Zerg is going to win GSL2 (ez) Z>T - Page 4

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KawaiiRice

United States2914 Posts

October 25 2010 22:45 GMT

#61

On October 26 2010 07:38 SCC-Faust wrote:

Show nested quote +

Then what does?

When your mechanics are good (spawn larva/creep spread) and you understand the game rather than making ling/baneling and rolling players that don't know what to do besides what doesn't work oo;;

Edit: I'm winning games as zerg and I have no solid timings or anything like that. Shouldn't happen O O

Snuggles

United States1865 Posts

October 25 2010 22:46 GMT

#62

Notice how all the Terran players have yet to have come out admit their atrocities to us Zerg players. I just can't stop grinning =D

Of course there are Terran players who say, "well hey there was nothing wrong, Zerg players were eventually learning to adapt to the insane harass at the highest levels of play". But the problem I find with that is the fact that it required so much effort, so much skill, and a lot more luck to stay in the game and perform at that level compared to what the Terran players have at their disposal prepatch.

Terran tears are going to continue to come about, and listen I'm not gonna deny the fact that these tears can be genuine and absolutely justified but do not expect any sympathy from Zerg players. That is unless someone steps up and apologizes. Then we can all come to a mutual understanding... I hope.

snowdrift

France2061 Posts

October 25 2010 22:48 GMT

#63

On October 26 2010 04:38 avilo wrote:
Zergs right now are secretly smiling and trying to play off the "our race is so weak

" card even when they know their race is now the strongest. I find it absolutely hilarious how biased Zerg players are and how their perception of game balance is horribly off to how the game actually is.

I really like this image of malevolent Zerg players sitting in a smoke-filled backroom chortling sinisterly. Not over the top at all. Weren't you one of the "learn to nydus" guys pre-patch? You reap what you sow.

Snuggles

United States1865 Posts

October 25 2010 22:50 GMT

#64

And so all the Terran players, just quietly ignore our posts that remind them of what the state of the SC2 community was prepatch...

Isn't there some historical event that is similar to this?

knyttym

United States5797 Posts

October 25 2010 22:56 GMT

#65

On October 26 2010 07:45 KawaiiRice wrote:

Show nested quote +

These are like the exact words Zergs had to say about pre-patch terran. I agree that shouldn't be the case but we are just going in circles here

1-LeeteR

United States78 Posts

October 25 2010 23:05 GMT

#66

On October 26 2010 07:56 kNyTTyM wrote:

Show nested quote +

These are like the exact words Zergs had to say about pre-patch terran. I agree that shouldn't be the case but we are just going in circles here

You stole my words. I remember those days playing as terran and doing whatever i want. also, if youre winning on no build order/ good timing, then youre just playing terrible people. and dont even start with the blah blah he was 4000+ diamond doublerainbow league terran and i was 1 base bs.

Tsagacity

United States2124 Posts

October 25 2010 23:20 GMT

#67

On October 26 2010 07:43 Slayer91 wrote:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=126206&currentpage=All
OP previously claiming that Zerg was fine you just need to use nydus. Most of OP's threads have been whining about zerg/broodlord imba.

If you think playing "macro" vs zerg is giving him 10 free minutes to power up while you do the same sure you'll lose. Someone posted "lets me get 3 bases and then he overruns me" well yeah obviously, he got way more drones than you in a shorter time. I'll let you get an many bases as you want if I can get as many as I want, and I'll win with superior economy and superior reproduction.
Zerg doesn't magically have a superior economy, they simply can pump drones instead of units, so it means there is a window where they have less units than you. Thats what you need to pressure a lot. The plus side is if you pressure enough that he doesn't get many drones at his natural you can take a third base with full saturation and be *ahead* of zerg in economy.

Not claiming its the solution to all problems, but seriously you have to be agressive against a zerg user unless you're making an unstoppable mech army or something. It's all about the timing attacks (sound familar? oh yeah, bw TvZ)

I think zergs were learning to play zvt well at the same time the roach buff came, so there is a huge power swing right now. But I'm damn sure it wasn't anything to do with nydus, its just refining builds and learning defense timings.

Rofl, wow! :O

I made my earlier post half in jest. I didn't know the OP was the same guy. Realizing the OP here is the same guy I was joking about makes me cringe. OP do you know how hypocritical you look? o.O

My previous post for reference:

On October 26 2010 05:09 Tsagacity wrote:

Show nested quote +

I'm enjoying it thoroughly as well. So many ZvT responses last month along the lines of "No you just have to get creative! Use nydus!"

Z is op in ZvT? Nope. Terrans just need to get more creative with ravens!

Wow, and it just keeps getting better...

On October 26 2010 04:38 avilo wrote:
I find it absolutely hilarious how biased Zerg players are and how their perception of game balance is horribly off to how the game actually is.

Yeah. We're obviously the biased ones /sarcasm

I've been guessing that Z would be OP since I saw the new patch notes, but I'm going to thoroughly enjoy rubbing zerg dominance in considering you're the guy that blamed the players last patch and told them to use nydus more.

thezergk

United States492 Posts

October 25 2010 23:24 GMT

#68

On October 26 2010 04:38 avilo wrote:

If it's a PvZ in the finals, it is a toss-up.

lol was this pun intentional?

Adeny

Norway1233 Posts

October 25 2010 23:25 GMT

#69

I like how +1 roach range TURNED THE TABLES COMPLETELY and now zerg is obviously way way way way way more powerful than terran. Because I mean let's look at all the circumstances you would use roaches in TvZ:

Whew that should be about all of them, sorry for the long post but roaches are just so fucking versatile.

And hatch first? Please, as if you BBSed every game, hah.

Top zergs are just improving faster than top terrans, because it's necesarry. Zerg is simply much harder to play. I've tried doing ladder games as T and it's a laugh, I didn't drop a single point of rating, while Morrow dropped 700 and was still falling going from T to Z.

Man up, +1 range didn't change shit and you didn't stop hatch-first builds before. Boo hoo you can't abuse overpowered reapers any more and have to learn how to actually play the game by getting more than 1 base.

Zerg mid to late game is simply overdeveloped in comparison to T's because all T would do was abuse an imbalanced early game to give them a free pass through the mid/late, they didn't need to learn any timings, army positioning, compositions or micro because it wouldn't matter you could a-move with your free advantage.

Meh I might offend some newbie terrans with this post but oh well, the OP pretty much invited for a flame fest so I guess I took the bait.

Stealthpenguin

Finland393 Posts

October 25 2010 23:30 GMT

#70

I think a big factor is that for a long time there was alot more people playing terran than zerg (don't know how it's changed since the patch.)

People didn't get to practise their vZ versus good zerg's atleast, and every zerg out there was practising their ass off trying to find any way to beat terran.

Basically vT is everyones strongest matchup, combine that with patch and you have something that looks like an unbalance. If this "imbalance" is still here in a few weeks or a month then you can start saying zerg is OP or whatever.

tl;dr: Give it some time.

Tazza

Korea (South)1678 Posts

October 25 2010 23:40 GMT

#71

On October 26 2010 05:57 frogmelter wrote:

Show nested quote +

On October 26 2010 05:48 Tazza wrote:

On October 26 2010 05:27 frogmelter wrote:

On October 26 2010 05:18 Tazza wrote:

On October 26 2010 05:11 frogmelter wrote:

On October 26 2010 05:06 Tazza wrote:

On October 26 2010 04:56 frogmelter wrote:
Well as of right now, I agree that zerg has a massive advantage over Terran.

Roaches can block any harassment that you do and if don't pressure zerg, they have a million and a half more drones than you do.

Zerg lategame is really difficult to deal with as Terran. Zerg lategame with zerg having an economic advantage is even more difficult. You have to rely on the zerg making some crazy errors. Since these people are pros, it's unlikely that such an error would occur.

So yes, I second the thought that Zerg is going to win the GSLs quite handily UNLESS another patch comes.

On October 26 2010 04:56 Tazza wrote:
Zergs had to deal with much worse for 3 months. Stop complaining. The game is a lot more balanced than before the patch. Hellions are still very very strong units in early game, and its still hard for zergs to deal with multipronged drops. And marauders are still really good, and auto repair with thors is still deadly. And you guys still have the most imba mu in the game right now in tvp, where t holds a strong hand. Its been like what, a week since the new patch? We had to deal with it for 3 months, with real hardships, you're just complaining that you don't get free wins from zerg anymore

You are kidding me. TvP is not Terran favored. It's true that Terran early game is stronger than Protoss early game, but with the depot before rax junk it's not as big of an advantage. Protoss late game totally trashes Terran.

Think about it this way. For Terran, you start out with marines, marauders, medivacs, and maybe ghosts and maybe vikings. When you end, you end with the same exact units.

Except Protoss late game can spam 75 energy temps and Colossi that deal over a hundred damage per shot.

And just because zerg was underpowered at a point does not make for a good argument that zerg should be overpowered for a time period 'to make up for it'.

The supply before rax barely affects the tvp matchup at all. No one used reapers against protoss, and not many people did a bbs against terran. And if you can start out with so many units, you can harass. That's what terran is in sc2, its about harass. No other race can get t3 units as fast as you. You can get thors superfast, and even bcs really fast, but zerg and protoss take very long to get those units. And if you allow protoss to get a lot of temps and colossi, thats your fault. Temps and colossi require a crapload of gas, and therefore you need a lot of expansions. You don't let a toss do that, just like how a toss doesn't allow zergs to macro up like that in the pvz matchup

I never liked the reasoning "don't let it get up to that point". With the 1 gate FE pretty much safe and standard, 2 base Protoss can go colossus into templar pretty easily while taking a third. 3 bases, or even 2, is enough for a critical mass of colossus or HT.

My point wasn't "don't let it get up to that point" My point was, you don't let a toss to expand freely. If he's stuck on 2 bases for a while, he will not have enough gas to constantly pump out templars and collossi, while getting the upgrades for them. And its not easy for toss to get extra bases. Their army is pretty immobile, and you can take the expos out with a few multipronged attacks. Stimmed marauders kill buildings super fast, and are really great units against protoss gateway units.

And to the "don't let it get up to that point" argument, a lot of starcraft is about that. In pvz, thats what its all about, the toss can't let the zerg be on 5-6 fully saturated bases, because they know they'll be overrrun. So toss has to make good timing attacks to stop this. This doesn't stop pvz from being imba, it is one of the most balance mus in the game, and even slightly favors protoss. Even in BW, a lot of tvz was about not letting zerg get that 4th gas, and pushing out with 1 vessel, 3 tanks, and mnm to stop the zerg.

Which is why TvP is balanced at most. I still don't see how T>>>P in TvP. And it really depends on the positions. I'll agree that TvP on close positions is a fair bit easier, but far positions let the protoss expand a lot more freely.

It's not really about 'letting' the protoss expand freely. Obviously Terran should have units at the expansions constantly scouting. Protoss just needs to expand when there's a good enough timing for it [after an army trade or something of that sort].

Well you can't say tvp is balanced because zvp is balanced because they both require a race to "not let it get to the point"

And I still believe it is imba, because tvp was imba before the patches, and the patches have done absolutely nothing, except for the tank nerf, but even then, tanks weren't used much in tvp, as they were hardcountered by immortals, and could be lifted up by phoenix, etc. And you cannot say that the depot before barracks or the reaper nerf affected tvp in any way because no one bunker rushed a toss, or used reapers against them. And marauders are just so good, for so little cost

Show nested quote +

Hmmmmmm no one used reapers? Hmmmm..........

And I never said "Well you can't say tvp is balanced because zvp is balanced because they both require a race to "not let it get to the point"" Could you please link me to where I stated that?

My "Which is why TvP is balanced at most." statement was NOT a response to your second paragraph about BW.

You said "which is why tvp is balanced at most" What were you referring to then? And my second paragraph was not entirely about bw. You have still not made a single valid point that would say that tvp is now a balanced matchup. Listen, there were about 100 victories by terran in all tournaments so far, only about 20 wins for zerg, and a few more wins for protoss. There were 4 out of 8 terrans in quarterfinals of gsl, 3 out of 4 in semifinals, without a single protoss. Now tell me that tvp wasn 't balanced before. If it was, there would have been a fairly somilar number of toss and terrans, but terrans dominated the entire game, meaning they had advantages against both races. Now with the patches, zvt might be better balanced, but there really isn't a single nerf/buff for terran or protoss that changed how the matchup is played.

And reapers were never used in tvp, so don't even go there. Kinda like hydras against terran

frogmelter

United States971 Posts

October 25 2010 23:51 GMT

#72

On October 26 2010 08:40 Tazza wrote:

Show nested quote +

On October 26 2010 05:57 frogmelter wrote:

On October 26 2010 05:48 Tazza wrote:

On October 26 2010 05:27 frogmelter wrote:

On October 26 2010 05:18 Tazza wrote:

On October 26 2010 05:11 frogmelter wrote:

On October 26 2010 05:06 Tazza wrote:

On October 26 2010 05:38 KawaiiRice wrote:

On October 26 2010 05:06 Tazza wrote:
The supply before rax barely affects the tvp matchup at all. No one used reapers against protoss, and not many people did a bbs against terran. And if you can start out with so many units, you can harass. That's what terran is in sc2, its about harass. No other race can get t3 units as fast as you. You can get thors superfast, and even bcs really fast, but zerg and protoss take very long to get those units. And if you allow protoss to get a lot of temps and colossi, thats your fault. Temps and colossi require a crapload of gas, and therefore you need a lot of expansions. You don't let a toss do that, just like how a toss doesn't allow zergs to macro up like that in the pvz matchup

I actually practiced a 2rax reaper into exp opening for WEEKS before the patch, and it was reallyllylyl strong... too bad I don't have it anymore eh ? - o-;;

Saying you don't let a Protoss take a third is silly. You're conceding the point that Terran late game is horrible and we have to play aggressive as hell and/or get lucky early-midgame (hellion drops or lucky breaks/catching a bad protoss off guard with cloak banshee vs no robo). And since Protoss is on the defensive, if they don't screw up how can Terran win? Because it's really on the Protoss to play correct and just survive the aggression until their gas kicks in and they reach late game.

Talk to QXC about reapers vs Protoss. Yes they were used. He loves Reapers vs Protoss. KawaiiRice said he had a 2 rax reaper build vs Protoss. Yes, they were not common, but they worked.

And I said it's balanced AT MOST. Meaning that I believe it to be Protoss favored, but I'm willing to consider it balanced as an argument. Saying Terran is favored in TvP is not an argument that I'm really going to take seriously.

Blizzard's statistics say that TvP is Protoss favored.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163596
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163764&currentpage=All

This will be my last post on TvP in this thread. Any more would be considered derailing the topic. PM me if you wish to discuss.

Subversion

South Africa3627 Posts

October 26 2010 00:05 GMT

#73

I was really hoping this wasn't just going to be a pure QQ post... but it is :<

Pretty lame.

Also, I know BoxeR is a hero and I admire him too... but come on guys, he's not at the level of winning GSL. SangHo or Fruitdealer would crush him.

Edit: lololol the fact that the OP actually MADE A THREAD with "l2nydus" in the title is just too awesome for me to comprehend right now.

Wolf

Korea (South)3290 Posts

October 26 2010 00:05 GMT

#74

On October 26 2010 09:05 Subversion wrote:
I was really hoping this wasn't just going to be a pure QQ post... but it is :<

Pretty lame.

Also, I know BoxeR is a hero and I admire him too... but come on guys, he's not at the level of winning GSL. SangHo or Fruitdealer would crush him.

I agree. SangHo fighting!

Kishkumen

United States650 Posts

October 26 2010 00:18 GMT

#75

I am so sick and tired of this. The patch has been out for two weeks! Unless you have a crystal ball, you're really just making things up so you can complain. Terrans need to spend at least another month or two developing new strategies that don't rely on the Zerg losing half of their drones to hellions or reapers in the first five minutes of the game. If Zerg players are still winning more of their games at that time, then we can discuss imbalance. But please, the patch is so new that saying anything about balance is premature. Let strategies settle. Be patient. Then if there's still a problem, Blizzard will patch it. Until then, your energy is better spent trying to develop new strategies instead of whining to Blizzard to fix it.

That said, Terran late game does seem a little weak at the moment and mutalisks feel pretty strong. But I'm not sure if that's because of inherent balance issues or because Terran players don't really have as good of strategies or timings post-patch. The patch destroyed Terran strategy, so it'll take time to adjust to the point where we can comment on balance. It's expected that Zerg win rate would shoot up after this patch, because all Zerg strategies only gained viability while many Terran strategies lost viability.

frogmelter

United States971 Posts

October 26 2010 00:37 GMT

#76

On October 26 2010 07:46 Snuggles wrote:
Notice how all the Terran players have yet to have come out admit their atrocities to us Zerg players. I just can't stop grinning =D

Of course there are Terran players who say, "well hey there was nothing wrong, Zerg players were eventually learning to adapt to the insane harass at the highest levels of play". But the problem I find with that is the fact that it required so much effort, so much skill, and a lot more luck to stay in the game and perform at that level compared to what the Terran players have at their disposal prepatch.

Terran tears are going to continue to come about, and listen I'm not gonna deny the fact that these tears can be genuine and absolutely justified but do not expect any sympathy from Zerg players. That is unless someone steps up and apologizes. Then we can all come to a mutual understanding... I hope.

This reminds me of the prisoner and warden experiment.

Anyways, the problem with this line of logic is that you are assuming that no Terran players gave sympathy to the Zerg, which is untrue.

Let's say 60% of Terrans were unsympathetic and 40% were sympathetic. Does that means you need to treat the 40% that were sympathetic like they weren't?

DragonDefonce

United States790 Posts

October 26 2010 00:56 GMT

#77

It is not that zerg will win gsl2, it is that fruitdealer will win gsl2

Snuggles

United States1865 Posts

October 26 2010 00:59 GMT

#78

On October 26 2010 09:37 frogmelter wrote:

Show nested quote +

Now don't get me wrong, I haven't typed out all there is to cover all the possible holes in my post. Typing "all the Terrans" was wrong, and I'm man enough to apologize for that.

I honestly feel bad for players who play Terran, no sarcasm at all. Because I know for a fact there are a lot of fantastic Terran players out there, and they will be tainted by the fact that most Terran players were very unsympathetic to Zerg players, while they acknowledged the issues in the ZvT Match-Up and openly discussed reasonable solutions to it.

However, because of people like Avilo, the other 60%, Terran will be branded as a race that is played by people who are hypocrites and so on. I mean seriously after reading that topic that Avilo made before the patch, I can only /facepalm. Hard evidence unrefutable right there.

Dfgj

Singapore5922 Posts

October 26 2010 01:33 GMT

#79

I don't care either way, I'm protoss. Marauders AND Roaches beat stalkers by cost. You're all imba.

Hang in there JMC.

vlaric

United States412 Posts

October 26 2010 01:50 GMT

#80

Hm, Zerg OP?

On September 09 2010 09:47 avilo wrote:
solution: play the game it is and get better at it.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=151402#7

I actually think that you're way off base with your predictions on GSL. There are plenty of great T, Z, and P players (Boxer, Nada, SangHo, Idra), and I think any of them have a decent shot at winning.

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