EPTZerg is going to win GSL2 (ez) Z>T - Page 6
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
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Zlasher
United States9129 Posts
On October 26 2010 19:58 Subversion wrote: You should watch MLG DC, where qxc wins a game against IdrA by using HSM on his mutas. + Show Spoiler + Owned. Hey guess what, he was THERE AT MLG, he saw it. | ||
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LuckyFool
United States9015 Posts
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Senx
Sweden5901 Posts
Bling/ling/muta is just such a versitile army composition and a cost efficent way to counter anything the terran throws at you, and when you have the larvae saved up and can replenish after a fight way quicker than the terran opponent the game quickly fall out of the terrans hands and its now more obvious than ever. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
And apparently people do not remember beta when Z was easily the strongest race. Myself and others pointed that out heavily during BETA -> the entire purpose of a beta is to give feedback, and when once race becomes freewin lategame...the game isn't balanced. It's just gone back to being that way now. It's just worse though, and it's not just TvZ, T has the same problems late game versus P when there are storm+collosus that rape any sized T army. P almost autowins lategame from having those strong AOE, while Z does it through larva inject. And for gods sake, just because i'm pointing out how Z>T this patch does not mean I am biased. I was one of the Terrans last patch that posted that Zerg needed a lot of help early game, and that so many things are unscoutable for Zerg, and hell, for T/P as well. You know why they nerfed void rays? Because of that fucking ridiculous autowin proxy stargate -> accumulate 3 voids -> freewin strat. Anyways, like i've always said about how blizzard is balancing SC2 now...they just keep making the game a new game every patch. Balance shouldn't completely change from T > Z to Z > T. They overnerfed Terran with removing reapers from the game, and doing depot b4 rax + buffing zerg. Maybe they wno't make the same mistake next patch? And yah, I agree luckyfool. Ravens need a buff either to their own movement speed, or to the HSM energy requirement, or speed of the missile so the opponent has to PREEMPTIVELY run, instead of 100% evasion sometimes. It's very gimmicky and once you launch it it's out of your control whether it does damage to your opponent, to your own army as well, or does any damage at all. Irradiate was guaranteed damage to at least 1 unit of Z in SC1. And that was imbalanced but everything in BW was.  I can't see anyone other than a Zerg winning GSL though. Even b4 this last mega zerg buff patch, Zergs had begun to figure out ling/muta/baneling stomped basically anything. | ||
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news
892 Posts
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Tsagacity
United States2124 Posts
On October 27 2010 03:06 avilo wrote: You made a post a while ago saying that people were overreacting to the roach nerf. lol @ so many people taking things out of context and then attacking me. I want the game to be balanced. People quoting things out of context are stupid. Now it's been 2 weeks since the patch and here you are whining. Please explain the missing context. It's not even the mentioned posts either. Going through your post history shows you spend half your time here whining about zerg, and then you have the balls to call everyone else biased. Instead of whining, why don't you take your own advice? On September 09 2010 09:47 avilo wrote: solution: play the game it is and get better at it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=151402#7 | ||
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Licmyobelisk
Philippines3682 Posts
On October 26 2010 15:25 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Terrans right now are not using all their options they can versus Zerg swarm. And I will just say about the neosteel frame, this is one of the most abusive things in the game for Terran, and Terrans are completely ignoring it and playing stubborn and dyinig to the Zerg swarm. And you…can build like…many bunkers and command centers!! Abuse it! I expected neosteel frames to be heavily nerfed like 3 patches ago, but people still refuse to abuse it like it should be abused, and that’s by building a ton of bunkers and command centers everywhere on the map. Especially near the end of mid-game, and start of late-game, and versus something like roach ultra, it is essential, so start using em...start thinking like the SC1 players, and stop thinking like "i wanna mass marauders" sc2 terran players Thanks for this, will try this a lot ^_^ I'm all okay with the nerfed terran and stuff, but I hope that HSM gets buff at least at a 100 energy that's the time i going to use it a lot. Mostly the only thing I do now against Zerg is cheesy tactics and how they play out well before mid game.. other than that if I try playing against zerg straight up, I wait for an army of 200/200 before moving out. Sounds gay but that's the only thing I can think of winning. | ||
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
On October 27 2010 02:04 Senx wrote: Its like I wrote on the battle.net forums, for months a fundamental flaw in the TvZ matchup has been hidden because of the abusive and cheesy play by terrans disallowing zergs to reach the mid-late game unhurt. Now that zerg has finally figured out (through patches and playstyle) a way to get there in good shape their macro mechanics + high dps unit combo just absolutely shit all over terran. Bling/ling/muta is just such a versitile army composition and a cost efficent way to counter anything the terran throws at you, and when you have the larvae saved up and can replenish after a fight way quicker than the terran opponent the game quickly fall out of the terrans hands and its now more obvious than ever. Ya most people notice it but these thoughts were ultimately clouded by the early game whining. Reaper and bunker build time should get knocked down to pre 1.1 patch. I think there is a small window now to hurt a 14hatch zerg but that decreased time would be really helpful. Fungal + bane has always been absurd so not sure what to do about that. Maybe make fungal have a small projectile like it was in early beta so peaking at an army doesn't instantly result in death every time. This is all coming from a Z player. Just going to chime in on the raven. Not only can you dodge HSM, but the 125 energy cost allows only 1 hsm per raven at any given time and the left over energy (@200 energy max) you can't even throw down a PDD. With irradiate you had guaranteed damage + 3 casts on a full energy upgraded science vessel(250 max with upgrade 75energy irradiates). I suggest decreasing splash, decrease damage, increase speed slightly, and knock it down to 100energy so you can get 2 per full energy raven. Hmm what if the HSM missile had guaranteed damage using some kind of accelerating missile feature. Like you shoot it at a mutalisk and it will always hit but takes 10 seconds giving zerg time to split. If muta runs directly at you, it will function the way it does now. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
Now the game is more "solved," and so ravens are becoming the Terran version of "omg build nydus worms," but us Terrans lately are trying Ravens and...it's not working lol. When all your options are exhausted...something is wrong. Maybe I'm just making an early call and that is just my opinion...but nothing changed late game Terran-wise. There's nothing new between this patch and last patch for Terran, except that we got our early game options limited even further, rather than Zerg's options being buffed @_@. So yeh, i hope people realize the reason Terrans are doing "gimmicky two base builds" is because we all know it's impossible to win a macro game versus Zerg. It was the same way pre-Terran dominance in beta. Terrans were doing ridiculously bad, random, gimicky builds because if you left Zerg untouched or were unable to do little cute harrass, you lose the game. | ||
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
MLG: You also came up against QXC. He was able to take a game off of you with a strong Thor/Raven push; is that a strategy you run into a lot? Idra: No, actually I've been waiting for people to start using Ravens more as I feel they're very powerful, underused units. Although generally I expect Point Defense Drone to be used more than Hunter-Seeker Missile, his build was quite impressive. I'm not sure if it’s possible to beat it after opening Muta—it might require you to go Roach to counter it. | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
He keeps posting all these "claims" of how he knows Zerg is "OP" and Terran is "UP" based on no more than his incompetence and skewed view of how he apparently watches games. Yet the ironic thing is statistics disagree with him, so there really is no more need for back and forth arguing with someone who refuses to listen to anyone besides himself. That and I believe Terran currently has the highest win percentage match-up, TvP, being favored 54%. Yet all the Terran players are expecting Protoss to get nerfed, and them being untouched. Smart thinkers, huh? A simple look at any game with common sense can tell you Terran isn't UP, but if you're not saavy with gameplay theory then you can always go to the Starcraft 2 forum and read the numbers and race statistics. Sure, time will tell if things are to change. But in the current state Terran is STILL in the lead with pretty much everything. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=164129 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163865 But ya know, Terrans can refute it all they want. It is just they look so ridiculously dumb in doing so. | ||
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lastmotion
368 Posts
On October 26 2010 10:50 vlaric wrote: Hm, Zerg OP? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=151402#7 He tells Zergs in the past to "learn 2 play" and now he comes here to whine when ZvT is STILL hugely in favor of Terran? Disgusting. Even without a reaper opening, Terrans still have more harrassing options to Z than vice versa The supply before rax nerf only means that T has to FE earlier and play a macro game instead The 1 range roach increase mostly affected ZvP. ZvT, roaches are still roasted by Marauders The Tank Nerf is the only one that I see that actually did something. So Zergs have a slightly better chance now even though ZvT is still hugely in favor of Terran so you start complaining? On October 27 2010 03:06 avilo wrote: lol @ so many people taking things out of context and then attacking me. I want the game to be balanced. I doubt the honesty of your post. You want the game to be balanced but when ZvT was at a critically broken state in the past, you were one of those "Learn to play, Use Nydus" fanatics this thread should be closed.. | ||
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lastmotion
368 Posts
On October 27 2010 13:47 SCC-Faust wrote: I really don't understand how people can take OP seriously. He keeps posting all these "claims" of how he knows Zerg is "OP" and Terran is "UP" based on no more than his incompetence and skewed view of how he apparently watches games. Yet the ironic thing is statistics disagree with him, so there really is no more need for back and forth arguing with someone who refuses to listen to anyone besides himself. That and I believe Terran currently has the highest win percentage match-up, TvP, being favored 54%. Yet all the Terran players are expecting Protoss to get nerfed, and them being untouched. Smart thinkers, huh? A simple look at any game with common sense can tell you Terran isn't UP, but if you're not saavy with gameplay theory then you can always go to the Starcraft 2 forum and read the numbers and race statistics. Sure, time will tell if things are to change. But in the current state Terran is STILL in the lead with pretty much everything. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=164129 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163865 But ya know, Terrans can refute it all they want. It is just they look so ridiculously dumb in doing so. I agree with your point but you have to kind of try to understand their point of view too. They've been getting to the higher leagues with the heavily broken ZvT, and when the matchup slowly shows signs of becoming a bit more fair, it's only natural to have the "don't nerf my race bro" attitude because they know that they won't remain in their leagues. It's also a tactic to over-exaggerate minor balance changes to shift the community's view on the matchup so that future nerfs don't happen to their race. Mark my words, if 1.13 gives Hydras a slight speed boost, they're going to scream Zerg OP Terran UP because Hydras dominate the matchup-kind of reasoning, even if no one still uses Hydras because they still remain sucky. | ||
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
TheWind (Z) VS ZergBong (Z) Idra (Z) VS Zenio (Z) NaDa (T) VS Leenock (Z) Check (Z) VS Rainbow (T) Kyrix (Z) VS Ensnare (T) so out of 10 players we have 7 zergs, 3 terran and 0 protoss, which is a little scary :/ | ||
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mustache
Switzerland309 Posts
On October 27 2010 14:50 lastmotion wrote: I agree with your point but you have to kind of try to understand their point of view too. They've been getting to the higher leagues with the heavily broken ZvT, and when the matchup slowly shows signs of becoming a bit more fair, it's only natural to have the "don't nerf my race bro" attitude because they know that they won't remain in their leagues. It's also a tactic to over-exaggerate minor balance changes to shift the community's view on the matchup so that future nerfs don't happen to their race. Mark my words, if 1.13 gives Hydras a slight speed boost, they're going to scream Zerg OP Terran UP because Hydras dominate the matchup-kind of reasoning, even if no one still uses Hydras because they still remain sucky. how people can deny Zergs(even before the patch) lategame advantage is beyond me. the only solution to this has been harassing the zergs eco to stop them getting to that point(which is already a flawed idea). Now roaches rape hellions even more + queen = no possible hellion harass anymore. Reapers? Too slow. The Imbalance before the patch swung both ways, Z lategame and T early game. now you took out T early game imbalance so only the endgame zerg is seen. early game happens to be before late game so that why only T was percieved as imba. Solution? Nerf larva injection. and bring back reaper speed. a)change max larva b)change required energy c) reapers were already used less after the buildtime nerf, there was no need to nerf them into uselessness. with the roach range they will be even less of a threat but still viable if you have the control | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
On October 27 2010 15:26 mustache wrote: how people can deny Zergs(even before the patch) lategame advantage is beyond me. the only solution to this has been harassing the zergs eco to stop them getting to that point(which is already a flawed idea). Now roaches rape hellions even more + queen = no possible hellion harass anymore. Reapers? Too slow. The Imbalance before the patch swung both ways, Z lategame and T early game. now you took out T early game imbalance so only the endgame zerg is seen. early game happens to be before late game so that why only T was percieved as imba. Solution? Nerf larva injection. and bring back reaper speed. a)change max larva b)change required energy c) reapers were already used less after the buildtime nerf, there was no need to nerf them into uselessness. with the roach range they will be even less of a threat but still viable if you have the control You have no idea what you're talking about. I could write paragraphs of why everything you said is ridiculous. But I'd rather just reference to my previous post. Either numbers are lying, or you're a SC2 strategy prodigy. Onwards to Blizzard HQ man, they need you bad. | ||
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mustache
Switzerland309 Posts
1)thats a great list for referencing to man, thanks! now i know who the best players are and why select won the GSL... Oh wait, thats a RETARDED list which says absolutely nothing about the state of the game. 2)Your second quote is as usless as the first. When commenting on balance you have to look at the top players in the world. the GSL. not some crappy cups around the world. . The only actually useful tournament you quoted was MLG since it had players flown in from around the world. Blizzcon too as a matter of fact. but there 8 T players and 4 Z players attended quarter finals were 3-2 half finals were 1-1 the only times T won vs Zerg is when they horribly outmatched them, i.e players like Maka and Loner. Maka making it to the round of 32, and Loner in the round of 16 in this GSL. Look at your posts before you mindlessly quote statistics. Is protoss the strongest race because it has the highest win% on ladder?(might have changed by now) no because those statistics dont matter. Only the highest level of play matters. And at the highest level of play Z won last GSL pre patch already, and now about half of the players advanced into the ro16 are Z | ||
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
I lost motivation to respond to you. It is quite obvious no matter how much evidence I give you, you'll still be talking out of your ass. It isn't enough that Terran still upholds the most positions overall of top 200 ladders worldwide. Like the frustrating part isn't that you don't know how TvZ works, it is you are just too ignorant to find out. You refute all the tournaments recorded for the current patch, and then bring up the GSL in your defense. I have to say that is quite hilarious, really. If you think all the players entered in the GSL ro64 are way better than the top foreigners then you obviously haven't watched an ounce of foreign competition. Therefor your point, although it didn't make any sense originally, just appears a lot more dumb then before. If you still want to only appeal to Koreans, then I have this for you. http://kr.battle.net/sc2/ko/blog/429671 I counted 74 Terrans and I skimmed the list. If statistics still don't matter, then care to share why you're amazing knowledge is above it? I'm interested in what can analyze the game better than match-oriented results in bulk. You must be a genius. :o | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On October 27 2010 15:00 endy wrote: I'm no expert regarding SC2, but when I'm looking at the liquibets for GSL ro16, so far we have TheWind (Z) VS ZergBong (Z) Idra (Z) VS Zenio (Z) NaDa (T) VS Leenock (Z) Check (Z) VS Rainbow (T) Kyrix (Z) VS Ensnare (T) so out of 10 players we have 7 zergs, 3 terran and 0 protoss, which is a little scary :/ the qualifiers were played pre 1.1.2, meaning that any zerg who got through had to be 2x better than most of the terrans and protosses who got through, it makes sense that a higher percentage of them are still in the tournament post patch. as for the other players, iron lost by doing fucking retarded builds, tester got knocked out somehow in the qualifiers, and genius and inca are still in it, those were the protosses who were good to begin with. their situation is not particularly suprising. for terrans, maka played poorly last night and mvp simply made more mistakes than zenio did, clide got knocked out in a tvt. boxer and nada are still in it as are rainbow and ensnare, theres no other terrans who are particularly deserving. this is not like last season when absolute trash terrans and protosses were knocking out good zergs, this is decent to good zergs, besides leenock who had a zvz last round anyway, outplaying their opponents. theres not random players rising up out of nowhere, those zergs are zergs who have been at the top of sc2 since the beta, minus zergbong who was a former sc1 pro anyway. | ||
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