On October 27 2010 23:54 KaiserJohan wrote: It's like T players telling Z players to "use ur tech, nydus moar" when Z get crushed by a T ball. P telling T to use their tech; have you ever played or seen a TvP? Compare the impact 6 colossus have to 6 thors.
Show replays where T uses a high-tech army like alot of BC/Thors/banshee/Ghost/tanks and actually outright wins in a 200/200 battle, I'd be suprised if P ever went below 100 supply.
T is OP first 12 mins, midgame balanced, then P is OP. That really feels like an accurate description; question would be how to P's early and T's late without affecting the Z matchups. (although some early buff to P would certainly help against the roach buff)
(imho 250mm cannons into 9 range is one good option....)
I've been saying this over and over since beta. T was OP early game and UP late game. The fact the maps are so small and that T had a good early game (esp compared to Z) was masking the fact that T late game is terrible. I'm glad it's being recognized that TvP is NOT balanced and never has been. Hopefully ZvT starts to get the same recognition now that T early game is crippled.
First, read my post and other people's posts up there.
T > Z still in early game. The supply before rax change only made sure T can't be aggressive in the very beginning; they can still be aggressive before Z reaches lair tech and that requirement is nullified if T also chooses a more macro-orientated game, like expo earlier.
Z was never > T late game. Yes Ultras + Broods are devastating but it still dies to Terran 200/200 mech army. The only reason why people view late game Z as overpowered was because early + mid game Z was so underpowered that when Ultras + Broods came out, they noticed the huge difference in power-up from Zerg. No, hive tech for Z only makes ZvT balanced again.
What other significant changes were there in ZvT? Roach 1 range increase? Roaches are still roasted by Marauders + Tanks, that 1 range increase affected a lot more in ZvP than ZvT. Stop over-exaggerating. Those 2 last patches barely touched on the main issues (MULE, Marauders, PFs, Repair rate, Turrets, etc.)
Though with the siege tank doing less damage towards light units perhaps Hydralisks can be considered a play against Tanks
On October 27 2010 23:54 KaiserJohan wrote: It's like T players telling Z players to "use ur tech, nydus moar" when Z get crushed by a T ball. P telling T to use their tech; have you ever played or seen a TvP? Compare the impact 6 colossus have to 6 thors.
Show replays where T uses a high-tech army like alot of BC/Thors/banshee/Ghost/tanks and actually outright wins in a 200/200 battle, I'd be suprised if P ever went below 100 supply.
T is OP first 12 mins, midgame balanced, then P is OP. That really feels like an accurate description; question would be how to P's early and T's late without affecting the Z matchups. (although some early buff to P would certainly help against the roach buff)
(imho 250mm cannons into 9 range is one good option....)
I've been saying this over and over since beta. T was OP early game and UP late game. The fact the maps are so small and that T had a good early game (esp compared to Z) was masking the fact that T late game is terrible. I'm glad it's being recognized that TvP is NOT balanced and never has been. Hopefully ZvT starts to get the same recognition now that T early game is crippled.
First, read my post and other people's posts up there.
T > Z still in early game. The supply before rax change only made sure T can't be aggressive in the very beginning; they can still be aggressive before Z reaches lair tech and that requirement is nullified if T also chooses a more macro-orientated game, like expo earlier.
Z was never > T late game. Yes Ultras + Broods are devastating but it still dies to Terran 200/200 mech army. The only reason why people view late game Z as overpowered was because early + mid game Z was so underpowered that when Ultras + Broods came out, they noticed the huge difference in power-up from Zerg. No, hive tech for Z only makes ZvT balanced again.
What other significant changes were there in ZvT? Roach 1 range increase? Roaches are still roasted by Marauders + Tanks, that 1 range increase affected a lot more in ZvP than ZvT. Stop over-exaggerating. Those 2 last patches barely touched on the main issues (MULE, Marauders, PFs, Repair rate, Turrets, etc.)
Though with the siege tank doing less damage towards light units perhaps Hydralisks can be considered a play against Tanks
Who uses Hydras in professional-level ZvT? I'm sure there might be exceptions but mostly, no. It has also been said that lings die in the same number of hits before & after patch
On October 28 2010 20:08 Liquid`Jinro wrote: No, it would not - it would make proxy gate builds impossible to defend ;/ Marauders are actually completely useless vs stalkers until you have concussive, because the P can fight until his shields are gone and then run away.
Wouldn't stim fix this problem? If the marauders stim when the stalkers turn to run, they'll be faster.
There is no conceivable way for you to get stim by the time it matters. Concussive, on the other hand, can be gotten by the time you have 1 marauder.
The earliest stim that you can physically get is at something like 3 marauders...
On October 28 2010 20:08 Liquid`Jinro wrote: No, it would not - it would make proxy gate builds impossible to defend ;/ Marauders are actually completely useless vs stalkers until you have concussive, because the P can fight until his shields are gone and then run away.
Wouldn't stim fix this problem? If the marauders stim when the stalkers turn to run, they'll be faster.
There is no conceivable way for you to get stim by the time it matters. Concussive, on the other hand, can be gotten by the time you have 1 marauder.
The earliest stim that you can physically get is at something like 3 marauders...
On October 27 2010 23:54 KaiserJohan wrote: It's like T players telling Z players to "use ur tech, nydus moar" when Z get crushed by a T ball. P telling T to use their tech; have you ever played or seen a TvP? Compare the impact 6 colossus have to 6 thors.
Show replays where T uses a high-tech army like alot of BC/Thors/banshee/Ghost/tanks and actually outright wins in a 200/200 battle, I'd be suprised if P ever went below 100 supply.
T is OP first 12 mins, midgame balanced, then P is OP. That really feels like an accurate description; question would be how to P's early and T's late without affecting the Z matchups. (although some early buff to P would certainly help against the roach buff)
(imho 250mm cannons into 9 range is one good option....)
I've been saying this over and over since beta. T was OP early game and UP late game. The fact the maps are so small and that T had a good early game (esp compared to Z) was masking the fact that T late game is terrible. I'm glad it's being recognized that TvP is NOT balanced and never has been. Hopefully ZvT starts to get the same recognition now that T early game is crippled.
First, read my post and other people's posts up there.
T > Z still in early game. The supply before rax change only made sure T can't be aggressive in the very beginning; they can still be aggressive before Z reaches lair tech and that requirement is nullified if T also chooses a more macro-orientated game, like expo earlier.
Z was never > T late game. Yes Ultras + Broods are devastating but it still dies to Terran 200/200 mech army. The only reason why people view late game Z as overpowered was because early + mid game Z was so underpowered that when Ultras + Broods came out, they noticed the huge difference in power-up from Zerg. No, hive tech for Z only makes ZvT balanced again.
What other significant changes were there in ZvT? Roach 1 range increase? Roaches are still roasted by Marauders + Tanks, that 1 range increase affected a lot more in ZvP than ZvT. Stop over-exaggerating. Those 2 last patches barely touched on the main issues (MULE, Marauders, PFs, Repair rate, Turrets, etc.)
Z late game kinda owns T late game, not because of their units being superior but because they can reproduce much faster. And it definitely should be this way.
The exception would be if the terran decides to re-create the Maginot Line and just not move past his half of the map until the map is mined out ;/
my personal opinion is that TvP is basically in the terrans favour most of the game and then evens out VERY late, and then slight advantage for protoss when you get to end, end game colossi AND tempar
IMO it shifts into protoss favour as soon as you even approach getting maxed out.
The thing is, the style of play that seems most favoured by Korean tosses now is just so god damn defensive and passive that there is very little you can do to force the kind of game that favours Terran. The scrappier a game is, the better for Terran - but when the protoss just refuses to fight you before he has HTs AND colossi, it just gets kind of retarded.
Yes, harass is great, but not when the toss isnt leaving his main/nat (and on some maps, this can include his 3rd as its as easy to defend as his main and nat anyway), since there isnt much to distract him. Yeah, you will get a couple of pylons or whatever, big deal -.-
So many of the maps have gigantic rush distances too, making FEs annoying as hell to deal with unless you FE yourself (Scrap, Shakuras, XelNaga sort of, cross pos Metal). Then you have the retarded maps with rock backdoors into your main meaning you cant FE but the toss (or zerg for that matter) can zzzzzz
I feel really whiny right now, but I really think this matchup is going to end up completely unplayable once a certain level of play is reached by protoss (note: this does not mean that I think toss players are currently worse than terran, I just think the game hasnt evolved enough - once it does, I think so much of the shit terran relies on to win TvPs is gonna stop working).
Oh and slow medivacs are a joke, you lose soo many of them now just because they cant even keep up when you stim kite -.-
Yes, harass is great, but not when the toss isnt leaving his main/nat (and on some maps, this can include his 3rd as its as easy to defend as his main and nat anyway), since there isnt much to distract him. Yeah, you will get a couple of pylons or whatever, big deal -.-
Well, if Protoss could play more aggresive I'm sure they would, but the way it is now, your only option is to play defensive as until you have enough tech other wise you get steam rolled by Terran Bio/mech.
I feel really whiny right now, but I really think this matchup is going to end up completely unplayable once a certain level of play is reached by protoss (note: this does not mean that I think toss players are currently worse than terran, I just think the game hasnt evolved enough - once it does, I think so much of the shit terran relies on to win TvPs is gonna stop working).
I think your blowing this out of proportion. You have matches like Genius vs Loner on Scrap Station @Blizzcon where they were neck and neck the entire game (into late game as well), but Genius ended up pulling through when he grabbed the gold, but upuntil then, the entire match was even despite the fact that the Terran did not do a single drop or use a single ghost effectively. (Loner built a single ghost right at the end which got FB'd straight away).
Feedback as an argument against BattleCruisiers was somewhat legitimate a few months ago, but not anymore considering every single smart Terran EMP's their own BC's before every engagement.
On October 25 2010 20:58 DamageInq wrote: I can see marauder stim hurting the maruaders more in most situations. I think a lot of that is not caluculating your stims. There's no doubt that it's benificial when taking out an expansion, or in a maruader vs mostly stalker fight.
I think maps are a huge part of this entire problem and we need some wide open center luna style maps (imagine playing PvT on maps where you army is constantly splitting down fucking hallways or force you to run into a narrow passage if you want to attack + a more mobile terran army (since we know P in SC2 is a lot more mobile than T in BW))
The one thing I Would advocate is having observers either build faster, cost less, or placed in a different building. If drops are really such an issue its mainly due to people scouting HORRIBLY bad as protoss in this game. I see maybe 1 or 2 observers max. If you have the map just defend like you did in BW and use a pylon ring + observers. Currently while making colossus or immortal making a ton of observers can be hard so I can understand why that would be an issue so maybe move them to nexus with an upgrade at the robotics or something (or some add on after robotics like in BW)
Maps are not a big problem. Both P and T has units that can utilize the narrow spaces for optimal splash damage (Tanks, Colossus).
Making Observer faster will not change the fact that T > P early game.
I refuse to believe that P > T late game, even with Colossus. Terran needs to find different unit combination and stop using T1 units against Protoss's T3 units. Of course T1 is not supposed to take down T3 units. A more Mech army with marauders seems more suitable, especially because marines are so small that it eats up Colossus splash.
The way I see it, Marauders are the biggest problem with T > P early game. They could use a heavy nerf. (Perhaps 50% reduction in CS's slow or a cooldown)
no one uses tanks because they suck tvp especially vs colossus. Suck.
They are gas heavy and 3 food and are bad. Zealots fucking rape them + they leave you imobile as shit. The moment you overextend you get rolled and P produces units battle a million times faster than you because of warp in.
With all due respect i myself too play this extremely defensive style, becaus getting caught out in the open against a bio ball with medivac support seems suicide against T.
At the very least i feel you need zealot charge or your army will never ever reach the Terran ball kiting you.
And to people saying stuff about stim marauders against stalkers etc.
Well, Marauders just downright kill stalkers cost for cost, it's not even a fair comparison, so i fail to see the point people are making there. In my opinion it's kind of silly that just marauders beat just stalkers but i can live with it, stalkers are just pretty damn hard to utilize offensively, and the good old goon micro across the map from BW just seems pointless.
All balance issues aside, which i won't really join in the flamefest on i think there's an inherent design flaw with PvT; It's not very much fun.
It's pretty boring to just stand in your base and wank until you reach a certain tech pattern, there's no activity on the map, there's no early battle for map control.
I certainly miss the BW PvT, there was a lot more activity going on and it was certainly more dynamic.
There were certain bio attacks in BW that relied on killing off your opponent before storm was out, because Storm pretty much hardcountered bio. I still consider this to be true.
So unless Blizz intends to totally dumb down these AoE abilities and make them even less interesting than they've already made them, the only solution is for Terran to go mech as they did in BW against toss, because i just can't see bio faring well against Storm. If Storm no longer kills bio, who would ever bother making it? The templar tech tree is pretty shitty already since they split up DT's and HT's in two very expensive tech patterns.
On October 28 2010 20:08 Liquid`Jinro wrote: No, it would not - it would make proxy gate builds impossible to defend ;/ Marauders are actually completely useless vs stalkers until you have concussive, because the P can fight until his shields are gone and then run away.
Wouldn't stim fix this problem? If the marauders stim when the stalkers turn to run, they'll be faster.
There is no conceivable way for you to get stim by the time it matters. Concussive, on the other hand, can be gotten by the time you have 1 marauder.
The earliest stim that you can physically get is at something like 3 marauders...
On October 28 2010 20:08 Liquid`Jinro wrote: No, it would not - it would make proxy gate builds impossible to defend ;/ Marauders are actually completely useless vs stalkers until you have concussive, because the P can fight until his shields are gone and then run away.
Wouldn't stim fix this problem? If the marauders stim when the stalkers turn to run, they'll be faster.
There is no conceivable way for you to get stim by the time it matters. Concussive, on the other hand, can be gotten by the time you have 1 marauder.
The earliest stim that you can physically get is at something like 3 marauders...
On October 27 2010 23:54 KaiserJohan wrote: It's like T players telling Z players to "use ur tech, nydus moar" when Z get crushed by a T ball. P telling T to use their tech; have you ever played or seen a TvP? Compare the impact 6 colossus have to 6 thors.
Show replays where T uses a high-tech army like alot of BC/Thors/banshee/Ghost/tanks and actually outright wins in a 200/200 battle, I'd be suprised if P ever went below 100 supply.
T is OP first 12 mins, midgame balanced, then P is OP. That really feels like an accurate description; question would be how to P's early and T's late without affecting the Z matchups. (although some early buff to P would certainly help against the roach buff)
(imho 250mm cannons into 9 range is one good option....)
I've been saying this over and over since beta. T was OP early game and UP late game. The fact the maps are so small and that T had a good early game (esp compared to Z) was masking the fact that T late game is terrible. I'm glad it's being recognized that TvP is NOT balanced and never has been. Hopefully ZvT starts to get the same recognition now that T early game is crippled.
First, read my post and other people's posts up there.
T > Z still in early game. The supply before rax change only made sure T can't be aggressive in the very beginning; they can still be aggressive before Z reaches lair tech and that requirement is nullified if T also chooses a more macro-orientated game, like expo earlier.
Z was never > T late game. Yes Ultras + Broods are devastating but it still dies to Terran 200/200 mech army. The only reason why people view late game Z as overpowered was because early + mid game Z was so underpowered that when Ultras + Broods came out, they noticed the huge difference in power-up from Zerg. No, hive tech for Z only makes ZvT balanced again.
What other significant changes were there in ZvT? Roach 1 range increase? Roaches are still roasted by Marauders + Tanks, that 1 range increase affected a lot more in ZvP than ZvT. Stop over-exaggerating. Those 2 last patches barely touched on the main issues (MULE, Marauders, PFs, Repair rate, Turrets, etc.)
Z late game kinda owns T late game, not because of their units being superior but because they can reproduce much faster. And it definitely should be this way.
The exception would be if the terran decides to re-create the Maginot Line and just not move past his half of the map until the map is mined out ;/
my personal opinion is that TvP is basically in the terrans favour most of the game and then evens out VERY late, and then slight advantage for protoss when you get to end, end game colossi AND tempar
IMO it shifts into protoss favour as soon as you even approach getting maxed out.
The thing is, the style of play that seems most favoured by Korean tosses now is just so god damn defensive and passive that there is very little you can do to force the kind of game that favours Terran. The scrappier a game is, the better for Terran - but when the protoss just refuses to fight you before he has HTs AND colossi, it just gets kind of retarded.
Yes, harass is great, but not when the toss isnt leaving his main/nat (and on some maps, this can include his 3rd as its as easy to defend as his main and nat anyway), since there isnt much to distract him. Yeah, you will get a couple of pylons or whatever, big deal -.-
So many of the maps have gigantic rush distances too, making FEs annoying as hell to deal with unless you FE yourself (Scrap, Shakuras, XelNaga sort of, cross pos Metal). Then you have the retarded maps with rock backdoors into your main meaning you cant FE but the toss (or zerg for that matter) can zzzzzz
I feel really whiny right now, but I really think this matchup is going to end up completely unplayable once a certain level of play is reached by protoss (note: this does not mean that I think toss players are currently worse than terran, I just think the game hasnt evolved enough - once it does, I think so much of the shit terran relies on to win TvPs is gonna stop working).
In my experience what you're saying is completely true.
Unless i'm being majorly outplayed by my Terran opponent i just can't see myself losing a game against bio when i've reached storm, even with EMP i have to fuck up my templar control so badly to lose the game, it's not even funny.
On October 28 2010 20:08 Liquid`Jinro wrote: No, it would not - it would make proxy gate builds impossible to defend ;/ Marauders are actually completely useless vs stalkers until you have concussive, because the P can fight until his shields are gone and then run away.
Wouldn't stim fix this problem? If the marauders stim when the stalkers turn to run, they'll be faster.
There is no conceivable way for you to get stim by the time it matters. Concussive, on the other hand, can be gotten by the time you have 1 marauder.
The earliest stim that you can physically get is at something like 3 marauders...
Would you be willing to go into more detail on the sort of Protoss build you're thinking about here Jinro? I'm having trouble coming up with one that could exploit this window effectively.
Tanks are definitely good in certain builds. And cloaked banshees early are sick good even if the protoss has multiple (!) observers. You can keep tagging the Protoss from the sides of minerals on a lot of maps. So glad Boxer was able to show this at a pro level. If Boxer had left 1 or 2 SCVs for nearby repair he might have even gotten more kills in game 1. And defending vs banshees forces stalkers or phoenixes, which usually die horribly to marine-tank.
Proxying starports is of course the next step in evolution to make banshees even better. I love using banshees vs Toss! I hate fighting banshees as Toss!
Check out Boxer's banshees and tanks vs CoreJJang:
I think if a Terran uses tricks like these very well, at worst they can be ahead going into late game. I mean for ever 100 gas observer, Protoss is that much further from his needed tech to fight high dps terran ground.
I do take to heart Jinro's comments about P more often playing defensive for long periods and being able to defend harass much better. Still, I think this could allow Terran to be a "half" expansion ahead of P. And also open up opportunities to push hard like we saw in the Boxer games.
I guess my point is, Terran seems to have a lot of opportunities to avoid late late game where tech and bases are even. Still, time will tell.
Wouldn't ideal balance be the game being balanced throughout? I question toss being OP late game though. We've seen colossi into templar be super effective but if terran would just get ghosts out and not be so damn greedy and get more than 2 they wouldn't have many issues.
On October 29 2010 02:27 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Oh and slow medivacs are a joke, you lose soo many of them now just because they cant even keep up when you stim kite -.-
Definitely agree here. I don't know what Blizz was thinking. I never even saw a match where Terran drop was unstoppable. Heck, most of the time it looked like it required a player an order of magnitude better than their opponent to pull off drop play.
Zerg drops on the other hand are super good (because once you upgrade, they are free - you already have a ton of overlords - and they're really fast). But it seems like most zerg don't use them because zerg is so good they don't even need to, so they end up being lazy. The exception of course being the few good zerg like fruitdealer.
QXC huk IEM was quite a good showcase on how ridiculous that strategy is. Select also did a similar build at MLG.
Each drop would wipeout a similar sized defending force constantly chipping away at the army. Even if the dropship was lost... the terran seemed to maintain the initiative as the loss was not going to result in the terran being punished. That can be seen by the repeated overdropping in some cases by these terrans.
It's just intersting how Terrans complaint about these AoE units, while tosses try to explain that they flat out die without them. Gateway units exist soley to be damage sponges.
Also interesting there's no talk of the basic cheapness of the Mmm ball.
Also that everyone seems to ignore that ghosts do fantastic damage against light units like zealots.
On October 25 2010 12:58 Chairman Ray wrote: Marauder stim harms marauders? Did they offer an explanation?
Maybe they forgot to attack after stimming them.
In all seriousness, this is a bad way to balance the game. Sure, the win ratio is probably around 50/50 right now, but to have a game based where the first portion of the game favors one team while the later portion favors the other is very discouraging in terms of balance.
BW is kind of like that, T is ahead until lurkers or mutas. Z is ahead till tanks/sci. Then Z has to hold on till defiler tech comes up.
On October 29 2010 10:40 NATO wrote: Zerg drops on the other hand are super good (because once you upgrade, they are free - you already have a ton of overlords - and they're really fast). But it seems like most zerg don't use them because zerg is so good they don't even need to, so they end up being lazy. The exception of course being the few good zerg like fruitdealer.
Medivac Speed: 2.5 Overlord w/ up speed: 0.4687 (+1.4062)=1.88
Overlords are slower than Medivacs or Warp Prisms, so they aren't "really fast".
Edit: On topic imo, Terran mech balls need a buff, due to loss of spider mines for scouting/map control.
On October 25 2010 13:16 VoodooDog wrote: rine stimm should bring only 50% more firerate, not 100%. Marauder stim should be deleted. Than it will be balanced.
A Terran is always guaranteed to make it to the 0:01 second mark (start of their OPness) Protoss has a what, 50% chance to make it to the stage of the game where THEY become op..
Think about it
100% of the PvT's terran is OP 50% of the PvT's Protoss is OP
On October 29 2010 13:37 CellTech wrote: Terran is obviously favored EVERY game in a PvT.
A Terran is always guaranteed to make it to the 0:01 second mark (start of their OPness) Protoss has a what, 50% chance to make it to the stage of the game where THEY become op..
Think about it
100% of the PvT's terran is OP 50% of the PvT's Protoss is OP
?? are u trying to say that early game advantage > late game advantage because sometimes u never get to late game but u always have to go thru early game?
My perspective as a protoss player that has played sc1 and now sc2 with one race sience 1998
Lategame on EU/US servers at the moment in Diamond and Lower lvls is Amove Terrans and Amove Storm Protosses, Now there reason for the diffrence on the Korean server is the constant dropship harass with more aggressive exping instead of going for one attack where u eather loose or win. infact atm even in Pro games in EU/US u see one big battle lategame and its game. in GSL u see more of Dropship harass, and never one HUGE LOL battle where your chances of winning are 50/50.
Atleast my 0.00000000000000000001% on this issue.
i think Terran is hugely favored in this matchup, and yet i have more then 50% win rate at 2100+ points. but when i watch a replay i eather just lost or won, i see huge mistakes from the terran that a Zerg/protoss player couldnt have made if they wanted to be at this lvl. obviously i make mistakes aswell. but not as huge ones.
obviously im far from good enugh to think i can come with good feedback to this matchup or any in that matter. witch makes the stats that Blizzard presented kinda "useless", Some Races are easier at the lower levels. like Protoss, make gateways get warpgate attack, Bronze level. Terran, Make Orbital, keep Mules up, Addons, and so on. Voidrays where a proof of this back in the beta even afther the range nerf. People at the lower lvls had sick problems with voidrays whilst Diamond players had close to no issues with them unless they were proxxied.
Leats quote chill on this from a Podcast with Djwheat, "Starcraft Players usually think they are better then they actually are" therefore the huge threads and the ignorance when comming to the issue of balance. THIS includes me.
Edit reason, So many stupid reply's to this thread its annoying me: Instead of typing in this thread like a moron trying to say your the new boxer and the only thing thats stopping you is the "balance" try to come with some reasonable comments instead of saying "THIS IS IMBALANCED FIXX FOR ME PLZ SO I CAN GO GSL AND WIN MUNEH"
I like seeing all the posts that are summed up as "this should be removed then it will be balanced" and it's like "marines upgrades should slow them down and take their guns away".
EPT
