EPTOr it will become what it was in early beta ...
Zerg is going to win GSL2 (ez) Z>T - Page 3
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noD
2230 Posts
Or it will become what it was in early beta ... | ||
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cmgillett
United States335 Posts
On October 26 2010 05:25 itzzspencer wrote: how about you try something different instead of turtling death ball, or reaper harass or proxy? did you know you can build a unit called a ghost? oh what? theres a unit called raven? holy shit how do i use abilities? omg i can hotkey the number 2? oh damn theyre getting so much drones, too bad i cant mule for a quick 300 minerals. aww QQ i my seige tanks dont do 75 dmg anymore, therefore theyre utterly useless. oh yeah and since reapers dont exist anymore, i guess i cant harass his minerals during mid-game because reapers cost 300/200. oh and my flame throwing car costs too much gas to early harass. those damn zerg dont have to larvae manage at all. im not being sarcastic. anyway, im a zerg player, ill be honest, im loving the patch updates, but im gonna pull the fruitdealer card. well all zerg felt underpowered, look who won gsl. who says terran cant learn like fruitdealer did? unless youre suggesting that all terran are mindless zombies, there are great terran players and dont think you its about time for some terran metagame? Zerg's supreme advantage always existed in the late game since the beta. It was their inability to deal with harassment that began to overshadow that glaring issue. GSL1 and on, we began to see zergs learn to hold off these types of attacks. However, since that skill is no longer needed, all the remains is a ridiculous macro ability and no real way to stop it currently. I am eager to see if there is one. It would definitely make for a pretty boring game if Terran either had to all-in and kill the zerg early enough before their macro kicked in and it was over. I realize many of these replies are from players own experiences and perspectives, but what we must also understand is that unless we are at the very top skill-wise or near it, these problems presented don't resonate in their entirety. Your experiences as a 1400 level zerg or terran player don't directly translate to the issues in the semi-professional and professional scene. | ||
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KawaiiRice
United States2914 Posts
On October 26 2010 05:06 Tazza wrote: The supply before rax barely affects the tvp matchup at all. No one used reapers against protoss, and not many people did a bbs against terran. And if you can start out with so many units, you can harass. That's what terran is in sc2, its about harass. No other race can get t3 units as fast as you. You can get thors superfast, and even bcs really fast, but zerg and protoss take very long to get those units. And if you allow protoss to get a lot of temps and colossi, thats your fault. Temps and colossi require a crapload of gas, and therefore you need a lot of expansions. You don't let a toss do that, just like how a toss doesn't allow zergs to macro up like that in the pvz matchup Should have heard PainUser talk about his proxy rax builds before MLG DC~;; I actually practiced a 2rax reaper into exp opening for WEEKS before the patch, and it was reallyllylyl strong... too bad I don't have it anymore eh ? - o-;; Saying you don't let a Protoss take a third is silly. You're conceding the point that Terran late game is horrible and we have to play aggressive as hell and/or get lucky early-midgame (hellion drops or lucky breaks/catching a bad protoss off guard with cloak banshee vs no robo). And since Protoss is on the defensive, if they don't screw up how can Terran win? Because it's really on the Protoss to play correct and just survive the aggression until their gas kicks in and they reach late game. | ||
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ShoeFactory
United States186 Posts
I remember when zergs were having trouble before patch 1.1 and at the end of the beta, you were making threads telling zergs to "try something new" such as MASS NYDUS (which hardly made any sense btw). And when terran might seem to be on the backfoot a couple weeks after the recent patch, the only posts ive seen from you are zerg imba whine posts. Maybe you should wait a while longer before whining. After all, us zergs have been dealing with it for months and you've hardly had a couple weeks. The terrans need a bit of time to figure out what works now post patch. Also, maybe the terrans that went high up into the ladder are now on even footing with some of the skilled zergs. Maybe that's why theres a perception of "imbalance"; zergs are no longer given a handicap and to terrans, it might feel like zerg is imbalanced. But rather, maybe your opponents have always been better. | ||
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Whole
United States6046 Posts
On October 26 2010 05:31 frogmelter wrote: Zerg was already a viable race. A zerg won GSL 1. No one contested that zerg was not viable prepatch. lol? Personally, I think Terran may have been overnerfed, but I also don't think they are exploring their options. After early game gimmicks, Terran players seem to be too passive. I think they should be more active by stopping creep and doing more Blue Flame Hellion harass. Mutalisks stop all of this, but they can't harass you AND defend at the same time. Well maybe they can with these stupidly small ladder maps, but once maps get bigger, I'm sure Terran will have more harass options. I never seen a Terran try to actively stop creep. Send one Raven and maybe a Reaper to try to hunt tumors. While doing that, run some hellions by and harass the mineral line. Also, I think Terrans could try to do a timing push before a lot of Mutalisks pop to force Zergs to build Crawlers or Lings...similar to SCI. At least let this new patch play out a little...this was a major patch with significant gameplay changes, give it some time. | ||
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vnlegend
United States1389 Posts
Sen was doing what every zerg is doing vs Loner, that is abuse the newfound awesomeness of the roaches. Loner just predicted his style and took him down with marauders, but this won't work more than a few times as marauders do crap dmg vs lings and don't shoot up. | ||
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KawaiiRice
United States2914 Posts
On October 26 2010 05:45 vnlegend wrote: Yea Terran is basically screwed now. Terran's lategame is absolutely crap and get CRUSHED by both Zerg and Protoss. There is simply no answer to Broodlords/corrupters, Ultralisks, storm+colossus. Zerg can massive drone pump and use roaches to defend against any harass until mid-game means gg for Terrans. Sen was doing what every zerg is doing vs Loner, that is abuse the newfound awesomeness of the roaches. Loner just predicted his style and took him down with marauders, but this won't work more than a few times as marauders do crap dmg vs lings and don't shoot up. Game 1 of Sen vs Loner was just Sen screwing up REALLY BADLY with his micro. Tens of roaches were thrown away due to mismicro/poor decision making. Game 2 Loner played a style that TvZ is definitely shifting to and is pretty strong though. Worth watching for Terrans. | ||
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Tazza
Korea (South)1678 Posts
On October 26 2010 05:27 frogmelter wrote: Which is why TvP is balanced at most. I still don't see how T>>>P in TvP. And it really depends on the positions. I'll agree that TvP on close positions is a fair bit easier, but far positions let the protoss expand a lot more freely. It's not really about 'letting' the protoss expand freely. Obviously Terran should have units at the expansions constantly scouting. Protoss just needs to expand when there's a good enough timing for it [after an army trade or something of that sort]. Well you can't say tvp is balanced because zvp is balanced because they both require a race to "not let it get to the point" And I still believe it is imba, because tvp was imba before the patches, and the patches have done absolutely nothing, except for the tank nerf, but even then, tanks weren't used much in tvp, as they were hardcountered by immortals, and could be lifted up by phoenix, etc. And you cannot say that the depot before barracks or the reaper nerf affected tvp in any way because no one bunker rushed a toss, or used reapers against them. And marauders are just so good, for so little cost | ||
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frogmelter
United States971 Posts
On October 26 2010 05:48 Tazza wrote: Well you can't say tvp is balanced because zvp is balanced because they both require a race to "not let it get to the point" And I still believe it is imba, because tvp was imba before the patches, and the patches have done absolutely nothing, except for the tank nerf, but even then, tanks weren't used much in tvp, as they were hardcountered by immortals, and could be lifted up by phoenix, etc. And you cannot say that the depot before barracks or the reaper nerf affected tvp in any way because no one bunker rushed a toss, or used reapers against them. And marauders are just so good, for so little cost On October 26 2010 05:38 KawaiiRice wrote: I actually practiced a 2rax reaper into exp opening for WEEKS before the patch, and it was reallyllylyl strong... too bad I don't have it anymore eh ? - o-;; Saying you don't let a Protoss take a third is silly. You're conceding the point that Terran late game is horrible and we have to play aggressive as hell and/or get lucky early-midgame (hellion drops or lucky breaks/catching a bad protoss off guard with cloak banshee vs no robo). And since Protoss is on the defensive, if they don't screw up how can Terran win? Because it's really on the Protoss to play correct and just survive the aggression until their gas kicks in and they reach late game. Hmmmmmm no one used reapers? Hmmmm.......... And I never said "Well you can't say tvp is balanced because zvp is balanced because they both require a race to "not let it get to the point"" Could you please link me to where I stated that? My "Which is why TvP is balanced at most." statement was NOT a response to your second paragraph about BW. | ||
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Teeny
Austria885 Posts
Next patch comes in 3 months, stick with it! : ] | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
On October 26 2010 06:08 Tiny.pat wrote: Hilarious thread. It´s like the mirror of the pre-patch zerg thread. Next patch comes in 3 months, stick with it! : ] Future me: "Omfg protoss is so imba" Actually, I think the real problem is zerg, sorry to say, just has better overall players. I mean, there's Idra, who just switched to SC2 from the begining and has dominated with such a stable playstyle. And then there's cool, probably the best progamer from BW(besides the bonjwas and July Zerg, and Cool started earlier). If you take a look at boxer/nada, they're already at a top level. I think this is really showing how it's not so much race, but skill and talent. Plus, terran just need to come up with new builds like zerg did. I mean, we figured out the 14 gas 14 pool, which dealt with most terran early pressure. | ||
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Inkarnate
Canada840 Posts
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GreatFall
United States1061 Posts
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QuixoticO
Netherlands810 Posts
Maybe you should stop massing Mech as the answer to every Zerg Build and start playing better like everyone told Zerg to do as answer to every early push or harassment option Terran had/has against Zerg. | ||
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accordion
Canada58 Posts
Just get creative guys, make some Ravens! | ||
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bakedace
United States672 Posts
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KawaiiRice
United States2914 Posts
On October 26 2010 07:21 bakedace wrote: Specifically remember kawaii Rice saying "all zergs are just bad" about a month ago... Now hes in here complaining already... lol. fortunately I can still say that most of them are bad except for a handful ^^; Winning games because T's haven't figured out viable solid play doesn't make a zerg good really. | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
On October 26 2010 07:35 KawaiiRice wrote: fortunately I can still say that most of them are bad except for a handful ^^; Winning games because T's haven't figured out viable solid play doesn't make a zerg good really. Then what does? | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
I know how it feels to be in that position so not going to tell you to suck it up. As for your prediction, I don't think Zerg is going to win. The number of quality zergs right now compared to the Terrans + Toss isn't even close. Back in beta, it was a different story since all the progamers chose it. Only Idra (maybe) and Cool have GSL winning potential. Reason I mentioned Idra is they basically wiped his weakness with this patch. Zenio hasn't impressed me and Check still isn't much of a macro player. The rest are somewhat unknown or unimpressive. Terran has Rainbow, Ensnare, NaDa, Boxer, and MVP. Rainbow and Ensnare showed a lot of strength in their GSL runs. NaDa and Boxer have the experience, and MVP was A-team progamer (1 of 3) Protoss has NEXgenius, Sangho(#2), and JMC (#3). I think any of these 8 (t+p) could beat any one of the other zergs easily. So then I feel it comes down to these 8 vs Idra/Cool where anything can happen. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
OP previously claiming that Zerg was fine you just need to use nydus. Most of OP's threads have been whining about zerg/broodlord imba. If you think playing "macro" vs zerg is giving him 10 free minutes to power up while you do the same sure you'll lose. Someone posted "lets me get 3 bases and then he overruns me" well yeah obviously, he got way more drones than you in a shorter time. I'll let you get an many bases as you want if I can get as many as I want, and I'll win with superior economy and superior reproduction. Zerg doesn't magically have a superior economy, they simply can pump drones instead of units, so it means there is a window where they have less units than you. Thats what you need to pressure a lot. The plus side is if you pressure enough that he doesn't get many drones at his natural you can take a third base with full saturation and be *ahead* of zerg in economy. Not claiming its the solution to all problems, but seriously you have to be agressive against a zerg user unless you're making an unstoppable mech army or something. It's all about the timing attacks (sound familar? oh yeah, bw TvZ) I think zergs were learning to play zvt well at the same time the roach buff came, so there is a huge power swing right now. But I'm damn sure it wasn't anything to do with nydus, its just refining builds and learning defense timings. | ||
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