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I really like that blizzard seems to be on the right track here. The matchup feels really balanced for a fleeting moment when colossus and templar hit the field but before khaydarin. Here's some changes I'd really like to see:
- Ghost academy requires factory
- Stim re-increased to 150/150 (not sure on this one)
- Concussive shells research time increased by 10 seconds
- Khaydarin amulet removed
Colossus are manageable due to their immobility and inability to be insta-warped anywhere, even if they dominate at critical mass. You can at least try to play the 'exploit my opponent's mobility' game. If you try that against templar, you fly past an observer and your medivacs get insta-killed by feedback and a couple stalkers and all your units die. The only thing that feels really terrible about this matchup is that templars with khaydarin can hard-counter every single terran army in the game between feedback and storm except thor-heavy armies, which are already very bad against chargelots, and are natural in every templar composition.
These changes would really even out TvP early game, and possibly fix TvP late game. The only issue I see is that the stim change may further hurt TvZ balance.
Khaydarin amulet shouldn't even exist, to be honest. You shouldn't be able to warp in units anywhere to instantly shut down harassment, feedback medivac drops, kill entire bio balls from high ground you warped onto, etc. You shouldn't be able to warp in 300 gas of units and nearly instantly kill an entire mineral line.
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I don't think ghosts are a problem by themselves, but it's EMP plus STIM and concussive shells bio that is the problem. If you could just run away, then it wouldn't be a problem as your shields could come back up as many terran do when they see storm. But with stim and concussive shells and EMP, suddenly you take out half their health slow them down and dps them for 50% bonus dmg. Add like 3 vikings and collosus in any number are basically useless.
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Without Kaydarin Amulet, a Protoss player would be unable to reinforce an army with Templar. If anything, the Amulet upgrade should be built into the psionic storm upgrade.
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i don't know about the lategame conclusion. it seems to me Ts are very one-dimensional in how they play. mostly bio bio bio w/ air support. granted my opinion is based off of what i see in tournaments.
i will be very sad if they nerf HTs.
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On November 02 2010 16:20 iEchoic wrote:
Khaydarin amulet shouldn't even exist, to be honest. You shouldn't be able to warp in units anywhere to instantly shut down harassment, feedback medivac drops, kill entire bio balls from high ground you warped onto, etc.
So any time the terran manages to EMP your templar (or most of them) you type out 'gg' instantly or hope he just doesn't feel like attacking for 40 seconds?
Also high templar are the only cost-effective way to shut down harassment. You cannot deal with a medivac drop without superior gateway unit count nearby or having enough gateways (and resources) to warp in a huge force at any given moment in time, which is a big problem if you ever want to leave your base with an actual army.
The real solution will come by Terrans in general becoming better at ghost usage and actually bothering to micro and split their main armies instead of 1a -> attempt to tank the storm because why not.
Theres no reason you should have 2-3 storms hit your entire clumped up army instead of 5-6+ at which point the HTs are much less cost-effective or even cost in-effective.
And really when it comes down to it why shouldn't HT counter MMM?
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On November 02 2010 16:54 Elwar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 16:20 iEchoic wrote:
Khaydarin amulet shouldn't even exist, to be honest. You shouldn't be able to warp in units anywhere to instantly shut down harassment, feedback medivac drops, kill entire bio balls from high ground you warped onto, etc. And really when it comes down to it why shouldn't HT counter MMM?
Because Blizz nerfed BCs and Tanks to death so that's kind of the only option left.
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I don't have an opinion on whether Khaydarin should be removed or not, but some of the reasons that have been given in this thread for keeping it in the game are not valid.
On November 02 2010 16:54 Elwar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 16:20 iEchoic wrote:
Khaydarin amulet shouldn't even exist, to be honest. You shouldn't be able to warp in units anywhere to instantly shut down harassment, feedback medivac drops, kill entire bio balls from high ground you warped onto, etc. So any time the terran manages to EMP your templar (or most of them) you type out 'gg' instantly or hope he just doesn't feel like attacking for 40 seconds?
Yes. I don't see that as a problem. Similarly, it's game over for Terran mech if you get caught with your Tanks unsieged or game over for Terran bio if you miss-micro against Banelings or Templar. For Zerg it's game over if you don't magic box your Mutas against Thor. Certain playstyles require you to flawlessly execute certain micro aspects of the game.
Also high templar are the only cost-effective way to shut down harassment. You cannot deal with a medivac drop without superior gateway unit count nearby or having enough gateways (and resources) to warp in a huge force at any given moment in time, which is a big problem if you ever want to leave your base with an actual army.
And other races don't have the same problem? Even without Khaydarin, Protoss can still have the fastest response to drops because of warp in. The fact that dealing with harassment would be harder without Khaydarin is not really a valid reason since all races have to face large difficulties when dealing with drops.
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On November 02 2010 16:20 iEchoic wrote:
I really like that blizzard seems to be on the right track here. The matchup feels really balanced for a fleeting moment when colossus and templar hit the field but before khaydarin. Here's some changes I'd really like to see:
- Ghost academy requires factory
- Stim re-increased to 150/150 (not sure on this one)
- Concussive shells research time increased by 10 seconds
- Khaydarin amulet removed
Colossus are manageable due to their immobility and inability to be insta-warped anywhere, even if they dominate at critical mass. You can at least try to play the 'exploit my opponent's mobility' game. If you try that against templar, you fly past an observer and your medivacs get insta-killed by feedback and a couple stalkers and all your units die. The only thing that feels really terrible about this matchup is that templars with khaydarin can hard-counter every single terran army in the game between feedback and storm except thor-heavy armies, which are already very bad against chargelots, and are natural in every templar composition.
These changes would really even out TvP early game, and possibly fix TvP late game. The only issue I see is that the stim change may further hurt TvZ balance.
Khaydarin amulet shouldn't even exist, to be honest. You shouldn't be able to warp in units anywhere to instantly shut down harassment, feedback medivac drops, kill entire bio balls from high ground you warped onto, etc.
Why take away Protoss' only viable tier 3 tech dealing with a huge mass of t1? You remove that, you break pvz out-right when the tech swap late game comes from roach hydra to ling ultra. We sink our 150 gas into a unit and have to wait another 30 seconds just to be able to use it? no thanks.
Khaydarin amulet with the added amount of storms just forces the terran to micro a hell of a lot more than needed, but still with stims movement speed you can escape it before taking full damage, and at best you'll take half the damage.
Dropping cannons or leaving a few stalkers isn't going to do us any good either burning that much minerals and wasted resources for "What if.." and even then, we would need more than just a few units to stop 4 marauder or the 8 marine drop. Sure if you fly in the wrong direction and stalkers start shooting the medivac before the unload we can hold it off, but 1 scan and you're dodging it completely. Not to mention all the air space behind the mains on most maps.
Carriers are awful as in they take just as long as a dt shrine comes out and still have to wait for the extra interceptors to be made, we've already seen countless mothershit moments to further prove why nobody makes them except as a joke.
Terran can use their early game aggression to secure a big enough econ lead to be able to constantly deal with the storms damage and harass. Not to mention, one drop including a tech snipe or a nexus snipe can win you the game immediately from that point. P is put into a deeper hole to climb out of for the next 10 minutes playing defensive trying to regain the lost mining from the lost nexus.
The bioball is by far the most efficient army even with stims hit to hp of the units.
I'm ignoring ghosts because that just comes down to who can out-play who, sure there's a timing window using ghosts, but once templar hit the field, it becomes who gets the first spell off. It's like watching two boxers punching each other completely exhausted without any defence and neither will collapse till their body gives up and the winner is decided.
I think the whole problem people have with the bioball lies within the micro and the smart fire from the engine without overkilling, and the slow is just an added bonus for an all ranged army. Soon as T stims and starts microing around the P / Z's army with the added movement speed with the small time frame, the engine can basically let T orb walk with their shots long enough and have them all auto-target the nearest units and take them out completely and hit them all effectively with slow (considering there's a decent 2:1 marine:marauder mix ) thus making it seem extremely difficult to deal with considering the melee units are borderline dead once they are able to strike the terran if he stops briefly during this time frame. I'm not saying to remove this aspect, I'm just pointing it out of how drastically it can change the tide of battle with the right control.
I think if they nerf the bioball ever so slightly in regards of balancing out tvp and not drastically hurting tvz too much we would start to see a lot more mech play in tvp. I would go as far as to say buff to either the stalker or sentry again and it would help it out a bit while ignoring the bioball.
I think somewhere along the lines in beta when they were nerf / buffing they tweaked the early game a bit too much because in this game, if you change one unit ( roach / reaper lastest patch ) you effect every match up and not just the intention of a specific match up of blizzards desired results.
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On November 02 2010 17:28 Corwin wrote:
I don't have an opinion on whether Khaydarin should be removed or not, but some of the reasons that have been given in this thread for keeping it in the game are not valid.
They are very valid, your reasons to dismiss them not so much.
Yes. I don't see that as a problem. Similarly, it's game over for Terran mech if you get caught with your Tanks unsieged or game over for Terran bio if you miss-micro against Banelings or Templar. For Zerg it's game over if you don't magic box your Mutas against Thor. Certain playstyles require you to flawlessly execute certain micro aspects of the game.
None of those are remotely comparable. For one, none of those are anywhere near as fatal. Waiting 40 seconds to the sole counter to the present threat is as game ending as it gets.
Moreover, this is not about mis-miscroing your own units in a battle, its about your opponent ending your game in two seconds with a faster unit that has an AoE spell that outranges its counter (feedback), can cloak, with a race that can scan ahead for both observers and the HTs. A terran player can also retreat if they miss key EMPs, a protoss player cannot if they have been EMP'd. They are done.
Lastly, its about balance of skill. You not seeing a problem in that the most popular, cost-effective TvP build that works from the start of the game onwards, that already has a solution to the only protoss late-game counter in the much easier to execute EMP, should also have that counter be game-ending?
You think its acceptable that protoss players only solution to late game PvT is to hope they
a) have prepared enough templar with their army because theres its almost impossible to disengage without doing significant damage since you can't reinforce with more templar
b) don't get EMP'd,
c) terran doesn't micro away effectively, and
d) can win the game right then or somehow wait out 40 seconds for more storms to be available?
Really?
And other races don't have the same problem? Even without Khaydarin, Protoss can still have the fastest response to drops because of warp in. The fact that dealing with harassment would be harder without Khaydarin is not really a valid reason since all races have to face large difficulties when dealing with drops.
No, they do not. All the races have to deal with drops, but they do not have equal responses thus not the same problem.
Zerg has infestors, mutalisks and the fastest ground units in the game. Probably the easiest race to deal with mid-late game drops.
Terran have stim, have planetary fortresses for expansions, have seige tanks, and can quickly return with their own medivacs. And of course it doesn't take a superior terran army to stop a drop.
Protoss is by far the most susceptible race to drops. High Templars are a key factor in handling late-game harassment. If you remove that you are down to warpgates and locking a protoss player in his base against harassment.
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On November 02 2010 16:20 iEchoic wrote:
I really like that blizzard seems to be on the right track here. The matchup feels really balanced for a fleeting moment when colossus and templar hit the field but before khaydarin. Here's some changes I'd really like to see:
- Ghost academy requires factory
- Stim re-increased to 150/150 (not sure on this one)
- Concussive shells research time increased by 10 seconds
- Khaydarin amulet removed
Colossus are manageable due to their immobility and inability to be insta-warped anywhere, even if they dominate at critical mass. You can at least try to play the 'exploit my opponent's mobility' game. If you try that against templar, you fly past an observer and your medivacs get insta-killed by feedback and a couple stalkers and all your units die. The only thing that feels really terrible about this matchup is that templars with khaydarin can hard-counter every single terran army in the game between feedback and storm except thor-heavy armies, which are already very bad against chargelots, and are natural in every templar composition.
These changes would really even out TvP early game, and possibly fix TvP late game. The only issue I see is that the stim change may further hurt TvZ balance.
Khaydarin amulet shouldn't even exist, to be honest. You shouldn't be able to warp in units anywhere to instantly shut down harassment, feedback medivac drops, kill entire bio balls from high ground you warped onto, etc. You shouldn't be able to warp in 300 gas of units and nearly instantly kill an entire mineral line.
Feedback costs 50 energy, you can feedback right away, even before the amulet, when your unit spawn
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On October 25 2010 14:17 SaDGoWu wrote:
I don't get anyone that think's Blizzard knows what they're doing,
Then you need to think harder before you post. Blizzard has way more insight than what you can come up with. Everything you pointed out in your post, they have already considered. I don't get how you can think Blizzard doesn't know what they are doing. You should leave balancing issues to professionals. Those who make a living doing it. To claim that you can better balance the game than blizzard is like claiming you can beat a professional starcraft player. Not impossible, but highly improbable.
In addition, Blizzard has already done a fantastic job balancing compared to other games.
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EPT
