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On October 27 2010 17:11 SCC-Faust wrote:"Statistics don't matter". I lost motivation to respond to you. It is quite obvious no matter how much evidence I give you, you'll still be talking out of your ass. It isn't enough that Terran still upholds the most positions overall of top 200 ladders worldwide. Like the frustrating part isn't that you don't know how TvZ works, it is you are just too ignorant to find out. You refute all the tournaments recorded for the current patch, and then bring up the GSL in your defense. I have to say that is quite hilarious, really. If you think all the players entered in the GSL ro64 are way better than the top foreigners then you obviously haven't watched an ounce of foreign competition. Therefor your point, although it didn't make any sense originally, just appears a lot more dumb then before. If you still want to only appeal to Koreans, then I have this for you. http://kr.battle.net/sc2/ko/blog/429671I counted 74 Terrans and I skimmed the list. If statistics still don't matter, then care to share why you're amazing knowledge is above it? I'm interested in what can analyze the game better than match-oriented results in bulk. You must be a genius. :o
if you want the game analyzed in bulk then why wasnt P nerfed? they had the highest win% on ladder. the game isnt supposed to be balanced around ease of use for the majority it's supposed to be balanced around potential. That potential is found at the very top. And that potential, that skill isnt shown through ladder statistics (progamers dont only ladder).
out of the top 25 50% are Z btw. why top 25? I don't know, because it fits my arguement. why top 200? because it fits yours.
And yes GSL players are generally better than foreigners. TLO, Jinro and hypro havent been doing too hot over there for example. And thats with living in a pro house a korean pro team to practice with.
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On October 27 2010 18:20 mustache wrote:
out of the top 25 50% are Z btw. why top 25? I don't know, because it fits my arguement. why top 200? because it fits yours.
Where is your source for your ridiculous Protoss win percentage claims?
And I see how it is now. I'm glad you finally admit you are going to just randomly cut out data until it makes you seem somewhat right, although in actuality you are very, very wrong. No where does anything you say even make sense. You're basically saying "Well George Bush would have won the election because he won Florida, but screw the 49 other states, because this fits my argument."
Then again I don't know who in this thread can take a 54-55 Terran seriously. Drop the ego and pseudo-knowledge you think you have and maybe you'll get better, but if you spend all your time crying about it you're just making yourself look like a terrible idiot, as you already have done so.
I'm probably getting trolled but I'm not sure.
Edit: Btw you're wrong with win percentages of Protoss and Blizzard balancing the top.
Read their updates and interviews sometime, they've referenced nerfing zealots for silver league.
Also I believe TvP has a 54% right now, which is in the Terran favor. I'll look for the articles when I care.
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On October 27 2010 18:29 SCC-Faust wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 18:20 mustache wrote:
out of the top 25 50% are Z btw. why top 25? I don't know, because it fits my arguement. why top 200? because it fits yours.
Where is your source for your ridiculous Protoss win percentage claims? And I see how it is now. I'm glad you finally admit you are going to just randomly cut out data until it makes you seem somewhat right, although in actuality you are very, very wrong. No where does anything you say even make sense. You're basically saying "Well George Bush would have won the election because he won Florida, but screw the 49 other states, because this fits my argument." Then again I don't know who in this thread can take a 54-55 Terran seriously. Drop the ego and pseudo-knowledge you think you have and maybe you'll get better, but if you spend all your time crying about it you're just making yourself look like a terrible idiot, as you already have done so. I'm probably getting trolled but I'm not sure. Edit: Btw you're wrong with win percentages of Protoss and Blizzard balancing the top. Read their updates and interviews sometime, they've referenced nerfing zealots for silver league. Also I believe TvP has a 54% right now, which is in the Terran favor. I'll look for the articles when I care.
I remeber a statistic blizzard release pre patch with the Toss win% being the highest
Nice ad hominem argument, but sadly all it proves is that you're losing. And you also keep insulting me which further lowers your status in this argument.
When did I say blizzard balances by the top players? nowhere. Where did I say that's what true balance is? In my post. Again that statistic was pre patch.
I guess we wont budge in eitehr direction so well have to wait and see. who knows maybe T has to adjust their playstyle and they jsut havent found the right one, just like Z did with muta/ling/baneling/drop.
EDIT:found it
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/761331#blog
toss has a >50%winrate in all matchups in all levels exept diamon pvt and platinum pvz
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Losing what? You clearly stated:
how people can deny Zergs(even before the patch) lategame advantage is beyond me. the only solution to this has been harassing the zergs eco to stop them getting to that point(which is already a flawed idea). Now roaches rape hellions even more + queen = no possible hellion harass anymore. Reapers? Too slow.
The Imbalance before the patch swung both ways, Z lategame and T early game. now you took out T early game imbalance so only the endgame zerg is seen. early game happens to be before late game so that why only T was percieved as imba.
I disagreed, refuted, posted statistics, and you're responses are cutting out data, ignoring the proof, and then telling me I'm "losing"? The only reason you won't "budge" is because you clearly have no idea what you're talking about in the first place. And you won't even think about what I'm typing because you apparently have some sort of superiority complex that your opinion is stronger than evidence, and you probably perceive that people reading this topic would somehow agree with you. Which is ludicrous, because most people are smart enough to understand a large scale of statistics is very, very relevant to this topic in regards to Terran being underpowered, which is what this is really all about.
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how is me using your statistics agaisnt you, by using them as i please any different than you using those same statistics to prove your point?
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On October 27 2010 19:22 mustache wrote:
how is me using your statistics agaisnt you, by using them as i please any different than you using those same statistics to prove your point?
This is about Terran being underpowered, you know, the reason why I responded to your post?
Everything I posted, statistics and otherwise, have said otherwise. What do you do?
You post statistics of the Protoss winrate? Lol? Then you proceed to post that you don't understand stats.
If I put four red balls and a blue ball in front of you and tell you to tell me how many balls there are, you're basically saying "4". You're totally ignoring a portion of the balls because it doesn't fall under what you want it to be. But there are "5". Just like there are "200" people in the "Top 200". You know, all of them. If you want to make a case for Terran being underpowered, you don't just ignore a random portion of the list just because you WANT to. You look at everything. You aren't even making a case, you never did.
I spend time posting what I believe and my proof and all you do is pick apart what I say with the dumbest shit that seems elementary school-esque to the point where you want me to explain to you WHY you can't remove a part of statistics, and why I can fully use them, you know, the way statistics are intended? I guess I'm done here. You can continue making yourself look like an idiot.
The only post that was even relevant to what you were trying to prove was your first, and the rest was flamebait trolling. My bad for even trying to talk to someone trashing the forums.
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What is the reasoning behind your top 200 being anything special though? you're missing the point. just because thers an official statistic with the top 200 doesnt mean thats a relevant number at all. if you can pick 200 arbitrarily out of the thousands of players online then why cant i pick only 25? And yes i pick apart your posts because i choose to actually anwer to your arguements instead of jsut flaming you.
GSL
+ Show Spoiler +A marine all in is hardly representative of balance, and cool suiciding 2 overlords didnt help either. Game 2 cool went for a 3 hatch when he couldnt even support 2 yet.
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Zerg is not OP! Zergs just raping now because of the buffs. Just wait until people find out how to fight it!
Just like the banshee rush. RAPED for 1-2 months, then stopped working.. lol
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Just LOL at this blog... Wrong on pretty much every point. I think it'd do everyone a lot of good if they didn't post any balance theories (cause that's all these are) for at least a month.
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On October 27 2010 15:26 mustache wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 14:50 lastmotion wrote:On October 27 2010 13:47 SCC-Faust wrote:I really don't understand how people can take OP seriously. He keeps posting all these "claims" of how he knows Zerg is "OP" and Terran is "UP" based on no more than his incompetence and skewed view of how he apparently watches games. Yet the ironic thing is statistics disagree with him, so there really is no more need for back and forth arguing with someone who refuses to listen to anyone besides himself. That and I believe Terran currently has the highest win percentage match-up, TvP, being favored 54%. Yet all the Terran players are expecting Protoss to get nerfed, and them being untouched. Smart thinkers, huh? A simple look at any game with common sense can tell you Terran isn't UP, but if you're not saavy with gameplay theory then you can always go to the Starcraft 2 forum and read the numbers and race statistics. Sure, time will tell if things are to change. But in the current state Terran is STILL in the lead with pretty much everything. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=164129http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163865But ya know, Terrans can refute it all they want. It is just they look so ridiculously dumb in doing so. I agree with your point but you have to kind of try to understand their point of view too. They've been getting to the higher leagues with the heavily broken ZvT, and when the matchup slowly shows signs of becoming a bit more fair, it's only natural to have the "don't nerf my race bro" attitude because they know that they won't remain in their leagues. It's also a tactic to over-exaggerate minor balance changes to shift the community's view on the matchup so that future nerfs don't happen to their race. Mark my words, if 1.13 gives Hydras a slight speed boost, they're going to scream Zerg OP Terran UP because Hydras dominate the matchup-kind of reasoning, even if no one still uses Hydras because they still remain sucky. how people can deny Zergs(even before the patch) lategame advantage is beyond me. the only solution to this has been harassing the zergs eco to stop them getting to that point(which is already a flawed idea). Now roaches rape hellions even more + queen = no possible hellion harass anymore. Reapers? Too slow. The Imbalance before the patch swung both ways, Z lategame and T early game. now you took out T early game imbalance so only the endgame zerg is seen. early game happens to be before late game so that why only T was percieved as imba. Solution? Nerf larva injection. and bring back reaper speed. a)change max larva b)change required energy c) reapers were already used less after the buildtime nerf, there was no need to nerf them into uselessness. with the roach range they will be even less of a threat but still viable if you have the control
except Zergs don't really have a late game advantage in ZvT, they just have a late game advantage if you look at the Zerg race comparatively because their mid-game and early-game was so weak. A 200/200 Terran mech army will beat an army full of Ultras.
It's like this: Every game for Z is a survival game to the late game mark where they can get ultras/broodlords out, and then from there, it's pretty even. People just assumed it was in Zerg's favor because of how strong Ultras/Broods were compared to its lower tier units. No, those late game units just make the matchup more fair, but STILL in T favor
T's early game imbalance was never removed. Supply before rax? T can expo earlier to adjust to the safe hatch-first build. Nerf of Reapers did reduce the options/strength of T early game but Terrans are still able to do marine all-in pushes, mid-game drops, early hellions, banshees, a number of strats to cripple Z early in the game
Why would larva injection need to be nerfed? It's fine as it is. If anything, MULE hasn't been nerfed yet. Oh Zerg can produce too many units? That's the type of race they are. Terrans are supposed to be produce fewer, but stronger units. But this isn't even the case because of reactors allows Terran to mass produce easily
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Typical fail whiner blog, just look at GSL2 and learn to play aggressively.
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On October 28 2010 04:55 teamsolid wrote:
Typical fail whiner blog, just look at GSL2 and learn to play aggressively.
ZOMG fruitdealer lost!!1111!!! Still going to be two zergs in the finals. And that doesn't invalidate how strong Z is vs T right now.
And statistics don't mean jack shit when it comes to balance.
Hilarious, you kids post ur smartass bullshit "omg fruitdealer lost!" but then if people last patch post "fruitdealer won GSL...he's a Zerg" you wouldn't be so quick to post your non witty comments.
Instead you go, "that doesn't mean anything!" so stfu hypocrits  just wait zvz finals!
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tons of TvZ coming up in the next ro16 matches tomorrow. Watch all the terrans win! yaaaaaa.
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I wonder if people bashing the author of the blog knows that he played mgl and did actually good ....
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On October 29 2010 01:40 noD wrote:
I wonder if people bashing the author of the blog knows that he played mgl and did actually good .... What does skill have to do with being a whining hypocrite?
OP made a thread telling zergs to stop whining and get better in 1.1
Now the OP is making a thread whining about terran nerfs in 1.2
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France2061 Posts
On October 29 2010 01:40 noD wrote:
I wonder if people bashing the author of the blog knows that he played mgl and did actually good ....
The author of the blog is also quite e-famous for constant whining in the C&C community so this is par for the course
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On October 29 2010 01:40 noD wrote:
I wonder if people bashing the author of the blog knows that he played mgl and did actually good ....
so if you're pretty good, it excuses you from making biased remarks and raging at people who point out that he is receiving the treatment he handed out in the past?
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I am baffled by the lack of protoss players. I refuse to accept that the reason is that there are no talented ones to begin with. No, it's statistically impossible. AFAIK, there are more protoss players than Zerg or Terran.
Sure, there wasn't many legendary protoss switching like Nada and Boxer, but even with that, it just feeling wrong. Not sure if it is because of patch or because the way Blizzard made protoss in this game. I.e. can roflstomp the opponent, or can die very easily as well. The units are very expensive and if you do a mistake with them, it will be a very expensive one. As opposed to cheaper armies of terran and zerg, and thus, allowing to lose more of them without as much hurt.
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EPT
