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also including how they do balancing,
1 Spreadsheet Calculations
2 Unit Testing Maps-Very Similar to the ones we use except most of the time no terrain
3 Community Feedback
Now some of the things that were noted
Marauder stim actually tend to be harmful than helpful as it reduces marauder lifespan
Terran has upper hand in the first 12 minutes
Protoss dramatically comes back after 12 minutes due to Colossi and Templar Storms
Marine stim is quite overpowered rather, But being such a staple unit it's difficult to balance compared to other units.
Void Ray changes were quickly decided due to an alignment of data of all 3 sources suggesting for balancing changes.
However in terms of Terran bio Spreadsheets, Unit Tests and Community Feedbacks don't seem to line up thus the delay for balancing changes.
So I think that's how Blizzard does their balancing.
so I guess it looks like this
<=Early Game[ Terran OP----------][Balanced]
-------------------------------------------------[Protoss OP---------------] ==> Meta Game
Info taken from both SCLegacy.com and the Blizzcon 2010 stream
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unhh i thinkt hey got the part wrong where terran has upper hand in first twelve minutes sorry to say, but toss can fe super safely and terran cannot without getting worried. so check again blizzard!
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I haven't played much lately but is there actually a way for p to fe. The ones I seen before were horribly bad. I question this a lot.
One of my big problems in pvt was that t could expo easier then me.
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lol
P can FE fine and T definitely has a massive edge earlygame. Don't know what the above posters are on about.
I'm interested for more information behind the marauder stim note, stimkiting with conc shell early on is part of the power of T because P's slower and more fragile units can be picked apart. I do agree on the marine stim note, however - P doesn't really develop counters to marine balls until T3.
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On October 25 2010 12:31 wishbones wrote:
unhh i thinkt hey got the part wrong where terran has upper hand in first twelve minutes sorry to say, but toss can fe super safely and terran cannot without getting worried. so check again blizzard!
Are you kidding? The protoss idea of FE is probably 2gate robo. Terran idea of FE is 1rax techlab. plus my first 3 units (marine + 2 maurauder) still have time to walk to the protoss ramp and force a forcefield or kill at least a stalker + whatever and still walk away fairly intact
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Clearly the subject is WAY to debatable to have a decisive answer on the balance.
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On October 25 2010 12:31 wishbones wrote:
unhh i thinkt hey got the part wrong where terran has upper hand in first twelve minutes sorry to say, but toss can fe super safely and terran cannot without getting worried. so check again blizzard!
Is it possible that blizzard is correct and you are wrong? Please ask yourself this and perhaps rewrite your post.
Thanks for the writeout op.
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Why is concussive shells in this game?
Pretty sure if you want balance then an ability like that shouldn't exist.
User was warned for this post
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On October 25 2010 12:43 TheFinalWord wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 12:31 wishbones wrote:
unhh i thinkt hey got the part wrong where terran has upper hand in first twelve minutes sorry to say, but toss can fe super safely and terran cannot without getting worried. so check again blizzard! Is it possible that blizzard is correct and you are wrong? Please ask yourself this and perhaps rewrite your post. Thanks for the writeout op.
I laughed hard at this. Agree totally (as a Zerg player)
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On October 25 2010 12:42 MassAirUnits wrote:Sorry to poop on you but a thread on this topic started already, it's just on page 2 =[ http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163309Although, that topic didn't mention the Marauder portion of the panel, while yours does (also wish there was more information!).
Gag I should've checked it a bit. I figured nobody covered this yet. Further expanding on marauders it seems that they may perform better without stimming as it
may increase their survivability. Would anyone care to look into it?
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Marauder stim harms marauders? Did they offer an explanation?
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On October 25 2010 12:58 Chairman Ray wrote:
Marauder stim harms marauders? Did they offer an explanation?
It seems to dramatically decrease their lifespan in many situations that they would've done better without all taking 25 dmg right off the bat. While stim may be dps increase but the longer they live the more damage done seems to be their train of thought
On October 25 2010 12:50 Mania[K]al wrote:
Why is concussive shells in this game?
Pretty sure if you want balance then an ability like that shouldn't exist.
Sorry but I don't recall this being mentioned in the panel thus I am unable to answer this
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On October 25 2010 12:58 Chairman Ray wrote:
Marauder stim harms marauders? Did they offer an explanation?
Maybe they forgot to attack after stimming them.
In all seriousness, this is a bad way to balance the game. Sure, the win ratio is probably around 50/50 right now, but to have a game based where the first portion of the game favors one team while the later portion favors the other is very discouraging in terms of balance.
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On October 25 2010 12:54 Blasterion wrote:Gag I should've checked it a bit. I figured nobody covered this yet. Further expanding on marauders it seems that they may perform better without stimming as it may increase their survivability. Would anyone care to look into it?
That was the part of the panel where they were talking about their make combat tool, which allows them to spawn specific sets of units and basically have them attack move into one another. In that situation they said that there were situations where the hp loss from using stim made it detrimental (a loss for the marauder force) compared to simply attacking without stim.
Before people blow up about how useless that comparison being (simple a-moves), they very specifically addressed the faults of their various tools (i.e. for make combat, it doesn't take into account pathing or terrain, micro, or how the player got those units). In another example they showed how stalker/zealot was losing to hydralisk/roach in straight make combat scenarios, but replacing the stalkers with immortals for immortal zealot made them win. That said, they recognized that immortal zealot was still not a viable counter because a) it's so susceptible to air that mutalisk would wreck it, and b) how many robotics facilities did this fictional protoss have to produce that many immortals.
So basically, they're saying they don't think marauder stim for damage is really overpowered because of the hp loss, but they did mention that they get a lot out of it for movement (which isn't really addressed by make combat).
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I've been saying this FOREVER.
Terran OP early game, Mid game Balanced, Toss OP late game.
(1750 toss here)
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On October 25 2010 13:03 cHaNg-sTa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2010 12:58 Chairman Ray wrote:
Marauder stim harms marauders? Did they offer an explanation? Maybe they forgot to attack after stimming them. In all seriousness, this is a bad way to balance the game. Sure, the win ratio is probably around 50/50 right now, but to have a game based where the first portion of the game favors one team while the later portion favors the other is very discouraging in terms of balance.
The Blizzard dudes made the point that it's possible to get a 50/50 win for each race with the balance they have now in PvT, but that's not good enough for them, and PvT is what they're focusing on ATM.
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rine stimm should bring only 50% more firerate, not 100%. Marauder stim should be deleted. Than it will be balanced.
User was warned for this post
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United States691 Posts
While the OP is a nice write up I don't think it does justice to what the blizzcon panel went over completely.
In regards to PvT the panel said that while the Terran early game was very powerful, after 12 minutes (don't really know how they got that time, could be arbitrary for their own example) the Protoss became very strong and the Terran would usually lose. (See Kiwikaki vs Select at MLG) But if the Terran attacked early with bio usually the Terran would win. (See Select vs Huk, Select vs Nony, etc at MLG)
They went on to say while this could cause a 50/50 split that is not how they want to balance the game. They want it balanced from the second the game begins until the second the game ends. They looked at Marauders but saw through pro and community feedback, spreadsheets, and their own testing that Marauders we're okay and no changes needed. Stim hurts them in the long run as it makes them weaker. I'm inclined to think that Marauders seem overpowered due to Protoss being weak overall early game and Terran bio is a staple for their early game. They mentioned High Templar being a bit too strong with storm and were going to possibly tweak it a bit but I doubt it would make them useless if they did.
Void Rays were nerfed due to all of their sources for their balance reports pointing to a problem with them. If all of their sources didn't agree they weren't going to arbitrarily nerf something. for example if the general community is clamoring for Marauders to be nerfed, but their tests and pro feedback showed the opposite, they were going to keep testing until a possible problem is found, while allowing time to pass. Time is a huge factor as new strategies develop over time and new ways to handle things are discovered. Blizzard does not want to interfere with that and will do small tweaks when they feel it is necessary to.
As far as win percentages went, I think they mentioned that PvT was Protoss favored across the board withing acceptable ranges EXCEPT for Diamond Korea, where Terran was favored. It's aberrations like that that set of red flags and make them watch for things and take closer looks at balance.
I think they're going about this very well with all the ways they look at balance. Give Blizzard more credit IMO, they know what they're doing.
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EPT
