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JMave
Singapore1803 Posts
when is a good time to move into lurkers? i am assuming that you will need to drone up a little more after your initial mid-game army before you can do that and to accumulate gas as well. is it possible to squeeze in your spire during your second drone phase and move into mutas for ht sniping? | ||
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ghrur
United States3786 Posts
On June 11 2011 01:51 Game wrote: And many variances on other maps, such as Othello and Longinus. ^^ That reminds me, I've seen you use this on CB by taking a min-only third noOne. How do you deal with the lower mineral-gas ratio income? | ||
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DarkSaieden
South Africa254 Posts
On July 06 2011 10:44 JMave wrote: hmm you didn't really talk much about lurker timing so i have a few questions. when is a good time to move into lurkers? i am assuming that you will need to drone up a little more after your initial mid-game army before you can do that and to accumulate gas as well. is it possible to squeeze in your spire during your second drone phase and move into mutas for ht sniping? he says in the guide that lurkers come at a critical time, after upgrading as range finishes. this imo, is the timing when toss has just enough storms and troops to ram through virtually any hydra mass. lurks in this build come MUCH earlier than in 3h spire. i dont you'll have the minerals for any muta before 5 bases, as its important to reinforce with hydra/lurk/ling constantly.. if the toss ball takes the map, it immediately becomes an uphill battle and by the time mutas come, their relative strength is too weak for the price of giving up meaty reinforcements, since this build goes almost straight into 'lategame mentality' from hydra/lurk. i think the one of the hardest mental shifts (for me anyway) is that toss taking 3rd gas is not the 'game ender' it is like in the standard spire first build. | ||
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Mortician
Bulgaria2332 Posts
On July 08 2011 00:45 DarkSaieden wrote: he says in the guide that lurkers come at a critical time, after upgrading as range finishes. this imo, is the timing when toss has just enough storms and troops to ram through virtually any hydra mass. lurks in this build come MUCH earlier than in 3h spire. i dont you'll have the minerals for any muta before 5 bases, as its important to reinforce with hydra/lurk/ling constantly.. if the toss ball takes the map, it immediately becomes an uphill battle and by the time mutas come, their relative strength is too weak for the price of giving up meaty reinforcements, since this build goes almost straight into 'lategame mentality' from hydra/lurk. i think the one of the hardest mental shifts (for me anyway) is that toss taking 3rd gas is not the 'game ender' it is like in the standard spire first build. Around the time toss is taking a third you should already have lurkers out and be trying to either contan him or kill his third, with containing being the better option in 90% of the cases, because you can get a forth base and while reinforcing the contain tech to t3 with ultras and defilers. | ||
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LRM)nOoNe
United States231 Posts
On July 08 2011 03:18 Mortician wrote: Around the time toss is taking a third you should already have lurkers out and be trying to either contan him or kill his third This is not true, sometimes lurkers do not come out in time. On July 06 2011 11:48 ghrur wrote: That reminds me, I've seen you use this on CB by taking a min-only third noOne. How do you deal with the lower mineral-gas ratio income? If I were to play on CB today, I don't think I'd take the mineral only. The third gas is really crucial for getting enough lurkers out. On maps with mineral only bases, I add on two more hatches for more lings (3 including the expo hatch). On July 06 2011 10:44 JMave wrote: hmm you didn't really talk much about lurker timing so i have a few questions. when is a good time to move into lurkers? i am assuming that you will need to drone up a little more after your initial mid-game army before you can do that and to accumulate gas as well. is it possible to squeeze in your spire during your second drone phase and move into mutas for ht sniping? Speed->Range->Lurkers You don't need to drone up before going lurkers. Most of the time, lurkers are what allow you to make another round or two of drones. I have not tried getting a spire for templar sniping, I greatly prefer having a large amount of lurkers. | ||
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DarkSaieden
South Africa254 Posts
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ghrur
United States3786 Posts
On July 08 2011 03:40 DeuS wrote: If I were to play on CB today, I don't think I'd take the mineral only. The third gas is really crucial for getting enough lurkers out. On maps with mineral only bases, I add on two more hatches for more lings (3 including the expo hatch). So would you recommend not using this on a map like CB or taking the 3/6/9/12 bases instead? On July 08 2011 06:53 DarkSaieden wrote: something i'd like to point out here is that this build really needs a close 3rd, but at same time, that means toss will have a close third. if you attack to early (ie few/no probes) you giving up position which means you could lose your army for a few hundred minerals. a wise toss will attack and likely just roll through your bases. fighting spirit and destination are good examples where this is quite possible ??? I don't really understand the bolded part. | ||
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beenizzle
United States141 Posts
 thanks game and noone for this 1 | ||
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DarkSaieden
South Africa254 Posts
say for example toss is busy trying to take his 3rd on fighting spirit, and you still only have 2 groups hydras out, about a third at home for sairs. if you try quickly take it out, its possible that toss's army sitting in his nat will trap you between itself and the ramp because the distance is so close. u will lose map control and most, if not all, of your army, and toss would lose a nexus and a pylon or 2, which he will rebuild as he marches to contain you. by the time you have a bigger army and he's made a heavy investment in his third, toss will have cannons above the ramp, making it virtually suicide without swarm, and losing your army now would put you in even worse position than before as temps will be loaded. so, the safest response is to simply take a 4th gas yourself and keep killing his army and attempts at a fourth gas. | ||
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ghrur
United States3786 Posts
On July 09 2011 19:11 DarkSaieden wrote: say for example toss is busy trying to take his 3rd on fighting spirit, and you still only have 2 groups hydras out, about a third at home for sairs. if you try quickly take it out, its possible that toss's army sitting in his nat will trap you between itself and the ramp because the distance is so close. u will lose map control and most, if not all, of your army, and toss would lose a nexus and a pylon or 2, which he will rebuild as he marches to contain you. by the time you have a bigger army and he's made a heavy investment in his third, toss will have cannons above the ramp, making it virtually suicide without swarm, and losing your army now would put you in even worse position than before as temps will be loaded. so, the safest response is to simply take a 4th gas yourself and keep killing his army and attempts at a fourth gas. Oh, I see. Well, you wouldn't necessarily need your whole army to shut down a warping third. I often see zergs just send like 6-12 lings to go shut it down. Besides, toss can't really trap you at the third unless he attacks from both ramps of the third, which would mean splitting his army up in the first place and possibly getting it killed one half at a time. I mean, normally, if you see his army come up, just run down the ramp. I think the safest response will depend on scouting. If you can catch their army out of position and shut down a third, why not do it. :/ | ||
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kolona
Ukraine16 Posts
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[Cute]Pjnkje
Vietnam50 Posts
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DarkSaieden
South Africa254 Posts
On July 30 2011 12:14 [Cute]Pjnkje wrote: I've tried this build about 7-8 times and I really like it, the only problem I faced it's mass corsair/reaver -> 3rd in island -> mass ground. I even have no idea about lurker timing vs sair/reaver, should I get them? And how about the 4th timing vs reaver compare with vs zeal? Thanks take an early 4th and add an extra hatch or 2, he cant do any real ground damage till shuttle speed finishes without risking a hydra flank. still get the tech right after range, but only make a few to defend your bases/mineral lines from pesky zeal runs. get burrow for haxlings and hydra ambushes. the late game set up will be you getting up your 5th while denying toss's 4th, you could try something fancy to break his 3rd or main or simply keep killing his army till he mines out. when overlord speed finishes (should be at the same time as hydra range) poke his nat with ~2 groups of hydra while pumping more for defence just in case. if toss severly overspent on sairs its a crippling blow, or else just try snipe whatevr, but be wary of storms. | ||
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[Cute]Pjnkje
Vietnam50 Posts
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=43215 According to the OP Vs Early Stargate with mass Corsair into Templar Tech Make ~18 hydralisks to hold off the corsairs. Send zerglings to all the possible places for him to expand. If you see he isn't expanding, expect a mass zealot followup. If he does expand, add on a few more hydralisks and take a fourth base. Alternatively, you can try to mass hydralisks and shut down the third. However, if you lose your hydralisks to storm, your overlords will be exposed. I have no idea about sunken number or how to defend my ovies when my hydras are busy dealing with zeal+DT. | ||
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Game
3191 Posts
On August 14 2011 11:21 [Cute]Pjnkje wrote: Thanks so much. I have another problem when he go sair/DT and attack my third with zeal/DT/sair combo, like this http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=43215 According to the OP I have no idea about sunken number or how to defend my ovies when my hydras are busy dealing with zeal+DT. Didn't watch the replay, but why would your overlords not be at the bases the zeal and DTs are attacking? That doesn't make sense whatsoever. Not to mention, losing 2-3 ovies is clearly not as dire as losing a base to ground units. The entire premise of your post is lackluster or not well thought out. If you feel the need to be uber safe and protect overlords at all costs, I suggest just placing 3 sunkens at each base and making a later strong midgame economy. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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Mortician
Bulgaria2332 Posts
On August 14 2011 22:15 krndandaman wrote: i think hes talking about a situation where a protoss attacks with mass zealots with some dt's/sair. the hydras all focus on the zealots while the corsairs kill the overlords allowing the dt's to wreak havok. imo, add a spore if you see it coming. Not necessary, if you see it coming flood hydras and make 1-2 sunks with sim city, use hydras to kill the sairs, they die fast and/or use sunkens to target DTs | ||
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gu-val
59 Posts
Probably, switch to lings earlier and stockpile gas for lurkers? | ||
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FyRe_DragOn
Canada2056 Posts
On September 12 2011 03:04 gu-val wrote: Should this be used on maps with mineral-only third? Seems like you cant afford lurker switch with only 2 gaz, and once one've gained map control with your hydras, he must seek another way to stop Protoss' midgame push without lurkers, or lose map control AND the hydra army. Probably, switch to lings earlier and stockpile gas for lurkers? no, dont deny yourself a 3rd gas with any zvp strategy, they all need it | ||
Harem
United States11390 Posts
On September 12 2011 10:33 FyRe_DragOn wrote: no, dont deny yourself a 3rd gas with any zvp strategy, they all need it How come you took mineral only third vs Astro in ISL? Just curious. | ||
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