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SolaR-
United States2685 Posts
As a more casual poster, this sometimes comes as intimidating, and really I cannot compete, as I really don't have the time to work that hard on my posts. I am not saying that as a bad thing, but there is obviously an advantage in the argument if you are actually sitting at a computer with free time on your hands to formulate a thorough argument. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
No, you don't. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15686 Posts
 I promise I'll behave, Kwark ;_; | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
Even more telling of the state of affairs here is how while Trump is a complete buffoon and I have no idea how a sane person can even consider voting for it, it's actually the anti-Trump folks who are seriously transgressing all boundaries of useful discussions. The whole idea that just shouting "RACISM RACISM" loud and often enough makes a point is really symptomatic to how certain people thing discussion should look these days. I don't even understand why those stern fighters against racism and social injustice in general waste their time on TL, when such nice and convenient outlets for their righteous rage exists, such as SRS. I have absolutely zero faith that anything's gonna change as long as this place is run by people like Kwark, but whatever. It was fun while it lasted, now US politics has joined the ranks of religion, gender and Ukraine as topics that can never ever be discussed on TL and at least it's now known openly and people can just move on to shitpost another topic into oblivion, one by one. | ||
Falling
Canada11349 Posts
The problem isn't quite so simple as outright flaming- that's very easy to moderate. It's far more insidious, but the effect is we have stopped having a discussion, and instead a critical mass from the different camps are just lobbing snowballs at each other. It's the passive-aggressive, barely contained contempt for each others positions that is near impossible to moderate, whether the poster is pro-Trump, anti-Trump, pro-Bernie, anti-Bernie, pro-Hillary, or anti-Hillary. It would be nice if there was an enforced cross-examine period, where people must seek to understand each others positions before proceeding to pick them apart (and in turn that the cross-examine must be answered). But any sorts of strictures (including post length) doesn't really tackle the attitude issue, and really the thread has never been a formal debate, but rather a free wheeling discussion. That versatility has been it's strength in the past, but this has been an ongoing problem for some time, but I don't really see how it could have been corrected then or now. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
A thread on a discussion forum will never be a "formal debate", lol, I don't really know what you are trying to do with that comment. The "Trump is bad, no Hillary is worse" part of the thread is pretty boring, I concede that. But there were several subthreads going on that were more interesting. The "should we kill innocent people" debate could have been good, if it weren't for the people who came in shouting that we definitely shouldn't and even discussing that is outrageous - and that includes some mods (frankly don't remember how many and can't be bothered to look it up). Or the part about weather Trump was justified in rejecting a judge with mexican heritage could have had some content if it weren't for people shouting "racism, racism, racism is baaaaad" all over the place. And that's kinda the day-to-day state of this thread for some time already. But I just can't see ever TL staff warning and banning the ones who are truly disruptive, because they are on the "right side", because it's exactly the opposing viewpoint that you guys want to not hear. And that has been the problem of every "sensitive" discussion here so far. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
Thus I think the thread itself is no problem, and I think it's important to have a US Politics thread. But it needs some serious moderation which actually punishes repeated low-quality posting. And the standard for "low-quality posting" must be high again. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
More willingness to recognize a view as plausible, but one that one disagrees with, would also help. though even for that, i'd say there are some justified exceptions. imho, making clear what one asserts as one's own opinion, and what one considers to be fact, can also help. too often people are railling against a perceived view that some people in the world/internet have, rather than the view actually being stated by the people in thread. The lack of a universally accepted finder of fact to help arbitrate things is an inevitable problem that I see no way around. | ||
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farvacola
United States18826 Posts
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
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Falling
Canada11349 Posts
A thread on a discussion forum will never be a "formal debate", lol, I don't really know what you are trying to do with that comment. It will never be a formal debate, but there is something to be learned from that part of it- actually establishing what the other side believes before picking it apart. This goes to your comment about one side jumping straight into 'racisim', 'racism' comment. It's not a discussion because people are talking past each other, ignoring counter-evidence, etc. | ||
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KwarK
United States42656 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23221 Posts
On June 13 2016 06:25 KwarK wrote: If the US Politics Megathread were not an internet discussion it would not be a friendly discussion or even a hostile debate, it would be a fistfight. It's that which I'm hoping we'll work out how to fix. That's how it would get solved where I grew up. Winner of the fistfight is right, until they lose or don't want to fight over it. I'd subscribe for a lifetime membership prepaid to TL+ to see people from the politics thread in any sort of fisticuffs TL could organize. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15686 Posts
On June 13 2016 11:05 xDaunt wrote: I think Kwark's ban of Testie in the Orlando shooter thread shows all that I need to see about why the US Politics Thread was closed. This isn't about a new, worse tone or lessened level of discourse. Let me be blunt: the level of discourse has always been shitty from various participants. And the fact that Kwark is the one who shut the thread down is incredibly ironic, because he, of all of the mods who posted in that thread, did the most to create precisely the environment about which he now complains. I've seen Kwark say more insulting things to TL posters than any other TL mod. I prefer the perspective I've seen on other forums, where mods are "above the fray" and don't get into the mud with other posters. While somewhat unfair, I think it is the burden a mod should bare. The main reason is for things like this. Kwark ends up coming off as partial and unfair in light of how he's behaved in the thread itself. | ||
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SolaR-
United States2685 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On June 13 2016 11:10 SolaR- wrote: That ban of Testie is absolutely ridiculous. Frankly, it makes me not even want to post here anymore. I wasn't going to say anything until I saw that ban. But it was just too much to ignore. | ||
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KwarK
United States42656 Posts
On June 13 2016 11:18 xDaunt wrote: I wasn't going to say anything until I saw that ban. But it was just too much to ignore. I did not lock the topic for the exact same shit that was ruining it to go to every other general forum topic. When it is reopened that will be the place for that shit. Not every tragedy needs to be politicized immediately. | ||
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SolaR-
United States2685 Posts
On June 13 2016 11:18 xDaunt wrote: I wasn't going to say anything until I saw that ban. But it was just too much to ignore. I am glad you did. I didn't think about this earlier, but you're right. Kwark has often spoke in a very bullyish tone in the mega thread. The typical "my opinion is better than your opinion attitude, and if you disagree with me you're either ignorant or complete piece of shit". I don't know if that is true, but that is generally vibe that I feel from him. Kwark, you can correct me if I am wrong. However, seeing that others have a similar perception of you and the recently ban of Testie, I feel forced to voice my opinion on all of this as well. | ||
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