are and how their perception of game balance is horribly off to how the game actually is.
And I doubt top level P's are having much easier of a time versus Z that T's are. PvZ is probably balanced now, considering Protoss had such a huge advantage in the last patch, but now it's about even I'd think.
ZvT though...lol blizzard. Every ZvT the Zerg gets their expo for free, with not even the THREAT of losing it. That threat was so very important in the patch b4 this (where Zergs were already beginning to rape Terrans - but they pretended otherwise).
Terran has been massively overnerfed. It basically started with the Tank nerf. Instead of buffing Zerg up to Terran's level, Tanks were nerfed (also making them utterly garbage in TvP killing off mech entirely).
The supply depot before rax change, plus the reaper changes now leaves Zerg so comfortable, they're often 20 drones ahead in any and every ZvT you or I will ever play.
And reapers...have been effectively removed from the game.
I cannot see any race other than a Zerg like idra or fruitdealer winning GSL2. This is not a matter of "just play better and recognize your mistakes." Zerg is right now the strongest race (again) and I predict a ZvZ finals, with idra versus fruitdealer.
Or it could be any other two Zergs in the finals. Assuming somehow it is not a ZvZ final and some protoss or terran gimmicks their way to the finals, if the final is ZvT, Zerg absolutely is the winner of GSL2.
If it's a PvZ in the finals, it is a toss-up. And at this point in time, predicting a TvP finals is laughable.
The others simply stand no chance.
  
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SWARM SEASON~~!!!
be glad you don't have battle royal in the map pool 
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United States7481 Posts
from what i see zerg is impossible to beat lategame. protoss have a chance midgame, but terran really don't because they have no way to deal with mutas (please don't suggest stimmed marines or thors). the hilarious thing is that if terran attack early (the only real chance to win) they just get called noobs by the zergs
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Welcome to the life of a Zerg player first 3 months of release. Grass is, in fact, not greener on the other side.
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The influx of real BW players such as MVP, Sangho and Nada are going to dominate the GSL. They are doing so well right now and none of them play Zerg. The player quality of the other races are just higher...
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On October 26 2010 04:47 ReketSomething wrote:
The influx of real BW players such as MVP, Sangho and Nada are going to dominate the GSL. They are doing so well right now and none of them play Zerg. The player quality of the other races are just higher...
thats why i say terran is gonna win 
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Australia7069 Posts
i think you're overreacting dude. Give the metagame some time to shift around. As far as i've seen, in idra and fruit dealers zvt's, the t's have made errors etc etc. just give it time dude
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did you make a similar post about terrans before the patch?
if not, you're probably a terran player
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Calgary25964 Posts
How do you respond to TvZ being previously heavily Terran favored and a Zerg winning season 1?
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Well BoxeR says T is over nerfed and he is the best TvZ´er ever...
I dunno though, maybe drops and more active creeptumor killing are the answer.
We´ll see.. I have to say I don´t like how safe early expanding is for zerg in most cases.
Zergs right now are pretty good and maybe playing zerg is more beneficial on the highest levels now.
It´s way too soon to say it´s OP.
E. T+ Show Spoiler +he winner of GSL is either BoxeR, Cool or Idra. BoxeR showed in Blizzcon that he isn´t an autowin to Cool. Maybe players like Nada who have atleast one great MU have a chance too if brackets play out right.
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Which league/ points are you OP?
As i see the game is slightly balanced.
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terrans are going to say and do everything the zergs did now?
"terrans cant do anything end game"... Really? You know this for a fact? I'd like to highly disagree if I may.
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Zergs had to deal with much worse for 3 months. Stop complaining. The game is a lot more balanced than before the patch. Hellions are still very very strong units in early game, and its still hard for zergs to deal with multipronged drops. And marauders are still really good, and auto repair with thors is still deadly. And you guys still have the most imba mu in the game right now in tvp, where t holds a strong hand. Its been like what, a week since the new patch? We had to deal with it for 3 months, with real hardships, you're just complaining that you don't get free wins from zerg anymore
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Well as of right now, I agree that zerg has a massive advantage over Terran.
Roaches can block any harassment that you do and if don't pressure zerg, they have a million and a half more drones than you do.
Zerg lategame is really difficult to deal with as Terran. Zerg lategame with zerg having an economic advantage is even more difficult. You have to rely on the zerg making some crazy errors. Since these people are pros, it's unlikely that such an error would occur.
So yes, I second the thought that Zerg is going to win the GSLs quite handily UNLESS another patch comes.
On October 26 2010 04:56 Tazza wrote:
Zergs had to deal with much worse for 3 months. Stop complaining. The game is a lot more balanced than before the patch. Hellions are still very very strong units in early game, and its still hard for zergs to deal with multipronged drops. And marauders are still really good, and auto repair with thors is still deadly. And you guys still have the most imba mu in the game right now in tvp, where t holds a strong hand. Its been like what, a week since the new patch? We had to deal with it for 3 months, with real hardships, you're just complaining that you don't get free wins from zerg anymore
You are kidding me. TvP is not Terran favored. It's true that Terran early game is stronger than Protoss early game, but with the depot before rax junk it's not as big of an advantage. Protoss late game totally trashes Terran.
Think about it this way. For Terran, you start out with marines, marauders, medivacs, and maybe ghosts and maybe vikings. When you end, you end with the same exact units.
Except Protoss late game can spam 75 energy temps and Colossi that deal over a hundred damage per shot.
And just because zerg was underpowered at a point does not make for a good argument that zerg should be overpowered for a time period 'to make up for it'.
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On October 26 2010 04:54 HwangjaeTerran wrote:
Well BoxeR says T is over nerfed and he is the best TvZ´er ever...
lol this is so wrong on so many levels
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I bet Sen wishes he knew this before playing Loner.
I don't see how the posts "You are playing your race wrong" aren't applicable anymore (as a similar sentiment was told to zergs when they complained). Terrans have been heavily affected by the new patches, however, there aren't many harassment options in the zerg early game arsenal that I have noticed besides zerglings so maybe the fast expand is the correct answer for Terrans as well. Granted I am not nearly at the level of the pros (and yourself OP), but fruitdealer and IdrA win most games deflecting an early terran attack and then using their early expo to pull ahead. Why can't terrans employ a similar strategy?
Just a week and and half does seem a bit early to be making these overarching statements as the poster above me stated.
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I have a problem sympathizing with you because of the treatment Zergs had when Terran was the "Flavor of the Month". I understand that Terrans are getting absolutely destroyed now, but why should I treat you any different from the way us Zergs were treated? We were told to shut up, L2P, mocked at with threads about Zerg tears, and so on.
I do however agree with you that when Zerg players are not admitting that their race is currently the strongest in the meta game, it is very obnoxious of them. I'm sure that Terran will find a way to adapt, just as the Zerg has before the patch. Yes, again I am well aware of how strong Zerg is now, and I won't deny it, I am not a jaded lil zergie player. I'm probably a little selfish saying this, but hey, it's your turn to suffer a bit, whether you are a fan of Terran players, or play Terran yourself.
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Balance swings, just like every other rts game.
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On October 26 2010 04:59 imPERSONater wrote:
I bet Sen wishes he knew this before playing Loner.
I don't see how the posts "You are playing your race wrong" aren't applicable anymore (as a similar sentiment was told to zergs when they complained). Terrans have been heavily affected by the new patches, however, there aren't many harassment options in the zerg early game arsenal that I have noticed besides zerglings so maybe the fast expand is the correct answer for Terrans as well. Granted I am not nearly at the level of the pros (and yourself OP), but fruitdealer and IdrA win most games deflecting an early terran attack and then using their early expo to pull ahead. Why can't terrans employ a similar strategy?
Just a week and and half does seem a bit early to be making these overarching statements as the poster above me stated.
Doesn't work. Zerg macro >>> Terran macro. If Terran doesn't pressure, he flat out loses. Larvae inject lets zerg drone up WAYYYY faster than Terran.
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On October 26 2010 04:58 skronch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 04:54 HwangjaeTerran wrote:
Well BoxeR says T is over nerfed and he is the best TvZ´er ever... lol this is so wrong on so many levels
.......I have nothing to add to that really.
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On October 26 2010 04:59 imPERSONater wrote:
I bet Sen wishes he knew this before playing Loner.
I don't see how the posts "You are playing your race wrong" aren't applicable anymore (as a similar sentiment was told to zergs when they complained). Terrans have been heavily affected by the new patches, however, there aren't many harassment options in the zerg early game arsenal that I have noticed besides zerglings so maybe the fast expand is the correct answer for Terrans as well. Granted I am not nearly at the level of the pros (and yourself OP), but fruitdealer and IdrA win most games deflecting an early terran attack and then using their early expo to pull ahead. Why can't terrans employ a similar strategy?
Just a week and and half does seem a bit early to be making these overarching statements as the poster above me stated.
Both parts of your statement contradict your idea.
1) What early zerg attack?
2) You expoing puts you behind since they expoed and have larva mechanic.
t t!;;
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This is ironic.
People made fun of Zerg players pre-patch, saying "all you need to do is change your style".
You know, the whole 'just figure it out' deal. And now when Terran's early game gets nerfed, the same people who insulted Zerg players for being upset in the first place are the ones crying and not even heeding their original advice.
If Zerg figured out how to deal with Terran, then maybe it is time some Terran players learn something other than reaper openings and proxy barracks. Everyone is one-dimensional, playing with siege tank/marine, then saying how imbalanced this shit is when they can't even adjust lol. I'm not saying anything in regards to balance, I just find it so funny. Especially when players like QXC and Brat_OK are prime examples of people who are experimenting and finding success with other builds.
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On October 26 2010 04:56 frogmelter wrote:Well as of right now, I agree that zerg has a massive advantage over Terran. Roaches can block any harassment that you do and if don't pressure zerg, they have a million and a half more drones than you do. Zerg lategame is really difficult to deal with as Terran. Zerg lategame with zerg having an economic advantage is even more difficult. You have to rely on the zerg making some crazy errors. Since these people are pros, it's unlikely that such an error would occur. So yes, I second the thought that Zerg is going to win the GSLs quite handily UNLESS another patch comes. Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 04:56 Tazza wrote:
Zergs had to deal with much worse for 3 months. Stop complaining. The game is a lot more balanced than before the patch. Hellions are still very very strong units in early game, and its still hard for zergs to deal with multipronged drops. And marauders are still really good, and auto repair with thors is still deadly. And you guys still have the most imba mu in the game right now in tvp, where t holds a strong hand. Its been like what, a week since the new patch? We had to deal with it for 3 months, with real hardships, you're just complaining that you don't get free wins from zerg anymore You are kidding me. TvP is not Terran favored. It's true that Terran early game is stronger than Protoss early game, but with the depot before rax junk it's not as big of an advantage. Protoss late game totally trashes Terran. Think about it this way. For Terran, you start out with marines, marauders, medivacs, and maybe ghosts and maybe vikings. When you end, you end with the same exact units. Except Protoss late game can spam 75 energy temps and Colossi that deal over a hundred damage per shot. And just because zerg was underpowered at a point does not make for a good argument that zerg should be overpowered for a time period 'to make up for it'.
The supply before rax barely affects the tvp matchup at all. No one used reapers against protoss, and not many people did a bbs against terran. And if you can start out with so many units, you can harass. That's what terran is in sc2, its about harass. No other race can get t3 units as fast as you. You can get thors superfast, and even bcs really fast, but zerg and protoss take very long to get those units. And if you allow protoss to get a lot of temps and colossi, thats your fault. Temps and colossi require a crapload of gas, and therefore you need a lot of expansions. You don't let a toss do that, just like how a toss doesn't allow zergs to macro up like that in the pvz matchup
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On October 26 2010 05:02 frogmelter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 04:59 imPERSONater wrote:
I bet Sen wishes he knew this before playing Loner.
I don't see how the posts "You are playing your race wrong" aren't applicable anymore (as a similar sentiment was told to zergs when they complained). Terrans have been heavily affected by the new patches, however, there aren't many harassment options in the zerg early game arsenal that I have noticed besides zerglings so maybe the fast expand is the correct answer for Terrans as well. Granted I am not nearly at the level of the pros (and yourself OP), but fruitdealer and IdrA win most games deflecting an early terran attack and then using their early expo to pull ahead. Why can't terrans employ a similar strategy?
Just a week and and half does seem a bit early to be making these overarching statements as the poster above me stated. Doesn't work. Zerg macro >>> Terran macro. If Terran doesn't pressure, he flat out loses. Larvae inject lets zerg drone up WAYYYY faster than Terran.
The hardest strat for me to deal with as zerg during the terran domination days was a terran that expanded to two bases and then turtled before a death push. Terrans got away from that once they realized literally every unit was great at harassing early game zergs but I don't see why a return to this is impossible. Tanks have been nerfed to hell, sure, economically keeping up with zerg wasn't a problem then and nothing has changed on the economic front.
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On October 26 2010 05:05 SCC-Faust wrote:
This is ironic.
People made fun of Zerg players pre-patch, saying "all you need to do is change your style".
You know, the whole 'just figure it out' deal. And now when Terran's early game gets nerfed, the same people who insulted Zerg players for being upset in the first place are the ones crying and not even heeding their original advice.
If Zerg figured out how to deal with Terran, then maybe it is time some Terran players learn something other than reaper openings and proxy barracks. Everyone is one-dimensional, playing with siege tank/marine, then saying how imbalanced this shit is when they can't even adjust lol. I'm not saying anything in regards to balance, I just find it so funny. Especially when players like QXC and Brat_OK are prime examples of people who are experimenting and finding success with other builds. I'm enjoying it thoroughly as well. So many ZvT responses last month along the lines of "No you just have to get creative! Use nydus!"
Z is op in ZvT? Nope. Terrans just need to get more creative with ravens!
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On October 26 2010 05:04 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 04:59 imPERSONater wrote:
I bet Sen wishes he knew this before playing Loner.
I don't see how the posts "You are playing your race wrong" aren't applicable anymore (as a similar sentiment was told to zergs when they complained). Terrans have been heavily affected by the new patches, however, there aren't many harassment options in the zerg early game arsenal that I have noticed besides zerglings so maybe the fast expand is the correct answer for Terrans as well. Granted I am not nearly at the level of the pros (and yourself OP), but fruitdealer and IdrA win most games deflecting an early terran attack and then using their early expo to pull ahead. Why can't terrans employ a similar strategy?
Just a week and and half does seem a bit early to be making these overarching statements as the poster above me stated. Both parts of your statement contradict your idea. 1) What early zerg attack? 2) You expoing puts you behind since they expoed and have larva mechanic. t t!;;
haha, obviously I am outclassed here so I yield to your knowledge, but I must admit I am getting a little schadenfreude out of this new problem so I apologize if the sympathy is lacking
The first point seems to help my idea, if they don't even need to worry about an early zerg attack doesn't that make it easier? I can't comment on the practicality of the second point because you would know better than I.
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I allin every TvZ now.
And it's working alot but its retarded. Highly annoying how T cant even attempt to play a macro game. Once it gets over like 12 minute mark I don't know how T could ever win.
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On October 26 2010 05:06 Tazza wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 04:56 frogmelter wrote:Well as of right now, I agree that zerg has a massive advantage over Terran. Roaches can block any harassment that you do and if don't pressure zerg, they have a million and a half more drones than you do. Zerg lategame is really difficult to deal with as Terran. Zerg lategame with zerg having an economic advantage is even more difficult. You have to rely on the zerg making some crazy errors. Since these people are pros, it's unlikely that such an error would occur. So yes, I second the thought that Zerg is going to win the GSLs quite handily UNLESS another patch comes. On October 26 2010 04:56 Tazza wrote:
Zergs had to deal with much worse for 3 months. Stop complaining. The game is a lot more balanced than before the patch. Hellions are still very very strong units in early game, and its still hard for zergs to deal with multipronged drops. And marauders are still really good, and auto repair with thors is still deadly. And you guys still have the most imba mu in the game right now in tvp, where t holds a strong hand. Its been like what, a week since the new patch? We had to deal with it for 3 months, with real hardships, you're just complaining that you don't get free wins from zerg anymore You are kidding me. TvP is not Terran favored. It's true that Terran early game is stronger than Protoss early game, but with the depot before rax junk it's not as big of an advantage. Protoss late game totally trashes Terran. Think about it this way. For Terran, you start out with marines, marauders, medivacs, and maybe ghosts and maybe vikings. When you end, you end with the same exact units. Except Protoss late game can spam 75 energy temps and Colossi that deal over a hundred damage per shot. And just because zerg was underpowered at a point does not make for a good argument that zerg should be overpowered for a time period 'to make up for it'. The supply before rax barely affects the tvp matchup at all. No one used reapers against protoss, and not many people did a bbs against terran. And if you can start out with so many units, you can harass. That's what terran is in sc2, its about harass. No other race can get t3 units as fast as you. You can get thors superfast, and even bcs really fast, but zerg and protoss take very long to get those units. And if you allow protoss to get a lot of temps and colossi, thats your fault. Temps and colossi require a crapload of gas, and therefore you need a lot of expansions. You don't let a toss do that, just like how a toss doesn't allow zergs to macro up like that in the pvz matchup
I never liked the reasoning "don't let it get up to that point". With the 1 gate FE pretty much safe and standard, 2 base Protoss can go colossus into templar pretty easily while taking a third. 3 bases, or even 2, is enough for a critical mass of colossus or HT.
Not to mention this is getting off topic.
Even if T>>>P in TvP [which I don't agree with], it does NOT mean that has to be Z>>>T in ZvT in order to balance it out.
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You're probably right in your predictions.
Looking at , it doesn't seem unreasonable for there to be 3 Zergs (and definitely 2) in the semifinals. I think the bottom half could end up IdrA and Terious and the top half semifinals having FruitDealer and NEXGenius maybe? The top half is definitely more stacked, and it will be interesting to see how the FruitDealer v SangHo matchup ends up. The CheckPrime, Rainbow, InCa, NEXGenius section of the top half is going to be absolutely NUTS.
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Up until the patch, much like avilo stated, zergs were under a lot of heavy pressure in the beginning, resulting in a ton of early game victories or at the very least a large amount of crippling to stifle the zerg's macro mechanics to where a large army could compete when they pushed out. However, as seen by GSL1, zergs that could withstand that early pressure would be nearly invincible. This has never changed, but was extremely overshadowed by the popularity of early terran harassment. Without that early pressure as a solid option or at the very least a threat, zergs can freely 14 hatch and power drones more than ever. Essentially, zerg's economy took much longer to accelerate into that unstoppable zone we have seen in the GSL1 finals via FruitDealer and currently in GSL2 (PoltPrime's games, Gon vs. IdrA).
Loner won against Sen with timing windows in the early game. If Sen had scouted properly, all that was needed was some larva injected speedlings and banelings and/or spine crawlers. Currently, the only slightly viable strategy I have seen thus far to combat zerg's macro ability is to 1 rax expand and consistently trade bio with them. It doesn't feel very solid to me however.
I agree that there still needs time to figure things out from the T perspective, but as it stands now, in my opinion, you won't see mechanically sound zerg players like IdrA or FruitDealer losing to a terran for quite some time. Muta, ling, baneling vs. Tank/Marine, mainly roaches against Mech play.
Most definitely agree that we will be seeing a Z win this GSL.
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Facts speak more than anything else.
Just enlighten the Zerg win ratio at GSL.
The ratio of Zerg players there (compared to the 20% of overall Korean Zerg players).
It is glaringly obvious that Zerg is now stronger than any other race has ever been.
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On October 26 2010 05:11 LuckyFool wrote:
I allin every TvZ now.
And it's working alot but its retarded. Highly annoying how T cant even attempt to play a macro game. Once it gets over like 12 minute mark I don't know how T could ever win.
Ditto. Macroing vs a zerg is hilarious. He gave me 3 free bases and when I push out I barely beat his army, get to his base and 10 ultras are waiting.
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On October 26 2010 05:11 frogmelter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 05:06 Tazza wrote:On October 26 2010 04:56 frogmelter wrote:Well as of right now, I agree that zerg has a massive advantage over Terran. Roaches can block any harassment that you do and if don't pressure zerg, they have a million and a half more drones than you do. Zerg lategame is really difficult to deal with as Terran. Zerg lategame with zerg having an economic advantage is even more difficult. You have to rely on the zerg making some crazy errors. Since these people are pros, it's unlikely that such an error would occur. So yes, I second the thought that Zerg is going to win the GSLs quite handily UNLESS another patch comes. On October 26 2010 04:56 Tazza wrote:
Zergs had to deal with much worse for 3 months. Stop complaining. The game is a lot more balanced than before the patch. Hellions are still very very strong units in early game, and its still hard for zergs to deal with multipronged drops. And marauders are still really good, and auto repair with thors is still deadly. And you guys still have the most imba mu in the game right now in tvp, where t holds a strong hand. Its been like what, a week since the new patch? We had to deal with it for 3 months, with real hardships, you're just complaining that you don't get free wins from zerg anymore You are kidding me. TvP is not Terran favored. It's true that Terran early game is stronger than Protoss early game, but with the depot before rax junk it's not as big of an advantage. Protoss late game totally trashes Terran. Think about it this way. For Terran, you start out with marines, marauders, medivacs, and maybe ghosts and maybe vikings. When you end, you end with the same exact units. Except Protoss late game can spam 75 energy temps and Colossi that deal over a hundred damage per shot. And just because zerg was underpowered at a point does not make for a good argument that zerg should be overpowered for a time period 'to make up for it'. The supply before rax barely affects the tvp matchup at all. No one used reapers against protoss, and not many people did a bbs against terran. And if you can start out with so many units, you can harass. That's what terran is in sc2, its about harass. No other race can get t3 units as fast as you. You can get thors superfast, and even bcs really fast, but zerg and protoss take very long to get those units. And if you allow protoss to get a lot of temps and colossi, thats your fault. Temps and colossi require a crapload of gas, and therefore you need a lot of expansions. You don't let a toss do that, just like how a toss doesn't allow zergs to macro up like that in the pvz matchup I never liked the reasoning "don't let it get up to that point". With the 1 gate FE pretty much safe and standard, 2 base Protoss can go colossus into templar pretty easily while taking a third. 3 bases, or even 2, is enough for a critical mass of colossus or HT.
My point wasn't "don't let it get up to that point" My point was, you don't let a toss to expand freely. If he's stuck on 2 bases for a while, he will not have enough gas to constantly pump out templars and collossi, while getting the upgrades for them. And its not easy for toss to get extra bases. Their army is pretty immobile, and you can take the expos out with a few multipronged attacks. Stimmed marauders kill buildings super fast, and are really great units against protoss gateway units.
And to the "don't let it get up to that point" argument, a lot of starcraft is about that. In pvz, thats what its all about, the toss can't let the zerg be on 5-6 fully saturated bases, because they know they'll be overrrun. So toss has to make good timing attacks to stop this. This doesn't stop pvz from being imba, it is one of the most balance mus in the game, and even slightly favors protoss. Even in BW, a lot of tvz was about not letting zerg get that 4th gas, and pushing out with 1 vessel, 3 tanks, and mnm to stop the zerg.
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how about you try something different instead of turtling death ball, or reaper harass or proxy? did you know you can build a unit called a ghost? oh what? theres a unit called raven? holy shit how do i use abilities? omg i can hotkey the number 2? oh damn theyre getting so much drones, too bad i cant mule for a quick 300 minerals. aww QQ i my seige tanks dont do 75 dmg anymore, therefore theyre utterly useless. oh yeah and since reapers dont exist anymore, i guess i cant harass his minerals during mid-game because reapers cost 300/200. oh and my flame throwing car costs too much gas to early harass. those damn zerg dont have to larvae manage at all. im not being sarcastic.
anyway, im a zerg player, ill be honest, im loving the patch updates, but im gonna pull the fruitdealer card. well all zerg felt underpowered, look who won gsl. who says terran cant learn like fruitdealer did? unless youre suggesting that all terran are mindless zombies, there are great terran players and dont think you its about time for some terran metagame?
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On October 26 2010 05:18 Tazza wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 05:11 frogmelter wrote:On October 26 2010 05:06 Tazza wrote:On October 26 2010 04:56 frogmelter wrote:Well as of right now, I agree that zerg has a massive advantage over Terran. Roaches can block any harassment that you do and if don't pressure zerg, they have a million and a half more drones than you do. Zerg lategame is really difficult to deal with as Terran. Zerg lategame with zerg having an economic advantage is even more difficult. You have to rely on the zerg making some crazy errors. Since these people are pros, it's unlikely that such an error would occur. So yes, I second the thought that Zerg is going to win the GSLs quite handily UNLESS another patch comes. On October 26 2010 04:56 Tazza wrote:
Zergs had to deal with much worse for 3 months. Stop complaining. The game is a lot more balanced than before the patch. Hellions are still very very strong units in early game, and its still hard for zergs to deal with multipronged drops. And marauders are still really good, and auto repair with thors is still deadly. And you guys still have the most imba mu in the game right now in tvp, where t holds a strong hand. Its been like what, a week since the new patch? We had to deal with it for 3 months, with real hardships, you're just complaining that you don't get free wins from zerg anymore You are kidding me. TvP is not Terran favored. It's true that Terran early game is stronger than Protoss early game, but with the depot before rax junk it's not as big of an advantage. Protoss late game totally trashes Terran. Think about it this way. For Terran, you start out with marines, marauders, medivacs, and maybe ghosts and maybe vikings. When you end, you end with the same exact units. Except Protoss late game can spam 75 energy temps and Colossi that deal over a hundred damage per shot. And just because zerg was underpowered at a point does not make for a good argument that zerg should be overpowered for a time period 'to make up for it'. The supply before rax barely affects the tvp matchup at all. No one used reapers against protoss, and not many people did a bbs against terran. And if you can start out with so many units, you can harass. That's what terran is in sc2, its about harass. No other race can get t3 units as fast as you. You can get thors superfast, and even bcs really fast, but zerg and protoss take very long to get those units. And if you allow protoss to get a lot of temps and colossi, thats your fault. Temps and colossi require a crapload of gas, and therefore you need a lot of expansions. You don't let a toss do that, just like how a toss doesn't allow zergs to macro up like that in the pvz matchup I never liked the reasoning "don't let it get up to that point". With the 1 gate FE pretty much safe and standard, 2 base Protoss can go colossus into templar pretty easily while taking a third. 3 bases, or even 2, is enough for a critical mass of colossus or HT. My point wasn't "don't let it get up to that point" My point was, you don't let a toss to expand freely. If he's stuck on 2 bases for a while, he will not have enough gas to constantly pump out templars and collossi, while getting the upgrades for them. And its not easy for toss to get extra bases. Their army is pretty immobile, and you can take the expos out with a few multipronged attacks. Stimmed marauders kill buildings super fast, and are really great units against protoss gateway units. And to the "don't let it get up to that point" argument, a lot of starcraft is about that. In pvz, thats what its all about, the toss can't let the zerg be on 5-6 fully saturated bases, because they know they'll be overrrun. So toss has to make good timing attacks to stop this. This doesn't stop pvz from being imba, it is one of the most balance mus in the game, and even slightly favors protoss. Even in BW, a lot of tvz was about not letting zerg get that 4th gas, and pushing out with 1 vessel, 3 tanks, and mnm to stop the zerg.
Which is why TvP is balanced at most. I still don't see how T>>>P in TvP. And it really depends on the positions. I'll agree that TvP on close positions is a fair bit easier, but far positions let the protoss expand a lot more freely.
It's not really about 'letting' the protoss expand freely. Obviously Terran should have units at the expansions constantly scouting. Protoss just needs to expand when there's a good enough timing for it [after an army trade or something of that sort].
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omfg quit qqing and go home and cry, zerg have been brought up to speed and now were seeing that zerg is a viable zace, its starting to get even now, well its more even then last patch but the fact remains that reapers are still very usable and terrans are so use to their noob mmm builds that they now have to figure out good builds, something the zerg are already ahead in due to the imbaness they had to deal with.
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Well, it was inevitable. Zerg late game was already stronger than Terran late game even before the patch, just notice how Terran always won early on or at least secured a HUGE advantage. Now, when Terran early game is nerfed to hell and Zerg can easily defend, there is nothing that could stop the Zerg macro machine.
I don't even watch the games anymore, they are all the same. Terran player futily tries to damage Zerg econ but is inevitably outnumbered and overrun.
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Oh how the tables have turned, muwahahaha.
Seriously though, I have yet to see most Terran's do anything other than 1 base, or 2 base play.
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On October 26 2010 05:27 Hunch wrote:
omfg quit qqing and go home and cry, zerg have been brought up to speed and now were seeing that zerg is a viable zace, its starting to get even now, well its more even then last patch but the fact remains that reapers are still very usable and terrans are so use to their noob mmm builds that they now have to figure out good builds, something the zerg are already ahead in due to the imbaness they had to deal with.
Reapers are viable? Against range 4 roach? You can't kite roaches anymore and one roach can kill tons of reapers quite handily. You won't catch the zerg offguard because of overlord/creep spread either.
Zerg was already a viable race. A zerg won GSL 1. No one contested that zerg was not viable prepatch.
Also, manner up plz.
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I think they will have to unerf tanks, bc or both
Or it will become what it was in early beta ...
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On October 26 2010 05:25 itzzspencer wrote:
how about you try something different instead of turtling death ball, or reaper harass or proxy? did you know you can build a unit called a ghost? oh what? theres a unit called raven? holy shit how do i use abilities? omg i can hotkey the number 2? oh damn theyre getting so much drones, too bad i cant mule for a quick 300 minerals. aww QQ i my seige tanks dont do 75 dmg anymore, therefore theyre utterly useless. oh yeah and since reapers dont exist anymore, i guess i cant harass his minerals during mid-game because reapers cost 300/200. oh and my flame throwing car costs too much gas to early harass. those damn zerg dont have to larvae manage at all. im not being sarcastic.
anyway, im a zerg player, ill be honest, im loving the patch updates, but im gonna pull the fruitdealer card. well all zerg felt underpowered, look who won gsl. who says terran cant learn like fruitdealer did? unless youre suggesting that all terran are mindless zombies, there are great terran players and dont think you its about time for some terran metagame?
Zerg's supreme advantage always existed in the late game since the beta. It was their inability to deal with harassment that began to overshadow that glaring issue. GSL1 and on, we began to see zergs learn to hold off these types of attacks. However, since that skill is no longer needed, all the remains is a ridiculous macro ability and no real way to stop it currently. I am eager to see if there is one. It would definitely make for a pretty boring game if Terran either had to all-in and kill the zerg early enough before their macro kicked in and it was over.
I realize many of these replies are from players own experiences and perspectives, but what we must also understand is that unless we are at the very top skill-wise or near it, these problems presented don't resonate in their entirety. Your experiences as a 1400 level zerg or terran player don't directly translate to the issues in the semi-professional and professional scene.
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On October 26 2010 05:06 Tazza wrote:
The supply before rax barely affects the tvp matchup at all. No one used reapers against protoss, and not many people did a bbs against terran. And if you can start out with so many units, you can harass. That's what terran is in sc2, its about harass. No other race can get t3 units as fast as you. You can get thors superfast, and even bcs really fast, but zerg and protoss take very long to get those units. And if you allow protoss to get a lot of temps and colossi, thats your fault. Temps and colossi require a crapload of gas, and therefore you need a lot of expansions. You don't let a toss do that, just like how a toss doesn't allow zergs to macro up like that in the pvz matchup
Should have heard PainUser talk about his proxy rax builds before MLG DC~;;
I actually practiced a 2rax reaper into exp opening for WEEKS before the patch, and it was reallyllylyl strong... too bad I don't have it anymore eh ? - o-;;
Saying you don't let a Protoss take a third is silly. You're conceding the point that Terran late game is horrible and we have to play aggressive as hell and/or get lucky early-midgame (hellion drops or lucky breaks/catching a bad protoss off guard with cloak banshee vs no robo). And since Protoss is on the defensive, if they don't screw up how can Terran win? Because it's really on the Protoss to play correct and just survive the aggression until their gas kicks in and they reach late game.
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avilo,
I remember when zergs were having trouble before patch 1.1 and at the end of the beta, you were making threads telling zergs to "try something new" such as MASS NYDUS (which hardly made any sense btw). And when terran might seem to be on the backfoot a couple weeks after the recent patch, the only posts ive seen from you are zerg imba whine posts.
Maybe you should wait a while longer before whining. After all, us zergs have been dealing with it for months and you've hardly had a couple weeks. The terrans need a bit of time to figure out what works now post patch.
Also, maybe the terrans that went high up into the ladder are now on even footing with some of the skilled zergs. Maybe that's why theres a perception of "imbalance"; zergs are no longer given a handicap and to terrans, it might feel like zerg is imbalanced. But rather, maybe your opponents have always been better.
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On October 26 2010 05:31 frogmelter wrote:
Zerg was already a viable race. A zerg won GSL 1. No one contested that zerg was not viable prepatch.
lol?
Personally, I think Terran may have been overnerfed, but I also don't think they are exploring their options. After early game gimmicks, Terran players seem to be too passive. I think they should be more active by stopping creep and doing more Blue Flame Hellion harass. Mutalisks stop all of this, but they can't harass you AND defend at the same time. Well maybe they can with these stupidly small ladder maps, but once maps get bigger, I'm sure Terran will have more harass options.
I never seen a Terran try to actively stop creep. Send one Raven and maybe a Reaper to try to hunt tumors. While doing that, run some hellions by and harass the mineral line.
Also, I think Terrans could try to do a timing push before a lot of Mutalisks pop to force Zergs to build Crawlers or Lings...similar to SCI.
At least let this new patch play out a little...this was a major patch with significant gameplay changes, give it some time.
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Yea Terran is basically screwed now. Terran's lategame is absolutely crap and get CRUSHED by both Zerg and Protoss. There is simply no answer to Broodlords/corrupters, Ultralisks, storm+colossus. Zerg can massive drone pump and use roaches to defend against any harass until mid-game means gg for Terrans.
Sen was doing what every zerg is doing vs Loner, that is abuse the newfound awesomeness of the roaches. Loner just predicted his style and took him down with marauders, but this won't work more than a few times as marauders do crap dmg vs lings and don't shoot up.
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On October 26 2010 05:45 vnlegend wrote:
Yea Terran is basically screwed now. Terran's lategame is absolutely crap and get CRUSHED by both Zerg and Protoss. There is simply no answer to Broodlords/corrupters, Ultralisks, storm+colossus. Zerg can massive drone pump and use roaches to defend against any harass until mid-game means gg for Terrans.
Sen was doing what every zerg is doing vs Loner, that is abuse the newfound awesomeness of the roaches. Loner just predicted his style and took him down with marauders, but this won't work more than a few times as marauders do crap dmg vs lings and don't shoot up.
Game 1 of Sen vs Loner was just Sen screwing up REALLY BADLY with his micro. Tens of roaches were thrown away due to mismicro/poor decision making.
Game 2 Loner played a style that TvZ is definitely shifting to and is pretty strong though. Worth watching for Terrans.
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On October 26 2010 05:27 frogmelter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 05:18 Tazza wrote:On October 26 2010 05:11 frogmelter wrote:On October 26 2010 05:06 Tazza wrote:On October 26 2010 04:56 frogmelter wrote:Well as of right now, I agree that zerg has a massive advantage over Terran. Roaches can block any harassment that you do and if don't pressure zerg, they have a million and a half more drones than you do. Zerg lategame is really difficult to deal with as Terran. Zerg lategame with zerg having an economic advantage is even more difficult. You have to rely on the zerg making some crazy errors. Since these people are pros, it's unlikely that such an error would occur. So yes, I second the thought that Zerg is going to win the GSLs quite handily UNLESS another patch comes. On October 26 2010 04:56 Tazza wrote:
Zergs had to deal with much worse for 3 months. Stop complaining. The game is a lot more balanced than before the patch. Hellions are still very very strong units in early game, and its still hard for zergs to deal with multipronged drops. And marauders are still really good, and auto repair with thors is still deadly. And you guys still have the most imba mu in the game right now in tvp, where t holds a strong hand. Its been like what, a week since the new patch? We had to deal with it for 3 months, with real hardships, you're just complaining that you don't get free wins from zerg anymore You are kidding me. TvP is not Terran favored. It's true that Terran early game is stronger than Protoss early game, but with the depot before rax junk it's not as big of an advantage. Protoss late game totally trashes Terran. Think about it this way. For Terran, you start out with marines, marauders, medivacs, and maybe ghosts and maybe vikings. When you end, you end with the same exact units. Except Protoss late game can spam 75 energy temps and Colossi that deal over a hundred damage per shot. And just because zerg was underpowered at a point does not make for a good argument that zerg should be overpowered for a time period 'to make up for it'. The supply before rax barely affects the tvp matchup at all. No one used reapers against protoss, and not many people did a bbs against terran. And if you can start out with so many units, you can harass. That's what terran is in sc2, its about harass. No other race can get t3 units as fast as you. You can get thors superfast, and even bcs really fast, but zerg and protoss take very long to get those units. And if you allow protoss to get a lot of temps and colossi, thats your fault. Temps and colossi require a crapload of gas, and therefore you need a lot of expansions. You don't let a toss do that, just like how a toss doesn't allow zergs to macro up like that in the pvz matchup I never liked the reasoning "don't let it get up to that point". With the 1 gate FE pretty much safe and standard, 2 base Protoss can go colossus into templar pretty easily while taking a third. 3 bases, or even 2, is enough for a critical mass of colossus or HT. My point wasn't "don't let it get up to that point" My point was, you don't let a toss to expand freely. If he's stuck on 2 bases for a while, he will not have enough gas to constantly pump out templars and collossi, while getting the upgrades for them. And its not easy for toss to get extra bases. Their army is pretty immobile, and you can take the expos out with a few multipronged attacks. Stimmed marauders kill buildings super fast, and are really great units against protoss gateway units. And to the "don't let it get up to that point" argument, a lot of starcraft is about that. In pvz, thats what its all about, the toss can't let the zerg be on 5-6 fully saturated bases, because they know they'll be overrrun. So toss has to make good timing attacks to stop this. This doesn't stop pvz from being imba, it is one of the most balance mus in the game, and even slightly favors protoss. Even in BW, a lot of tvz was about not letting zerg get that 4th gas, and pushing out with 1 vessel, 3 tanks, and mnm to stop the zerg. Which is why TvP is balanced at most. I still don't see how T>>>P in TvP. And it really depends on the positions. I'll agree that TvP on close positions is a fair bit easier, but far positions let the protoss expand a lot more freely. It's not really about 'letting' the protoss expand freely. Obviously Terran should have units at the expansions constantly scouting. Protoss just needs to expand when there's a good enough timing for it [after an army trade or something of that sort].
Well you can't say tvp is balanced because zvp is balanced because they both require a race to "not let it get to the point"
And I still believe it is imba, because tvp was imba before the patches, and the patches have done absolutely nothing, except for the tank nerf, but even then, tanks weren't used much in tvp, as they were hardcountered by immortals, and could be lifted up by phoenix, etc. And you cannot say that the depot before barracks or the reaper nerf affected tvp in any way because no one bunker rushed a toss, or used reapers against them. And marauders are just so good, for so little cost
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On October 26 2010 05:48 Tazza wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 05:27 frogmelter wrote:On October 26 2010 05:18 Tazza wrote:On October 26 2010 05:11 frogmelter wrote:On October 26 2010 05:06 Tazza wrote:On October 26 2010 04:56 frogmelter wrote:Well as of right now, I agree that zerg has a massive advantage over Terran. Roaches can block any harassment that you do and if don't pressure zerg, they have a million and a half more drones than you do. Zerg lategame is really difficult to deal with as Terran. Zerg lategame with zerg having an economic advantage is even more difficult. You have to rely on the zerg making some crazy errors. Since these people are pros, it's unlikely that such an error would occur. So yes, I second the thought that Zerg is going to win the GSLs quite handily UNLESS another patch comes. On October 26 2010 04:56 Tazza wrote:
Zergs had to deal with much worse for 3 months. Stop complaining. The game is a lot more balanced than before the patch. Hellions are still very very strong units in early game, and its still hard for zergs to deal with multipronged drops. And marauders are still really good, and auto repair with thors is still deadly. And you guys still have the most imba mu in the game right now in tvp, where t holds a strong hand. Its been like what, a week since the new patch? We had to deal with it for 3 months, with real hardships, you're just complaining that you don't get free wins from zerg anymore You are kidding me. TvP is not Terran favored. It's true that Terran early game is stronger than Protoss early game, but with the depot before rax junk it's not as big of an advantage. Protoss late game totally trashes Terran. Think about it this way. For Terran, you start out with marines, marauders, medivacs, and maybe ghosts and maybe vikings. When you end, you end with the same exact units. Except Protoss late game can spam 75 energy temps and Colossi that deal over a hundred damage per shot. And just because zerg was underpowered at a point does not make for a good argument that zerg should be overpowered for a time period 'to make up for it'. The supply before rax barely affects the tvp matchup at all. No one used reapers against protoss, and not many people did a bbs against terran. And if you can start out with so many units, you can harass. That's what terran is in sc2, its about harass. No other race can get t3 units as fast as you. You can get thors superfast, and even bcs really fast, but zerg and protoss take very long to get those units. And if you allow protoss to get a lot of temps and colossi, thats your fault. Temps and colossi require a crapload of gas, and therefore you need a lot of expansions. You don't let a toss do that, just like how a toss doesn't allow zergs to macro up like that in the pvz matchup I never liked the reasoning "don't let it get up to that point". With the 1 gate FE pretty much safe and standard, 2 base Protoss can go colossus into templar pretty easily while taking a third. 3 bases, or even 2, is enough for a critical mass of colossus or HT. My point wasn't "don't let it get up to that point" My point was, you don't let a toss to expand freely. If he's stuck on 2 bases for a while, he will not have enough gas to constantly pump out templars and collossi, while getting the upgrades for them. And its not easy for toss to get extra bases. Their army is pretty immobile, and you can take the expos out with a few multipronged attacks. Stimmed marauders kill buildings super fast, and are really great units against protoss gateway units. And to the "don't let it get up to that point" argument, a lot of starcraft is about that. In pvz, thats what its all about, the toss can't let the zerg be on 5-6 fully saturated bases, because they know they'll be overrrun. So toss has to make good timing attacks to stop this. This doesn't stop pvz from being imba, it is one of the most balance mus in the game, and even slightly favors protoss. Even in BW, a lot of tvz was about not letting zerg get that 4th gas, and pushing out with 1 vessel, 3 tanks, and mnm to stop the zerg. Which is why TvP is balanced at most. I still don't see how T>>>P in TvP. And it really depends on the positions. I'll agree that TvP on close positions is a fair bit easier, but far positions let the protoss expand a lot more freely. It's not really about 'letting' the protoss expand freely. Obviously Terran should have units at the expansions constantly scouting. Protoss just needs to expand when there's a good enough timing for it [after an army trade or something of that sort]. Well you can't say tvp is balanced because zvp is balanced because they both require a race to "not let it get to the point" And I still believe it is imba, because tvp was imba before the patches, and the patches have done absolutely nothing, except for the tank nerf, but even then, tanks weren't used much in tvp, as they were hardcountered by immortals, and could be lifted up by phoenix, etc. And you cannot say that the depot before barracks or the reaper nerf affected tvp in any way because no one bunker rushed a toss, or used reapers against them. And marauders are just so good, for so little cost
On October 26 2010 05:38 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 05:06 Tazza wrote:
The supply before rax barely affects the tvp matchup at all. No one used reapers against protoss, and not many people did a bbs against terran. And if you can start out with so many units, you can harass. That's what terran is in sc2, its about harass. No other race can get t3 units as fast as you. You can get thors superfast, and even bcs really fast, but zerg and protoss take very long to get those units. And if you allow protoss to get a lot of temps and colossi, thats your fault. Temps and colossi require a crapload of gas, and therefore you need a lot of expansions. You don't let a toss do that, just like how a toss doesn't allow zergs to macro up like that in the pvz matchup I actually practiced a 2rax reaper into exp opening for WEEKS before the patch, and it was reallyllylyl strong... too bad I don't have it anymore eh ? - o-;;Saying you don't let a Protoss take a third is silly. You're conceding the point that Terran late game is horrible and we have to play aggressive as hell and/or get lucky early-midgame (hellion drops or lucky breaks/catching a bad protoss off guard with cloak banshee vs no robo). And since Protoss is on the defensive, if they don't screw up how can Terran win? Because it's really on the Protoss to play correct and just survive the aggression until their gas kicks in and they reach late game.
Hmmmmmm no one used reapers? Hmmmm..........
And I never said "Well you can't say tvp is balanced because zvp is balanced because they both require a race to "not let it get to the point"" Could you please link me to where I stated that?
My "Which is why TvP is balanced at most." statement was NOT a response to your second paragraph about BW.
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Hilarious thread. It´s like the mirror of the pre-patch zerg thread.
Next patch comes in 3 months, stick with it! : ]
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On October 26 2010 06:08 Tiny.pat wrote:
Hilarious thread. It´s like the mirror of the pre-patch zerg thread.
Next patch comes in 3 months, stick with it! : ]
Future me: "Omfg protoss is so imba"
Actually, I think the real problem is zerg, sorry to say, just has better overall players. I mean, there's Idra, who just switched to SC2 from the begining and has dominated with such a stable playstyle. And then there's cool, probably the best progamer from BW(besides the bonjwas and July Zerg, and Cool started earlier). If you take a look at boxer/nada, they're already at a top level. I think this is really showing how it's not so much race, but skill and talent.
Plus, terran just need to come up with new builds like zerg did. I mean, we figured out the 14 gas 14 pool, which dealt with most terran early pressure.
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Terran has more of a chance against lategame zerg then lategame Toss in the current situation in my opinion. Zerg might have been slightly worse than Terran in GSL1, but Fruitdealer was just that much better than all of the Terrans that it didn't matter. Now that the balance is closer, Zerg is cleaning house.
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While you're at it, please give me some lucky lotto numbers. I wanna hit that power ball this time.
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Terran had a multiple openings against Zerg that Zerg almost had no chance to defend against. Now Zerg can actually have an option to Counter and it's called OP ?
Maybe you should stop massing Mech as the answer to every Zerg Build and start playing better like everyone told Zerg to do as answer to every early push or harassment option Terran had/has against Zerg.
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Is this the part where zergs now tell terran they just have to get creative and they'll win?
Just get creative guys, make some Ravens!
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Specifically remember kawaii Rice saying "all zergs are just bad" about a month ago... Now hes in here complaining already... lol.
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On October 26 2010 07:21 bakedace wrote:
Specifically remember kawaii Rice saying "all zergs are just bad" about a month ago... Now hes in here complaining already... lol.
fortunately I can still say that most of them are bad except for a handful ^^; Winning games because T's haven't figured out viable solid play doesn't make a zerg good really.
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On October 26 2010 07:35 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 07:21 bakedace wrote:
Specifically remember kawaii Rice saying "all zergs are just bad" about a month ago... Now hes in here complaining already... lol. fortunately I can still say that most of them are bad except for a handful ^^; Winning games because T's haven't figured out viable solid play doesn't make a zerg good really.
Then what does?
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Well you sound just like those whiny zergs..
I know how it feels to be in that position so not going to tell you to suck it up.
As for your prediction, I don't think Zerg is going to win. The number of quality zergs right now compared to the Terrans + Toss isn't even close. Back in beta, it was a different story since all the progamers chose it. Only Idra (maybe) and Cool have GSL winning potential. Reason I mentioned Idra is they basically wiped his weakness with this patch. Zenio hasn't impressed me and Check still isn't much of a macro player. The rest are somewhat unknown or unimpressive.
Terran has Rainbow, Ensnare, NaDa, Boxer, and MVP. Rainbow and Ensnare showed a lot of strength in their GSL runs. NaDa and Boxer have the experience, and MVP was A-team progamer (1 of 3)
Protoss has NEXgenius, Sangho(#2), and JMC (#3).
I think any of these 8 (t+p) could beat any one of the other zergs easily. So then I feel it comes down to these 8 vs Idra/Cool where anything can happen.
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=126206¤tpage=All
OP previously claiming that Zerg was fine you just need to use nydus. Most of OP's threads have been whining about zerg/broodlord imba.
If you think playing "macro" vs zerg is giving him 10 free minutes to power up while you do the same sure you'll lose. Someone posted "lets me get 3 bases and then he overruns me" well yeah obviously, he got way more drones than you in a shorter time. I'll let you get an many bases as you want if I can get as many as I want, and I'll win with superior economy and superior reproduction.
Zerg doesn't magically have a superior economy, they simply can pump drones instead of units, so it means there is a window where they have less units than you. Thats what you need to pressure a lot. The plus side is if you pressure enough that he doesn't get many drones at his natural you can take a third base with full saturation and be *ahead* of zerg in economy.
Not claiming its the solution to all problems, but seriously you have to be agressive against a zerg user unless you're making an unstoppable mech army or something. It's all about the timing attacks (sound familar? oh yeah, bw TvZ)
I think zergs were learning to play zvt well at the same time the roach buff came, so there is a huge power swing right now. But I'm damn sure it wasn't anything to do with nydus, its just refining builds and learning defense timings.
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On October 26 2010 07:38 SCC-Faust wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 07:35 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 26 2010 07:21 bakedace wrote:
Specifically remember kawaii Rice saying "all zergs are just bad" about a month ago... Now hes in here complaining already... lol. fortunately I can still say that most of them are bad except for a handful ^^; Winning games because T's haven't figured out viable solid play doesn't make a zerg good really. Then what does?
When your mechanics are good (spawn larva/creep spread) and you understand the game rather than making ling/baneling and rolling players that don't know what to do besides what doesn't work oo;;
Edit: I'm winning games as zerg and I have no solid timings or anything like that. Shouldn't happen O O
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Notice how all the Terran players have yet to have come out admit their atrocities to us Zerg players. I just can't stop grinning =D
Of course there are Terran players who say, "well hey there was nothing wrong, Zerg players were eventually learning to adapt to the insane harass at the highest levels of play". But the problem I find with that is the fact that it required so much effort, so much skill, and a lot more luck to stay in the game and perform at that level compared to what the Terran players have at their disposal prepatch.
Terran tears are going to continue to come about, and listen I'm not gonna deny the fact that these tears can be genuine and absolutely justified but do not expect any sympathy from Zerg players. That is unless someone steps up and apologizes. Then we can all come to a mutual understanding... I hope.
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France2061 Posts
On October 26 2010 04:38 avilo wrote:Zergs right now are secretly smiling and trying to play off the "our race is so weak " card even when they know their race is now the strongest. I find it absolutely hilarious how biased Zerg players are and how their perception of game balance is horribly off to how the game actually is.
I really like this image of malevolent Zerg players sitting in a smoke-filled backroom chortling sinisterly. Not over the top at all. Weren't you one of the "learn to nydus" guys pre-patch? You reap what you sow.
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And so all the Terran players, just quietly ignore our posts that remind them of what the state of the SC2 community was prepatch...
Isn't there some historical event that is similar to this?
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On October 26 2010 07:45 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 07:38 SCC-Faust wrote:On October 26 2010 07:35 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 26 2010 07:21 bakedace wrote:
Specifically remember kawaii Rice saying "all zergs are just bad" about a month ago... Now hes in here complaining already... lol. fortunately I can still say that most of them are bad except for a handful ^^; Winning games because T's haven't figured out viable solid play doesn't make a zerg good really. Then what does? When your mechanics are good (spawn larva/creep spread) and you understand the game rather than making ling/baneling and rolling players that don't know what to do besides what doesn't work oo;; Edit: I'm winning games as zerg and I have no solid timings or anything like that. Shouldn't happen O O
These are like the exact words Zergs had to say about pre-patch terran. I agree that shouldn't be the case but we are just going in circles here
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On October 26 2010 07:56 kNyTTyM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 07:45 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 26 2010 07:38 SCC-Faust wrote:On October 26 2010 07:35 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 26 2010 07:21 bakedace wrote:
Specifically remember kawaii Rice saying "all zergs are just bad" about a month ago... Now hes in here complaining already... lol. fortunately I can still say that most of them are bad except for a handful ^^; Winning games because T's haven't figured out viable solid play doesn't make a zerg good really. Then what does? When your mechanics are good (spawn larva/creep spread) and you understand the game rather than making ling/baneling and rolling players that don't know what to do besides what doesn't work oo;; Edit: I'm winning games as zerg and I have no solid timings or anything like that. Shouldn't happen O O These are like the exact words Zergs had to say about pre-patch terran. I agree that shouldn't be the case but we are just going in circles here
You stole my words. I remember those days playing as terran and doing whatever i want. also, if youre winning on no build order/ good timing, then youre just playing terrible people. and dont even start with the blah blah he was 4000+ diamond doublerainbow league terran and i was 1 base bs.
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On October 26 2010 07:43 Slayer91 wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=126206¤tpage=AllOP previously claiming that Zerg was fine you just need to use nydus. Most of OP's threads have been whining about zerg/broodlord imba. If you think playing "macro" vs zerg is giving him 10 free minutes to power up while you do the same sure you'll lose. Someone posted "lets me get 3 bases and then he overruns me" well yeah obviously, he got way more drones than you in a shorter time. I'll let you get an many bases as you want if I can get as many as I want, and I'll win with superior economy and superior reproduction. Zerg doesn't magically have a superior economy, they simply can pump drones instead of units, so it means there is a window where they have less units than you. Thats what you need to pressure a lot. The plus side is if you pressure enough that he doesn't get many drones at his natural you can take a third base with full saturation and be *ahead* of zerg in economy. Not claiming its the solution to all problems, but seriously you have to be agressive against a zerg user unless you're making an unstoppable mech army or something. It's all about the timing attacks (sound familar? oh yeah, bw TvZ) I think zergs were learning to play zvt well at the same time the roach buff came, so there is a huge power swing right now. But I'm damn sure it wasn't anything to do with nydus, its just refining builds and learning defense timings. Rofl, wow! :O
I made my earlier post half in jest. I didn't know the OP was the same guy. Realizing the OP here is the same guy I was joking about makes me cringe. OP do you know how hypocritical you look? o.O
My previous post for reference: On October 26 2010 05:09 Tsagacity wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 05:05 SCC-Faust wrote:
This is ironic.
People made fun of Zerg players pre-patch, saying "all you need to do is change your style".
You know, the whole 'just figure it out' deal. And now when Terran's early game gets nerfed, the same people who insulted Zerg players for being upset in the first place are the ones crying and not even heeding their original advice.
If Zerg figured out how to deal with Terran, then maybe it is time some Terran players learn something other than reaper openings and proxy barracks. Everyone is one-dimensional, playing with siege tank/marine, then saying how imbalanced this shit is when they can't even adjust lol. I'm not saying anything in regards to balance, I just find it so funny. Especially when players like QXC and Brat_OK are prime examples of people who are experimenting and finding success with other builds. I'm enjoying it thoroughly as well. So many ZvT responses last month along the lines of "No you just have to get creative! Use nydus!" Z is op in ZvT? Nope. Terrans just need to get more creative with ravens!
Wow, and it just keeps getting better...
On October 26 2010 04:38 avilo wrote:
I find it absolutely hilarious how biased Zerg players are and how their perception of game balance is horribly off to how the game actually is. Yeah. We're obviously the biased ones /sarcasm
I've been guessing that Z would be OP since I saw the new patch notes, but I'm going to thoroughly enjoy rubbing zerg dominance in considering you're the guy that blamed the players last patch and told them to use nydus more.
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On October 26 2010 04:38 avilo wrote:
If it's a PvZ in the finals, it is a toss-up.
lol was this pun intentional?
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I like how +1 roach range TURNED THE TABLES COMPLETELY and now zerg is obviously way way way way way more powerful than terran. Because I mean let's look at all the circumstances you would use roaches in TvZ:
Whew that should be about all of them, sorry for the long post but roaches are just so fucking versatile.
And hatch first? Please, as if you BBSed every game, hah.
Top zergs are just improving faster than top terrans, because it's necesarry. Zerg is simply much harder to play. I've tried doing ladder games as T and it's a laugh, I didn't drop a single point of rating, while Morrow dropped 700 and was still falling going from T to Z.
Man up, +1 range didn't change shit and you didn't stop hatch-first builds before. Boo hoo you can't abuse overpowered reapers any more and have to learn how to actually play the game by getting more than 1 base.
Zerg mid to late game is simply overdeveloped in comparison to T's because all T would do was abuse an imbalanced early game to give them a free pass through the mid/late, they didn't need to learn any timings, army positioning, compositions or micro because it wouldn't matter you could a-move with your free advantage.
Meh I might offend some newbie terrans with this post but oh well, the OP pretty much invited for a flame fest so I guess I took the bait.
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I think a big factor is that for a long time there was alot more people playing terran than zerg (don't know how it's changed since the patch.)
People didn't get to practise their vZ versus good zerg's atleast, and every zerg out there was practising their ass off trying to find any way to beat terran.
Basically vT is everyones strongest matchup, combine that with patch and you have something that looks like an unbalance. If this "imbalance" is still here in a few weeks or a month then you can start saying zerg is OP or whatever.
tl;dr: Give it some time.
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On October 26 2010 05:57 frogmelter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 05:48 Tazza wrote:On October 26 2010 05:27 frogmelter wrote:On October 26 2010 05:18 Tazza wrote:On October 26 2010 05:11 frogmelter wrote:On October 26 2010 05:06 Tazza wrote:On October 26 2010 04:56 frogmelter wrote:Well as of right now, I agree that zerg has a massive advantage over Terran. Roaches can block any harassment that you do and if don't pressure zerg, they have a million and a half more drones than you do. Zerg lategame is really difficult to deal with as Terran. Zerg lategame with zerg having an economic advantage is even more difficult. You have to rely on the zerg making some crazy errors. Since these people are pros, it's unlikely that such an error would occur. So yes, I second the thought that Zerg is going to win the GSLs quite handily UNLESS another patch comes. On October 26 2010 04:56 Tazza wrote:
Zergs had to deal with much worse for 3 months. Stop complaining. The game is a lot more balanced than before the patch. Hellions are still very very strong units in early game, and its still hard for zergs to deal with multipronged drops. And marauders are still really good, and auto repair with thors is still deadly. And you guys still have the most imba mu in the game right now in tvp, where t holds a strong hand. Its been like what, a week since the new patch? We had to deal with it for 3 months, with real hardships, you're just complaining that you don't get free wins from zerg anymore You are kidding me. TvP is not Terran favored. It's true that Terran early game is stronger than Protoss early game, but with the depot before rax junk it's not as big of an advantage. Protoss late game totally trashes Terran. Think about it this way. For Terran, you start out with marines, marauders, medivacs, and maybe ghosts and maybe vikings. When you end, you end with the same exact units. Except Protoss late game can spam 75 energy temps and Colossi that deal over a hundred damage per shot. And just because zerg was underpowered at a point does not make for a good argument that zerg should be overpowered for a time period 'to make up for it'. The supply before rax barely affects the tvp matchup at all. No one used reapers against protoss, and not many people did a bbs against terran. And if you can start out with so many units, you can harass. That's what terran is in sc2, its about harass. No other race can get t3 units as fast as you. You can get thors superfast, and even bcs really fast, but zerg and protoss take very long to get those units. And if you allow protoss to get a lot of temps and colossi, thats your fault. Temps and colossi require a crapload of gas, and therefore you need a lot of expansions. You don't let a toss do that, just like how a toss doesn't allow zergs to macro up like that in the pvz matchup I never liked the reasoning "don't let it get up to that point". With the 1 gate FE pretty much safe and standard, 2 base Protoss can go colossus into templar pretty easily while taking a third. 3 bases, or even 2, is enough for a critical mass of colossus or HT. My point wasn't "don't let it get up to that point" My point was, you don't let a toss to expand freely. If he's stuck on 2 bases for a while, he will not have enough gas to constantly pump out templars and collossi, while getting the upgrades for them. And its not easy for toss to get extra bases. Their army is pretty immobile, and you can take the expos out with a few multipronged attacks. Stimmed marauders kill buildings super fast, and are really great units against protoss gateway units. And to the "don't let it get up to that point" argument, a lot of starcraft is about that. In pvz, thats what its all about, the toss can't let the zerg be on 5-6 fully saturated bases, because they know they'll be overrrun. So toss has to make good timing attacks to stop this. This doesn't stop pvz from being imba, it is one of the most balance mus in the game, and even slightly favors protoss. Even in BW, a lot of tvz was about not letting zerg get that 4th gas, and pushing out with 1 vessel, 3 tanks, and mnm to stop the zerg. Which is why TvP is balanced at most. I still don't see how T>>>P in TvP. And it really depends on the positions. I'll agree that TvP on close positions is a fair bit easier, but far positions let the protoss expand a lot more freely. It's not really about 'letting' the protoss expand freely. Obviously Terran should have units at the expansions constantly scouting. Protoss just needs to expand when there's a good enough timing for it [after an army trade or something of that sort]. Well you can't say tvp is balanced because zvp is balanced because they both require a race to "not let it get to the point" And I still believe it is imba, because tvp was imba before the patches, and the patches have done absolutely nothing, except for the tank nerf, but even then, tanks weren't used much in tvp, as they were hardcountered by immortals, and could be lifted up by phoenix, etc. And you cannot say that the depot before barracks or the reaper nerf affected tvp in any way because no one bunker rushed a toss, or used reapers against them. And marauders are just so good, for so little cost Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 05:38 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 26 2010 05:06 Tazza wrote:
The supply before rax barely affects the tvp matchup at all. No one used reapers against protoss, and not many people did a bbs against terran. And if you can start out with so many units, you can harass. That's what terran is in sc2, its about harass. No other race can get t3 units as fast as you. You can get thors superfast, and even bcs really fast, but zerg and protoss take very long to get those units. And if you allow protoss to get a lot of temps and colossi, thats your fault. Temps and colossi require a crapload of gas, and therefore you need a lot of expansions. You don't let a toss do that, just like how a toss doesn't allow zergs to macro up like that in the pvz matchup I actually practiced a 2rax reaper into exp opening for WEEKS before the patch, and it was reallyllylyl strong... too bad I don't have it anymore eh ? - o-;;Saying you don't let a Protoss take a third is silly. You're conceding the point that Terran late game is horrible and we have to play aggressive as hell and/or get lucky early-midgame (hellion drops or lucky breaks/catching a bad protoss off guard with cloak banshee vs no robo). And since Protoss is on the defensive, if they don't screw up how can Terran win? Because it's really on the Protoss to play correct and just survive the aggression until their gas kicks in and they reach late game. Hmmmmmm no one used reapers? Hmmmm.......... And I never said "Well you can't say tvp is balanced because zvp is balanced because they both require a race to "not let it get to the point"" Could you please link me to where I stated that? My "Which is why TvP is balanced at most." statement was NOT a response to your second paragraph about BW.
You said "which is why tvp is balanced at most" What were you referring to then? And my second paragraph was not entirely about bw. You have still not made a single valid point that would say that tvp is now a balanced matchup. Listen, there were about 100 victories by terran in all tournaments so far, only about 20 wins for zerg, and a few more wins for protoss. There were 4 out of 8 terrans in quarterfinals of gsl, 3 out of 4 in semifinals, without a single protoss. Now tell me that tvp wasn 't balanced before. If it was, there would have been a fairly somilar number of toss and terrans, but terrans dominated the entire game, meaning they had advantages against both races. Now with the patches, zvt might be better balanced, but there really isn't a single nerf/buff for terran or protoss that changed how the matchup is played.
And reapers were never used in tvp, so don't even go there. Kinda like hydras against terran
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On October 26 2010 08:40 Tazza wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 05:57 frogmelter wrote:On October 26 2010 05:48 Tazza wrote:On October 26 2010 05:27 frogmelter wrote:On October 26 2010 05:18 Tazza wrote:On October 26 2010 05:11 frogmelter wrote:On October 26 2010 05:06 Tazza wrote:On October 26 2010 04:56 frogmelter wrote:Well as of right now, I agree that zerg has a massive advantage over Terran. Roaches can block any harassment that you do and if don't pressure zerg, they have a million and a half more drones than you do. Zerg lategame is really difficult to deal with as Terran. Zerg lategame with zerg having an economic advantage is even more difficult. You have to rely on the zerg making some crazy errors. Since these people are pros, it's unlikely that such an error would occur. So yes, I second the thought that Zerg is going to win the GSLs quite handily UNLESS another patch comes. On October 26 2010 04:56 Tazza wrote:
Zergs had to deal with much worse for 3 months. Stop complaining. The game is a lot more balanced than before the patch. Hellions are still very very strong units in early game, and its still hard for zergs to deal with multipronged drops. And marauders are still really good, and auto repair with thors is still deadly. And you guys still have the most imba mu in the game right now in tvp, where t holds a strong hand. Its been like what, a week since the new patch? We had to deal with it for 3 months, with real hardships, you're just complaining that you don't get free wins from zerg anymore You are kidding me. TvP is not Terran favored. It's true that Terran early game is stronger than Protoss early game, but with the depot before rax junk it's not as big of an advantage. Protoss late game totally trashes Terran. Think about it this way. For Terran, you start out with marines, marauders, medivacs, and maybe ghosts and maybe vikings. When you end, you end with the same exact units. Except Protoss late game can spam 75 energy temps and Colossi that deal over a hundred damage per shot. And just because zerg was underpowered at a point does not make for a good argument that zerg should be overpowered for a time period 'to make up for it'. The supply before rax barely affects the tvp matchup at all. No one used reapers against protoss, and not many people did a bbs against terran. And if you can start out with so many units, you can harass. That's what terran is in sc2, its about harass. No other race can get t3 units as fast as you. You can get thors superfast, and even bcs really fast, but zerg and protoss take very long to get those units. And if you allow protoss to get a lot of temps and colossi, thats your fault. Temps and colossi require a crapload of gas, and therefore you need a lot of expansions. You don't let a toss do that, just like how a toss doesn't allow zergs to macro up like that in the pvz matchup I never liked the reasoning "don't let it get up to that point". With the 1 gate FE pretty much safe and standard, 2 base Protoss can go colossus into templar pretty easily while taking a third. 3 bases, or even 2, is enough for a critical mass of colossus or HT. My point wasn't "don't let it get up to that point" My point was, you don't let a toss to expand freely. If he's stuck on 2 bases for a while, he will not have enough gas to constantly pump out templars and collossi, while getting the upgrades for them. And its not easy for toss to get extra bases. Their army is pretty immobile, and you can take the expos out with a few multipronged attacks. Stimmed marauders kill buildings super fast, and are really great units against protoss gateway units. And to the "don't let it get up to that point" argument, a lot of starcraft is about that. In pvz, thats what its all about, the toss can't let the zerg be on 5-6 fully saturated bases, because they know they'll be overrrun. So toss has to make good timing attacks to stop this. This doesn't stop pvz from being imba, it is one of the most balance mus in the game, and even slightly favors protoss. Even in BW, a lot of tvz was about not letting zerg get that 4th gas, and pushing out with 1 vessel, 3 tanks, and mnm to stop the zerg. Which is why TvP is balanced at most. I still don't see how T>>>P in TvP. And it really depends on the positions. I'll agree that TvP on close positions is a fair bit easier, but far positions let the protoss expand a lot more freely. It's not really about 'letting' the protoss expand freely. Obviously Terran should have units at the expansions constantly scouting. Protoss just needs to expand when there's a good enough timing for it [after an army trade or something of that sort]. Well you can't say tvp is balanced because zvp is balanced because they both require a race to "not let it get to the point" And I still believe it is imba, because tvp was imba before the patches, and the patches have done absolutely nothing, except for the tank nerf, but even then, tanks weren't used much in tvp, as they were hardcountered by immortals, and could be lifted up by phoenix, etc. And you cannot say that the depot before barracks or the reaper nerf affected tvp in any way because no one bunker rushed a toss, or used reapers against them. And marauders are just so good, for so little cost On October 26 2010 05:38 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 26 2010 05:06 Tazza wrote:
The supply before rax barely affects the tvp matchup at all. No one used reapers against protoss, and not many people did a bbs against terran. And if you can start out with so many units, you can harass. That's what terran is in sc2, its about harass. No other race can get t3 units as fast as you. You can get thors superfast, and even bcs really fast, but zerg and protoss take very long to get those units. And if you allow protoss to get a lot of temps and colossi, thats your fault. Temps and colossi require a crapload of gas, and therefore you need a lot of expansions. You don't let a toss do that, just like how a toss doesn't allow zergs to macro up like that in the pvz matchup I actually practiced a 2rax reaper into exp opening for WEEKS before the patch, and it was reallyllylyl strong... too bad I don't have it anymore eh ? - o-;;Saying you don't let a Protoss take a third is silly. You're conceding the point that Terran late game is horrible and we have to play aggressive as hell and/or get lucky early-midgame (hellion drops or lucky breaks/catching a bad protoss off guard with cloak banshee vs no robo). And since Protoss is on the defensive, if they don't screw up how can Terran win? Because it's really on the Protoss to play correct and just survive the aggression until their gas kicks in and they reach late game. Hmmmmmm no one used reapers? Hmmmm.......... And I never said "Well you can't say tvp is balanced because zvp is balanced because they both require a race to "not let it get to the point"" Could you please link me to where I stated that? My "Which is why TvP is balanced at most." statement was NOT a response to your second paragraph about BW. You said "which is why tvp is balanced at most" What were you referring to then? And my second paragraph was not entirely about bw. You have still not made a single valid point that would say that tvp is now a balanced matchup. Listen, there were about 100 victories by terran in all tournaments so far, only about 20 wins for zerg, and a few more wins for protoss. There were 4 out of 8 terrans in quarterfinals of gsl, 3 out of 4 in semifinals, without a single protoss. Now tell me that tvp wasn 't balanced before. If it was, there would have been a fairly somilar number of toss and terrans, but terrans dominated the entire game, meaning they had advantages against both races. Now with the patches, zvt might be better balanced, but there really isn't a single nerf/buff for terran or protoss that changed how the matchup is played. And reapers were never used in tvp, so don't even go there. Kinda like hydras against terran
Talk to QXC about reapers vs Protoss. Yes they were used. He loves Reapers vs Protoss. KawaiiRice said he had a 2 rax reaper build vs Protoss. Yes, they were not common, but they worked.
And I said it's balanced AT MOST. Meaning that I believe it to be Protoss favored, but I'm willing to consider it balanced as an argument. Saying Terran is favored in TvP is not an argument that I'm really going to take seriously.
Blizzard's statistics say that TvP is Protoss favored.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163596
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163764¤tpage=All
This will be my last post on TvP in this thread. Any more would be considered derailing the topic. PM me if you wish to discuss.
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I was really hoping this wasn't just going to be a pure QQ post... but it is :<
Pretty lame.
Also, I know BoxeR is a hero and I admire him too... but come on guys, he's not at the level of winning GSL. SangHo or Fruitdealer would crush him.
Edit: lololol the fact that the OP actually MADE A THREAD with "l2nydus" in the title is just too awesome for me to comprehend right now.
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On October 26 2010 09:05 Subversion wrote:
I was really hoping this wasn't just going to be a pure QQ post... but it is :<
Pretty lame.
Also, I know BoxeR is a hero and I admire him too... but come on guys, he's not at the level of winning GSL. SangHo or Fruitdealer would crush him.
I agree. SangHo fighting!
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I am so sick and tired of this. The patch has been out for two weeks! Unless you have a crystal ball, you're really just making things up so you can complain. Terrans need to spend at least another month or two developing new strategies that don't rely on the Zerg losing half of their drones to hellions or reapers in the first five minutes of the game. If Zerg players are still winning more of their games at that time, then we can discuss imbalance. But please, the patch is so new that saying anything about balance is premature. Let strategies settle. Be patient. Then if there's still a problem, Blizzard will patch it. Until then, your energy is better spent trying to develop new strategies instead of whining to Blizzard to fix it.
That said, Terran late game does seem a little weak at the moment and mutalisks feel pretty strong. But I'm not sure if that's because of inherent balance issues or because Terran players don't really have as good of strategies or timings post-patch. The patch destroyed Terran strategy, so it'll take time to adjust to the point where we can comment on balance. It's expected that Zerg win rate would shoot up after this patch, because all Zerg strategies only gained viability while many Terran strategies lost viability.
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On October 26 2010 07:46 Snuggles wrote:
Notice how all the Terran players have yet to have come out admit their atrocities to us Zerg players. I just can't stop grinning =D
Of course there are Terran players who say, "well hey there was nothing wrong, Zerg players were eventually learning to adapt to the insane harass at the highest levels of play". But the problem I find with that is the fact that it required so much effort, so much skill, and a lot more luck to stay in the game and perform at that level compared to what the Terran players have at their disposal prepatch.
Terran tears are going to continue to come about, and listen I'm not gonna deny the fact that these tears can be genuine and absolutely justified but do not expect any sympathy from Zerg players. That is unless someone steps up and apologizes. Then we can all come to a mutual understanding... I hope.
This reminds me of the prisoner and warden experiment.
Anyways, the problem with this line of logic is that you are assuming that no Terran players gave sympathy to the Zerg, which is untrue.
Let's say 60% of Terrans were unsympathetic and 40% were sympathetic. Does that means you need to treat the 40% that were sympathetic like they weren't?
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It is not that zerg will win gsl2, it is that fruitdealer will win gsl2
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On October 26 2010 09:37 frogmelter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 07:46 Snuggles wrote:
Notice how all the Terran players have yet to have come out admit their atrocities to us Zerg players. I just can't stop grinning =D
Of course there are Terran players who say, "well hey there was nothing wrong, Zerg players were eventually learning to adapt to the insane harass at the highest levels of play". But the problem I find with that is the fact that it required so much effort, so much skill, and a lot more luck to stay in the game and perform at that level compared to what the Terran players have at their disposal prepatch.
Terran tears are going to continue to come about, and listen I'm not gonna deny the fact that these tears can be genuine and absolutely justified but do not expect any sympathy from Zerg players. That is unless someone steps up and apologizes. Then we can all come to a mutual understanding... I hope. This reminds me of the prisoner and warden experiment. Anyways, the problem with this line of logic is that you are assuming that no Terran players gave sympathy to the Zerg, which is untrue. Let's say 60% of Terrans were unsympathetic and 40% were sympathetic. Does that means you need to treat the 40% that were sympathetic like they weren't?
Now don't get me wrong, I haven't typed out all there is to cover all the possible holes in my post. Typing "all the Terrans" was wrong, and I'm man enough to apologize for that.
I honestly feel bad for players who play Terran, no sarcasm at all. Because I know for a fact there are a lot of fantastic Terran players out there, and they will be tainted by the fact that most Terran players were very unsympathetic to Zerg players, while they acknowledged the issues in the ZvT Match-Up and openly discussed reasonable solutions to it.
However, because of people like Avilo, the other 60%, Terran will be branded as a race that is played by people who are hypocrites and so on. I mean seriously after reading that topic that Avilo made before the patch, I can only /facepalm. Hard evidence unrefutable right there.
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I don't care either way, I'm protoss. Marauders AND Roaches beat stalkers by cost. You're all imba.
Hang in there JMC.
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Hm, Zerg OP?
On September 09 2010 09:47 avilo wrote:
solution: play the game it is and get better at it.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=151402#7
I actually think that you're way off base with your predictions on GSL. There are plenty of great T, Z, and P players (Boxer, Nada, SangHo, Idra), and I think any of them have a decent shot at winning.
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On October 26 2010 09:59 Snuggles wrote:
Now don't get me wrong, I haven't typed out all there is to cover all the possible holes in my post. Typing "all the Terrans" was wrong, and I'm man enough to apologize for that.
I honestly feel bad for players who play Terran, no sarcasm at all. Because I know for a fact there are a lot of fantastic Terran players out there, and they will be tainted by the fact that most Terran players were very unsympathetic to Zerg players, while they acknowledged the issues in the ZvT Match-Up and openly discussed reasonable solutions to it.
However, because of people like Avilo, the other 60%, Terran will be branded as a race that is played by people who are hypocrites and so on. I mean seriously after reading that topic that Avilo made before the patch, I can only /facepalm. Hard evidence unrefutable right there.
There are quite a few big name Terrans who were calling for a nerf on TvZ early game. Morrow was one of them. I could not remember the rest.
Anyway, it puzzles me when most people still think the the +1 range on roaches is what Terran complains about. Z players say: "Stop qqing how could +1 range break a match up????" I could not care less if the roach have +1 range I just trashed 3 Zerg players in a row who think that now roach is their ultimate weapon.
The reason why TvZ is hard is because Zerg late game has ALWAYS been better. Z was losing prepatch because they could not defend early attacks to get to the point that they can win. Now that weakness has been fixed and they are raping Terrans left and right. It is as simple as that.
I agree with the patch because the game is only balance when both races has equal chance at every stage of the game. One race is good early and the other is good late game is not balance.
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On October 26 2010 08:51 frogmelter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 08:40 Tazza wrote:On October 26 2010 05:57 frogmelter wrote:On October 26 2010 05:48 Tazza wrote:On October 26 2010 05:27 frogmelter wrote:On October 26 2010 05:18 Tazza wrote:On October 26 2010 05:11 frogmelter wrote:On October 26 2010 05:06 Tazza wrote:On October 26 2010 04:56 frogmelter wrote:Well as of right now, I agree that zerg has a massive advantage over Terran. Roaches can block any harassment that you do and if don't pressure zerg, they have a million and a half more drones than you do. Zerg lategame is really difficult to deal with as Terran. Zerg lategame with zerg having an economic advantage is even more difficult. You have to rely on the zerg making some crazy errors. Since these people are pros, it's unlikely that such an error would occur. So yes, I second the thought that Zerg is going to win the GSLs quite handily UNLESS another patch comes. On October 26 2010 04:56 Tazza wrote:
Zergs had to deal with much worse for 3 months. Stop complaining. The game is a lot more balanced than before the patch. Hellions are still very very strong units in early game, and its still hard for zergs to deal with multipronged drops. And marauders are still really good, and auto repair with thors is still deadly. And you guys still have the most imba mu in the game right now in tvp, where t holds a strong hand. Its been like what, a week since the new patch? We had to deal with it for 3 months, with real hardships, you're just complaining that you don't get free wins from zerg anymore You are kidding me. TvP is not Terran favored. It's true that Terran early game is stronger than Protoss early game, but with the depot before rax junk it's not as big of an advantage. Protoss late game totally trashes Terran. Think about it this way. For Terran, you start out with marines, marauders, medivacs, and maybe ghosts and maybe vikings. When you end, you end with the same exact units. Except Protoss late game can spam 75 energy temps and Colossi that deal over a hundred damage per shot. And just because zerg was underpowered at a point does not make for a good argument that zerg should be overpowered for a time period 'to make up for it'. The supply before rax barely affects the tvp matchup at all. No one used reapers against protoss, and not many people did a bbs against terran. And if you can start out with so many units, you can harass. That's what terran is in sc2, its about harass. No other race can get t3 units as fast as you. You can get thors superfast, and even bcs really fast, but zerg and protoss take very long to get those units. And if you allow protoss to get a lot of temps and colossi, thats your fault. Temps and colossi require a crapload of gas, and therefore you need a lot of expansions. You don't let a toss do that, just like how a toss doesn't allow zergs to macro up like that in the pvz matchup I never liked the reasoning "don't let it get up to that point". With the 1 gate FE pretty much safe and standard, 2 base Protoss can go colossus into templar pretty easily while taking a third. 3 bases, or even 2, is enough for a critical mass of colossus or HT. My point wasn't "don't let it get up to that point" My point was, you don't let a toss to expand freely. If he's stuck on 2 bases for a while, he will not have enough gas to constantly pump out templars and collossi, while getting the upgrades for them. And its not easy for toss to get extra bases. Their army is pretty immobile, and you can take the expos out with a few multipronged attacks. Stimmed marauders kill buildings super fast, and are really great units against protoss gateway units. And to the "don't let it get up to that point" argument, a lot of starcraft is about that. In pvz, thats what its all about, the toss can't let the zerg be on 5-6 fully saturated bases, because they know they'll be overrrun. So toss has to make good timing attacks to stop this. This doesn't stop pvz from being imba, it is one of the most balance mus in the game, and even slightly favors protoss. Even in BW, a lot of tvz was about not letting zerg get that 4th gas, and pushing out with 1 vessel, 3 tanks, and mnm to stop the zerg. Which is why TvP is balanced at most. I still don't see how T>>>P in TvP. And it really depends on the positions. I'll agree that TvP on close positions is a fair bit easier, but far positions let the protoss expand a lot more freely. It's not really about 'letting' the protoss expand freely. Obviously Terran should have units at the expansions constantly scouting. Protoss just needs to expand when there's a good enough timing for it [after an army trade or something of that sort]. Well you can't say tvp is balanced because zvp is balanced because they both require a race to "not let it get to the point" And I still believe it is imba, because tvp was imba before the patches, and the patches have done absolutely nothing, except for the tank nerf, but even then, tanks weren't used much in tvp, as they were hardcountered by immortals, and could be lifted up by phoenix, etc. And you cannot say that the depot before barracks or the reaper nerf affected tvp in any way because no one bunker rushed a toss, or used reapers against them. And marauders are just so good, for so little cost On October 26 2010 05:38 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 26 2010 05:06 Tazza wrote:
The supply before rax barely affects the tvp matchup at all. No one used reapers against protoss, and not many people did a bbs against terran. And if you can start out with so many units, you can harass. That's what terran is in sc2, its about harass. No other race can get t3 units as fast as you. You can get thors superfast, and even bcs really fast, but zerg and protoss take very long to get those units. And if you allow protoss to get a lot of temps and colossi, thats your fault. Temps and colossi require a crapload of gas, and therefore you need a lot of expansions. You don't let a toss do that, just like how a toss doesn't allow zergs to macro up like that in the pvz matchup I actually practiced a 2rax reaper into exp opening for WEEKS before the patch, and it was reallyllylyl strong... too bad I don't have it anymore eh ? - o-;;Saying you don't let a Protoss take a third is silly. You're conceding the point that Terran late game is horrible and we have to play aggressive as hell and/or get lucky early-midgame (hellion drops or lucky breaks/catching a bad protoss off guard with cloak banshee vs no robo). And since Protoss is on the defensive, if they don't screw up how can Terran win? Because it's really on the Protoss to play correct and just survive the aggression until their gas kicks in and they reach late game. Hmmmmmm no one used reapers? Hmmmm.......... And I never said "Well you can't say tvp is balanced because zvp is balanced because they both require a race to "not let it get to the point"" Could you please link me to where I stated that? My "Which is why TvP is balanced at most." statement was NOT a response to your second paragraph about BW. You said "which is why tvp is balanced at most" What were you referring to then? And my second paragraph was not entirely about bw. You have still not made a single valid point that would say that tvp is now a balanced matchup. Listen, there were about 100 victories by terran in all tournaments so far, only about 20 wins for zerg, and a few more wins for protoss. There were 4 out of 8 terrans in quarterfinals of gsl, 3 out of 4 in semifinals, without a single protoss. Now tell me that tvp wasn 't balanced before. If it was, there would have been a fairly somilar number of toss and terrans, but terrans dominated the entire game, meaning they had advantages against both races. Now with the patches, zvt might be better balanced, but there really isn't a single nerf/buff for terran or protoss that changed how the matchup is played. And reapers were never used in tvp, so don't even go there. Kinda like hydras against terran Talk to QXC about reapers vs Protoss. Yes they were used. He loves Reapers vs Protoss. KawaiiRice said he had a 2 rax reaper build vs Protoss. Yes, they were not common, but they worked. And I said it's balanced AT MOST. Meaning that I believe it to be Protoss favored, but I'm willing to consider it balanced as an argument. Saying Terran is favored in TvP is not an argument that I'm really going to take seriously. Blizzard's statistics say that TvP is Protoss favored. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163596http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163764¤tpage=AllThis will be my last post on TvP in this thread. Any more would be considered derailing the topic. PM me if you wish to discuss.
My point is that reapers aren't common units, they are only made in special cases, and most likely cheese. Of course these units get used sometimes. Hell, even scouts were used a few times in pro games. And Blizzard stats don't really mean shit. The stats that matter are the amount of terrans winning, and competing in tournaments last year, meaning terran had the advantage. Now, the patches have helped the zvt mu, but the pvt mu is still terran favored, as there was not a patch that really did anything to the matchup. And those aren't stats at ALL. I don't see any numbers anywhere, and blizz only does stats for diamond leagues, and etc, not pros, which is what really matters, because pros can defend a 4gate
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On October 26 2010 12:15 Tazza wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 08:51 frogmelter wrote:On October 26 2010 08:40 Tazza wrote:On October 26 2010 05:57 frogmelter wrote:On October 26 2010 05:48 Tazza wrote:On October 26 2010 05:27 frogmelter wrote:On October 26 2010 05:18 Tazza wrote:On October 26 2010 05:11 frogmelter wrote:On October 26 2010 05:06 Tazza wrote:On October 26 2010 04:56 frogmelter wrote:
Well as of right now, I agree that zerg has a massive advantage over Terran.
Roaches can block any harassment that you do and if don't pressure zerg, they have a million and a half more drones than you do.
Zerg lategame is really difficult to deal with as Terran. Zerg lategame with zerg having an economic advantage is even more difficult. You have to rely on the zerg making some crazy errors. Since these people are pros, it's unlikely that such an error would occur.
So yes, I second the thought that Zerg is going to win the GSLs quite handily UNLESS another patch comes.
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You are kidding me. TvP is not Terran favored. It's true that Terran early game is stronger than Protoss early game, but with the depot before rax junk it's not as big of an advantage. Protoss late game totally trashes Terran.
Think about it this way. For Terran, you start out with marines, marauders, medivacs, and maybe ghosts and maybe vikings. When you end, you end with the same exact units.
Except Protoss late game can spam 75 energy temps and Colossi that deal over a hundred damage per shot.
And just because zerg was underpowered at a point does not make for a good argument that zerg should be overpowered for a time period 'to make up for it'. The supply before rax barely affects the tvp matchup at all. No one used reapers against protoss, and not many people did a bbs against terran. And if you can start out with so many units, you can harass. That's what terran is in sc2, its about harass. No other race can get t3 units as fast as you. You can get thors superfast, and even bcs really fast, but zerg and protoss take very long to get those units. And if you allow protoss to get a lot of temps and colossi, thats your fault. Temps and colossi require a crapload of gas, and therefore you need a lot of expansions. You don't let a toss do that, just like how a toss doesn't allow zergs to macro up like that in the pvz matchup I never liked the reasoning "don't let it get up to that point". With the 1 gate FE pretty much safe and standard, 2 base Protoss can go colossus into templar pretty easily while taking a third. 3 bases, or even 2, is enough for a critical mass of colossus or HT. My point wasn't "don't let it get up to that point" My point was, you don't let a toss to expand freely. If he's stuck on 2 bases for a while, he will not have enough gas to constantly pump out templars and collossi, while getting the upgrades for them. And its not easy for toss to get extra bases. Their army is pretty immobile, and you can take the expos out with a few multipronged attacks. Stimmed marauders kill buildings super fast, and are really great units against protoss gateway units. And to the "don't let it get up to that point" argument, a lot of starcraft is about that. In pvz, thats what its all about, the toss can't let the zerg be on 5-6 fully saturated bases, because they know they'll be overrrun. So toss has to make good timing attacks to stop this. This doesn't stop pvz from being imba, it is one of the most balance mus in the game, and even slightly favors protoss. Even in BW, a lot of tvz was about not letting zerg get that 4th gas, and pushing out with 1 vessel, 3 tanks, and mnm to stop the zerg. Which is why TvP is balanced at most. I still don't see how T>>>P in TvP. And it really depends on the positions. I'll agree that TvP on close positions is a fair bit easier, but far positions let the protoss expand a lot more freely. It's not really about 'letting' the protoss expand freely. Obviously Terran should have units at the expansions constantly scouting. Protoss just needs to expand when there's a good enough timing for it [after an army trade or something of that sort]. Well you can't say tvp is balanced because zvp is balanced because they both require a race to "not let it get to the point" And I still believe it is imba, because tvp was imba before the patches, and the patches have done absolutely nothing, except for the tank nerf, but even then, tanks weren't used much in tvp, as they were hardcountered by immortals, and could be lifted up by phoenix, etc. And you cannot say that the depot before barracks or the reaper nerf affected tvp in any way because no one bunker rushed a toss, or used reapers against them. And marauders are just so good, for so little cost On October 26 2010 05:38 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 26 2010 05:06 Tazza wrote:
The supply before rax barely affects the tvp matchup at all. No one used reapers against protoss, and not many people did a bbs against terran. And if you can start out with so many units, you can harass. That's what terran is in sc2, its about harass. No other race can get t3 units as fast as you. You can get thors superfast, and even bcs really fast, but zerg and protoss take very long to get those units. And if you allow protoss to get a lot of temps and colossi, thats your fault. Temps and colossi require a crapload of gas, and therefore you need a lot of expansions. You don't let a toss do that, just like how a toss doesn't allow zergs to macro up like that in the pvz matchup I actually practiced a 2rax reaper into exp opening for WEEKS before the patch, and it was reallyllylyl strong... too bad I don't have it anymore eh ? - o-;;Saying you don't let a Protoss take a third is silly. You're conceding the point that Terran late game is horrible and we have to play aggressive as hell and/or get lucky early-midgame (hellion drops or lucky breaks/catching a bad protoss off guard with cloak banshee vs no robo). And since Protoss is on the defensive, if they don't screw up how can Terran win? Because it's really on the Protoss to play correct and just survive the aggression until their gas kicks in and they reach late game. Hmmmmmm no one used reapers? Hmmmm.......... And I never said "Well you can't say tvp is balanced because zvp is balanced because they both require a race to "not let it get to the point"" Could you please link me to where I stated that? My "Which is why TvP is balanced at most." statement was NOT a response to your second paragraph about BW. You said "which is why tvp is balanced at most" What were you referring to then? And my second paragraph was not entirely about bw. You have still not made a single valid point that would say that tvp is now a balanced matchup. Listen, there were about 100 victories by terran in all tournaments so far, only about 20 wins for zerg, and a few more wins for protoss. There were 4 out of 8 terrans in quarterfinals of gsl, 3 out of 4 in semifinals, without a single protoss. Now tell me that tvp wasn 't balanced before. If it was, there would have been a fairly somilar number of toss and terrans, but terrans dominated the entire game, meaning they had advantages against both races. Now with the patches, zvt might be better balanced, but there really isn't a single nerf/buff for terran or protoss that changed how the matchup is played. And reapers were never used in tvp, so don't even go there. Kinda like hydras against terran Talk to QXC about reapers vs Protoss. Yes they were used. He loves Reapers vs Protoss. KawaiiRice said he had a 2 rax reaper build vs Protoss. Yes, they were not common, but they worked. And I said it's balanced AT MOST. Meaning that I believe it to be Protoss favored, but I'm willing to consider it balanced as an argument. Saying Terran is favored in TvP is not an argument that I'm really going to take seriously. Blizzard's statistics say that TvP is Protoss favored. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163596http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163764¤tpage=AllThis will be my last post on TvP in this thread. Any more would be considered derailing the topic. PM me if you wish to discuss. My point is that reapers aren't common units, they are only made in special cases, and most likely cheese. Of course these units get used sometimes. Hell, even scouts were used a few times in pro games. And Blizzard stats don't really mean shit. The stats that matter are the amount of terrans winning, and competing in tournaments last year, meaning terran had the advantage. Now, the patches have helped the zvt mu, but the pvt mu is still terran favored, as there was not a patch that really did anything to the matchup. And those aren't stats at ALL. I don't see any numbers anywhere, and blizz only does stats for diamond leagues, and etc, not pros, which is what really matters, because pros can defend a 4gate
I'm amazed. I thought I would be leaving this thread but this post is just.....
2 rax reaper FE is not a cheese. It's a fast expand.
Special cases? There are builds centered around reapers. They're good.
Scouts were used a BM. Reapers can be used to secure an expansion. Your point is not valid at all.
How do you know blizzard stats don't mean anything? Just because they contradict what you believe, they're not valid? And the ones that support what you say matter all the sudden? LoL. Sounds like some nice bias.
And back to broodwar. The 'balanced' game. there have been TONS of seasons where one race was represented more. Go to the BW forums and cry imbalance.
Not to mention you know blizzard doesn't release numbers
You know that David Kim [dayvie]is pro level, and he says P>>>T in TvP. And he plays random, both Terran and Protoss. He knows both sides.
Also, TvP was Protoss favored BEFORE the patch. The patch just made it even worse.
You can continue to argue, but the fact is
Reaper openings ARE viable. I have won with them. Just because you haven't played against such a build or done one does NOT mean they are not viable. KawaiiRice has won with them. QXC has won with them. Why are you ignoring all evidence that points to reapers being viable instead of address them? It's starting to smell like a troll...
Please read the ENTIRE thread :
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163596¤tpage=All
If you post something again that was already covered in there... =_=
A lot of players better than both you and I are saying that Protoss >>> Terran in TvP. Arguing with people with more experience is just stupid, especially when you're using faulty arguments.
Saying that the pro level matters is correct. Why don't you respond to the only pro gamer in this thread?
On October 26 2010 05:38 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 05:06 Tazza wrote:
The supply before rax barely affects the tvp matchup at all. No one used reapers against protoss, and not many people did a bbs against terran. And if you can start out with so many units, you can harass. That's what terran is in sc2, its about harass. No other race can get t3 units as fast as you. You can get thors superfast, and even bcs really fast, but zerg and protoss take very long to get those units. And if you allow protoss to get a lot of temps and colossi, thats your fault. Temps and colossi require a crapload of gas, and therefore you need a lot of expansions. You don't let a toss do that, just like how a toss doesn't allow zergs to macro up like that in the pvz matchup Should have heard PainUser talk about his proxy rax builds before MLG DC~;; I actually practiced a 2rax reaper into exp opening for WEEKS before the patch, and it was reallyllylyl strong... too bad I don't have it anymore eh ? - o-;; Saying you don't let a Protoss take a third is silly. You're conceding the point that Terran late game is horrible and we have to play aggressive as hell and/or get lucky early-midgame (hellion drops or lucky breaks/catching a bad protoss off guard with cloak banshee vs no robo). And since Protoss is on the defensive, if they don't screw up how can Terran win? Because it's really on the Protoss to play correct and just survive the aggression until their gas kicks in and they reach late game.
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I'm surrpised you made this blog so late. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the most RO16, RO8, and RO4 players will be zergs. As for the winner? that is always a tossup but I expect a zerg to be in the finals and probably be favored. Not only are some of these zergs incredible but with the new changes, they adjust their playstyle by adding more roaches, while other races have to figure out new builds to combat it. It is so difficult for terrans to keep up now since it was all based on harass pre-most recent patch, in order to stay ahead of the zerg but now with 4 range roaches and reapers being as useful as scouts in BW, no good zerg should ever lose to a terran, and thats not even talking about ZvP.
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I think Terrans just haven't had enough time to readjust their builds.
But if you look at IdrA, he still doesn't use Roaches AT ALL in ZvT. He goes pure muta-ling-baneling anyway. The rax nerf lets him hatch before pool more safely now, but as for the Roach buff, he doesn't give a shit.
I think we're just seeing a lot of mediocre Terrans getting crushed now by Zergs of higher skill.
You will see this matchup be very even when good Terrans show how its done. All of Terran's ZvT openings were very cheesy.
Also, the top 200 is still majority Terran looking at the most recent stats.
And Korea, where Zergs have been "doing it right" supposedly, have only gained 1 Zerg into their Top 200.
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On October 26 2010 15:14 Subversion wrote:
I think Terrans just haven't had enough time to readjust their builds.
But if you look at IdrA, he still doesn't use Roaches AT ALL in ZvT. He goes pure muta-ling-baneling anyway. The rax nerf lets him hatch before pool more safely now, but as for the Roach buff, he doesn't give a shit.
I think we're just seeing a lot of mediocre Terrans getting crushed now by Zergs of higher skill.
You will see this matchup be very even when good Terrans show how its done.
Also, the top 200 is still majority Terran looking at the most recent stats.
And Korea, where Zergs have been "doing it right" supposedly, have only gained 1 Zerg into their Top 200.
Screw logic, Terran has it harder.
Because I said so...
It is always someone who has to be the immature one, and instead of practicing, or looking for ways to get better, they'd rather complain and try to seemingly gain some sort of sympathetic affirmation that everything they do is harder compared to the rest. In reality they look like douche-bag noobs who are only struggling because they spend a good portion of their time whining on Teamliquid. Especially when statistical results are pointing in the opposite direction they are. At least this is in blogs and not the strategy forum.
What is so hard for everyone to stop whining and legitimately look to improve?
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Baa?21242 Posts
Terrans right now are not using all their options they can versus Zerg swarm. And I will just say about the neosteel frame, this is one of the most abusive things in the game for Terran, and Terrans are completely ignoring it and playing stubborn and dyinig to the Zerg swarm.
And you…can build like…many bunkers and command centers!! Abuse it! I expected neosteel frames to be heavily nerfed like 3 patches ago, but people still refuse to abuse it like it should be abused, and that’s by building a ton of bunkers and command centers everywhere on the map.
Especially near the end of mid-game, and start of late-game, and versus something like roach ultra, it is essential, so start using em...start thinking like the SC1 players, and stop thinking like "i wanna mass marauders" sc2 terran players
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Yeah agreed.
Planetary Fortresses alone should allow you to seriously macro a lot harder than you are.
Terrans need to be looking at taking more bases much much sooner than they are currently. Do you know how bloody hard it is to take down a PF? You basically can't do it without Ultras if the dude gets a repair going in time.
That and bunkers which are essentially free, combined with upgrades such as Neosteel frame which are completely and utterly ignored.
Ravens also basically never see use, even though PDD completely owns Mutas. You have so many options that need to be explored, but instead you're just QQ'ing because you can't a-move an enormous mech/bio ball anymore.
Start being creative and looking for new builds. Do you know how much army control and flanking and counter-attacks and overlord drops and nydus and all kinds of shit Zerg has to use just to beat your a-move?
Zergs had to get a lot better in order to deal with Terrans. You were spoiled and lazy and didn't have to do anything particularly creative. Now that things are balanced, you need to actually learn to do things better, but the top Zergs already are ahead because they've had to be just to stay even in the past.
You can see the kinds of adjustments they made pre-patch, with Fruit winning GSL and IdrA pwning people now with the pre-patch build.
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On October 26 2010 04:56 Tazza wrote:
And you guys still have the most imba mu in the game right now in tvp, where t holds a strong hand. Its been like what, a week since the new patch? We had to deal with it for 3 months, with real hardships, you're just complaining that you don't get free wins from zerg anymore
I hope you don't actually believe this, because Blizzard feels exactly the way OP does about TvZ about TvP, so they're thinking about nerfing Storm to compensate.
I think I'll bookmark your post history so I can check out what your thoughts are once the next patch comes around.
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Now that the main whiner *cough* Tazza *cough* is banned, let me talk a little bit about the raven:
Every raven you make is a forgone thor or a forgone upgrade. There is absolutely no way that a PDD will protect you against mass mutas, since it doesn't address the main problem of killing them.
A forgone thor also means your infantry is more vulnerable to banelings since it removes a part of the "wall" that you use to block Z units from your main DPS, the marines.
HSM is a bloody joke. EVERY zerg unit can outrun it on creep, except the queen, again it doesn't actually address the problem of killing the zerg units, since they just run away.
Good luck killing an ultra with ravens too.
Turrets are slightly useful only, they are peashooters late game and are not affected by unit upgrades and thus are worthless.
So cut your bullshit about being creative, use those 2 braincells and figure out that if ravens were ANY good TvZ, they would have already been used by any of the 6000 players in top 5% of diamond.
If you want to make a stupid post like "hurr durr i saw a replay where ravens were used", please don't. Your anecdotal evidence is irrelevant. If they were really good, we'd see ravens in MLG, ESL cups or GSL. So far there have been none.
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i agree avilo. i've spoken to my friends the very day the patch came out,that Zerg will win GSL2. its the accumulative effect of having early game defense buffed(Roach range) making it way easier to defend and drone up for the Tier 3 Ultras/broodlords which are practically impossible to stop.
especially when the zerg will have the economy to back it up. and they will,again due to the much easier to defend section.
a Zerg WILL win the GSL 2
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On October 26 2010 19:17 Sadistx wrote:
Now that the main whiner *cough* Tazza *cough* is banned, let me talk a little bit about the raven:
Every raven you make is a forgone thor or a forgone upgrade. There is absolutely no way that a PDD will protect you against mass mutas, since it doesn't address the main problem of killing them.
A forgone thor also means your infantry is more vulnerable to banelings since it removes a part of the "wall" that you use to block Z units from your main DPS, the marines.
HSM is a bloody joke. EVERY zerg unit can outrun it on creep, except the queen, again it doesn't actually address the problem of killing the zerg units, since they just run away.
Good luck killing an ultra with ravens too.
Turrets are slightly useful only, they are peashooters late game and are not affected by unit upgrades and thus are worthless.
So cut your bullshit about being creative, use those 2 braincells and figure out that if ravens were ANY good TvZ, they would have already been used by any of the 6000 players in top 5% of diamond.
If you want to make a stupid post like "hurr durr i saw a replay where ravens were used", please don't. Your anecdotal evidence is irrelevant. If they were really good, we'd see ravens in MLG, ESL cups or GSL. So far there have been none.
You should watch MLG DC, where qxc wins a game against IdrA by using HSM on his mutas.
+ Show Spoiler +
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I really can't see anyone else apart from zerg winning GSL2, wouldn't be surprised if it was a zvz final.
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On October 26 2010 19:58 Subversion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 19:17 Sadistx wrote:
Now that the main whiner *cough* Tazza *cough* is banned, let me talk a little bit about the raven:
Every raven you make is a forgone thor or a forgone upgrade. There is absolutely no way that a PDD will protect you against mass mutas, since it doesn't address the main problem of killing them.
A forgone thor also means your infantry is more vulnerable to banelings since it removes a part of the "wall" that you use to block Z units from your main DPS, the marines.
HSM is a bloody joke. EVERY zerg unit can outrun it on creep, except the queen, again it doesn't actually address the problem of killing the zerg units, since they just run away.
Good luck killing an ultra with ravens too.
Turrets are slightly useful only, they are peashooters late game and are not affected by unit upgrades and thus are worthless.
So cut your bullshit about being creative, use those 2 braincells and figure out that if ravens were ANY good TvZ, they would have already been used by any of the 6000 players in top 5% of diamond.
If you want to make a stupid post like "hurr durr i saw a replay where ravens were used", please don't. Your anecdotal evidence is irrelevant. If they were really good, we'd see ravens in MLG, ESL cups or GSL. So far there have been none. You should watch MLG DC, where qxc wins a game against IdrA by using HSM on his mutas. + Show Spoiler +
He fired one missile that did practically no damage after flying around for 5 seconds, and he was up 40 supply then anyway. Qxc won that game despite wasting resources on ravens, not because of it.
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We can talk about zergs dominating gsl after they win gsl3 and 2011 (:
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the TvZ imbalace was nowhere near as strong as the ZvT imbalance now.
And as for th elearn 2 play comments pre patch, though they were stupid but had a point.
fruitdealer played different than any zerg i saw, with his banelings drops on the siege and marine lines and cutting the unit production extremely close to being attacked
Now i see drops all the time, that coupled with Z getting a free expo leads to a massive imbalance in Z favour. I dont see why they ruined the reaper AND made the helion useless. terran has no early game harass anymore which was essential imo to to stop the zergs from being so zerg and expanding everywhere.
blizzard shold learn moderate patching :D isntead they dont do anything for the longest time then massivley change stuff.
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Luckily the OP didn't account for what happened in GSL today and is now proven WRONG.
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On October 26 2010 19:58 Subversion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 19:17 Sadistx wrote:
Now that the main whiner *cough* Tazza *cough* is banned, let me talk a little bit about the raven:
Every raven you make is a forgone thor or a forgone upgrade. There is absolutely no way that a PDD will protect you against mass mutas, since it doesn't address the main problem of killing them.
A forgone thor also means your infantry is more vulnerable to banelings since it removes a part of the "wall" that you use to block Z units from your main DPS, the marines.
HSM is a bloody joke. EVERY zerg unit can outrun it on creep, except the queen, again it doesn't actually address the problem of killing the zerg units, since they just run away.
Good luck killing an ultra with ravens too.
Turrets are slightly useful only, they are peashooters late game and are not affected by unit upgrades and thus are worthless.
So cut your bullshit about being creative, use those 2 braincells and figure out that if ravens were ANY good TvZ, they would have already been used by any of the 6000 players in top 5% of diamond.
If you want to make a stupid post like "hurr durr i saw a replay where ravens were used", please don't. Your anecdotal evidence is irrelevant. If they were really good, we'd see ravens in MLG, ESL cups or GSL. So far there have been none. You should watch MLG DC, where qxc wins a game against IdrA by using HSM on his mutas. + Show Spoiler +
On October 26 2010 20:24 ShadowDrgn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 19:58 Subversion wrote:On October 26 2010 19:17 Sadistx wrote:
Now that the main whiner *cough* Tazza *cough* is banned, let me talk a little bit about the raven:
Every raven you make is a forgone thor or a forgone upgrade. There is absolutely no way that a PDD will protect you against mass mutas, since it doesn't address the main problem of killing them.
A forgone thor also means your infantry is more vulnerable to banelings since it removes a part of the "wall" that you use to block Z units from your main DPS, the marines.
HSM is a bloody joke. EVERY zerg unit can outrun it on creep, except the queen, again it doesn't actually address the problem of killing the zerg units, since they just run away.
Good luck killing an ultra with ravens too.
Turrets are slightly useful only, they are peashooters late game and are not affected by unit upgrades and thus are worthless.
So cut your bullshit about being creative, use those 2 braincells and figure out that if ravens were ANY good TvZ, they would have already been used by any of the 6000 players in top 5% of diamond.
If you want to make a stupid post like "hurr durr i saw a replay where ravens were used", please don't. Your anecdotal evidence is irrelevant. If they were really good, we'd see ravens in MLG, ESL cups or GSL. So far there have been none. You should watch MLG DC, where qxc wins a game against IdrA by using HSM on his mutas. + Show Spoiler + He fired one missile that did practically no damage after flying around for 5 seconds, and he was up 40 supply then anyway. Qxc won that game despite wasting resources on ravens, not because of it.
2 Subversion: Owned.
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Terrans need not rely on strong openings and harassment as much now. They need to play macro style, scout and position well before engagements.
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On October 26 2010 19:58 Subversion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 19:17 Sadistx wrote:
Now that the main whiner *cough* Tazza *cough* is banned, let me talk a little bit about the raven:
Every raven you make is a forgone thor or a forgone upgrade. There is absolutely no way that a PDD will protect you against mass mutas, since it doesn't address the main problem of killing them.
A forgone thor also means your infantry is more vulnerable to banelings since it removes a part of the "wall" that you use to block Z units from your main DPS, the marines.
HSM is a bloody joke. EVERY zerg unit can outrun it on creep, except the queen, again it doesn't actually address the problem of killing the zerg units, since they just run away.
Good luck killing an ultra with ravens too.
Turrets are slightly useful only, they are peashooters late game and are not affected by unit upgrades and thus are worthless.
So cut your bullshit about being creative, use those 2 braincells and figure out that if ravens were ANY good TvZ, they would have already been used by any of the 6000 players in top 5% of diamond.
If you want to make a stupid post like "hurr durr i saw a replay where ravens were used", please don't. Your anecdotal evidence is irrelevant. If they were really good, we'd see ravens in MLG, ESL cups or GSL. So far there have been none. You should watch MLG DC, where qxc wins a game against IdrA by using HSM on his mutas. + Show Spoiler +
Hey guess what, he was THERE AT MLG, he saw it.
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Unless ravens get some sort of irradiate spell or HSM moves faster or has something done to it to make it more viable/practical ravens just cannot become a staple of TvZ. They will continue to be expensive gimmicks in TvZ. Vessels made the cut in broodwar because of irradiate... Ravens have some fun abilities but just don't seem to pack a big enough punch to become common place.
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Its like I wrote on the battle.net forums, for months a fundamental flaw in the TvZ matchup has been hidden because of the abusive and cheesy play by terrans disallowing zergs to reach the mid-late game unhurt. Now that zerg has finally figured out (through patches and playstyle) a way to get there in good shape their macro mechanics + high dps unit combo just absolutely shit all over terran.
Bling/ling/muta is just such a versitile army composition and a cost efficent way to counter anything the terran throws at you, and when you have the larvae saved up and can replenish after a fight way quicker than the terran opponent the game quickly fall out of the terrans hands and its now more obvious than ever.
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lol @ so many people taking things out of context and then attacking me. I want the game to be balanced. People quoting things out of context are stupid.
And apparently people do not remember beta when Z was easily the strongest race. Myself and others pointed that out heavily during BETA -> the entire purpose of a beta is to give feedback, and when once race becomes freewin lategame...the game isn't balanced.
It's just gone back to being that way now. It's just worse though, and it's not just TvZ, T has the same problems late game versus P when there are storm+collosus that rape any sized T army. P almost autowins lategame from having those strong AOE, while Z does it through larva inject.
And for gods sake, just because i'm pointing out how Z>T this patch does not mean I am biased. I was one of the Terrans last patch that posted that Zerg needed a lot of help early game, and that so many things are unscoutable for Zerg, and hell, for T/P as well.
You know why they nerfed void rays? Because of that fucking ridiculous autowin proxy stargate -> accumulate 3 voids -> freewin strat.
Anyways, like i've always said about how blizzard is balancing SC2 now...they just keep making the game a new game every patch. Balance shouldn't completely change from T > Z to Z > T. They overnerfed Terran with removing reapers from the game, and doing depot b4 rax + buffing zerg.
Maybe they wno't make the same mistake next patch? And yah, I agree luckyfool. Ravens need a buff either to their own movement speed, or to the HSM energy requirement, or speed of the missile so the opponent has to PREEMPTIVELY run, instead of 100% evasion sometimes.
It's very gimmicky and once you launch it it's out of your control whether it does damage to your opponent, to your own army as well, or does any damage at all. Irradiate was guaranteed damage to at least 1 unit of Z in SC1. And that was imbalanced but everything in BW was.
I can't see anyone other than a Zerg winning GSL though. Even b4 this last mega zerg buff patch, Zergs had begun to figure out ling/muta/baneling stomped basically anything.
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If you weren't complaining while T was dominating Z during late beta your blog would get more respect now. Remember you were saying something like "mass nydus worm will be the answer to OP terran mech, zergs just cry too much before figuring things out"? I guess the "mass nydus worm" never happened, no one remotely good even attempted doing this. What will you say when T or P wins the GSL? How come Z won previous GSL? I guess you will never stop complaining.
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On October 27 2010 03:06 avilo wrote:
lol @ so many people taking things out of context and then attacking me. I want the game to be balanced. People quoting things out of context are stupid. You made a post a while ago saying that people were overreacting to the roach nerf.
Now it's been 2 weeks since the patch and here you are whining.
Please explain the missing context.
It's not even the mentioned posts either. Going through your post history shows you spend half your time here whining about zerg, and then you have the balls to call everyone else biased.
Instead of whining, why don't you take your own advice?
On September 09 2010 09:47 avilo wrote:
solution: play the game it is and get better at it.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=151402#7
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On October 26 2010 15:25 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Terrans right now are not using all their options they can versus Zerg swarm. And I will just say about the neosteel frame, this is one of the most abusive things in the game for Terran, and Terrans are completely ignoring it and playing stubborn and dyinig to the Zerg swarm.
And you…can build like…many bunkers and command centers!! Abuse it! I expected neosteel frames to be heavily nerfed like 3 patches ago, but people still refuse to abuse it like it should be abused, and that’s by building a ton of bunkers and command centers everywhere on the map.
Especially near the end of mid-game, and start of late-game, and versus something like roach ultra, it is essential, so start using em...start thinking like the SC1 players, and stop thinking like "i wanna mass marauders" sc2 terran players
Thanks for this, will try this a lot ^_^
I'm all okay with the nerfed terran and stuff, but I hope that HSM gets buff at least at a 100 energy that's the time i going to use it a lot.
Mostly the only thing I do now against Zerg is cheesy tactics and how they play out well before mid game.. other than that if I try playing against zerg straight up, I wait for an army of 200/200 before moving out. Sounds gay but that's the only thing I can think of winning.
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On October 27 2010 02:04 Senx wrote:
Its like I wrote on the battle.net forums, for months a fundamental flaw in the TvZ matchup has been hidden because of the abusive and cheesy play by terrans disallowing zergs to reach the mid-late game unhurt. Now that zerg has finally figured out (through patches and playstyle) a way to get there in good shape their macro mechanics + high dps unit combo just absolutely shit all over terran.
Bling/ling/muta is just such a versitile army composition and a cost efficent way to counter anything the terran throws at you, and when you have the larvae saved up and can replenish after a fight way quicker than the terran opponent the game quickly fall out of the terrans hands and its now more obvious than ever.
Ya most people notice it but these thoughts were ultimately clouded by the early game whining.
Reaper and bunker build time should get knocked down to pre 1.1 patch. I think there is a small window now to hurt a 14hatch zerg but that decreased time would be really helpful.
Fungal + bane has always been absurd so not sure what to do about that. Maybe make fungal have a small projectile like it was in early beta so peaking at an army doesn't instantly result in death every time. This is all coming from a Z player.
Just going to chime in on the raven.
Not only can you dodge HSM, but the 125 energy cost allows only 1 hsm per raven at any given time and the left over energy (@200 energy max) you can't even throw down a PDD. With irradiate you had guaranteed damage + 3 casts on a full energy upgraded science vessel(250 max with upgrade 75energy irradiates). I suggest decreasing splash, decrease damage, increase speed slightly, and knock it down to 100energy so you can get 2 per full energy raven.
Hmm what if the HSM missile had guaranteed damage using some kind of accelerating missile feature. Like you shoot it at a mutalisk and it will always hit but takes 10 seconds giving zerg time to split. If muta runs directly at you, it will function the way it does now.
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I will admit I was prob "the nydus guy" in beta lol, but that was when Terran mech was absolutely becoming broken, and Zergs were playing pretty one dimensional. They changed that though, and got better, and the game was not as discovered or what not at that point.
Now the game is more "solved," and so ravens are becoming the Terran version of "omg build nydus worms," but us Terrans lately are trying Ravens and...it's not working lol. When all your options are exhausted...something is wrong.
Maybe I'm just making an early call and that is just my opinion...but nothing changed late game Terran-wise. There's nothing new between this patch and last patch for Terran, except that we got our early game options limited even further, rather than Zerg's options being buffed @_@.
So yeh, i hope people realize the reason Terrans are doing "gimmicky two base builds" is because we all know it's impossible to win a macro game versus Zerg.
It was the same way pre-Terran dominance in beta. Terrans were doing ridiculously bad, random, gimicky builds because if you left Zerg untouched or were unable to do little cute harrass, you lose the game.
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From Interview with IdrA:
MLG: You also came up against QXC. He was able to take a game off of you with a strong Thor/Raven push; is that a strategy you run into a lot?
Idra: No, actually I've been waiting for people to start using Ravens more as I feel they're very powerful, underused units. Although generally I expect Point Defense Drone to be used more than Hunter-Seeker Missile, his build was quite impressive. I'm not sure if it’s possible to beat it after opening Muta—it might require you to go Roach to counter it.
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I really don't understand how people can take OP seriously.
He keeps posting all these "claims" of how he knows Zerg is "OP" and Terran is "UP" based on no more than his incompetence and skewed view of how he apparently watches games. Yet the ironic thing is statistics disagree with him, so there really is no more need for back and forth arguing with someone who refuses to listen to anyone besides himself. That and I believe Terran currently has the highest win percentage match-up, TvP, being favored 54%. Yet all the Terran players are expecting Protoss to get nerfed, and them being untouched. Smart thinkers, huh?
A simple look at any game with common sense can tell you Terran isn't UP, but if you're not saavy with gameplay theory then you can always go to the Starcraft 2 forum and read the numbers and race statistics. Sure, time will tell if things are to change. But in the current state Terran is STILL in the lead with pretty much everything.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=164129
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163865
But ya know, Terrans can refute it all they want. It is just they look so ridiculously dumb in doing so.
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WOW OP, really?:
He tells Zergs in the past to "learn 2 play" and now he comes here to whine when ZvT is STILL hugely in favor of Terran? Disgusting.
Even without a reaper opening, Terrans still have more harrassing options to Z than vice versa
The supply before rax nerf only means that T has to FE earlier and play a macro game instead
The 1 range roach increase mostly affected ZvP. ZvT, roaches are still roasted by Marauders
The Tank Nerf is the only one that I see that actually did something.
So Zergs have a slightly better chance now even though ZvT is still hugely in favor of Terran so you start complaining?
On October 27 2010 03:06 avilo wrote:
lol @ so many people taking things out of context and then attacking me. I want the game to be balanced.
I doubt the honesty of your post. You want the game to be balanced but when ZvT was at a critically broken state in the past, you were one of those "Learn to play, Use Nydus" fanatics
this thread should be closed..
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On October 27 2010 13:47 SCC-Faust wrote:I really don't understand how people can take OP seriously. He keeps posting all these "claims" of how he knows Zerg is "OP" and Terran is "UP" based on no more than his incompetence and skewed view of how he apparently watches games. Yet the ironic thing is statistics disagree with him, so there really is no more need for back and forth arguing with someone who refuses to listen to anyone besides himself. That and I believe Terran currently has the highest win percentage match-up, TvP, being favored 54%. Yet all the Terran players are expecting Protoss to get nerfed, and them being untouched. Smart thinkers, huh? A simple look at any game with common sense can tell you Terran isn't UP, but if you're not saavy with gameplay theory then you can always go to the Starcraft 2 forum and read the numbers and race statistics. Sure, time will tell if things are to change. But in the current state Terran is STILL in the lead with pretty much everything. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=164129http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163865But ya know, Terrans can refute it all they want. It is just they look so ridiculously dumb in doing so.
I agree with your point but you have to kind of try to understand their point of view too. They've been getting to the higher leagues with the heavily broken ZvT, and when the matchup slowly shows signs of becoming a bit more fair, it's only natural to have the "don't nerf my race bro" attitude because they know that they won't remain in their leagues. It's also a tactic to over-exaggerate minor balance changes to shift the community's view on the matchup so that future nerfs don't happen to their race.
Mark my words, if 1.13 gives Hydras a slight speed boost, they're going to scream Zerg OP Terran UP because Hydras dominate the matchup-kind of reasoning, even if no one still uses Hydras because they still remain sucky.
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I'm no expert regarding SC2, but when I'm looking at the liquibets for GSL ro16, so far we have
TheWind (Z) VS ZergBong (Z)
Idra (Z) VS Zenio (Z)
NaDa (T) VS Leenock (Z)
Check (Z) VS Rainbow (T)
Kyrix (Z) VS Ensnare (T)
so out of 10 players we have 7 zergs, 3 terran and 0 protoss, which is a little scary :/
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On October 27 2010 14:50 lastmotion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 13:47 SCC-Faust wrote:I really don't understand how people can take OP seriously. He keeps posting all these "claims" of how he knows Zerg is "OP" and Terran is "UP" based on no more than his incompetence and skewed view of how he apparently watches games. Yet the ironic thing is statistics disagree with him, so there really is no more need for back and forth arguing with someone who refuses to listen to anyone besides himself. That and I believe Terran currently has the highest win percentage match-up, TvP, being favored 54%. Yet all the Terran players are expecting Protoss to get nerfed, and them being untouched. Smart thinkers, huh? A simple look at any game with common sense can tell you Terran isn't UP, but if you're not saavy with gameplay theory then you can always go to the Starcraft 2 forum and read the numbers and race statistics. Sure, time will tell if things are to change. But in the current state Terran is STILL in the lead with pretty much everything. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=164129http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163865But ya know, Terrans can refute it all they want. It is just they look so ridiculously dumb in doing so. I agree with your point but you have to kind of try to understand their point of view too. They've been getting to the higher leagues with the heavily broken ZvT, and when the matchup slowly shows signs of becoming a bit more fair, it's only natural to have the "don't nerf my race bro" attitude because they know that they won't remain in their leagues. It's also a tactic to over-exaggerate minor balance changes to shift the community's view on the matchup so that future nerfs don't happen to their race. Mark my words, if 1.13 gives Hydras a slight speed boost, they're going to scream Zerg OP Terran UP because Hydras dominate the matchup-kind of reasoning, even if no one still uses Hydras because they still remain sucky.
how people can deny Zergs(even before the patch) lategame advantage is beyond me. the only solution to this has been harassing the zergs eco to stop them getting to that point(which is already a flawed idea). Now roaches rape hellions even more + queen = no possible hellion harass anymore. Reapers? Too slow.
The Imbalance before the patch swung both ways, Z lategame and T early game. now you took out T early game imbalance so only the endgame zerg is seen. early game happens to be before late game so that why only T was percieved as imba.
Solution? Nerf larva injection. and bring back reaper speed.
a)change max larva
b)change required energy
c) reapers were already used less after the buildtime nerf, there was no need to nerf them into uselessness. with the roach range they will be even less of a threat but still viable if you have the control
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On October 27 2010 15:26 mustache wrote:
how people can deny Zergs(even before the patch) lategame advantage is beyond me. the only solution to this has been harassing the zergs eco to stop them getting to that point(which is already a flawed idea). Now roaches rape hellions even more + queen = no possible hellion harass anymore. Reapers? Too slow.
The Imbalance before the patch swung both ways, Z lategame and T early game. now you took out T early game imbalance so only the endgame zerg is seen. early game happens to be before late game so that why only T was percieved as imba.
Solution? Nerf larva injection. and bring back reaper speed.
a)change max larva
b)change required energy
c) reapers were already used less after the buildtime nerf, there was no need to nerf them into uselessness. with the roach range they will be even less of a threat but still viable if you have the control
You have no idea what you're talking about.
I could write paragraphs of why everything you said is ridiculous.
But I'd rather just reference to my previous post. Either numbers are lying, or you're a SC2 strategy prodigy. Onwards to Blizzard HQ man, they need you bad.
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then please, if your prowess of knowledge is so great, write these paragraphs.
1)thats a great list for referencing to man, thanks! now i know who the best players are and why select won the GSL... Oh wait, thats a RETARDED list which says absolutely nothing about the state of the game.
2)Your second quote is as usless as the first. When commenting on balance you have to look at the top players in the world. the GSL. not some crappy cups around the world. . The only actually useful tournament you quoted was MLG since it had players flown in from around the world.
Blizzcon too as a matter of fact.
but there 8 T players and 4 Z players attended
quarter finals were 3-2
half finals were 1-1
the only times T won vs Zerg is when they horribly outmatched them, i.e players like Maka and Loner. Maka making it to the round of 32, and Loner in the round of 16 in this GSL.
Look at your posts before you mindlessly quote statistics. Is protoss the strongest race because it has the highest win% on ladder?(might have changed by now) no because those statistics dont matter. Only the highest level of play matters. And at the highest level of play Z won last GSL pre patch already, and now about half of the players advanced into the ro16 are Z
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"Statistics don't matter".
I lost motivation to respond to you.
It is quite obvious no matter how much evidence I give you, you'll still be talking out of your ass.
It isn't enough that Terran still upholds the most positions overall of top 200 ladders worldwide.
Like the frustrating part isn't that you don't know how TvZ works, it is you are just too ignorant to find out. You refute all the tournaments recorded for the current patch, and then bring up the GSL in your defense. I have to say that is quite hilarious, really. If you think all the players entered in the GSL ro64 are way better than the top foreigners then you obviously haven't watched an ounce of foreign competition. Therefor your point, although it didn't make any sense originally, just appears a lot more dumb then before.
If you still want to only appeal to Koreans, then I have this for you.
http://kr.battle.net/sc2/ko/blog/429671
I counted 74 Terrans and I skimmed the list.
If statistics still don't matter, then care to share why you're amazing knowledge is above it?
I'm interested in what can analyze the game better than match-oriented results in bulk. You must be a genius. :o
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On October 27 2010 15:00 endy wrote:
I'm no expert regarding SC2, but when I'm looking at the liquibets for GSL ro16, so far we have
TheWind (Z) VS ZergBong (Z)
Idra (Z) VS Zenio (Z)
NaDa (T) VS Leenock (Z)
Check (Z) VS Rainbow (T)
Kyrix (Z) VS Ensnare (T)
so out of 10 players we have 7 zergs, 3 terran and 0 protoss, which is a little scary :/
the qualifiers were played pre 1.1.2, meaning that any zerg who got through had to be 2x better than most of the terrans and protosses who got through, it makes sense that a higher percentage of them are still in the tournament post patch. as for the other players, iron lost by doing fucking retarded builds, tester got knocked out somehow in the qualifiers, and genius and inca are still in it, those were the protosses who were good to begin with. their situation is not particularly suprising. for terrans, maka played poorly last night and mvp simply made more mistakes than zenio did, clide got knocked out in a tvt. boxer and nada are still in it as are rainbow and ensnare, theres no other terrans who are particularly deserving.
this is not like last season when absolute trash terrans and protosses were knocking out good zergs, this is decent to good zergs, besides leenock who had a zvz last round anyway, outplaying their opponents. theres not random players rising up out of nowhere, those zergs are zergs who have been at the top of sc2 since the beta, minus zergbong who was a former sc1 pro anyway.
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On October 27 2010 17:11 SCC-Faust wrote:"Statistics don't matter". I lost motivation to respond to you. It is quite obvious no matter how much evidence I give you, you'll still be talking out of your ass. It isn't enough that Terran still upholds the most positions overall of top 200 ladders worldwide. Like the frustrating part isn't that you don't know how TvZ works, it is you are just too ignorant to find out. You refute all the tournaments recorded for the current patch, and then bring up the GSL in your defense. I have to say that is quite hilarious, really. If you think all the players entered in the GSL ro64 are way better than the top foreigners then you obviously haven't watched an ounce of foreign competition. Therefor your point, although it didn't make any sense originally, just appears a lot more dumb then before. If you still want to only appeal to Koreans, then I have this for you. http://kr.battle.net/sc2/ko/blog/429671I counted 74 Terrans and I skimmed the list. If statistics still don't matter, then care to share why you're amazing knowledge is above it? I'm interested in what can analyze the game better than match-oriented results in bulk. You must be a genius. :o
if you want the game analyzed in bulk then why wasnt P nerfed? they had the highest win% on ladder. the game isnt supposed to be balanced around ease of use for the majority it's supposed to be balanced around potential. That potential is found at the very top. And that potential, that skill isnt shown through ladder statistics (progamers dont only ladder).
out of the top 25 50% are Z btw. why top 25? I don't know, because it fits my arguement. why top 200? because it fits yours.
And yes GSL players are generally better than foreigners. TLO, Jinro and hypro havent been doing too hot over there for example. And thats with living in a pro house a korean pro team to practice with.
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On October 27 2010 18:20 mustache wrote:
out of the top 25 50% are Z btw. why top 25? I don't know, because it fits my arguement. why top 200? because it fits yours.
Where is your source for your ridiculous Protoss win percentage claims?
And I see how it is now. I'm glad you finally admit you are going to just randomly cut out data until it makes you seem somewhat right, although in actuality you are very, very wrong. No where does anything you say even make sense. You're basically saying "Well George Bush would have won the election because he won Florida, but screw the 49 other states, because this fits my argument."
Then again I don't know who in this thread can take a 54-55 Terran seriously. Drop the ego and pseudo-knowledge you think you have and maybe you'll get better, but if you spend all your time crying about it you're just making yourself look like a terrible idiot, as you already have done so.
I'm probably getting trolled but I'm not sure.
Edit: Btw you're wrong with win percentages of Protoss and Blizzard balancing the top.
Read their updates and interviews sometime, they've referenced nerfing zealots for silver league.
Also I believe TvP has a 54% right now, which is in the Terran favor. I'll look for the articles when I care.
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On October 27 2010 18:29 SCC-Faust wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 18:20 mustache wrote:
out of the top 25 50% are Z btw. why top 25? I don't know, because it fits my arguement. why top 200? because it fits yours.
Where is your source for your ridiculous Protoss win percentage claims? And I see how it is now. I'm glad you finally admit you are going to just randomly cut out data until it makes you seem somewhat right, although in actuality you are very, very wrong. No where does anything you say even make sense. You're basically saying "Well George Bush would have won the election because he won Florida, but screw the 49 other states, because this fits my argument." Then again I don't know who in this thread can take a 54-55 Terran seriously. Drop the ego and pseudo-knowledge you think you have and maybe you'll get better, but if you spend all your time crying about it you're just making yourself look like a terrible idiot, as you already have done so. I'm probably getting trolled but I'm not sure. Edit: Btw you're wrong with win percentages of Protoss and Blizzard balancing the top. Read their updates and interviews sometime, they've referenced nerfing zealots for silver league. Also I believe TvP has a 54% right now, which is in the Terran favor. I'll look for the articles when I care.
I remeber a statistic blizzard release pre patch with the Toss win% being the highest
Nice ad hominem argument, but sadly all it proves is that you're losing. And you also keep insulting me which further lowers your status in this argument.
When did I say blizzard balances by the top players? nowhere. Where did I say that's what true balance is? In my post. Again that statistic was pre patch.
I guess we wont budge in eitehr direction so well have to wait and see. who knows maybe T has to adjust their playstyle and they jsut havent found the right one, just like Z did with muta/ling/baneling/drop.
EDIT:found it
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/761331#blog
toss has a >50%winrate in all matchups in all levels exept diamon pvt and platinum pvz
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Losing what? You clearly stated:
how people can deny Zergs(even before the patch) lategame advantage is beyond me. the only solution to this has been harassing the zergs eco to stop them getting to that point(which is already a flawed idea). Now roaches rape hellions even more + queen = no possible hellion harass anymore. Reapers? Too slow.
The Imbalance before the patch swung both ways, Z lategame and T early game. now you took out T early game imbalance so only the endgame zerg is seen. early game happens to be before late game so that why only T was percieved as imba.
I disagreed, refuted, posted statistics, and you're responses are cutting out data, ignoring the proof, and then telling me I'm "losing"? The only reason you won't "budge" is because you clearly have no idea what you're talking about in the first place. And you won't even think about what I'm typing because you apparently have some sort of superiority complex that your opinion is stronger than evidence, and you probably perceive that people reading this topic would somehow agree with you. Which is ludicrous, because most people are smart enough to understand a large scale of statistics is very, very relevant to this topic in regards to Terran being underpowered, which is what this is really all about.
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how is me using your statistics agaisnt you, by using them as i please any different than you using those same statistics to prove your point?
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On October 27 2010 19:22 mustache wrote:
how is me using your statistics agaisnt you, by using them as i please any different than you using those same statistics to prove your point?
This is about Terran being underpowered, you know, the reason why I responded to your post?
Everything I posted, statistics and otherwise, have said otherwise. What do you do?
You post statistics of the Protoss winrate? Lol? Then you proceed to post that you don't understand stats.
If I put four red balls and a blue ball in front of you and tell you to tell me how many balls there are, you're basically saying "4". You're totally ignoring a portion of the balls because it doesn't fall under what you want it to be. But there are "5". Just like there are "200" people in the "Top 200". You know, all of them. If you want to make a case for Terran being underpowered, you don't just ignore a random portion of the list just because you WANT to. You look at everything. You aren't even making a case, you never did.
I spend time posting what I believe and my proof and all you do is pick apart what I say with the dumbest shit that seems elementary school-esque to the point where you want me to explain to you WHY you can't remove a part of statistics, and why I can fully use them, you know, the way statistics are intended? I guess I'm done here. You can continue making yourself look like an idiot.
The only post that was even relevant to what you were trying to prove was your first, and the rest was flamebait trolling. My bad for even trying to talk to someone trashing the forums.
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What is the reasoning behind your top 200 being anything special though? you're missing the point. just because thers an official statistic with the top 200 doesnt mean thats a relevant number at all. if you can pick 200 arbitrarily out of the thousands of players online then why cant i pick only 25? And yes i pick apart your posts because i choose to actually anwer to your arguements instead of jsut flaming you.
GSL
+ Show Spoiler +A marine all in is hardly representative of balance, and cool suiciding 2 overlords didnt help either. Game 2 cool went for a 3 hatch when he couldnt even support 2 yet.
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Zerg is not OP! Zergs just raping now because of the buffs. Just wait until people find out how to fight it!
Just like the banshee rush. RAPED for 1-2 months, then stopped working.. lol
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Just LOL at this blog... Wrong on pretty much every point. I think it'd do everyone a lot of good if they didn't post any balance theories (cause that's all these are) for at least a month.
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On October 27 2010 15:26 mustache wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 14:50 lastmotion wrote:On October 27 2010 13:47 SCC-Faust wrote:I really don't understand how people can take OP seriously. He keeps posting all these "claims" of how he knows Zerg is "OP" and Terran is "UP" based on no more than his incompetence and skewed view of how he apparently watches games. Yet the ironic thing is statistics disagree with him, so there really is no more need for back and forth arguing with someone who refuses to listen to anyone besides himself. That and I believe Terran currently has the highest win percentage match-up, TvP, being favored 54%. Yet all the Terran players are expecting Protoss to get nerfed, and them being untouched. Smart thinkers, huh? A simple look at any game with common sense can tell you Terran isn't UP, but if you're not saavy with gameplay theory then you can always go to the Starcraft 2 forum and read the numbers and race statistics. Sure, time will tell if things are to change. But in the current state Terran is STILL in the lead with pretty much everything. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=164129http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163865But ya know, Terrans can refute it all they want. It is just they look so ridiculously dumb in doing so. I agree with your point but you have to kind of try to understand their point of view too. They've been getting to the higher leagues with the heavily broken ZvT, and when the matchup slowly shows signs of becoming a bit more fair, it's only natural to have the "don't nerf my race bro" attitude because they know that they won't remain in their leagues. It's also a tactic to over-exaggerate minor balance changes to shift the community's view on the matchup so that future nerfs don't happen to their race. Mark my words, if 1.13 gives Hydras a slight speed boost, they're going to scream Zerg OP Terran UP because Hydras dominate the matchup-kind of reasoning, even if no one still uses Hydras because they still remain sucky. how people can deny Zergs(even before the patch) lategame advantage is beyond me. the only solution to this has been harassing the zergs eco to stop them getting to that point(which is already a flawed idea). Now roaches rape hellions even more + queen = no possible hellion harass anymore. Reapers? Too slow. The Imbalance before the patch swung both ways, Z lategame and T early game. now you took out T early game imbalance so only the endgame zerg is seen. early game happens to be before late game so that why only T was percieved as imba. Solution? Nerf larva injection. and bring back reaper speed. a)change max larva b)change required energy c) reapers were already used less after the buildtime nerf, there was no need to nerf them into uselessness. with the roach range they will be even less of a threat but still viable if you have the control
except Zergs don't really have a late game advantage in ZvT, they just have a late game advantage if you look at the Zerg race comparatively because their mid-game and early-game was so weak. A 200/200 Terran mech army will beat an army full of Ultras.
It's like this: Every game for Z is a survival game to the late game mark where they can get ultras/broodlords out, and then from there, it's pretty even. People just assumed it was in Zerg's favor because of how strong Ultras/Broods were compared to its lower tier units. No, those late game units just make the matchup more fair, but STILL in T favor
T's early game imbalance was never removed. Supply before rax? T can expo earlier to adjust to the safe hatch-first build. Nerf of Reapers did reduce the options/strength of T early game but Terrans are still able to do marine all-in pushes, mid-game drops, early hellions, banshees, a number of strats to cripple Z early in the game
Why would larva injection need to be nerfed? It's fine as it is. If anything, MULE hasn't been nerfed yet. Oh Zerg can produce too many units? That's the type of race they are. Terrans are supposed to be produce fewer, but stronger units. But this isn't even the case because of reactors allows Terran to mass produce easily
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Typical fail whiner blog, just look at GSL2 and learn to play aggressively.
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On October 28 2010 04:55 teamsolid wrote:
Typical fail whiner blog, just look at GSL2 and learn to play aggressively.
ZOMG fruitdealer lost!!1111!!! Still going to be two zergs in the finals. And that doesn't invalidate how strong Z is vs T right now.
And statistics don't mean jack shit when it comes to balance.
Hilarious, you kids post ur smartass bullshit "omg fruitdealer lost!" but then if people last patch post "fruitdealer won GSL...he's a Zerg" you wouldn't be so quick to post your non witty comments.
Instead you go, "that doesn't mean anything!" so stfu hypocrits  just wait zvz finals!
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tons of TvZ coming up in the next ro16 matches tomorrow. Watch all the terrans win! yaaaaaa.
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I wonder if people bashing the author of the blog knows that he played mgl and did actually good ....
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On October 29 2010 01:40 noD wrote:
I wonder if people bashing the author of the blog knows that he played mgl and did actually good .... What does skill have to do with being a whining hypocrite?
OP made a thread telling zergs to stop whining and get better in 1.1
Now the OP is making a thread whining about terran nerfs in 1.2
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France2061 Posts
On October 29 2010 01:40 noD wrote:
I wonder if people bashing the author of the blog knows that he played mgl and did actually good ....
The author of the blog is also quite e-famous for constant whining in the C&C community so this is par for the course
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On October 29 2010 01:40 noD wrote:
I wonder if people bashing the author of the blog knows that he played mgl and did actually good ....
so if you're pretty good, it excuses you from making biased remarks and raging at people who point out that he is receiving the treatment he handed out in the past?
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I am baffled by the lack of protoss players. I refuse to accept that the reason is that there are no talented ones to begin with. No, it's statistically impossible. AFAIK, there are more protoss players than Zerg or Terran.
Sure, there wasn't many legendary protoss switching like Nada and Boxer, but even with that, it just feeling wrong. Not sure if it is because of patch or because the way Blizzard made protoss in this game. I.e. can roflstomp the opponent, or can die very easily as well. The units are very expensive and if you do a mistake with them, it will be a very expensive one. As opposed to cheaper armies of terran and zerg, and thus, allowing to lose more of them without as much hurt.
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On October 29 2010 02:03 Xxavi wrote:
I am baffled by the lack of protoss players. I refuse to accept that the reason is that there are no talented ones to begin with. No, it's statistically impossible. AFAIK, there are more protoss players than Zerg or Terran.
Sure, there wasn't many legendary protoss switching like Nada and Boxer, but even with that, it just feeling wrong. Not sure if it is because of patch or because the way Blizzard made protoss in this game. I.e. can roflstomp the opponent, or can die very easily as well. The units are very expensive and if you do a mistake with them, it will be a very expensive one. As opposed to cheaper armies of terran and zerg, and thus, allowing to lose more of them without as much hurt.
I find Inca, Genius, MC (dunno how the hell he lost) and tester (even tho he didnt make to gsl 2) awesomely good P players ....
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On October 29 2010 02:02 snowdrift wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 01:40 noD wrote:
I wonder if people bashing the author of the blog knows that he played mgl and did actually good .... The author of the blog is also quite e-famous for constant whining in the C&C community so this is par for the course
Yes, that's completely true. Games that are not balanced piss me off Brood War really spoils gamers when it comes to balance...
and ffs, my specific player predictions got raped lol.
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On October 29 2010 03:12 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 02:02 snowdrift wrote:On October 29 2010 01:40 noD wrote:
I wonder if people bashing the author of the blog knows that he played mgl and did actually good .... The author of the blog is also quite e-famous for constant whining in the C&C community so this is par for the course Yes, that's completely true. Games that are not balanced piss me off Brood War really spoils gamers when it comes to balance... and ffs, my specific player predictions got raped lol.
Rofl you're such a tool.
"games that are not balanced piss me off" yet you made 0 posts about Zerg when they had 2 tournament wins compared to Terrans 78 or whatever it was.
Now the latest patch is out like a week? And you start a massive thread claiming Zerg is now
obviously too powerful.
It's blatantly obvious you're just being partisan and whining because things just got hard for YOU personally.
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On October 29 2010 04:56 Klive5ive wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 03:12 avilo wrote:On October 29 2010 02:02 snowdrift wrote:On October 29 2010 01:40 noD wrote:
I wonder if people bashing the author of the blog knows that he played mgl and did actually good .... The author of the blog is also quite e-famous for constant whining in the C&C community so this is par for the course Yes, that's completely true. Games that are not balanced piss me off Brood War really spoils gamers when it comes to balance... and ffs, my specific player predictions got raped lol. Rofl you're such a tool. "games that are not balanced piss me off" yet you made 0 posts about Zerg when they had 2 tournament wins compared to Terrans 78 or whatever it was. Now the latest patch is out like a week? And you start a massive thread claiming Zerg is now obviously too powerful. It's blatantly obvious you're just being partisan and whining because things just got hard for YOU personally.
some random posts i've made in other threads:
cool is probably my favorite SC2 progamer in korea right now. And i'm a Terran player lol just too damn good. TOOO...FUCKING...GOOD!!! He plays ZvT how it's meant to be played, plays infestor mid-game just like SC1 defilers, to delay and stall until he has mass ultras - hell, sometimes he even wins with ling/infestor/roach. good stuff.
On September 27 2010 15:42 avilo wrote:Dunno about some of the stuff but I completely agree with you that the Zerg is missing scourge. Pretty sure every Zerg will agree with you
On September 28 2010 08:55 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 07:33 beetlelisk wrote:
How many Zergs have you seen morphing new tumors as soon as cooldown ends?
Or using Overlords with speed to drop creep just at the end of tumors' range so they can morph there ASAP instead of waiting for creep (from tumors) to get there? well, that's easy to say, but have you played Zerg? You can't have 10 overlords making a creep highway or you lose 80 supply in less than 20 seconds. Creep tumors being buffed would be really good imo, it would give Zerg a better chance without directly affecting unit balance through buffs/nerfs. But there's already lots of problems there too of course. Blizzard really is gonna have a hard time on what to do with Zerg because a few slight changes and Zerg becomes the most powerful race, and too few or not enough love and it will stay the weakest.
...there's a TON more i made when "T was OP" in defense that Zerg had limited options early game and needed buffs. Go find them, or troll harder.
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On October 29 2010 05:30 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 04:56 Klive5ive wrote:On October 29 2010 03:12 avilo wrote:On October 29 2010 02:02 snowdrift wrote:On October 29 2010 01:40 noD wrote:
I wonder if people bashing the author of the blog knows that he played mgl and did actually good .... The author of the blog is also quite e-famous for constant whining in the C&C community so this is par for the course Yes, that's completely true. Games that are not balanced piss me off Brood War really spoils gamers when it comes to balance... and ffs, my specific player predictions got raped lol. Rofl you're such a tool. "games that are not balanced piss me off" yet you made 0 posts about Zerg when they had 2 tournament wins compared to Terrans 78 or whatever it was. Now the latest patch is out like a week? And you start a massive thread claiming Zerg is now obviously too powerful. It's blatantly obvious you're just being partisan and whining because things just got hard for YOU personally. some random posts i've made in other threads: Show nested quote +cool is probably my favorite SC2 progamer in korea right now. And i'm a Terran player lol just too damn good. TOOO...FUCKING...GOOD!!! He plays ZvT how it's meant to be played, plays infestor mid-game just like SC1 defilers, to delay and stall until he has mass ultras - hell, sometimes he even wins with ling/infestor/roach. good stuff. Show nested quote +On September 27 2010 15:42 avilo wrote:Dunno about some of the stuff but I completely agree with you that the Zerg is missing scourge. Pretty sure every Zerg will agree with you Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 08:55 avilo wrote:On September 28 2010 07:33 beetlelisk wrote:
How many Zergs have you seen morphing new tumors as soon as cooldown ends?
Or using Overlords with speed to drop creep just at the end of tumors' range so they can morph there ASAP instead of waiting for creep (from tumors) to get there? well, that's easy to say, but have you played Zerg? You can't have 10 overlords making a creep highway or you lose 80 supply in less than 20 seconds. Creep tumors being buffed would be really good imo, it would give Zerg a better chance without directly affecting unit balance through buffs/nerfs. But there's already lots of problems there too of course. Blizzard really is gonna have a hard time on what to do with Zerg because a few slight changes and Zerg becomes the most powerful race, and too few or not enough love and it will stay the weakest. ...there's a TON more i made when "T was OP" in defense that Zerg had limited options early game and needed buffs. Go find them, or troll harder.
I read these forums A LOT I know what you've been posting.
Those examples are nothing compared to this thread.
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P and T have a different macro mechanic than zerg. Therefore, EXPLOIT the shit out of it. Unlike P and T, zergs can't macro as well as make units. Trading armies with the zerg is what you want the zerg to do. Keep those larva on producing zerglings and low tier units as long as possible. Then crush the zerg when you know you have the econ advantage. It's the only way to win a macro game with a zerg.
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Well I noticied in a few recent replays where FruitdealeR gets rolled by some basic harass followed by some drops. Late game terran has just evolved into mining out your main and expansion, then trying to secure 1-2 PF whilst dropping everywhere, exchanging cheap marines for whatever you can. The zerg will continue to exchange its more expensive army with your cheaper army. But in most cases the zerg army crushes the terran army (unless hes being really outplayed early game).
Terran now is all about some small harass, grabbing expos when you can, and then harass until your opponent quits
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Honestly, I agree with the OP that Zerg seems stronger than Terran right now, whether that's the result of balance or play-style though, I have no idea.
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On October 29 2010 09:38 Galaxy77 wrote:
Well I noticied in a few recent replays where FruitdealeR gets rolled by some basic harass followed by some drops. Late game terran has just evolved into mining out your main and expansion, then trying to secure 1-2 PF whilst dropping everywhere, exchanging cheap marines for whatever you can. The zerg will continue to exchange its more expensive army with your cheaper army. But in most cases the zerg army crushes the terran army (unless hes being really outplayed early game).
Terran now is all about some small harass, grabbing expos when you can, and then harass until your opponent quits
Basically SK Terran style in SC1
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Dominican Republic463 Posts
all I have to say is watch nadas game vs leenock on shakuras. I never see terrans playing this strong macro style when they have the means to defend every fucking expansion so well, keep one/two basing and you will keep losing. that is all.
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On October 30 2010 01:56 SwaY- wrote:
all I have to say is watch nadas game vs leenock on shakuras. I never see terrans playing this strong macro style when they have the means to defend every fucking expansion so well, keep one/two basing and you will keep losing. that is all.
You have it all wrong. Terrans really have trouble getting map control, and a lot of times end up getting stuck on two bases after all their little harrasses are absorbed and the Zerg re-drones.
And when that doesn't happen and you see the Terran on two base, use common sense. Terran cannot beat Zerg in a late game macro game - that's why you see a lot of "good terrans" staying on two base, because they know if the game goes any longer they will lose guaranteed.
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On October 30 2010 02:23 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 01:56 SwaY- wrote:
all I have to say is watch nadas game vs leenock on shakuras. I never see terrans playing this strong macro style when they have the means to defend every fucking expansion so well, keep one/two basing and you will keep losing. that is all. You have it all wrong. Terrans really have trouble getting map control, and a lot of times end up getting stuck on two bases after all their little harrasses are absorbed and the Zerg re-drones. And when that doesn't happen and you see the Terran on two base, use common sense. Terran cannot beat Zerg in a late game macro game - that's why you see a lot of "good terrans" staying on two base, because they know if the game goes any longer they will lose guaranteed.
terrans dont have trouble getting map control
YOU have trouble getting map control. Please dont generalize, I'm rank 1 in my bronze league and i have absolutely no problems vs zerg so you can rest assured i know what im saying.
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The funniest thing ever would be if the final turns out to be a TvT.
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On October 30 2010 04:18 Klockan3 wrote:
The funniest thing ever would be if the final turns out to be a TvT.
Which isnt quite unlikely ....
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why is this kind of bad thread with pointelss discussion still alive?
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So lately ive been playing my tvz like tvp where I outexpand the zerg and just try to trade armies of mmm and drop the zerg. Its been working ok so far I guess but I know that its autolose if zerg gets to 4 bases before me.
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On October 31 2010 02:11 LeibSaiLeib wrote:why is this kind of bad thread with pointelss discussion still alive?
why does boxer agree with me?
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France2061 Posts
On October 30 2010 04:18 Klockan3 wrote:
The funniest thing ever would be if the final turns out to be a TvT.
Yeah, four Terrans in the Ro8... Someone must be furiously kneading their prayer beads and hoping that Zenio takes it all so that he doesn't look foolish.
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On October 31 2010 03:40 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 02:11 LeibSaiLeib wrote:why is this kind of bad thread with pointelss discussion still alive? why does boxer agree with me?
He also plays T. He has as much reason to be biased for his own race, if not more than you, because he has a career set on it. Even if the game is totally unbalanced, if you have a job dependent on it, anyone would definitely claim "the game is 100% balanced" for his own benefit. You don't have as strong as a reason to be as biased as Boxer but you're still human and selfish. I'm sure if T started out 2000 minerals while the other races started out with the usual 50, I wouldn't be surprised if you tried to justify it with the most ridiculous reasoning by saying that "T needs the MOST minerals because it's the LEAST cost efficient race!" or something like that lol, especially knowing what kind of stuff you've been spouting
Seeing as how this thread isn't closed, Im starting to believe that the higher-ups in TL overlook their own no balance discussion rule if it happens to be a certain belief that they like hearing
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On October 31 2010 04:50 lastmotion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 03:40 avilo wrote:On October 31 2010 02:11 LeibSaiLeib wrote:why is this kind of bad thread with pointelss discussion still alive? why does boxer agree with me? He also plays T. He has as much reason to be biased for his own race, if not more than you, because he has a career set on it. Even if the game is totally unbalanced, if you have a job dependent on it, anyone would definitely claim "the game is 100% balanced" for his own benefit. You don't have as strong as a reason to be as biased as Boxer but you're still human and selfish. I'm sure if T started out 2000 minerals while the other races started out with the usual 50, I wouldn't be surprised if you tried to justify it with the most ridiculous reasoning by saying that "T needs the MOST minerals because it's the LEAST cost efficient race!" or something like that lol, especially knowing what kind of stuff you've been spouting Seeing as how this thread isn't closed, Im starting to believe that the higher-ups in TL overlook their own no balance discussion rule if it happens to be a certain belief that they like hearing
are you kidding me? get out.
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So... I'd say its starting to look a lot like a T will be winning this season.
I predicted Nada at the beginning, and my money's still on the Genius Terran now that we're approaching the end.
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On October 31 2010 05:33 MrBitter wrote:
So... I'd say its starting to look a lot like NEXGenius will be winning this season.
Keep the faith alive, toss players.
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If a Terran wins this GSL, pretty sure a lot of Terran's are gonna know how idra felt last time when Zerg won GSL and he kept saying it would be so dumb if Zerg won because then everyone would think Z was balanced (which ofc it was still UP a lil at the time)
I do hope Nada wins tho now or Real boxer !
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Netherlands4511 Posts
learn how to do a 2 rax opening and solve all your problems
that was free btw, the eg guys give pretty good lessons though, so you can always contact them
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On October 31 2010 10:25 Liquid`Ret wrote:
learn how to do a 2 rax opening and solve all your problems
This. Simple as nursery rhyme.
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On October 31 2010 07:43 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 05:33 MrBitter wrote:
So... I'd say its starting to look a lot like NEXGenius will be winning this season.
Keep the faith alive, toss players.
I want him to so bad but I really think IntoTheRainbow's TvP will just outclass him.
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Siege Tanks need to be fixed. Cheaper, less supply, more cost efficient.
Until Siege tansk are more accessable and more easily replaceable Terran will never be even with the other races either OP or UP.
They were the staple of what made Terran able to combat the other races(and even itself) in BW.
Either way i think a terran likley NaDa or BoxeR will win this GSL simply because of this blog post as it'll just be karma or something trying to nail avilo just like it did to Idra and all his "there is nothing Zerg can do against ____" comments.
Though i hate Protoss with a mighty passion I gotta respect most of the toss "heroes" in that Huk, sSKS, NEXGenuis, Inca and WhiteRa never bitch much about balance at all from what i hear on TL anyways. It's always the zerg and us terrans raging at eachother and every now and then a protoss steps in a goes hey...chill the fuck out but then we just kick him in the knuts and continue our banters.
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On October 31 2010 10:25 Liquid`Ret wrote:learn how to do a 2 rax opening and solve all your problems that was free btw, the eg guys give pretty good lessons though, so you can always contact them =D
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On October 26 2010 05:05 SCC-Faust wrote:
This is ironic.
People made fun of Zerg players pre-patch, saying "all you need to do is change your style".
You know, the whole 'just figure it out' deal. And now when Terran's early game gets nerfed, the same people who insulted Zerg players for being upset in the first place are the ones crying and not even heeding their original advice.
If Zerg figured out how to deal with Terran, then maybe it is time some Terran players learn something other than reaper openings and proxy barracks. Everyone is one-dimensional, playing with siege tank/marine, then saying how imbalanced this shit is when they can't even adjust lol. I'm not saying anything in regards to balance, I just find it so funny. Especially when players like QXC and Brat_OK are prime examples of people who are experimenting and finding success with other builds.
100% agree with this post.
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Guys... It's obvious NEXGenius is going to win.
Let's look at this,
Zerg was the most UP race (by people's voice)
Thus a Zerg legend was born
Now, Protoss is the most UP race (by people's voice)
Thus a Protoss legend will be born
Of course, there is no evidence supporting this and probably are a lot of evidence contrary to my hypothesis... but you know, let's see...
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On October 31 2010 21:10 ooni wrote:
Guys... It's obvious NEXGenius is going to win.
Let's look at this,
Zerg was the most UP race (by people's voice)
Thus a Zerg legend was born
Now, Protoss is the most UP race (by people's voice)
Thus a Protoss legend will be born
Of course, there is no evidence supporting this and probably are a lot of evidence contrary to my hypothesis... but you know, let's see... the funny thing is, when zergs up zergs cry and when terrans up terrans cry. but you never see protoss crying, they truly are the manly race
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More like they were never the underdog
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On October 31 2010 22:41 We Are Here wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 21:10 ooni wrote:
Guys... It's obvious NEXGenius is going to win.
Let's look at this,
Zerg was the most UP race (by people's voice)
Thus a Zerg legend was born
Now, Protoss is the most UP race (by people's voice)
Thus a Protoss legend will be born
Of course, there is no evidence supporting this and probably are a lot of evidence contrary to my hypothesis... but you know, let's see... the funny thing is, when zergs up zergs cry and when terrans up terrans cry. but you never see protoss crying, they truly are the manly race
Rofl no. Protoss will never be the manly race. The only way Protoss is manly is when the player playing protoss bequeaths his manliness upon the protoss (ie. only Reach can make Protoss manly).
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On October 31 2010 22:41 We Are Here wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 21:10 ooni wrote:
Guys... It's obvious NEXGenius is going to win.
Let's look at this,
Zerg was the most UP race (by people's voice)
Thus a Zerg legend was born
Now, Protoss is the most UP race (by people's voice)
Thus a Protoss legend will be born
Of course, there is no evidence supporting this and probably are a lot of evidence contrary to my hypothesis... but you know, let's see... the funny thing is, when zergs up zergs cry and when terrans up terrans cry. but you never see protoss crying, they truly are the manly race
If you're excluding BW of course...
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On October 31 2010 05:03 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 04:50 lastmotion wrote:On October 31 2010 03:40 avilo wrote:On October 31 2010 02:11 LeibSaiLeib wrote:why is this kind of bad thread with pointelss discussion still alive? why does boxer agree with me? He also plays T. He has as much reason to be biased for his own race, if not more than you, because he has a career set on it. Even if the game is totally unbalanced, if you have a job dependent on it, anyone would definitely claim "the game is 100% balanced" for his own benefit. You don't have as strong as a reason to be as biased as Boxer but you're still human and selfish. I'm sure if T started out 2000 minerals while the other races started out with the usual 50, I wouldn't be surprised if you tried to justify it with the most ridiculous reasoning by saying that "T needs the MOST minerals because it's the LEAST cost efficient race!" or something like that lol, especially knowing what kind of stuff you've been spouting Seeing as how this thread isn't closed, Im starting to believe that the higher-ups in TL overlook their own no balance discussion rule if it happens to be a certain belief that they like hearing are you kidding me? get out.
How about you actually reply and refute any of his points? Also stop saying 'boxer agrees with me so it must be true'
Boxer isnt actually all that good, he had a way easier road to the ro8 then any other player currently there.
On November 01 2010 02:09 Entropic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 22:41 We Are Here wrote:On October 31 2010 21:10 ooni wrote:
Guys... It's obvious NEXGenius is going to win.
Let's look at this,
Zerg was the most UP race (by people's voice)
Thus a Zerg legend was born
Now, Protoss is the most UP race (by people's voice)
Thus a Protoss legend will be born
Of course, there is no evidence supporting this and probably are a lot of evidence contrary to my hypothesis... but you know, let's see... the funny thing is, when zergs up zergs cry and when terrans up terrans cry. but you never see protoss crying, they truly are the manly race Rofl no. Protoss will never be the manly race. The only way Protoss is manly is when the player playing protoss bequeaths his manliness upon the protoss (ie. only Reach can make Protoss manly).
There are no manly races in sc2
all eunuchs and bitches
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On November 01 2010 02:41 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 05:03 avilo wrote:On October 31 2010 04:50 lastmotion wrote:On October 31 2010 03:40 avilo wrote:On October 31 2010 02:11 LeibSaiLeib wrote:why is this kind of bad thread with pointelss discussion still alive? why does boxer agree with me? He also plays T. He has as much reason to be biased for his own race, if not more than you, because he has a career set on it. Even if the game is totally unbalanced, if you have a job dependent on it, anyone would definitely claim "the game is 100% balanced" for his own benefit. You don't have as strong as a reason to be as biased as Boxer but you're still human and selfish. I'm sure if T started out 2000 minerals while the other races started out with the usual 50, I wouldn't be surprised if you tried to justify it with the most ridiculous reasoning by saying that "T needs the MOST minerals because it's the LEAST cost efficient race!" or something like that lol, especially knowing what kind of stuff you've been spouting Seeing as how this thread isn't closed, Im starting to believe that the higher-ups in TL overlook their own no balance discussion rule if it happens to be a certain belief that they like hearing are you kidding me? get out. How about you actually reply and refute any of his points? Also stop saying 'boxer agrees with me so it must be true' Boxer isnt actually all that good, he had a way easier road to the ro8 then any other player currently there. Show nested quote +On November 01 2010 02:09 Entropic wrote:On October 31 2010 22:41 We Are Here wrote:On October 31 2010 21:10 ooni wrote:
Guys... It's obvious NEXGenius is going to win.
Let's look at this,
Zerg was the most UP race (by people's voice)
Thus a Zerg legend was born
Now, Protoss is the most UP race (by people's voice)
Thus a Protoss legend will be born
Of course, there is no evidence supporting this and probably are a lot of evidence contrary to my hypothesis... but you know, let's see... the funny thing is, when zergs up zergs cry and when terrans up terrans cry. but you never see protoss crying, they truly are the manly race Rofl no. Protoss will never be the manly race. The only way Protoss is manly is when the player playing protoss bequeaths his manliness upon the protoss (ie. only Reach can make Protoss manly). There are no manly races in sc2 all eunuchs and bitches
He's trying to claim boxer wants the game imbalanced or has some bias because boxer wants to win all the prize moneY...LOFL. My response was appropriate. He just tried to take a shit on the biggest e-sports legend ever, who probably has more money than he can even handle LMAO.
Boxer is trying to influence the balance of the game because he wants to win money!!!! REALLY? LOL
In response to boxer's easy road to ro8, you're absolutely right. He's gotten basically all TvTs...even I'd be able to make it to ro8 GSL with all TvTs. I don't think they purposely rigged the tourney like that, but yeah...if he'd run up against a bunch of Zerg's he'd have been out way earlier.
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On November 01 2010 05:10 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2010 02:41 TheAntZ wrote:On October 31 2010 05:03 avilo wrote:On October 31 2010 04:50 lastmotion wrote:On October 31 2010 03:40 avilo wrote:On October 31 2010 02:11 LeibSaiLeib wrote:why is this kind of bad thread with pointelss discussion still alive? why does boxer agree with me? He also plays T. He has as much reason to be biased for his own race, if not more than you, because he has a career set on it. Even if the game is totally unbalanced, if you have a job dependent on it, anyone would definitely claim "the game is 100% balanced" for his own benefit. You don't have as strong as a reason to be as biased as Boxer but you're still human and selfish. I'm sure if T started out 2000 minerals while the other races started out with the usual 50, I wouldn't be surprised if you tried to justify it with the most ridiculous reasoning by saying that "T needs the MOST minerals because it's the LEAST cost efficient race!" or something like that lol, especially knowing what kind of stuff you've been spouting Seeing as how this thread isn't closed, Im starting to believe that the higher-ups in TL overlook their own no balance discussion rule if it happens to be a certain belief that they like hearing are you kidding me? get out. How about you actually reply and refute any of his points? Also stop saying 'boxer agrees with me so it must be true' Boxer isnt actually all that good, he had a way easier road to the ro8 then any other player currently there. On November 01 2010 02:09 Entropic wrote:On October 31 2010 22:41 We Are Here wrote:On October 31 2010 21:10 ooni wrote:
Guys... It's obvious NEXGenius is going to win.
Let's look at this,
Zerg was the most UP race (by people's voice)
Thus a Zerg legend was born
Now, Protoss is the most UP race (by people's voice)
Thus a Protoss legend will be born
Of course, there is no evidence supporting this and probably are a lot of evidence contrary to my hypothesis... but you know, let's see... the funny thing is, when zergs up zergs cry and when terrans up terrans cry. but you never see protoss crying, they truly are the manly race Rofl no. Protoss will never be the manly race. The only way Protoss is manly is when the player playing protoss bequeaths his manliness upon the protoss (ie. only Reach can make Protoss manly). There are no manly races in sc2 all eunuchs and bitches He's trying to claim boxer wants the game imbalanced or has some bias because boxer wants to win all the prize moneY...LOFL. My response was appropriate. He just tried to take a shit on the biggest e-sports legend ever, who probably has more money than he can even handle LMAO. Boxer is trying to influence the balance of the game because he wants to win money!!!! REALLY? LOL In response to boxer's easy road to ro8, you're absolutely right. He's gotten basically all TvTs... even I'd be able to make it to ro8 GSL with all TvTs. I don't think they purposely rigged the tourney like that, but yeah...if he'd run up against a bunch of Zerg's he'd have been out way earlier.
Are you really claiming you could beat 3 pro gamers Bo3 in a row? Really?
News flash. You can't.
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I didnt say he wants the game to be imbalanced. I implied he couldnt see it objectively because hes biased. Which is true for almost any player who picks a race
extremely true for you in particular
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On November 01 2010 02:09 Entropic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2010 22:41 We Are Here wrote:On October 31 2010 21:10 ooni wrote:
Guys... It's obvious NEXGenius is going to win.
Let's look at this,
Zerg was the most UP race (by people's voice)
Thus a Zerg legend was born
Now, Protoss is the most UP race (by people's voice)
Thus a Protoss legend will be born
Of course, there is no evidence supporting this and probably are a lot of evidence contrary to my hypothesis... but you know, let's see... the funny thing is, when zergs up zergs cry and when terrans up terrans cry. but you never see protoss crying, they truly are the manly race Rofl no. Protoss will never be the manly race. The only way Protoss is manly is when the player playing protoss bequeaths his manliness upon the protoss (ie. only Reach can make Protoss manly).
Protoss has always been the manly race, fighting, fighting against the overwhelming whining and high-profile players of the other races. On one hand, you have Fruitdealer. On the other, Boxer. What do we have? Sangho who forgets a forcefield and instantly dies. Shit son, we're still using guys in power armor when even the insects have evolved ranged attacks. Why? Balls.
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On October 26 2010 04:38 avilo wrote:
This is going to be the easiest prediction ever, as well as slight rant.
I cannot see any race other than a Zerg like idra or fruitdealer winning GSL2. This is not a matter of "just play better and recognize your mistakes." Zerg is right now the strongest race (again) and I predict a ZvZ finals, with idra versus fruitdealer.
Or it could be any other two Zergs in the finals. Assuming somehow it is not a ZvZ final and some protoss or terran gimmicks their way to the finals, if the final is ZvT, Zerg absolutely is the winner of GSL2.
If it's a PvZ in the finals, it is a toss-up. And at this point in time, predicting a TvP finals is laughable.
The others simply stand no chance.
lol, both are eliminated. I'm pretty sure we are gonna see nada vs genius tvp final. and genius probably gonna win.
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On November 01 2010 06:37 frogmelter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2010 05:10 avilo wrote:On November 01 2010 02:41 TheAntZ wrote:On October 31 2010 05:03 avilo wrote:On October 31 2010 04:50 lastmotion wrote:On October 31 2010 03:40 avilo wrote:On October 31 2010 02:11 LeibSaiLeib wrote:why is this kind of bad thread with pointelss discussion still alive? why does boxer agree with me? He also plays T. He has as much reason to be biased for his own race, if not more than you, because he has a career set on it. Even if the game is totally unbalanced, if you have a job dependent on it, anyone would definitely claim "the game is 100% balanced" for his own benefit. You don't have as strong as a reason to be as biased as Boxer but you're still human and selfish. I'm sure if T started out 2000 minerals while the other races started out with the usual 50, I wouldn't be surprised if you tried to justify it with the most ridiculous reasoning by saying that "T needs the MOST minerals because it's the LEAST cost efficient race!" or something like that lol, especially knowing what kind of stuff you've been spouting Seeing as how this thread isn't closed, Im starting to believe that the higher-ups in TL overlook their own no balance discussion rule if it happens to be a certain belief that they like hearing are you kidding me? get out. How about you actually reply and refute any of his points? Also stop saying 'boxer agrees with me so it must be true' Boxer isnt actually all that good, he had a way easier road to the ro8 then any other player currently there. On November 01 2010 02:09 Entropic wrote:On October 31 2010 22:41 We Are Here wrote:On October 31 2010 21:10 ooni wrote:
Guys... It's obvious NEXGenius is going to win.
Let's look at this,
Zerg was the most UP race (by people's voice)
Thus a Zerg legend was born
Now, Protoss is the most UP race (by people's voice)
Thus a Protoss legend will be born
Of course, there is no evidence supporting this and probably are a lot of evidence contrary to my hypothesis... but you know, let's see... the funny thing is, when zergs up zergs cry and when terrans up terrans cry. but you never see protoss crying, they truly are the manly race Rofl no. Protoss will never be the manly race. The only way Protoss is manly is when the player playing protoss bequeaths his manliness upon the protoss (ie. only Reach can make Protoss manly). There are no manly races in sc2 all eunuchs and bitches He's trying to claim boxer wants the game imbalanced or has some bias because boxer wants to win all the prize moneY...LOFL. My response was appropriate. He just tried to take a shit on the biggest e-sports legend ever, who probably has more money than he can even handle LMAO. Boxer is trying to influence the balance of the game because he wants to win money!!!! REALLY? LOL In response to boxer's easy road to ro8, you're absolutely right. He's gotten basically all TvTs... even I'd be able to make it to ro8 GSL with all TvTs. I don't think they purposely rigged the tourney like that, but yeah...if he'd run up against a bunch of Zerg's he'd have been out way earlier. Are you really claiming you could beat 3 pro gamers Bo3 in a row? Really? News flash. You can't.
That's usually the cue that traditional methods of discussion like "logic" and "reality" aren't going to apply here.
I don't see any Z making it to finals, think P will win, they are the strongest race according to a progamer(s)' interview.
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On November 01 2010 06:37 frogmelter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2010 05:10 avilo wrote:On November 01 2010 02:41 TheAntZ wrote:On October 31 2010 05:03 avilo wrote:On October 31 2010 04:50 lastmotion wrote:On October 31 2010 03:40 avilo wrote:On October 31 2010 02:11 LeibSaiLeib wrote:why is this kind of bad thread with pointelss discussion still alive? why does boxer agree with me? He also plays T. He has as much reason to be biased for his own race, if not more than you, because he has a career set on it. Even if the game is totally unbalanced, if you have a job dependent on it, anyone would definitely claim "the game is 100% balanced" for his own benefit. You don't have as strong as a reason to be as biased as Boxer but you're still human and selfish. I'm sure if T started out 2000 minerals while the other races started out with the usual 50, I wouldn't be surprised if you tried to justify it with the most ridiculous reasoning by saying that "T needs the MOST minerals because it's the LEAST cost efficient race!" or something like that lol, especially knowing what kind of stuff you've been spouting Seeing as how this thread isn't closed, Im starting to believe that the higher-ups in TL overlook their own no balance discussion rule if it happens to be a certain belief that they like hearing are you kidding me? get out. How about you actually reply and refute any of his points? Also stop saying 'boxer agrees with me so it must be true' Boxer isnt actually all that good, he had a way easier road to the ro8 then any other player currently there. On November 01 2010 02:09 Entropic wrote:On October 31 2010 22:41 We Are Here wrote:On October 31 2010 21:10 ooni wrote:
Guys... It's obvious NEXGenius is going to win.
Let's look at this,
Zerg was the most UP race (by people's voice)
Thus a Zerg legend was born
Now, Protoss is the most UP race (by people's voice)
Thus a Protoss legend will be born
Of course, there is no evidence supporting this and probably are a lot of evidence contrary to my hypothesis... but you know, let's see... the funny thing is, when zergs up zergs cry and when terrans up terrans cry. but you never see protoss crying, they truly are the manly race Rofl no. Protoss will never be the manly race. The only way Protoss is manly is when the player playing protoss bequeaths his manliness upon the protoss (ie. only Reach can make Protoss manly). There are no manly races in sc2 all eunuchs and bitches He's trying to claim boxer wants the game imbalanced or has some bias because boxer wants to win all the prize moneY...LOFL. My response was appropriate. He just tried to take a shit on the biggest e-sports legend ever, who probably has more money than he can even handle LMAO. Boxer is trying to influence the balance of the game because he wants to win money!!!! REALLY? LOL In response to boxer's easy road to ro8, you're absolutely right. He's gotten basically all TvTs... even I'd be able to make it to ro8 GSL with all TvTs. I don't think they purposely rigged the tourney like that, but yeah...if he'd run up against a bunch of Zerg's he'd have been out way earlier. Are you really claiming you could beat 3 pro gamers Bo3 in a row? Really? News flash. You can't.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/exaggeration
Also, during beta when servers were not split I did.
Anyways, that's not the point. I was trying to point out that what theantz said could be somewhat true...that boxer isn't that great at SC2 yet, but he was lucky to get a lot of TvT that he is very good at and would also by getting lots of TvT he would not have to deal with any imba stuff since...it's TvT.
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Exaggeration is terrible for debating. It really weakens your arguments, especially online where there is no tone and people really have no way of telling if you're exaggeration without assuming.
And while you might have done it a while ago, beta is a long time ago. The skill gap for pros and top diamond have widened quite a bit.
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I think tonight is the night to watch GSL.
IntotheRainbow is known for his TvP and NEXGenius murdered Loner PvT at Blizzcon.
I wouldn't underestimate ITR to be honest, he is an absolute beast. And honestly it is going to be a clash of play-styles. ITR loves to fast expand and play a macro game, whereas NEXGenius is very aggressive PvT, usually opting for an expansion a lot later. It really depends on how ITR defends the first few attacks. But I'm not sure, Genius did do some unique FE build(s) verse Loner at Blizzcon, although only one comes to mind.
Btw I wouldn't argue with the OP the clearly isn't reading anyone's posts but his own.
Anyone who thinks their opinion is weighted as fact against pages and pages of statistics isn't worth arguing with.
Apparently it is too hard for some people to fathom that you can actually form conclusions with data you are given.
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I don't understand why T's don't macro up more.
When i roll T, I end up FEing. Zergs can drone up faster, but T actually has an econ advantage on the same amount of bases because mules are amazing. Try to deny the third, thor,tank,marine push.
I'm not gosu or anything, and maybe it only works cause I play random... but it def works against 1200-1400 diamond players.
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With Boxer in this = no way!!
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avilo stop crying and man up. You said idra or cool would win GSL2??? they both got eliminated( cool lost to a terran). Just because your race gets nerfed once in a while doesn't mean you have to cry like a lil girl on TL forums. And zergs don't balance things its Blizzard who does that.
Don't like your race? change to zerg then.
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The only problem with TvZ is that terran players have been spoiled rotten for the last two months, and now suddenly have to play a fair game.
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Poland2276 Posts
And reapers...have been effectively removed from the game.
I am really curious how Terrans will start to use them again.
Since pure Reaper all ins are eliminated, the only use left is to combine them with other forces.
I was wondering how viable would it be to make very few Reapers mainly to scout and distract and later "recycle" them by researching their speed upgrade some time after Factory is done.
It's 50/50/100s after all.
I think they may be a good addition to Hellion drops - recent GSL games are showing how hard it is to kill workers with Hellions alone when defender can spread his workers well.
Reapers can finnish off drones and probes damaged by blue flames:
24(blue flame) + 18(1 shot from a Reaper) = 42(dead Drone/Probe)
They don't take Medivac's cargo space. They can be healed by Medivac which is not going to use it's energy on anything soon, possibly making them more durable than Hellions.
BTW Hellions themselves are so underused, why no one is trying to kite lings at all?
Single Thor and a bunch of Marines can handle a lot of mutas, there are minerals to spare on Hellions IMO.
A lot of whine comes down to so many Ts being completely, utterly, incapable of any sort of harassment in the late game too, again, in my opinion.
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It is safe to say that Terran has a huge chance to win GSL this season.
Nice speculation OP, unfortunate your opinion didn't hold.
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Well after tonight's games It looks like....
+ Show Spoiler +
Zenio or Zergbong are the OP's last hope for credibility - with Rainbow and FakeBoxer going through there will be at least 1 T in the finals, with TvT a strong possibility.
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On October 28 2010 05:00 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 04:55 teamsolid wrote:
Typical fail whiner blog, just look at GSL2 and learn to play aggressively. ZOMG fruitdealer lost!!1111!!! Still going to be two zergs in the finals. And that doesn't invalidate how strong Z is vs T right now. And statistics don't mean jack shit when it comes to balance. Hilarious, you kids post ur smartass bullshit "omg fruitdealer lost!" but then if people last patch post "fruitdealer won GSL...he's a Zerg" you wouldn't be so quick to post your non witty comments. Instead you go, "that doesn't mean anything!" so stfu hypocrits just wait zvz finals!
I'm curious - what are you going to say now? Arguably the best zergs - idra and fruitdealer, have been eliminated. At best, only one zerg can possibly make it to the finals. So here are your options..
1) Keep ignoring everyone else posting and hope that either zenio or zergbong wins the finals. If one of them does you can be like "HAHAHA I WAS RIGHT ZERG OP NERF PLZ" even though the semis will have included three terran players and only one zerg player, If a terran wins, you either stop responding to the thread and hopes everyone forgets about it (we won't, lol), or go to option 2 or 3.
2) State that you should have been right, but a few chancy irregularities caused you to be wrong. "WELL IF ONLY IDRA HAD WON ZvZ HE WOULD HAVE WON GSL AND I WOULD BE RIGHT" This would be really funny, and would make you look even better (read: worse) than you already do.
3) Man up, admit that your opinion is wrong and there are players who understand the game and the TvZ matchup better than you do. Realize that the game might be balanced after all - at least certainly more balanced than you make it out to be. In other words, take your own advice (it is good advice) and qq less
On September 09 2010 09:47 avilo wrote:
solution: play the game it is and get better at it.
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On November 02 2010 01:48 getSome[703] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 05:00 avilo wrote:On October 28 2010 04:55 teamsolid wrote:
Typical fail whiner blog, just look at GSL2 and learn to play aggressively. ZOMG fruitdealer lost!!1111!!! Still going to be two zergs in the finals. And that doesn't invalidate how strong Z is vs T right now. And statistics don't mean jack shit when it comes to balance. Hilarious, you kids post ur smartass bullshit "omg fruitdealer lost!" but then if people last patch post "fruitdealer won GSL...he's a Zerg" you wouldn't be so quick to post your non witty comments. Instead you go, "that doesn't mean anything!" so stfu hypocrits just wait zvz finals! I'm curious - what are you going to say now? Arguably the best zergs - idra and fruitdealer, have been eliminated. At best, only one zerg can possibly make it to the finals. So here are your options.. 1) Keep ignoring everyone else posting and hope that either zenio or zergbong wins the finals. If one of them does you can be like "HAHAHA I WAS RIGHT ZERG OP NERF PLZ" even though the semis will have included three terran players and only one zerg player, If a terran wins, you either stop responding to the thread and hopes everyone forgets about it (we won't, lol), or go to option 2 or 3. 2) State that you should have been right, but a few chancy irregularities caused you to be wrong. "WELL IF ONLY IDRA HAD WON ZvZ HE WOULD HAVE WON GSL AND I WOULD BE RIGHT" This would be really funny, and would make you look even better (read: worse) than you already do. 3) Man up, admit that your opinion is wrong and there are players who understand the game and the TvZ matchup better than you do. Realize that the game might be balanced after all - at least certainly more balanced than you make it out to be. In other words, take your own advice (it is good advice) and qq less Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 09:47 avilo wrote:
solution: play the game it is and get better at it.
Idra played a ZvZ. Fruitdealer...facepalm games.
I don't think i've ignored anyone, and it doesn't change the balance situation, just like a Zerg winning GSL1 didn't change the fact Zerg was underpowered.
Eh...I'm not afraid to admit many of my predictions were wrong (obviously). I honestly do not see how foxer beat fruitdealer, and then now has beat zyrix. Well, actually I could see him beating zyrix cause zyrix makes horrible decisions. Mass marines..."hey, i won't build infestors!" lol.
And...well, not much to say. Look at how the slayersboxer got to the semi-finals. Virtually all TvT. He's secretly smiling right now because he miraculously managed to avoid all the good Zergs. And he may even get a TvT finals now if the last Zerg guy plays bad too (assuming he beats nada).
In response to 3...lol. I never said that I wasn't wrong about many of the predictions so far. You like many others love to attack someone when they do happen to be wrong, I already admitted I was wrong on many predictions. But once again, just because a Terran right now has a good possibility of winning GSL does not mean TvZ is balanced. Just like season 1, zerg was underpowered, but Fruitdealer won GSL because intotherainbow played like total trash.
Also, for people crying at me to look at statistics of this GSL...go look at them yourself. They actually support my arguments. There were more Terran players than others in GSL2, and lots of Terrans made ro8/semis...who would have thought!
Now go look at ZvT/TvZ statistics in GSL2. It's heavily in favor of Zerg the last time I checked (not including foxer's recent win).
Just because a lot of my predictions were wrong does not mean my balance analysis is wrong
Anyways, there's 1 last Zerg, so my prediction isn't totally blown yet TvZ finals gogogo lol!
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Eh...I'm not afraid to admit many of my predictions were wrong (obviously). I honestly do not see how foxer beat fruitdealer, and then now has beat zyrix. Well, actually I could see him beating zyrix cause zyrix makes horrible decisions. Mass marines..."hey, i won't build infestors!" lol.
And even if a zerg won the GSL, you could turn this argument right around and say it was due to the poor play of T.
So I'm not sure where you're going with this argument--it makes you seem desperate.
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On November 02 2010 05:24 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 01:48 getSome[703] wrote:On October 28 2010 05:00 avilo wrote:On October 28 2010 04:55 teamsolid wrote:
Typical fail whiner blog, just look at GSL2 and learn to play aggressively. ZOMG fruitdealer lost!!1111!!! Still going to be two zergs in the finals. And that doesn't invalidate how strong Z is vs T right now. And statistics don't mean jack shit when it comes to balance. Hilarious, you kids post ur smartass bullshit "omg fruitdealer lost!" but then if people last patch post "fruitdealer won GSL...he's a Zerg" you wouldn't be so quick to post your non witty comments. Instead you go, "that doesn't mean anything!" so stfu hypocrits just wait zvz finals! I'm curious - what are you going to say now? Arguably the best zergs - idra and fruitdealer, have been eliminated. At best, only one zerg can possibly make it to the finals. So here are your options.. 1) Keep ignoring everyone else posting and hope that either zenio or zergbong wins the finals. If one of them does you can be like "HAHAHA I WAS RIGHT ZERG OP NERF PLZ" even though the semis will have included three terran players and only one zerg player, If a terran wins, you either stop responding to the thread and hopes everyone forgets about it (we won't, lol), or go to option 2 or 3. 2) State that you should have been right, but a few chancy irregularities caused you to be wrong. "WELL IF ONLY IDRA HAD WON ZvZ HE WOULD HAVE WON GSL AND I WOULD BE RIGHT" This would be really funny, and would make you look even better (read: worse) than you already do. 3) Man up, admit that your opinion is wrong and there are players who understand the game and the TvZ matchup better than you do. Realize that the game might be balanced after all - at least certainly more balanced than you make it out to be. In other words, take your own advice (it is good advice) and qq less On September 09 2010 09:47 avilo wrote:
solution: play the game it is and get better at it. Idra played a ZvZ. Fruitdealer...facepalm games. I don't think i've ignored anyone, and it doesn't change the balance situation, just like a Zerg winning GSL1 didn't change the fact Zerg was underpowered. Eh...I'm not afraid to admit many of my predictions were wrong (obviously). I honestly do not see how foxer beat fruitdealer, and then now has beat zyrix. Well, actually I could see him beating zyrix cause zyrix makes horrible decisions. Mass marines..."hey, i won't build infestors!" lol. And...well, not much to say. Look at how the slayersboxer got to the semi-finals. Virtually all TvT. He's secretly smiling right now because he miraculously managed to avoid all the good Zergs. And he may even get a TvT finals now if the last Zerg guy plays bad too (assuming he beats nada). In response to 3...lol. I never said that I wasn't wrong about many of the predictions so far. You like many others love to attack someone when they do happen to be wrong, I already admitted I was wrong on many predictions. But once again, just because a Terran right now has a good possibility of winning GSL does not mean TvZ is balanced. Just like season 1, zerg was underpowered, but Fruitdealer won GSL because intotherainbow played like total trash. Also, for people crying at me to look at statistics of this GSL...go look at them yourself. They actually support my arguments. There were more Terran players than others in GSL2, and lots of Terrans made ro8/semis...who would have thought! Now go look at ZvT/TvZ statistics in GSL2. It's heavily in favor of Zerg the last time I checked (not including foxer's recent win). Just because a lot of my predictions were wrong does not mean my balance analysis is wrong Anyways, there's 1 last Zerg, so my prediction isn't totally blown yet TvZ finals gogogo lol!
The thing I've noticed is that early in the tournament, Zerg's were winning handily... But this was also only days after 1.1.2.
Since then the game has evolved a great deal, and the TvZ's we've seen since then have been exciting, great games, and the Terrans that have won have done so handily.
You can't facepalm at Foxer's defeat of FruitDealer. It was absolute domination.
I think the TvZ matchup is in a really good place right now, and as a Zerg player, have been losing far more to Terrans than to Toss.
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On November 02 2010 05:24 avilo wrote:Just because a lot of my predictions were wrong does not mean my balance analysis is wrong
Actually yes, you are wrong. The only players who agree with you are other whiny Terrans who don't know how to adapt.
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On November 02 2010 09:20 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 05:24 avilo wrote:Just because a lot of my predictions were wrong does not mean my balance analysis is wrong Actually yes, you are wrong. The only players who agree with you are other whiny Terrans who don't know how to adapt.
Agreed.
Avilo has always been this way I am surprised he's getting so much attention. Look at all his previous posts even in live report threads he cry's about tvz imbalance because he doesn't know how to play the match up. Sorry you can't stay on 2 base, turtle and then win. Doesn't work that way anymore.
Avilo is a hypocrite as when terran was considered OP and zergs were crying he would say things like "zergs don't know how to play" "zergs just need to start doing this, this and this and not suck". Oh hypocrite at its best.
Honestly Fake boxer vs Kryxx is a great example he went pure marine the first game and still won. Now people are saying Fungle growth if he saw the infestors and spread his marines the fungel would get like 4 by the time it gest there (watch Nada on xelnaga he see's banelings/infestor and spreads his marines so godlike that fungle only got 4 marines rofl).
Also with the amount of aggression that fake boxer did in g1 there really wasn't an opportunity to make an infestation pit, make infestors + banelings and not die or get dealt a lot of damage. Here are some things to note in the game as fake boxer was being aggressive ALL game. If zerg had made an infestation pit + infestor (thats like 300 gas I believe) awesome he has less banelings (and assuming he didn't somehow die to not having the amount of banelings he needed to keep holding off) he still has to wait for the infestor to get that 25 energy for fungel growth.
If zerg had gotten infestors in that game 1 I am pretty confident he would have lost sooner or been dealt so much damage before infestors got the energy for fungel growth that it would have only delayed the inevitable.
Also to say one more thing I am positive the winner of Boxer vs Nada (I think Nada) will win GSL and finals will be TvT of Nada vs Fake boxer (possibly Rainbow)
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What Blade says above is confirmed by FoxeR himself in a post game interview
Q. KyrixZenith never used infestor against you.
A. If the zerg went infestors, they tended to be overwhelmed by my aggression during practice. He definitely made the right choice of not making infestors I think.
full transcript
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=165570
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omg, i saw the kyrix game 5 vs foxer. Why is everyone jumping on foxer's cock for awesome marine control n such? He does indeed have great marine micro and splits...but LOFL...everyone completely ignores that kyrix threw away that game so badly it's not even funny?
He had a 100% secure win if he just knew how to macro instead of randomly making banelings. sighs...now everyone is going to think they can win with LOLmarines and get stomped on ladder by the good zergs that know how to play lmao.
and no infestors...LMAO.
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On November 03 2010 03:57 avilo wrote:
He had a 100% secure win if he just knew how to macro instead of randomly making banelings. sighs...now everyone is going to think they can win with LOLmarines and get stomped on ladder by the good zergs that know how to play lmao.
Because people on Teamliquid are going to face better Zerg than Kyrix, right?
That game definitely went over your head.
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On November 03 2010 04:01 SCC-Faust wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 03:57 avilo wrote:
He had a 100% secure win if he just knew how to macro instead of randomly making banelings. sighs...now everyone is going to think they can win with LOLmarines and get stomped on ladder by the good zergs that know how to play lmao. Because people on Teamliquid are going to face better Zerg than Kyrix, right? That game definitely went over your head.
He's an idiot no matter how much evidence points to how tvz isn't imba for zerg he ignores it. He wants tvz to be imba for zerg so he can blame his losses on it. Its how he's always been and why nobody has respect for him as a player ^^.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
game 5 of foxer vs zyrix was very back and forth and kyrix never had the feeling of safety needed to invest heavily into infestors, its easy to say looking at the game while seeing the whole map that he shouldve gone infestors and done more than 'randomly' making banelings but the game was very close and his descisions definately paid off in the mid game.
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On November 03 2010 04:37 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 04:01 SCC-Faust wrote:On November 03 2010 03:57 avilo wrote:
He had a 100% secure win if he just knew how to macro instead of randomly making banelings. sighs...now everyone is going to think they can win with LOLmarines and get stomped on ladder by the good zergs that know how to play lmao. Because people on Teamliquid are going to face better Zerg than Kyrix, right? That game definitely went over your head. He's an idiot no matter how much evidence points to how tvz isn't imba for zerg he ignores it. He wants tvz to be imba for zerg so he can blame his losses on it. Its how he's always been and why nobody has respect for him as a player ^^.
why do you and other people continually call me an "idiot" and attack me personally when I continue to comment on the games played and point out obvious things?
Seems like if you can't analyze the game it's easier to just "bash" the OP. lmao. I admit the way I post makes that quite an easy trap to fall into...but just keep your head cool
On November 03 2010 04:39 Liquid`Ret wrote:
game 5 of foxer vs zyrix was very back and forth and kyrix never had the feeling of safety needed to invest heavily into infestors, its easy to say looking at the game while seeing the whole map that he shouldve gone infestors and done more than 'randomly' making banelings but the game was very close and his descisions definately paid off in the mid game.
well that is a good point...guess from spectator point of view could easily tell kyrix was ahead. But you would have thought..."i have over half the map in creep, he's barely on two base...i just killed all his units...drone up -> infestor."
I don't think he ever used any changelings either did he? I guess you can say that, but at that tip top level to not realize he had a huge advantage...seems pretty much like a thrown away game. Of course they are under intense pressure so yah...from a spectator view though that is so frustrating lol.
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On November 03 2010 03:57 avilo wrote:
and no infestors...LMAO.
I did think krix threw away game 5 but it made for an interesting comeback.
Foxer said in an interview that infestors would have taken too long to get energy.
Edit- I think you are overestimated how strong zerg actually is atm. I think its a fairly balanced game right now.
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On November 03 2010 04:48 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 04:37 blade55555 wrote:On November 03 2010 04:01 SCC-Faust wrote:On November 03 2010 03:57 avilo wrote:
He had a 100% secure win if he just knew how to macro instead of randomly making banelings. sighs...now everyone is going to think they can win with LOLmarines and get stomped on ladder by the good zergs that know how to play lmao. Because people on Teamliquid are going to face better Zerg than Kyrix, right? That game definitely went over your head. He's an idiot no matter how much evidence points to how tvz isn't imba for zerg he ignores it. He wants tvz to be imba for zerg so he can blame his losses on it. Its how he's always been and why nobody has respect for him as a player ^^. why do you and other people continually call me an "idiot" and attack me personally when I continue to comment on the games played and point out obvious things? Seems like if you can't analyze the game it's easier to just "bash" the OP. lmao. I admit the way I post makes that quite an easy trap to fall into...but just keep your head cool Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 04:39 Liquid`Ret wrote:
game 5 of foxer vs zyrix was very back and forth and kyrix never had the feeling of safety needed to invest heavily into infestors, its easy to say looking at the game while seeing the whole map that he shouldve gone infestors and done more than 'randomly' making banelings but the game was very close and his descisions definately paid off in the mid game. well that is a good point...guess from spectator point of view could easily tell kyrix was ahead. But you would have thought..."i have over half the map in creep, he's barely on two base...i just killed all his units...drone up -> infestor." I don't think he ever used any changelings either did he? I guess you can say that, but at that tip top level to not realize he had a huge advantage...seems pretty much like a thrown away game. Of course they are under intense pressure so yah...from a spectator view though that is so frustrating lol.
It is very hard to take any balance discussions seriously with you posting as whenever you struggle terran UP and the other race is OP. When you were probably winning 90% of the games tvz you were saying "learn to play don't blame balance" but when the game balances out you say "terran sucks needs boost zerg is OP". Its all you do and its all your past 20 posts have been in almost every topic i see you post in its how terran sucks and needs a boost. Very hard to take someone like this seriously at all.
Again if your watching the games as you say you have you wouldn't still be saying how terran sucks and zerg needs a nerf or terran needs a boost. zvt is the most balanced its been sense like ever. If one or the other gets nerfed or boosted it will break the mu again. But then again you think its already imba for zerg so whatever lol thats what you want anyway a terran boost.
I did find it funny how you were saying semi finals 4 zergs and all that but fake boxer/nada were able to take down zergs in good games not a complete 1 sided rape every game (except for fake vs fruitdealer but that was bad scouting/overlord position). MVP vs Zenio is arguably one of the best tvz's the game has had so far and shows that tvz isn't broken like it was before. Ever sense the patch tvz has gotten 100 times more interesting and very fun to watch just like in BW. So I hope they don't know touch tvz at all or its going to break the game 1 boost or nerf can fuck up tvz again and that will be very frustrating. You can think its broken all you want but hopefully someday you realize just how wrong you are. Maybe you'll never see it but most players well.
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On November 03 2010 03:57 avilo wrote:
omg, i saw the kyrix game 5 vs foxer. Why is everyone jumping on foxer's cock for awesome marine control n such? He does indeed have great marine micro and splits...but LOFL...everyone completely ignores that kyrix threw away that game so badly it's not even funny?
He had a 100% secure win if he just knew how to macro instead of randomly making banelings. sighs...now everyone is going to think they can win with LOLmarines and get stomped on ladder by the good zergs that know how to play lmao.
and no infestors...LMAO.
Please enlighten me at what timing would have been optimal for him to get infestors? You're so blind. Everyone makes mistakes - you're acting like because the Zerg didn't play perfectly that it means nothing. How about many Terrans haven't been either? Foxer made a ton of mistakes as well (nonetheless that entires series was epic).
Completely mindblowing. All the Terrans used to say "oh, the Zergs are just playing poorly, that's why Terran is dominating." Despite the fact 3/4 players in the semis are T's this season, and with the lone Z coming through on a ZvZ match, we still use the excuse "oh, the Zergs are just playing poorly."
EDIT: I think Zerg has a slight advantage at the moment. With the coming of the new patch, I switched to Terran from Zerg as I disagreed with the changes. Having played T for at least 3 weeks now and starting to gain back points I lost (I dropped to around 1550), I am hovering back around 1800 pts. Although TvT used to be my worst MU, after I came up with my own build, it is now by far my best. I have very quirky builds, but the only thing I seemed to really have noticed is that you have to be aggressive vs Z much more than previously and that roach range kills hellion Thor a million times better than it used to. At the very least, bring Nitro packs back to rax for 100/100 and make Roach Range an upgrade costing 50/50 to at least give some time while Roaches can be kited.
EDIT2: While I've seen you at the top, when I was playing the most I was ranked 25th in the top 200 for Zerg players (which meant like 120 overall :-/). So I have at least a grasp on what I was doing, even if I've been knocked out of the top 200 since switching to T.
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what i don't understand is why people come cry on the forums after there's a significant patch that alters the gameplay (i.e. roach range), you come here after you lose 2 games claiming the universe is gonna end because a zerg is suddenly OP.
i suggest you to try to adapt, it can take months. you should open your mind a little bit
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On November 03 2010 07:30 PredY wrote:
what i don't understand is why people come cry on the forums after there's a significant patch that alters the gameplay (i.e. roach range), you come here after you lose 2 games claiming the universe is gonna end because a zerg is suddenly OP.
i suggest you to try to adapt, it can take months. you should open your mind a little bit
why do you assume that it was only after losing 2 games? Or that it is even just me that thinks Zerg has a huge advantage? I do not get this thinking. If I had only played 2 games against something I wouldn't bother posting about it on the forums.
This is after, many, many games, and seeing the same trends...over..and over...even boxer in his interview after his game vs nada refers to how strong zerg is versus terran. All his practice partners lol @ how ez it is to zvt.
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On November 03 2010 07:43 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 07:30 PredY wrote:
what i don't understand is why people come cry on the forums after there's a significant patch that alters the gameplay (i.e. roach range), you come here after you lose 2 games claiming the universe is gonna end because a zerg is suddenly OP.
i suggest you to try to adapt, it can take months. you should open your mind a little bit why do you assume that it was only after losing 2 games? Or that it is even just me that thinks Zerg has a huge advantage? I do not get this thinking. If I had only played 2 games against something I wouldn't bother posting about it on the forums. This is after, many, many games, and seeing the same trends...over..and over...even boxer in his interview after his game vs nada refers to how strong zerg is versus terran. All his practice partners lol @ how ez it is to zvt.
Try something new! Be creative and use sensor towers more. Don't worry about them costing a lot. Just use them more.
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So you listen to professional testimonies selectively. When Boxer says TvZ is hard you jump on it, but when Foxer says that it's hard for a Zerg to just tech to infesters you just ignore it and ramble on and on about it.
Hmm.
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On November 03 2010 07:43 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 07:30 PredY wrote:
what i don't understand is why people come cry on the forums after there's a significant patch that alters the gameplay (i.e. roach range), you come here after you lose 2 games claiming the universe is gonna end because a zerg is suddenly OP.
i suggest you to try to adapt, it can take months. you should open your mind a little bit why do you assume that it was only after losing 2 games? Or that it is even just me that thinks Zerg has a huge advantage? I do not get this thinking. If I had only played 2 games against something I wouldn't bother posting about it on the forums. This is after, many, many games, and seeing the same trends...over..and over...even boxer in his interview after his game vs nada refers to how strong zerg is versus terran. All his practice partners lol @ how ez it is to zvt.
yeah sorry i meant "2 games" as "a very short time after a balance patch"
what i wanted to say is i don't like such thinking, i'd like to see players try more stuff before they give up and start threads of races being OP.
what i think is, tvz was very much broken in favor of terran, after recent patches zerg got buffed and the thinking stayed the same, i.e. i'm just better than this player because i beat him 20-0 when tvz was broken, but i can't beat him now because my builds don't work anymore so it must be broken.
i'm not attacking you avilo. i'd like players tried more before claiming a race is OP you know
edit: i assume tvz WAS broken (hell the tanks were just too strong..) even if it wasn't and we didn't give players enough time, we should learn from our mistakes
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On November 03 2010 07:50 koreasilver wrote:
So you listen to professional testimonies selectively. When Boxer says TvZ is hard you jump on it, but when Foxer says that it's hard for a Zerg to just tech to infesters you just ignore it and ramble on and on about it.
Hmm.
My god. So many posts full of fail. Is it me or you who listens/reads selectively? Foxer was talking within the context of that particular game he played, saying that because of pressure in that situation it would be better to continue massing banes instead of atttempting to get infestors, since there would be not much time to accumulate energy for infestors.
I personally disagree with even his own analysis of "bad to get infestors" in that specific game, but he's the one that played it, so he can probably accurately judge the situation better.
Foxer NEVER said it's hard for a Zerg to tech to infestors. If you are going to quote and make vague references, get your facts and analysis spot on before you try to support your invalid points with incorrect analysis.
I understand you simply read what foxer said in his interview, rather than also processing and understanding what he said.
also btw, tonight we find out if z can rape t
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On November 05 2010 14:04 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 07:50 koreasilver wrote:
So you listen to professional testimonies selectively. When Boxer says TvZ is hard you jump on it, but when Foxer says that it's hard for a Zerg to just tech to infesters you just ignore it and ramble on and on about it.
Hmm. My god. So many posts full of fail. Is it me or you who listens/reads selectively? Foxer was talking within the context of that particular game he played, saying that because of pressure in that situation it would be better to continue massing banes instead of atttempting to get infestors, since there would be not much time to accumulate energy for infestors. I personally disagree with even his own analysis of "bad to get infestors" in that specific game, but he's the one that played it, so he can probably accurately judge the situation better. Foxer NEVER said it's hard for a Zerg to tech to infestors. If you are going to quote and make vague references, get your facts and analysis spot on before you try to support your invalid points with incorrect analysis. I understand you simply read what foxer said in his interview, rather than also processing and understanding what he said.
Obviously I was meaning that it is hard to get infesters out for the Zerg when the Terran plays super aggressively like Foxer was doing. It stands that you completely ignored the post right before your little "lol game5 so bad zerg didn't get infesters" that said that Foxer said that it is difficult for a Zerg to get out infesters in that situation. You blabbered on until ret popped into the thread and reaffirmed it, to which you immediately put your tail between your legs in response. As it stands from when I last posted, it was obvious to any outsider that you were being a hypocrite in quoting Boxer as a "professional" for support in your argument and ignoring another professional when his testimony was directly oppositional to your "lol zerg noob didn't get infesters" diatribe. Although Foxer was not speaking about TvZ as a whole, you were still embracing one fully while sidestepping another with no real reason for one or the other - just an arbitrary choice.
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On November 05 2010 14:04 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2010 07:50 koreasilver wrote:
So you listen to professional testimonies selectively. When Boxer says TvZ is hard you jump on it, but when Foxer says that it's hard for a Zerg to just tech to infesters you just ignore it and ramble on and on about it.
Hmm. My god. So many posts full of fail. Is it me or you who listens/reads selectively? Foxer was talking within the context of that particular game he played, saying that because of pressure in that situation it would be better to continue massing banes instead of atttempting to get infestors, since there would be not much time to accumulate energy for infestors. I personally disagree with even his own analysis of "bad to get infestors" in that specific game, but he's the one that played it, so he can probably accurately judge the situation better. Foxer NEVER said it's hard for a Zerg to tech to infestors. If you are going to quote and make vague references, get your facts and analysis spot on before you try to support your invalid points with incorrect analysis. I understand you simply read what foxer said in his interview, rather than also processing and understanding what he said. also btw, tonight we find out if z can rape t
Ah yes if nestea wins zerg imba if Boxer wins the zerg just sucked. Great logic -_-.
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Avilo what is your opinion on how SlayerS_Boxer played today?
I know you both agree that TvZ is hard and now I can kind of see why.
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Foxer will avenge his hero, (I said that in stream right before tastosis did)
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On November 05 2010 20:07 SCC-Faust wrote:
Avilo what is your opinion on how SlayerS_Boxer played today?
I know you both agree that TvZ is hard and now I can kind of see why.
He played perfect, killing over nine thousand drones which were instantly reproduced at no cost of larva or resources to the zerg. His awkward elevator push into the back of zerg's main was flawlessly executed, moving the thors out of range of the tanks so that they both got wiped out with the greatest of ease. You might say to yourself "that's pretty dumb" but given that ZvT is a foregone conclusion and that roaches can just chill out 4 range away from things and shoot green shit like someone camping CT spawn with an AWP so you may as well just bend over and take it.
He is the Emperor of Terran. The sovereign ruler of an entire empire of terrans. If he can't win a ZvT, the game is broken, QED. Do you think it makes any logical sense for some pathetic nobody of a BW pro can wipe the floor with him and make his in game performance rival Tasteless' ability to cast/observe a game. A zerg, need I remind you, with drug references in his name. When was the last time you lost to some guy named Weedlord420 or something like that. Have we all forgot the sage anti drug slogan on arcade games circa mid 90s, "winners don't use drugs." Well someone remind Dustin Browder up in his comfy office in Blizz HQ because ZergBong just lit up Boxer and smoked his ass and probably won't even remember where he was the day after.
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Ah yes if nestea wins zerg imba if Boxer wins the zerg just sucked. Great logic -_-. Not surprising. It pretty much sums up his attitude for the last several months. When zergs lose they need to get better, but when terrans lose it's because of imba.
This entire blog is just OP trying to convince himself that it's not his own fault that he loses.
Still can't seem to take his own advice:On September 09 2010 09:47 avilo wrote:
solution: play the game it is and get better at it.
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On November 05 2010 23:45 Tsagacity wrote:Show nested quote +Ah yes if nestea wins zerg imba if Boxer wins the zerg just sucked. Great logic -_-. Not surprising. It pretty much sums up his attitude for the last several months. When zergs lose they need to get better, but when terrans lose it's because of imba. This entire blog is just OP trying to convince himself that it's not his own fault that he loses. Still can't seem to take his own advice: Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 09:47 avilo wrote:
solution: play the game it is and get better at it.
Yeah sadly he's always been like that lol I dont' know why I try to make him see how wrong he is but just wont' get through to him :/.
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sup boxer vs zergbong gonna be a close match cause match-up is balanced!
oh wait.
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On November 06 2010 06:13 avilo wrote:
sup boxer vs zergbong gonna be a close match cause match-up is balanced!
oh wait.
ZergBong's still going to get drunked by the Foxer! Marines move out!
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so in reference to the title, is zerg still gonna win? haha.
foxer is a beast, gonna eat through nestea. don't want to admit it, but watching the VODs.. ;~;
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On November 05 2010 17:23 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 14:04 avilo wrote:On November 03 2010 07:50 koreasilver wrote:
So you listen to professional testimonies selectively. When Boxer says TvZ is hard you jump on it, but when Foxer says that it's hard for a Zerg to just tech to infesters you just ignore it and ramble on and on about it.
Hmm. My god. So many posts full of fail. Is it me or you who listens/reads selectively? Foxer was talking within the context of that particular game he played, saying that because of pressure in that situation it would be better to continue massing banes instead of atttempting to get infestors, since there would be not much time to accumulate energy for infestors. I personally disagree with even his own analysis of "bad to get infestors" in that specific game, but he's the one that played it, so he can probably accurately judge the situation better. Foxer NEVER said it's hard for a Zerg to tech to infestors. If you are going to quote and make vague references, get your facts and analysis spot on before you try to support your invalid points with incorrect analysis. I understand you simply read what foxer said in his interview, rather than also processing and understanding what he said. also btw, tonight we find out if z can rape t Ah yes if nestea wins zerg imba if Boxer wins the zerg just sucked. Great logic -_-.
Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said the Zerg sucked. The truth of the matter is, if you want to do analysis on foxer vs kyrix, kyrix made a ton of horrible decisions after his aggro, especially in game 5.
That's not bias. That's looking at the games and analyzing them.
On November 05 2010 20:07 SCC-Faust wrote:
Avilo what is your opinion on how SlayerS_Boxer played today?
I know you both agree that TvZ is hard and now I can kind of see why.
Ret mentioned earlier in the thread to "learn to 2 rax." I didn't feel like humoring him and responding because as seen in the boxer vs zergbong series, 2 rax sux even versus hatch first. I believe boxer even proxied his raxes? Still stopped easily.
Even noobs on ladder can stop a 2 rax marine pressure. Ok, well, that's not true, a lot of noobies on ladder die to it. But noobies die to anything, that doesn't mean it's good.
I already predicted boxer would lose, i liquibet for zergbong lmao even tho I love boxer
as for the series, it was nothing special. It's how you're supposed to play zerg right now.
You can do the kyrix mass ling/baneling aggro which Terran has incredible trouble defending. You gain an advantage with it -> macro -> automatic late game win once the game goes past 10 minutes.
Or you can just play the invincible defensive macro style, where you get mass baneling/infestor/ling/muta, harrass with muta some, and just defend every drop T throws at you with infestors/mobile ling/speed baneling into ultra...
The only way T can win is by doing something gimmicky b4 the 10 min mark, or through a build order win like boxer tried with the 2 raxes. Needless to say, good Zergs easily stop it and roll. That's why I made this thread. I have no doubt Zergbong is gonna roll foxer in the finals.
For everyone jumping on Foxer's amazing marine micro, Zergbong isn't going to let those shinanigans happen because he's smart enough to get infestors and...let's see how fun it is to micro marines when they're fungalled lol.
foxer had massive trouble with kyrix's style, Zergbong can and knows how to abuse the same thing, and then drone up and get a freewin late game. So yeah...that's what I think about boxer's series. Zergbong played how the Zergs that know how the true balance is right now are supposed to...
He even threw away so many banes/lings and was still ahead afterwards lol.
On November 05 2010 22:28 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 20:07 SCC-Faust wrote:
Avilo what is your opinion on how SlayerS_Boxer played today?
I know you both agree that TvZ is hard and now I can kind of see why. He played perfect, killing over nine thousand drones which were instantly reproduced at no cost of larva or resources to the zerg. His awkward elevator push into the back of zerg's main was flawlessly executed, moving the thors out of range of the tanks so that they both got wiped out with the greatest of ease. You might say to yourself "that's pretty dumb" but given that ZvT is a foregone conclusion and that roaches can just chill out 4 range away from things and shoot green shit like someone camping CT spawn with an AWP so you may as well just bend over and take it. He is the Emperor of Terran. The sovereign ruler of an entire empire of terrans. If he can't win a ZvT, the game is broken, QED. Do you think it makes any logical sense for some pathetic nobody of a BW pro can wipe the floor with him and make his in game performance rival Tasteless' ability to cast/observe a game. A zerg, need I remind you, with drug references in his name. When was the last time you lost to some guy named Weedlord420 or something like that. Have we all forgot the sage anti drug slogan on arcade games circa mid 90s, "winners don't use drugs." Well someone remind Dustin Browder up in his comfy office in Blizz HQ because ZergBong just lit up Boxer and smoked his ass and probably won't even remember where he was the day after.
I'm not quite sure if you're serious or semi-serious but what you said about Zerg re-droning is absolutely true this patch. It's the invincible defensive Zerg style that I refer to in a lot of my posts. You can harrass Zerg a hell of a lot, but the good Zergs build the minimum it takes to kill off your "harrassment" and then they immediately have the same number or more drones after the harrass that they did before the harrassment - while the Terran lost all their units.
So yeah...people that say you can harrass Zergs well haven't played the Zergs on ladder and the tip top Zergs that already learned defensive Zerg autowins past 10 min in.
It's pretty god damn ridiculous. As Terran, you cannot play a macro game because Terran loses a macro game TvZ.
You can't do a harrass game, because harrass doesn't work due to how larva inject allows re-droning and you lose all ur units while they have the same amount of drones afterwards.
Do the math. You lost units, they have the same amount of drones that they did b4 your harrass even started, and they have their army still...
So the only way is to play 2 base gimmicky all-in strats, or try to "surprise" them and get a win.
That's not to say that two patches ago was balanced. It definitely was incredibly Terran favored because of the sheer amount of things that could kill Zerg. But the patch b4 this one Zerg were already finding their stride in raping Terrans by making it to late game for freewin, it's just this patch went overboard and now it's almost a forgone conclusion that Zerg gets their natural for free with absolutely no threat of pressure.
anyways...Zerg still going to win GSL
On November 05 2010 23:45 Tsagacity wrote:Show nested quote +Ah yes if nestea wins zerg imba if Boxer wins the zerg just sucked. Great logic -_-. Not surprising. It pretty much sums up his attitude for the last several months. When zergs lose they need to get better, but when terrans lose it's because of imba. This entire blog is just OP trying to convince himself that it's not his own fault that he loses. Still can't seem to take his own advice: Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 09:47 avilo wrote:
solution: play the game it is and get better at it.
My attitude has always been to not complain and whine about balance, but when the game is so obviously skewered one way patch after patch, it can get to even me.
It was skewered in Terran's favor b4 to the point that every Zerg BM'd you every game you played.
Now the balance is so skewered in Zerg's favor it's not funny. Well, I do find it sorta hilarious that in medivac alamo division on NA server if you look at all of the top slots it's
P
Z
Z
T
P
T
Z
Z
Z
Z
P
P
P
P
lol. That's basically what it looks like. Did all of the Terrans suddenly have their keyboards unplugged or forget how to play? No...it's the opposite balance situation from how Zerg was.
Terran just basically replaced Zerg as the underpowered race. That's not saying you cannot win as T, you definitely can. But the design of late game is so screwed right now by blizzard. You shouldn't have to "play against the clock" and what I mean by that is that if the game goes past 10 minutes vs zerg you lose to larva inject and them defending, and it's just about the same versus turtle protosses that accumulate 5 collosus + any army, and defend into templar+collosus which rapes any sized T army late game. Unless you hit miracle EMPs.
On November 06 2010 06:17 Raeleigh wrote:
so in reference to the title, is zerg still gonna win? haha.
foxer is a beaster, gonna eat through nestea. don't want to admit it, but watching the VODs.. ;~;
Yep, Zergbong is going to win the entire thing. The series last night should have enlightened some people that don't understand the current state of the metagame so much.
kyrix had tunnel vision against foxer, which is the only reason he lost. Zergbong obviously doesn't suffer from the same problem. So yeah. The finals is going to be a blow out, probably 4-0 or 4-1.
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On November 06 2010 06:33 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 06:17 Raeleigh wrote:
so in reference to the title, is zerg still gonna win? haha.
foxer is a beaster, gonna eat through nestea. don't want to admit it, but watching the VODs.. ;~; Yep, Zergbong is going to win the entire thing. The series last night should have enlightened some people that don't understand the current state of the metagame so much. kyrix had tunnel vision against foxer, which is the only reason he lost. Zergbong obviously doesn't suffer from the same problem. So yeah. The finals is going to be a blow out, probably 4-0 or 4-1.
Oh snap.
Someone told me Foxer beat Fruit Dealer because Foxer watched every single one of Fruit Dealer's replays, found every flaw or something he forgot, and then countered it.
Do you think if Foxer did that with NesTea he could win? o-o;
NesTea is really good, so is Foxer..
Epic match :U!!!
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I actually think Nestea will win.
But definitely not for the same reasons as you.
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Avilo why 3 T in the Ro4 ?
On November 06 2010 06:40 SCC-Faust wrote:
I actually think Nestea will win.
But definitely not for the same reasons as you.
Same.
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can I ask you guys if he NesTear ROFLSTOMPED everyone? I mean there's no crazy match in which he almost lost?
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On November 06 2010 06:45 Boblion wrote:Avilo why 3 T in the Ro4 ? Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 06:40 SCC-Faust wrote:
I actually think Nestea will win.
But definitely not for the same reasons as you.
Same.
T has the most representation at the tournament
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NestTea hasn't lost a single game. If he wins it's because he's the best in the world right now. And besides he needs to win so we can start calling him the boxer slayer.
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On November 06 2010 06:52 Licmyobelisk wrote:
can I ask you guys if he NesTear ROFLSTOMPED everyone? I mean there's no crazy match in which he almost lost?
Didn't he only play ZvZs except for a no-name and Boxer?
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On November 06 2010 07:25 Redmark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 06:52 Licmyobelisk wrote:
can I ask you guys if he NesTear ROFLSTOMPED everyone? I mean there's no crazy match in which he almost lost? Didn't he only play ZvZs except for a no-name and Boxer?
That is precisely why he is so good. ZvZ is a very volatile match-up and by going undefeated he's definitely very good.
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On November 05 2010 23:45 Tsagacity wrote:Show nested quote +Ah yes if nestea wins zerg imba if Boxer wins the zerg just sucked. Great logic -_-. Not surprising. It pretty much sums up his attitude for the last several months. When zergs lose they need to get better, but when terrans lose it's because of imba. This entire blog is just OP trying to convince himself that it's not his own fault that he loses. Still can't seem to take his own advice: Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 09:47 avilo wrote:
solution: play the game it is and get better at it. words of a hypocrite bare no meaning, we should just ignore him now lol
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On November 06 2010 10:26 We Are Here wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2010 23:45 Tsagacity wrote:Ah yes if nestea wins zerg imba if Boxer wins the zerg just sucked. Great logic -_-. Not surprising. It pretty much sums up his attitude for the last several months. When zergs lose they need to get better, but when terrans lose it's because of imba. This entire blog is just OP trying to convince himself that it's not his own fault that he loses. Still can't seem to take his own advice: On September 09 2010 09:47 avilo wrote:
solution: play the game it is and get better at it. words of a hypocrite bare no meaning, we should just ignore him now lol
Yup he doesn't know how to play tvz and hence blames balance. I wonder if he had played broodwar (or maybe he did) if he did the same thing and blamed balance for his losses. Wouldn't surprise me anyway ^^
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On November 06 2010 13:27 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2010 10:26 We Are Here wrote:On November 05 2010 23:45 Tsagacity wrote:Ah yes if nestea wins zerg imba if Boxer wins the zerg just sucked. Great logic -_-. Not surprising. It pretty much sums up his attitude for the last several months. When zergs lose they need to get better, but when terrans lose it's because of imba. This entire blog is just OP trying to convince himself that it's not his own fault that he loses. Still can't seem to take his own advice: On September 09 2010 09:47 avilo wrote:
solution: play the game it is and get better at it. words of a hypocrite bare no meaning, we should just ignore him now lol Yup he doesn't know how to play tvz and hence blames balance. I wonder if he had played broodwar (or maybe he did) if he did the same thing and blamed balance for his losses. Wouldn't surprise me anyway ^^
I love how you completely ignored all the logical arguments and instead decided to attack me personally. I'll take it as an admittance you have no argument to make. Bye.
As for Brood War balance, Brood War is such an awesome game that it ended up being virtually perfectly balanced. There was always something you could do better, or someone better, and I do not think myself or any other self respecting player ever even had Brood War balance enter our minds when we were playing Brood War. It was that good.
SC2 is no where near balanced though. We definitely should have a good mind set of being able to get better and beat everything. But to be honest, SC2 does require less skill than Brood War, as much as I love SC2. And balance problems are much, much easier to pin point and make comment on.
Hopefully balance will get there though.
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My attitude has always been to not complain and whine about balance. A quick stroll through your post history shows that this obviously isn't true. Do you really believe yourself when you say this? -_-
Jesus Christ, there's even someone in this thread who recognizes you as a constant whiner from C&C. You know you have a reputation for whining when people recognize you for it across games o.O
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United States7481 Posts
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On October 26 2010 04:38 avilo wrote:
This is going to be the easiest prediction ever, as well as slight rant.
ZvT though...lol blizzard. Every ZvT the Zerg gets their expo for free, with not even the THREAT of losing it. That threat was so very important in the patch b4 this (where Zergs were already beginning to rape Terrans - but they pretended otherwise).
Or it could be any other two Zergs in the finals. Assuming somehow it is not a ZvZ final and some protoss or terran gimmicks their way to the finals, if the final is ZvT, Zerg absolutely is the winner of GSL2.
If it's a PvZ in the finals, it is a toss-up. And at this point in time, predicting a TvP finals is laughable.
The others simply stand no chance.
On November 14 2010 03:21 avilo wrote:
SUP LOOL
congrats, you have been right this whole time
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Avilo won twice tonight. One victory in Cyberground Tourney and another with prediction. Hope he doesn't get a big head.
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On November 14 2010 03:21 avilo wrote:
SUP LOOL yup it was so "ez"
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avilo, do you think about the prediction that 14 hatch is pretty ez for zerg is right? I mean you're pretty correct that a zerg won this tourney but the prediction seems to be only 75 percent correct. your thoughts?
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the zerg won because he's a better player and that's all there is to it. you guys need to stop arguing terran vs zerg completely forgetting about the players themselves.
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On November 14 2010 20:39 Licmyobelisk wrote:
avilo, do you think about the prediction that 14 hatch is pretty ez for zerg is right? I mean you're pretty correct that a zerg won this tourney but the prediction seems to be only 75 percent correct. your thoughts?
It still is easy...
On November 14 2010 21:17 Keldrath wrote:
the zerg won because he's a better player and that's all there is to it. you guys need to stop arguing terran vs zerg completely forgetting about the players themselves.
You bring up a good point. Except...that's not all there is to it. There is a gigantic design/balance problem for late game tvz right now. It's also why, as predicted, foxer played the way he did in the finals.
I agree with you though, that Zergbong is a better player
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On November 14 2010 03:21 avilo wrote:
SUP LOOL
I TOLD YOU SO LUL.
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This tread is a big fail. 15 hatch is still a big risk, but at least zerg has a fair chance at doing it. The game has never been anywhere close to as balanced as it is right now.
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EPT
