[G] 5 Hatch Before Gas ZvP - Page 4
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JMave
Singapore1802 Posts
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Miwyfe
England101 Posts
As you know, the build loses air control. Therefore no scouting at critical times. And no way of stopping reaver or dt drops. A dt drop will kill one of your bases guaranteed. Know your weaknesses. However, I am talking about the top level of skill here. This build is very powerful up to a point and I really like it. It utilizes the power of the zerg macro mechanics to the full which is deliciously evil. Haha thanks for the guide. | ||
LRM)nOoNe
United States231 Posts
On June 08 2011 21:58 Miwyfe wrote: ghrur, krndandaman, almond and Jmave are correct. As you know, the build loses air control. Therefore no scouting at critical times. And no way of stopping reaver or dt drops. A dt drop will kill one of your bases guaranteed. Know your weaknesses. However, I am talking about the top level of skill here. This build is very powerful up to a point and I really like it. It utilizes the power of the zerg macro mechanics to the full which is deliciously evil. Haha thanks for the guide. You're completely wrong, I don't know how else to say it. I've addressed scouting and I've addressed drops, neither are an issue if you play properly. On June 08 2011 10:28 JMave wrote: What about sair-reaver openings? Since your mid-game army mass is delayed and you wouldn't be able to scout stargate count, then how do you counter the harassment? It's not delayed, it actually comes out faster. I've already addressed how to counter sair-reaver in the first post. | ||
krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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Navane
Netherlands2727 Posts
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LRM)nOoNe
United States231 Posts
On June 09 2011 06:01 Navane wrote: I'd say because it's less versatile? Once you get your 5th hatch before gas, you're pretty much forced to take certain steps. I can imagine Movie for instance to have a death trap ready once he sees a Z heading this direction. 3hspire5hhydra can take so much more directions. It's really protoss that needs to be versatile against this build. You are absolutely going to get a good economy and you are absolutely going to have a lot of hydras early, it's up to protoss to change his plan to deal with this. With that being said, because you are not doing anything regarding air, protoss does not need to account for it. He does not need to spend money on cannons, archons, or worry about muta backstabs. So in that sense, yes, 5h no gas is less versatile, but not in a death-inducing way. It just gives protoss more room to breathe and more money to spend elsewhere. On June 09 2011 05:51 krndandaman wrote: any reason that koreans / progamers are not using this build? it looks pretty solid no matter how you look at it. and it's been around for a long time so... i'd imagine at least one korean knows about this build. Not sure, I can say that some of the new maps are not good for this build. Aztec, for example, is difficult because you can't easily secure a fourth gas assuming you took the nearby third. You can take the expo immediately down your ramp, but it feels really unsafe to me. | ||
Miwyfe
England101 Posts
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Liquid`Sheth
United States2095 Posts
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Game
3191 Posts
On June 11 2011 01:47 Sheth wrote: Yep this was my build on Tau at least xD! And many variances on other maps, such as Othello and Longinus. ^^ | ||
Miwyfe
England101 Posts
This build doesnt threaten very many options compared to standard builds and that makes it less powerful I believe. As soon as Zerg gets gas and a lair, the Protoss must be preparing for threats of mutas, lurkers, and drops. However this build pushes back those threats by not getting a lair upgrade for a long time. The new threat that this build gains is a sustained hydra ling pump from 5 hatches at an earlier timing than standard. This is definately very scary but I think that earlier air threats and tech threats are more dangerous to a Protoss, and that is why it is not used by the pros. The later lair gives the Protoss player knowledge that hydras and lings are the only threat for the midterm future. The Protoss player is still threatening everything he normally would be (and the zerg must prepare for to be safe) while eliminating many of the usual Zerg threats he himself would normally have to prepare for. I think that overall the new threats you gain are not as dangerous as the threats that are now excluded from you, but its still a good build. The corners a Protoss could cut accordingly (delayed cannon in the main, delayed sairs, delayed dragoons, no need to hang back against drops, early 2nd forge maybe, delayed archons, delayed observers) could all lead to a very powerful pre lurker timing attack of upgraded zealots and high templar, maybe a reaver too. That is a pretty scary timing attack for you to face, even with a 5 hatchery sustained hydra pump. After you survive, Protoss will be ahead in upgrades for a good while too, providing more opportunities for later timing attacks, after taking a third base. There is also a big advantage of using non standard builds regularly which is familiarity. Because you are using this build alot you get the timings nice and crisp while the opponent will not be comfortable in the same way. That is a great advantage and should not be overlooked. Having your own style can really help. Goodluck with your future games using this build, hope it continues to bring more success. | ||
shinjin
United States398 Posts
On June 13 2011 01:16 Miwyfe wrote: Here is a better response; This build doesnt threaten very many options compared to standard builds and that makes it less powerful I believe. As soon as Zerg gets gas and a lair, the Protoss must be preparing for threats of mutas, lurkers, and drops. However this build pushes back those threats by not getting a lair upgrade for a long time. The new threat that this build gains is a sustained hydra ling pump from 5 hatches at an earlier timing than standard. This is definately very scary but I think that earlier air threats and tech threats are more dangerous to a Protoss, and that is why it is not used by the pros. The later lair gives the Protoss player knowledge that hydras and lings are the only threat for the midterm future. The Protoss player is still threatening everything he normally would be (and the zerg must prepare for to be safe) while eliminating many of the usual Zerg threats he himself would normally have to prepare for. I think that overall the new threats you gain are not as dangerous as the threats that are now excluded from you, but its still a good build. The corners a Protoss could cut accordingly (delayed cannon in the main, delayed sairs, delayed dragoons, no need to hang back against drops, early 2nd forge maybe, delayed archons, delayed observers) could all lead to a very powerful pre lurker timing attack of upgraded zealots and high templar, maybe a reaver too. That is a pretty scary timing attack for you to face, even with a 5 hatchery sustained hydra pump. After you survive, Protoss will be ahead in upgrades for a good while too, providing more opportunities for later timing attacks, after taking a third base. There is also a big advantage of using non standard builds regularly which is familiarity. Because you are using this build alot you get the timings nice and crisp while the opponent will not be comfortable in the same way. That is a great advantage and should not be overlooked. Having your own style can really help. Goodluck with your future games using this build, hope it continues to bring more success. a very good analysis, i actually need to learn the exact timings for all of those protoss timings when does one usually build a cannon in main, start dragoons, and make observers | ||
LRM)nOoNe
United States231 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6432 Posts
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G.M.T
Romania27 Posts
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renzy
Canada781 Posts
Edit: To be more specific, a cheeser who will never make it past D+. LOL! | ||
krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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kolona
Ukraine16 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
LightningStrike
United States14276 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On July 06 2011 05:35 LightningStrike wrote: Very intresting build i just swap to zerg like 2 weeks ago and i might try this build. I tired of using 3 base spire 5 hatch hydra since it so weak in econ unless you double expo with the 4th and 5th hatchery but otherwise this build looks alot better then standred 3 basespire 5 hatch hydra play due to better econ even though no air control at all.Thank you for making this guide for us fellow zergs to use. This makes no sense. | ||
XXGeneration
United States625 Posts
What he means is that instead of putting the 4th and 5th hatches as macro hatches at your natural and third, you double expo. Which is stupid. | ||
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