Cool build, but i think a good P can get an advantyge from making a forge expand 2 gate 7 zeal no speed with stargate to foce sunkens, while he taks his third.
Look day[9] daily number 3 or 4 (bisu vs jaedong on destination), and you will see what i mean :D.

koreasilver

9109 Posts

September 15 2011 15:35 GMT

#102

I really don't see how that timing would work, seeing as how the unit building timings for this build would be earlier than 3hatch lair -> 5hatch.

MrLlama

United States454 Posts

September 16 2011 02:35 GMT

#103

I never played starcraft 1 before

I used your build

and beat a korean twice.

I love you

TheGlassface

United States612 Posts

September 16 2011 20:01 GMT

#104

Yea...wow. This build puts so much cash in your hands it almost feels like you can mess up preeeeety damn badly and still faceroll your way through most of the time...assuming even skill of course

gu-val

59 Posts

September 16 2011 21:31 GMT

#105

I think I've found out how to counter this build. Due to high eco nature of 5h gas strategy, Z cant afford early game map control (no ling speed) and no runby can be executed (at least on certain maps). Thus, P skimps on defence and doesnt make stargate/mass zealots too (which is exactly what he does vs modern 3 hatch spire), goes directly for his templar, dragoon and zealot army from 6-7 gates. I dont see how Z can fight this without mutas, and there seems to be no way of taking 4th.

All of 5 provided reps are stargate first builds. I guess 5h gas build was initially intended to counter stargate opening, and any non-stargate opening is nice to counter 5h gas. 4gate speedzeal is plain stupid strategy, but fast arhives look fine. Something like citadel, +2 gates, archives, +3 gates is the most obvious way to fight hydra-lurker-ling army. Probably strategy vs non-stargate openings should be more clarified.

Game

3191 Posts

September 17 2011 02:48 GMT

#106

On September 17 2011 06:31 gu-val wrote:
I think I've found out how to counter this build. Due to high eco nature of 5h gas strategy, Z cant afford early game map control (no ling speed) and no runby can be executed (at least on certain maps). Thus, P skimps on defence and doesnt make stargate/mass zealots too (which is exactly what he does vs modern 3 hatch spire), goes directly for his templar, dragoon and zealot army from 6-7 gates. I dont see how Z can fight this without mutas, and there seems to be no way of taking 4th.

All of 5 provided reps are stargate first builds. I guess 5h gas build was initially intended to counter stargate opening, and any non-stargate opening is nice to counter 5h gas. 4gate speedzeal is plain stupid strategy, but fast arhives look fine. Something like citadel, +2 gates, archives, +3 gates is the most obvious way to fight hydra-lurker-ling army. Probably strategy vs non-stargate openings should be more clarified.

Beating what you suggested: Control.
Keep 12 hydras in 2 different locations to snipe all the temps in the back. If they push slow, it's too slow.

gu-val

59 Posts

September 17 2011 07:41 GMT

#107

HT sniping doesnt seem like a solution vs non-stargate openings anyway, this is what you do in every game to prevent P from melting your army and isnt strategy-based but rather a micro technique. Also, P might not even push with his army but rather regain map control to take 3th and 4th.

LRM)nOoNe

United States231 Posts

September 17 2011 15:32 GMT

#108

On September 17 2011 16:41 gu-val wrote:
HT sniping doesnt seem like a solution vs non-stargate openings anyway, this is what you do in every game to prevent P from melting your army and isnt strategy-based but rather a micro technique. Also, P might not even push with his army but rather regain map control to take 3th and 4th.

No, actually it is strategy based. Normally you'd have mutalisks to do this for you. With this build, you have such a surplus of hydras that it is acceptable to sack 12 or so to kill the majority of his templar.

You can't gain map control without... being out on the map. If you're out on the map, your templar are vulnerable to hydra flanks. If you lose those templar the game ends immediately.

Now what IS perfectly viable is using those templar to take a fast third.

gu-val

59 Posts

September 17 2011 18:51 GMT

#109

Maybe something is wrong with my macro, but I dont have any hydra surplus vs a build I described above. Storm tech is much faster than my lurkers come out and by this point, P has unreasonable amount of HTs so killing 2 or 3 with hydra pack wont make much difference. What I would like to know, are there any build adjustments so that I'm no longer pushed back by P's midgame army (which is slighty earlier too because of non-stargate opening).

LRM)nOoNe

United States231 Posts

September 17 2011 23:34 GMT

#110

You're doing something wrong then, post a replay.

docvoc

United States5491 Posts

September 18 2011 03:58 GMT

#111

how does toss beat this, i played against this earlier today, do we just have to 4 gate all the damn time? i like the FE a lot, but it seems like with the toss winrate, nothing we do really wins much, is there any way to stop this other than pyloning the 3rd?

Phyrigian

New Zealand1332 Posts

September 18 2011 04:16 GMT

#112

--- Nuked ---

gu-val

59 Posts

September 18 2011 08:29 GMT

#113

Cant find a replay unfortunately, but will post it once I've encountered this build again (no stargate, citadel into templar tech).

but it seems like with the toss winrate, nothing we do really wins much

I believe Protoss have 80% winrate in ongoing korean leagues in PvZ and modern zergs are forced to 3h hydra all-in these days due to strategic advantage and map handicaps.

zlgrube

United States19 Posts

September 18 2011 16:02 GMT

#114

STOP PLAYING BROODWAR AND COME TO STARCRAFT TWOOOOOO

User was temp banned for this post.

ArvickHero

10387 Posts

September 19 2011 02:06 GMT

#115

Is there a replay of any good Corsair/Reaver users against this strat? I'm curious as to how well this build would fare against the Zealot/Reaver timing attack that's used as a common followup in the pro-scene

also PvZ winrate 80% in Korean leagues wtf? Bisu might have a 80-90% win ration, but the rest of the Protosses are doing somewhat poorly in PvZ nowadays -_-

gu-val

59 Posts

September 19 2011 05:34 GMT

#116

TLPD - BW Korean, show games only with vods, statistic from 01 august - 17 september:

(P)JangBi > (Z)n.Die_soO 3:0
(P)By.Sun > (Z)Killer 1:0
(P)By.Sun > (Z)Jaedong 1:0
(P)Stats > (Z)n.Die_soO 1:0
(P)By.Sun > (Z)Action 1:0
(P)Bisu > (Z)Crazy-Hydra 1:0
(P)Jaehoon > (Z)Where 1:0
(P)Tyson < (Z)Where 0:1
(P)sHy < (Z)ZerO 0:1
(P)sHy > (Z)Neo.G_Soulkey 1:0
(P)Jaehoon > (Z)ggaemo 1:0
(P)Brave > (Z)ggaemo 1:0
(P)JangBi < (Z)hyvaa 0:1
(P)Grape < (Z)hyvaa 0:1

12 : 4 or 75% pvz, might be too little but I cant find more korean games in last 1-2 months.

[Cute]Pjnkje

Vietnam50 Posts

September 19 2011 08:26 GMT

#117

Hmmm, so what will you do when you face this build yourself, DeuS

Phyrigian

New Zealand1332 Posts

September 19 2011 08:40 GMT

#118

--- Nuked ---

Game

3191 Posts

September 19 2011 08:51 GMT

#119

On September 19 2011 17:26 [Cute]Pjnkje wrote:
Hmmm, so what will you do when you face this build yourself, DeuS

http://gosugamers.net/starcraft/replays/15744
The hardest counter to it.

ArvickHero

10387 Posts

September 19 2011 17:57 GMT

#120

On September 19 2011 14:34 gu-val wrote:
TLPD - BW Korean, show games only with vods, statistic from 01 august - 17 september:

(P)JangBi > (Z)n.Die_soO 3:0
(P)By.Sun > (Z)Killer 1:0
(P)By.Sun > (Z)Jaedong 1:0
(P)Stats > (Z)n.Die_soO 1:0
(P)By.Sun > (Z)Action 1:0
(P)Bisu > (Z)Crazy-Hydra 1:0
(P)Jaehoon > (Z)Where 1:0
(P)Tyson < (Z)Where 0:1
(P)sHy < (Z)ZerO 0:1
(P)sHy > (Z)Neo.G_Soulkey 1:0
(P)Jaehoon > (Z)ggaemo 1:0
(P)Brave > (Z)ggaemo 1:0
(P)JangBi < (Z)hyvaa 0:1
(P)Grape < (Z)hyvaa 0:1

12 : 4 or 75% pvz, might be too little but I cant find more korean games in last 1-2 months.

because 1 month of games being barely played and Protosses mostly outclassing their opponents is indicative of current PvZ balance. If anything, balance should be looked at least 3 months at a time, but its a huge hassle that TLPD doesn't let you sort all games into specific matchups :l