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Introduction
Hello! I am LRM)nOoNe on iccup. I have been using this build exclusively in zvp for the past four or five months and have had great success with it. It was introduced to me by LRM)Game, but since then I have made a few tweaks to it.
The build focuses on early hatcheries and drones. Instead of using spire tech to deal with protoss's midgame options, you rely on hydralisks. You will eventually have a hydralurk army. You will have absolutely no air control with this build. Your midgame economy will be much stronger than normal. On maps with distant thirds, this build will not work.
Build Order
9 Overlord
9 Spawning Pool
11 Hatchery, scout
10 Six Zerglings
13 Hatchery
18 Overlord
18 Hatchery
27 Hatchery
26 Extractor
25 Extractor
24 Two Overlords
@50 Gas - Hydralisk Den
@100 Gas - Lair
General Notes:
This build only works vs forge expanding protosses.
Don't put your third hatch down until you scout protoss. Larva will build up, but it is necessary to prevent deaths versus 2gate.
All foods not listed are drones. If you don't build up your economy early, you won't be able to produce out of all five hatcheries.
Versus early pressure, such as three zealots, you will need to add on four more zerglings.
You do not get early ling speed. Wait at least until lurkers are out.
Just because you can make hydras doesn't mean you should. Economy is the most important part of this build.
Hydralisk upgrades go: Speed->Range->Lurkers. You CAN NOT fall behind on these upgrades. Lurkers come out at a very key time.
Differences From Normal Play:
You do not have a spire, meaning protoss has complete vision of what you are doing. This means that protoss does not need to build defense versus the threat of mutalisks. Also, once there is a threat of drops from the protoss, you should leave hydralisks at each base to defend until you get a spire.
You do not have ling speed unless you open with a build that gets it. This means it's impossible to completely shut down scouting versus a protoss player with good probe control. This also means that the threat of a ling allin is small.
Your midgame army will be larger than normal. However, you do not have the luxury of templar sniping with mutalisks. You must tactically position your hydralisks behind a moving protoss army to snipe templar. You can not engage a protoss army that has a large number of templar in it.
Reacting to Scouting Information
You should have an overlord in protoss's main. On two player maps, it is unnecessary to drone scout. On three or four player maps, you need to drone scout to avoid stupid deaths versus 1base protoss.
Vs Early Stargate into Templar Tech:
Make only a few hydralisks to hold off the corsairs. Making more does not serve any purpose, as early attacks will be shut down by storm. Make a few more rounds of drones and then start hydralisk production.
Vs Early Stargate into Templar Tech with a fast third
You have two options here. You can flood with hydralisks to try to prevent the third, or you can ignore it and quickly take a fourth. Only try to bust it if his zealot count is low and you are confident in your storm dodging.
Vs Early Stargate with mass Corsair into Templar Tech
Make ~18 hydralisks to hold off the corsairs. Send zerglings to all the possible places for him to expand. If you see he isn't expanding, expect a mass zealot followup. If he does expand, add on a few more hydralisks and take a fourth base. Alternatively, you can try to mass hydralisks and shut down the third. However, if you lose your hydralisks to storm, your overlords will be exposed.
Vs Early Stargate into 2-4 Gate Zealot
You will most likely need to build 1-2 sunks at your natural and third versus this build. Flood hydralisks as soon as your hydralisk den finishes. Once you have held off his attack and have a comfortable number of hydralisks, you can push out. If he didn't switch to templar tech fast enough or built a good number of cannons, you can end the game here. If he took a third and has no cannons or templars there, kill it. If he took a third and has cannons or templar there, do not try to break it as you will only waste. Instead, switch back to drone production and take a fourth while containing him. If he didn't try to take his third but has cannons or templar in his natural, switch back to drone production and take a fourth while containing him.
Vs Early Stargate with mass Corsair and 2gate mass Zealot (Neo Bisu Build)
Make two sunks at your natural and third and flood hydralisks. Because his templar tech is very delayed, you can win in this situation simply by attacking once you have a large enough hydralisk force. Make sure you bring your overlords in the attack so spawning dark templar do not force you back. See my game vs dsaqwe at the bottom for a good reference.
Vs Early Stargate with mass Corsair and Reaver
Keep at least six hydralisks at each base to defend, do not move these unless the shuttle has died.
Vs Double Early Stargate
Go kill him.
Vs No Stargate 4gate Speedzeal
Make 2-3 sunkens at your natural and third and flood hydralisks. Make sure you have overlords everywhere versus this build. You need to check if he is taking a third or adding on more gateways. If he continues adding on gateways, do not drone up and do not take a fourth. Focus on units and getting lurkers out as soon as possible. If he takes a fast third, you can either mass hydralisks and try to bust it, or drone up and wait for lurkers to take a fourth.
Upgrades
I add on two evolution chambers as soon as I feel safe in the midgame. I get +1 Missile and +1 Carapace, then +1 Melee and +2 Carapace.
Hive Timing
Until only recently, I have been making my queen's nest at the same time I make my fourth expansion. However, I was being killed right before my hive tech kicked in. For the past week or two, I have been adding on two more hatcheries before my queens nest for a total of eight. Once my fourth base finishes and has been saturated, I take my fifth and add on another two hatcheries in my main for a total of eleven. I do not make any ultralisks until I have five fully saturated bases. If I start earlier, many of my hatcheries will have idle larva.
Maps
You can only use this build on maps with a close third. If it's too far away, it becomes very difficult to defend zealots or corsairs.
Examples of good maps: Fighting Spirit, Icarus, Empire of the Sun (horizontal spawn), Blue Storm, Heartbreak Ridge, Tau Cross, Destination, etc.
Example Games
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=42209 LRM)nOoNe vs NrG.DraGon (A-)
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=42210 LRM)nOoNe vs NrG.DraGon (A-)
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=42211 LRM)nOoNe vs dsaqwe (B)
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=42212 LRM)nOoNe vs TriX_PL (B+)
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=42213 LRM)nOoNe vs ToT)iNfeRnaL( (A-)
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Nice, I like it. Very clear and well written.
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have you ever seen a pro use this build?
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On June 03 2011 09:05 Crunchums wrote:
have you ever seen a pro use this build?
No, nor have I seen anyone else use this build.
Apparently Ahzz and ChOseN used it frequently, but I have not seen replays from them.
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This build sounds very similar to the 4 hatch before gas build. Any notable differences, or is this just a more up to date form of it?
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I like play like this.
It's an extreme with a goal.
I'll try this for sure!
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Oh my god Infernal is incredible. Really nice game, that. And interesting strategy. You didn't have any scourge though for obvious reasons in any of those games, so I'd expect shuttle play to be your weakness. I also noticed that you have a possibly vulnerable timing against Infernal, I think simply because he powered zealots for so long off of two base. Your lurkers were late against that strategy and he could have gained map control instead of being contained, forced you to chase him around the map etc. defending your 4th while he tries to take a third. All easier said than done I'm sure.
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Wait wait.... so do u take like 5, 4 or 3 bases in total with those 5 hatcheries
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Sounds really cool, will definitely try it out sometime.
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On June 03 2011 12:13 Zariel wrote:
Wait wait.... so do u take like 5, 4 or 3 bases in total with those 5 hatcheries
I think the guide clearly says 3.
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tried this against 7 protoss CPU. Needless to say i lost pretty quick
In all seriousness, when i tried this, i kept losing to shuttle harassment because i suck at dealing with that.
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alright i just tried this build, it feels like the best thing ever to pump that many drones and build that many hatcheries lollll its really refreshing LOL i dont know how to explain it
i watched your replays too, and i just think this build is really solid overall, sure it has vulnerable windows but every build does, and i feel that the times when you are vulnerable are times that most standard protoss players wont expect
corsair reaver play would be quite difficult to deal with but not many players have the skill to pull it off well anymore : /
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I think this build is very versatile. Because most Ps won't be able to recognise the difference between a 4 hatch b4 gas and a 5 hatch b4 gas, this will probably work very well.
Considering how you can easily hide your 5th hatch from his sight, he will most likely rush to templar tech and not do neo-Bisu, which can either give you room to expand or to mass up to attack.
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On June 03 2011 09:21 DeuS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 09:05 Crunchums wrote:
have you ever seen a pro use this build? No, nor have I seen anyone else use this build. Apparently Ahzz and ChOseN used it frequently, but I have not seen replays from them.
Yeah, I actually remember watching an Ahzz fpvod of this build.
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finally. i was trying to make some build like this one. thanks to author. mass hydra in mid game can be exteremly effective vs toss especially on map like python or aztec,where there are open territories in the center, and of course there is an option for dropping to toss main 24 hydralisk to eliminate the key buildings for his bo and gates, it really can slow him
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On June 03 2011 19:01 kolona wrote:
finally. i was trying to make some build like this one. thanks to author. mass hydra in mid game can be exteremly effective vs toss especially on map like python or aztec,where there are open territories in the center, and of course there is an option for dropping to toss main 24 hydralisk to eliminate the key buildings for his bo and gates, it really can slow him
er....what? how does what your saying have any relation to this build : /
which would suck terribly on python and does not involve a drop of any sort -.-
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Isn't this extremely similar to 4hat before gas? You take first gas later but the second earlier, doesn't this work out with a similar amount of gas and hatcheries? I realise that since you start teching later you can squeeze in more drones, but is there some more profound difference I am not seeing?
Anyway thanks for sharing Noone.
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On June 03 2011 19:17 shinjin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 19:01 kolona wrote:
finally. i was trying to make some build like this one. thanks to author. mass hydra in mid game can be exteremly effective vs toss especially on map like python or aztec,where there are open territories in the center, and of course there is an option for dropping to toss main 24 hydralisk to eliminate the key buildings for his bo and gates, it really can slow him er....what? how does what your saying have any relation to this build : / which would suck terribly on python and does not involve a drop of any sort -.-
python has remote third? well, for me it is quite near....
it is nice to drop, if you see that he can go out(have enough army, obs and storms). drop and def, expecting hive units. of course it is difficuilt, but still possible to drop when he has no many corsairs. actually, problem with his drop and corsair can be solved by quenn's ensnare and paraziting, when drop is expected, it is failed and slow landing will be much less effective.
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On June 03 2011 08:49 DeuS wrote:IntroductionHello! I am LRM)nOoNe on iccup. I have been using this build exclusively in zvp for the past four or five months and have had great success with it. It was introduced to me by LRM)Game, but since then I have made a few tweaks to it. The build focuses on early hatcheries and drones. Instead of using spire tech to deal with protoss's midgame options, you rely on hydralisks. You will eventually have a hydralurk army. You will have absolutely no air control with this build. Your midgame economy will be much stronger than normal. On maps with distant thirds, this build will not work. Build Order9 Overlord 9 Spawning Pool 11 Hatchery, scout 10 Six Zerglings 13 Hatchery 18 Overlord 18 Hatchery 27 Hatchery 26 Extractor 25 Extractor 24 Two Overlords @50 Gas - Hydralisk Den @100 Gas - Lair General Notes:This build only works vs forge expanding protosses. Don't put your third hatch down until you scout protoss. Larva will build up, but it is necessary to prevent deaths versus 2gate. All foods not listed are drones. If you don't build up your economy early, you won't be able to produce out of all five hatcheries. Versus early pressure, such as three zealots, you will need to add on four more zerglings. You do not get early ling speed. Wait at least until lurkers are out. Just because you can make hydras doesn't mean you should. Economy is the most important part of this build. Hydralisk upgrades go: Speed->Range->Lurkers. You CAN NOT fall behind on these upgrades. Lurkers come out at a very key time. Differences From Normal Play:You do not have a spire, meaning protoss has complete vision of what you are doing. This means that protoss does not need to build defense versus the threat of mutalisks. Also, once there is a threat of drops from the protoss, you should leave hydralisks at each base to defend until you get a spire. You do not have ling speed unless you open with a build that gets it. This means it's impossible to completely shut down scouting versus a protoss player with good probe control. This also means that the threat of a ling allin is small. Your midgame army will be larger than normal. However, you do not have the luxury of templar sniping with mutalisks. You must tactically position your hydralisks behind a moving protoss army to snipe templar. You can not engage a protoss army that has a large number of templar in it. Reacting to Scouting InformationYou should have an overlord in protoss's main. On two player maps, it is unnecessary to drone scout. On three or four player maps, you need to drone scout to avoid stupid deaths versus 1base protoss. Vs Early Stargate into Templar Tech: Make only a few hydralisks to hold off the corsairs. Making more does not serve any purpose, as early attacks will be shut down by storm. Make a few more rounds of drones and then start hydralisk production. Vs Early Stargate into Templar Tech with a fast third You have two options here. You can flood with hydralisks to try to prevent the third, or you can ignore it and quickly take a fourth. Only try to bust it if his zealot count is low and you are confident in your storm dodging. Vs Early Stargate with mass Corsair into Templar Tech Make ~18 hydralisks to hold off the corsairs. Send zerglings to all the possible places for him to expand. If you see he isn't expanding, expect a mass zealot followup. If he does expand, add on a few more hydralisks and take a fourth base. Alternatively, you can try to mass hydralisks and shut down the third. However, if you lose your hydralisks to storm, your overlords will be exposed. Vs Early Stargate into 2-4 Gate Zealot You will most likely need to build 1-2 sunks at your natural and third versus this build. Flood hydralisks as soon as your hydralisk den finishes. Once you have held off his attack and have a comfortable number of hydralisks, you can push out. If he didn't switch to templar tech fast enough or built a good number of cannons, you can end the game here. If he took a third and has no cannons or templars there, kill it. If he took a third and has cannons or templar there, do not try to break it as you will only waste. Instead, switch back to drone production and take a fourth while containing him. If he didn't try to take his third but has cannons or templar in his natural, switch back to drone production and take a fourth while containing him. Vs Early Stargate with mass Corsair and 2gate mass Zealot (Neo Bisu Build) Make two sunks at your natural and third and flood hydralisks. Because his templar tech is very delayed, you can win in this situation simply by attacking once you have a large enough hydralisk force. Make sure you bring your overlords in the attack so spawning dark templar do not force you back. See my game vs dsaqwe at the bottom for a good reference. Vs Early Stargate with mass Corsair and Reaver Keep at least six hydralisks at each base to defend, do not move these unless the shuttle has died. Vs Double Early Stargate Go kill him. Vs No Stargate 4gate Speedzeal Make 2-3 sunkens at your natural and third and flood hydralisks. Make sure you have overlords everywhere versus this build. You need to check if he is taking a third or adding on more gateways. If he continues adding on gateways, do not drone up and do not take a fourth. Focus on units and getting lurkers out as soon as possible. If he takes a fast third, you can either mass hydralisks and try to bust it, or drone up and wait for lurkers to take a fourth. UpgradesI add on two evolution chambers as soon as I feel safe in the midgame. I get +1 Missile and +1 Carapace, then +1 Melee and +2 Carapace. Hive TimingUntil only recently, I have been making my queen's nest at the same time I make my fourth expansion. However, I was being killed right before my hive tech kicked in. For the past week or two, I have been adding on two more hatcheries before my queens nest for a total of eight. Once my fourth base finishes and has been saturated, I take my fifth and add on another two hatcheries in my main for a total of eleven. I do not make any ultralisks until I have five fully saturated bases. If I start earlier, many of my hatcheries will have idle larva. MapsYou can only use this build on maps with a close third. If it's too far away, it becomes very difficult to defend zealots or corsairs. Examples of good maps: Fighting Spirit, Icarus, Empire of the Sun (horizontal spawn), Blue Storm, Heartbreak Ridge, Tau Cross, Destination, etc. Example Gameshttp://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=42209 LRM)nOoNe vs NrG.DraGon (A-) http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=42210 LRM)nOoNe vs NrG.DraGon (A-) http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=42211 LRM)nOoNe vs dsaqwe (B) http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=42212 LRM)nOoNe vs TriX_PL (B+) http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=42213 LRM)nOoNe vs ToT)iNfeRnaL( (A-)
what about building 2nd den right after lair? it will allow to make distance for hydra and lurks simultaneously
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It sounds legit although my main issue would be dealing with fast sairs, obviously you would be able to get hydras out but I think a good enough protoss should be able to harass enough where as you have to spend economy on spore colonies.
On another note if it can indeed deal with fast sairs like you said. There would be a timing where if protoss went straight zealot he could probably finish the game. Even on a normal 5 hatch hydra there's a timing protoss can use to attack when zerg has too few units. Spending that much economy that early makes it even more risky
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On June 03 2011 21:39 kolona wrote:
what about building 2nd den right after lair? it will allow to make distance for hydra and lurks simultaneously
You can't start lurkers immediately anyway, your lair is very late.
On June 03 2011 20:12 hellbound wrote:
Isn't this extremely similar to 4hat before gas? You take first gas later but the second earlier, doesn't this work out with a similar amount of gas and hatcheries? I realise that since you start teching later you can squeeze in more drones, but is there some more profound difference I am not seeing?
Anyway thanks for sharing Noone.
They're similar in the sense that they're focusing on economy and later tech. This build just delays the tech even more for an even larger economy.
On June 03 2011 19:17 shinjin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 19:01 kolona wrote:
finally. i was trying to make some build like this one. thanks to author. mass hydra in mid game can be exteremly effective vs toss especially on map like python or aztec,where there are open territories in the center, and of course there is an option for dropping to toss main 24 hydralisk to eliminate the key buildings for his bo and gates, it really can slow him er....what? how does what your saying have any relation to this build : / which would suck terribly on python and does not involve a drop of any sort -.-
If my opponent is cross map or close air positions, I don't mind this build on python. If it's 12 vs 9 or 2 vs 6 I wouldn't recommend doing it.
On June 03 2011 14:39 shinjin wrote:
alright i just tried this build, it feels like the best thing ever to pump that many drones and build that many hatcheries lollll its really refreshing LOL i dont know how to explain it
i watched your replays too, and i just think this build is really solid overall, sure it has vulnerable windows but every build does, and i feel that the times when you are vulnerable are times that most standard protoss players wont expect
corsair reaver play would be quite difficult to deal with but not many players have the skill to pull it off well anymore : /
Can you elaborate on the vulnerable windows? I don't really feel vulnerable at any point. The main problem I was having was teching to hive too fast, but I've fixed that. Against sair reaver, just defend and make drones. As long as you don't get too aggressive and waste hydralisks it shouldn't be a problem
On June 03 2011 14:13 Release wrote:
tried this against 7 protoss CPU. Needless to say i lost pretty quick
In all seriousness, when i tried this, i kept losing to shuttle harassment because i suck at dealing with that.
I do too, something I need to work on.
On June 03 2011 12:13 Zariel wrote:
Wait wait.... so do u take like 5, 4 or 3 bases in total with those 5 hatcheries
3
On June 03 2011 11:33 zobz wrote:
Oh my god Infernal is incredible. Really nice game, that. And interesting strategy. You didn't have any scourge though for obvious reasons in any of those games, so I'd expect shuttle play to be your weakness. I also noticed that you have a possibly vulnerable timing against Infernal, I think simply because he powered zealots for so long off of two base. Your lurkers were late against that strategy and he could have gained map control instead of being contained, forced you to chase him around the map etc. defending your 4th while he tries to take a third. All easier said than done I'm sure.
It's a hole in my play, I definitely should be getting scourge earlier. Regarding the zealots, I assume you mean when I was morphing the lurkers. He can push out, but if I position my remaining hydralisks correctly I get free templar. I definitely should have spread my lurker eggs out though incase I did screw up the hydralisk flank. If he does run around the map I can simply counter his natural and win immediately, I do it pretty often.
On June 03 2011 10:17 Zyferous wrote:
This build sounds very similar to the 4 hatch before gas build. Any notable differences, or is this just a more up to date form of it?
Tech is delayed by quite a bit more, but your economy is also stronger.
On June 03 2011 23:08 SluGGer wrote:
It sounds legit although my main issue would be dealing with fast sairs, obviously you would be able to get hydras out but I think a good enough protoss should be able to harass enough where as you have to spend economy on spore colonies.
On another note if it can indeed deal with fast sairs like you said. There would be a timing where if protoss went straight zealot he could probably finish the game. Even on a normal 5 hatch hydra there's a timing protoss can use to attack when zerg has too few units. Spending that much economy that early makes it even more risky
Fast corsair issue: Simply not the case. You will lose at most 1 overlord assuming you did make your gas/den on time. One issue is that if protoss manages to mess you up early with zealot harass, the den can get pushed back which can lead to death by corsairs.
Fast Sair into Zealot: Check my game vs dsaqwe, it's suicide to do that vs my build. If you mean skipping stargate completely for a 4gate speedzeal, I addressed that in the guide. There is a window but you can still remain safe + have a good economy through sunks/simcity. Plus, if he delayed his templar tech too much he can die outright.
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I'm assuming you put down the spire right when lair finishes, right?
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On June 03 2011 23:16 koreasilver wrote:
I'm assuming you put down the spire right when lair finishes, right?
When the lair finishes you won't have the money to do it, it would need to be some time after.
A good timing is probably around when you're taking your fourth, I'm stubborn about it and prefer to just leave hydralisks at home to deal with it. Again, it's a hole in my play that I need to fix, though I definitely wouldn't say it's a problem with the build.
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"Vs Double Early Stargate
Go kill him. "
i loled
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On June 03 2011 23:08 SluGGer wrote:
It sounds legit although my main issue would be dealing with fast sairs, obviously you would be able to get hydras out but I think a good enough protoss should be able to harass enough where as you have to spend economy on spore colonies.
On another note if it can indeed deal with fast sairs like you said. There would be a timing where if protoss went straight zealot he could probably finish the game. Even on a normal 5 hatch hydra there's a timing protoss can use to attack when zerg has too few units. Spending that much economy that early makes it even more risky
yeah but, the earlier you get your hatches the earlier you can start macroing up your hydras. so its good timing unless protoss does very fast.
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On June 03 2011 18:43 De4ngus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 09:21 DeuS wrote:On June 03 2011 09:05 Crunchums wrote:
have you ever seen a pro use this build? No, nor have I seen anyone else use this build. Apparently Ahzz and ChOseN used it frequently, but I have not seen replays from them. Yeah, I actually remember watching an Ahzz fpvod of this build.
First off, I'm glad this guide has taken off so well. Secondly, (shameless plug) ChOseN and Ahzz as my students had their spins on the original b/o that isn't quite listed, so the best way to see it besides nOoNe's replays would be to download ChOseN replays or see it in Ahzz's FPVods.
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How would this fare against a strong push such as 4 gateway 2 archon?
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On June 04 2011 01:51 AuxPriest wrote:
How would this fare against a strong push such as 4 gateway 2 archon?
No high temps = autodeath. Both if they push, and if they waste their first HTs on archons.
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when I executed this build(possibly/probably incorrectly), I pretty much started flooding hydras at about 6:20, and the average 6 zealot +1/speed upped attk hits at around 6:50 IIRC, so it really throws off tosses who are used to playing against 3 hat spire to 5 hat play, where hydras actually come out a bit later.
Can you elaborate on a few things noone?
I could watch the reps again and again : /
firstly, i noticed in some reps you overpool, and in the reps on FS you like this 11pool build, which i never considered before and is quite interesting. Do you always 11pool on FS?
How many drones do you transfer to your third, and when is the proper timing to transfer them lol
When do you start adding zerglings to the army/get ling speed
What should the ratio of hydra to lurker be?
(btw loved that sick maneuver where you lured dragon to his 3rd then came around behind and sniped his hts, plus the lurker egg ramp block was pretty sick)
I honestly think im actually NOT pumping enough drones or something, I think I need to make minimal hydras to hold off sairs and then pump another few rounds...hmm
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shinjin, the original build order was 11pool 8 lings for a runby or to contain the first 2 zealots to buy time to mass drone up, since you take your 3rd right away and have more economy.
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On June 04 2011 03:17 shinjin wrote:
firstly, i noticed in some reps you overpool, and in the reps on FS you like this 11pool build, which i never considered before and is quite interesting. Do you always 11pool on FS?
Yes, I like how it feels more. It gives a slightly better economy and still looks like an overpool, so 99% of protosses will treat it as such. Either way, protoss still needs to make a forge before nexus.
On June 04 2011 03:17 shinjin wrote:
How many drones do you transfer to your third, and when is the proper timing to transfer them
3 to my natural, 3 to my third. Depends on the map for when to transfer them, but that's something you can easily test yourself.
On June 04 2011 03:17 shinjin wrote:
When do you start adding zerglings to the army/get ling speed
I add on zerglings and get zergling speed around when lurkers are finished morphing.
On June 04 2011 03:17 shinjin wrote:
What should the ratio of hydra to lurker be?
Don't think in ratios, get as many lurkers as you can afford. I usually make ~24 lurkers per game.
On June 04 2011 03:17 shinjin wrote:
(btw loved that sick maneuver where you lured dragon to his 3rd then came around behind and sniped his hts, plus the lurker egg ramp block was pretty sick)
:D
If you want feedback, feel free to pm me here or message me on iccup.
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On June 03 2011 23:08 DeuS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 21:39 kolona wrote:
what about building 2nd den right after lair? it will allow to make distance for hydra and lurks simultaneously You can't start lurkers immediately anyway, your lair is very late.
Yes, but you say about Hydralisk upgrades : Speed->Range->Lurkers. Won't lurkers come earlier, if
you make speed for hydra in first den, and lurkers in second, while range in the first one after Speed is finished?
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On June 03 2011 09:05 Crunchums wrote:
have you ever seen a pro use this build?
And who are the pro? Jaedong and Zer0 only and other korean machines with 400 apm? BTW, Action did this, here is the link:
http://kiwi.kz/watch/5sb4ywb81j4x/
I watched many last replays and vods, and zerg fails very often using standard 3 hatch lair and spire.
Actually, toss wins more often than zerg does in case of using spire.
Even if zerg kills corsair toss build more, and all this ends all the same by protecting drones from storm/reaver drops by hydra, so what makes difference(bisu vs zero or bisu vs jaedong).
PS: can anyone give me a link to 4 hatch build?
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On June 04 2011 05:16 kolona wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 23:08 DeuS wrote:On June 03 2011 21:39 kolona wrote:
what about building 2nd den right after lair? it will allow to make distance for hydra and lurks simultaneously You can't start lurkers immediately anyway, your lair is very late. Yes, but you say about Hydralisk upgrades : Speed->Range->Lurkers. Won't lurkers come earlier, if you make speed for hydra in first den, and lurkers in second, while range in the first one after Speed is finished?
Besides, perhaps, making distance before speed seem to be more effective versus corsairs and speedlots rushes
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On June 04 2011 05:28 kolona wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 05:16 kolona wrote:On June 03 2011 23:08 DeuS wrote:On June 03 2011 21:39 kolona wrote:
what about building 2nd den right after lair? it will allow to make distance for hydra and lurks simultaneously You can't start lurkers immediately anyway, your lair is very late. Yes, but you say about Hydralisk upgrades : Speed->Range->Lurkers. Won't lurkers come earlier, if you make speed for hydra in first den, and lurkers in second, while range in the first one after Speed is finished? Besides, perhaps, making distance before speed seem to be more effective versus corsairs and speedlots rushes
Needs to be speed first so you can reinforce between your natural and third quickly.
On June 04 2011 05:25 kolona wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 09:05 Crunchums wrote:
have you ever seen a pro use this build? And who are the pro? Jaedong and Zer0 only and other korean machines with 400 apm? BTW, Action did this, here is the link: http://kiwi.kz/watch/5sb4ywb81j4x/I watched many last replays and vods, and zerg fails very often using standard 3 hatch lair and spire. Actually, toss wins more often than zerg does in case of using spire. Even if zerg kills corsair toss build more, and all this ends all the same by protecting drones from storm/reaver drops by hydra, so what makes difference(bisu vs zero or bisu vs jaedong). PS: can anyone give me a link to 4 hatch build?
I don't understand your first two questions. Action did not use my build at all.
There's nothing wrong with 3h spire 5h hydra, it's just a stylistic choice.
I heard hero used a 4 hatch build on dante's peak se recently, but I didn't watch it.
LP page on 4 hatch: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/4_Hatch_Lair_(vs._Protoss)
On June 04 2011 05:16 kolona wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 23:08 DeuS wrote:On June 03 2011 21:39 kolona wrote:
what about building 2nd den right after lair? it will allow to make distance for hydra and lurks simultaneously You can't start lurkers immediately anyway, your lair is very late. Yes, but you say about Hydralisk upgrades : Speed->Range->Lurkers. Won't lurkers come earlier, if you make speed for hydra in first den, and lurkers in second, while range in the first one after Speed is finished?
Well.. yes, but it's not worth it. You're tight on resources at that point, it's not until later that you have an economic boom.
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On June 04 2011 05:16 kolona wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 23:08 DeuS wrote:On June 03 2011 21:39 kolona wrote:
what about building 2nd den right after lair? it will allow to make distance for hydra and lurks simultaneously You can't start lurkers immediately anyway, your lair is very late. Yes, but you say about Hydralisk upgrades : Speed->Range->Lurkers. Won't lurkers come earlier, if you make speed for hydra in first den, and lurkers in second, while range in the first one after Speed is finished?
You don't seem to understand how this build looks yet. Watch the replays or the VODs or the FPVODs. They all will clearly show you how this build is supposed to flow. You're still proposing that lurker tech and speed will somehow be able to be researched simultaneously when lair isn't done. Also you shouldn't rush tech switches, they have to flow into one or another or there's a huge gap in map control. Giving a lategame protoss map control is suicide.
This can be dangerous if toss goes 2 gate or proxy gates...Though, of course, zerg can build hatch on ramp and try to block, but still it can be risky
Why would you build on ramp...? That makes no sense. The economy of an 11pool is better than an overpool which can defend both opening builds you mentioned quite easily in capable hands. Only thing better is 12 pool and 12 hatch which only increase your odds of success.
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On June 04 2011 03:17 shinjin wrote:
firstly, i noticed in some reps you overpool, and in the reps on FS you like this 11pool build, which i never considered before and is quite interesting. Do you always 11pool on FS?
This can be dangerous if toss goes 2 gate or proxy gates...Though, of course, zerg can build hatch
on ramp and try to block, but still it can be risky
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On June 04 2011 05:42 kolona wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 03:17 shinjin wrote:
firstly, i noticed in some reps you overpool, and in the reps on FS you like this 11pool build, which i never considered before and is quite interesting. Do you always 11pool on FS?
This can be dangerous if toss goes 2 gate or proxy gates...Though, of course, zerg can build hatch on ramp and try to block, but still it can be risky
I don't understand why you would say that... 11pool is great versus both.
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On June 03 2011 09:21 DeuS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 09:05 Crunchums wrote:
have you ever seen a pro use this build? No, nor have I seen anyone else use this build. Apparently Ahzz and ChOseN used it frequently, but I have not seen replays from them.
Actually saw an Ahzz VOD where he does this build and was wondering if it would still work. Apparently, it does. :p
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This build is really interesting. When do you get overlord speed though? And how do you spread out your overlords to ensure that you won't get sair/dted to death? I understand sairs get destroyed by mass hydras which will be able to protect your overlords, but how do you make sure the toss doesn't just suicide their sairs for your overlords and proceed to kill your drone line with DTs? How many overlords do you keep at your third to ensure that a wave of sairs doesn't just come in and kill them and DTs proceed to kill your third?
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If I'm playing versus a corsair opening, I get ovy speed immediately when lair finishes. If no corsairs are coming, I usually delay it a bit because I need the extra money to deal with zealots. I clump my ovys at my nat/third. If toss wants to suicide for my ovys, that's fine. Even if he does get them all, which is very unlikely, I get all/most of his corsairs in the trade which means there's no longer any threat. If all my ovys die at my nat or third, I can just bring some from the other location and be absolutely fine.
The main issue that I had at the start was not positioning my hydralisks properly. For example, if there were 6 sairs in my nat causing problems, I'd send everything there to deal with it and leave my third vulnerable. This would cause problems because he has more mobility than me. I've learned to spread my hydras properly, so I don't have that issue anymore.
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I tried this build earlier today and I liked it a lot. I had so much money it felt really nice. I still lost the game though due to fail multitask at defending storm drops, but I'm definitely going to continue using it. Thanks for the guide!
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Great guide. But I have one question.
With no scourages and such a delayed ovie speed, aren't you playing blind for a long time after protoss gets a dragoon out?
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On June 07 2011 10:42 almond wrote:
Great guide. But I have one question.
With no scourages and such a delayed ovie speed, aren't you playing blind for a long time after protoss gets a dragoon out?
You should always play safe. You don't really need to pin him on a build because your response against all of them is.. hydras. When I'm completely blind, I make 18 hydras before I do anything else regarding powering. I have never encountered a situation where by that point I am still blind. Either way, most of the time you will be able to see his tech before his goon kills your overlord. If not, you can dance zerglings at his front to try to decipher his build.
On June 07 2011 11:23 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 10:42 almond wrote:
Great guide. But I have one question.
With no scourages and such a delayed ovie speed, aren't you playing blind for a long time after protoss gets a dragoon out? yea. now that i think about it... would a nicely timed goon-allin after forge FE work? i do acknowledge the power of 5hatcheries and the hardcore droning the whole time, but when more than a dozen ranged goons show up just a tiny bit after the den finishes, wouldnt that kill a no lingspeed zerg who is just starting hydra production? idk this is just theorycrafting but it'd be nice to see someone try this
That's not how the timing works. It's not like vs 3h spire 5h hydra where it hits just as hydra production begins, you will have at least 2 control groups of hydras.
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I don't think, from the replays, you would have won very many games if you played against a properly timed 2 base 8 gateway goon/zealot/templar/archon/sair bust. It seemed like you economy was actually pretty weak in the later stages of the game due to your over excessive hydra production (You are producing way more hydralisks that you need imho and you could get some more tech/drones).
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On June 07 2011 12:01 tryummm wrote:
I don't think, from the replays, you would have won very many games if you played against a properly timed 2 base 8 gateway goon/zealot/templar/archon/sair bust. It seemed like you economy was actually pretty weak in the later stages of the game due to your over excessive hydra production (You are producing way more hydralisks that you need imho and you could get some more tech/drones).
The only hard counter I'm aware of is a very well controlled all templar (1 sair to keep scouting) 8 gate 110 protoss build where they just save 400 minerals for their 3rd after they bust.
Replay example (shameless plug of person who invented the b/o countering his own student with it):
http://gosugamers.net/starcraft/replays/15744
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On June 07 2011 12:03 krndandaman wrote:
that's the +1 goon timing attack
im not gonna say any more becuz this is all theoretical atm and i most definitely can be wrong but i think there is a possible timing.
either way, im loving the theorycrafting again. the last time i was this interested in a new build was the U-21 rax cc opening
Not sure what you're talking about then.
On June 07 2011 12:01 tryummm wrote:
I don't think, from the replays, you would have won very many games if you played against a properly timed 2 base 8 gateway goon/zealot/templar/archon/sair bust. It seemed like you economy was actually pretty weak in the later stages of the game due to your over excessive hydra production (You are producing way more hydralisks that you need imho and you could get some more tech/drones).
The replays do not reflect my current lategame follow-through. They outline the opening, which is all I was really aiming for. If I see protoss does not plan to take a third, I take my fourth base and add on two more hatches (for a total of 8). I do not drone up my fourth base until I have held off his attack. 8 hatchery production is very capable of holding 2base 8gw.
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They're both perfectly viable. From my point of view, it's more difficult to deal with strong shuttle play.
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depends. if protoss found out you are doing such an economic play, he will do sth like 2 gate
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On June 07 2011 12:03 krndandaman wrote:
that's the +1 goon timing attack
im not gonna say any more becuz this is all theoretical atm and i most definitely can be wrong but i think there is a possible timing.
Could you elaborate a little more on this? I'm curious what kind of replays you have that might reflect this style. I can confirm that most standard builds do not work properly against the timings of 5 hatch hydra after 5 hatch before gas. The "standard" move-out time vs 3 base spire 5 hatch is much too late and unprepared for the mass hydra soon-to-be hydra/lurker waiting for them outside. I'd be interested to see a hard-counter timing opening.
depends. if protoss found out you are doing such an economic play, he will do sth like 2 gate
and how is he going to change his build suddenly to a 2 gate while scouting? 4 scout? 5 scout? the timing of the forge FE would not allow you to "suddenly change" after seeing several hatches going down. Either that or you just have the worst opening build timing in all of history since apparently you still have time to transition from an FE to a 2 gate AFTER you see the 4th/5th hatches going down.
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As I said in the first post, you don't place down the third hatch until you scout that he is forge fe'ing. If he 2gates, you don't use this build.
If you are talking about forge fe with a second gate instead of a core, you have one window where you need to do major damage. If you don't, your templar tech is too late and you die. The other issue is that if you do elect to get second gw instead of a core, it is very obvious.
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Hi noOne, I'm gonna read this now, carefully! :D
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On June 07 2011 11:54 DeuS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 10:42 almond wrote:
Great guide. But I have one question.
With no scourages and such a delayed ovie speed, aren't you playing blind for a long time after protoss gets a dragoon out? You should always play safe. You don't really need to pin him on a build because your response against all of them is.. hydras. When I'm completely blind, I make 18 hydras before I do anything else regarding powering. I have never encountered a situation where by that point I am still blind. Either way, most of the time you will be able to see his tech before his goon kills your overlord. If not, you can dance zerglings at his front to try to decipher his build.
So with this build, even if you blindly make 18 hydras, you still have a better midgame economy than 3 spire 5 hydra?
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On June 08 2011 09:23 almond wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2011 11:54 DeuS wrote:On June 07 2011 10:42 almond wrote:
Great guide. But I have one question.
With no scourages and such a delayed ovie speed, aren't you playing blind for a long time after protoss gets a dragoon out? You should always play safe. You don't really need to pin him on a build because your response against all of them is.. hydras. When I'm completely blind, I make 18 hydras before I do anything else regarding powering. I have never encountered a situation where by that point I am still blind. Either way, most of the time you will be able to see his tech before his goon kills your overlord. If not, you can dance zerglings at his front to try to decipher his build. So with this build, even if you blindly make 18 hydras, you still have a better midgame economy than 3 spire 5 hydra?
Yes, much stronger.
It's at least 10 more drones.
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I see. Will try this out later.
Thanksss.
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What about sair-reaver openings? Since your mid-game army mass is delayed and you wouldn't be able to scout stargate count, then how do you counter the harassment?
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ghrur, krndandaman, almond and Jmave are correct.
As you know, the build loses air control. Therefore no scouting at critical times. And no way of stopping reaver or dt drops. A dt drop will kill one of your bases guaranteed. Know your weaknesses.
However, I am talking about the top level of skill here. This build is very powerful up to a point and I really like it. It utilizes the power of the zerg macro mechanics to the full which is deliciously evil.
Haha thanks for the guide.
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On June 08 2011 21:58 Miwyfe wrote:
ghrur, krndandaman, almond and Jmave are correct.
As you know, the build loses air control. Therefore no scouting at critical times. And no way of stopping reaver or dt drops. A dt drop will kill one of your bases guaranteed. Know your weaknesses.
However, I am talking about the top level of skill here. This build is very powerful up to a point and I really like it. It utilizes the power of the zerg macro mechanics to the full which is deliciously evil.
Haha thanks for the guide.
You're completely wrong, I don't know how else to say it. I've addressed scouting and I've addressed drops, neither are an issue if you play properly.
On June 08 2011 10:28 JMave wrote:
What about sair-reaver openings? Since your mid-game army mass is delayed and you wouldn't be able to scout stargate count, then how do you counter the harassment?
It's not delayed, it actually comes out faster. I've already addressed how to counter sair-reaver in the first post.
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I'd say because it's less versatile? Once you get your 5th hatch before gas, you're pretty much forced to take certain steps. I can imagine Movie for instance to have a death trap ready once he sees a Z heading this direction. 3hspire5hhydra can take so much more directions.
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On June 09 2011 06:01 Navane wrote:
I'd say because it's less versatile? Once you get your 5th hatch before gas, you're pretty much forced to take certain steps. I can imagine Movie for instance to have a death trap ready once he sees a Z heading this direction. 3hspire5hhydra can take so much more directions.
It's really protoss that needs to be versatile against this build. You are absolutely going to get a good economy and you are absolutely going to have a lot of hydras early, it's up to protoss to change his plan to deal with this. With that being said, because you are not doing anything regarding air, protoss does not need to account for it. He does not need to spend money on cannons, archons, or worry about muta backstabs. So in that sense, yes, 5h no gas is less versatile, but not in a death-inducing way. It just gives protoss more room to breathe and more money to spend elsewhere.
On June 09 2011 05:51 krndandaman wrote:
any reason that koreans / progamers are not using this build? it looks pretty solid no matter how you look at it. and it's been around for a long time so... i'd imagine at least one korean knows about this build.
Not sure, I can say that some of the new maps are not good for this build. Aztec, for example, is difficult because you can't easily secure a fourth gas assuming you took the nearby third. You can take the expo immediately down your ramp, but it feels really unsafe to me.
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Well, cheers for sharing this guide and replying to everyone, much appreciated, nice one. I love reading Broodwar strat discussions. Cheers.
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United States2095 Posts
Yep this was my build on Tau at least xD!
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On June 11 2011 01:47 Sheth wrote:
Yep this was my build on Tau at least xD!
And many variances on other maps, such as Othello and Longinus. ^^
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Here is a better response;
This build doesnt threaten very many options compared to standard builds and that makes it less powerful I believe. As soon as Zerg gets gas and a lair, the Protoss must be preparing for threats of mutas, lurkers, and drops. However this build pushes back those threats by not getting a lair upgrade for a long time.
The new threat that this build gains is a sustained hydra ling pump from 5 hatches at an earlier timing than standard. This is definately very scary but I think that earlier air threats and tech threats are more dangerous to a Protoss, and that is why it is not used by the pros.
The later lair gives the Protoss player knowledge that hydras and lings are the only threat for the midterm future. The Protoss player is still threatening everything he normally would be (and the zerg must prepare for to be safe) while eliminating many of the usual Zerg threats he himself would normally have to prepare for. I think that overall the new threats you gain are not as dangerous as the threats that are now excluded from you, but its still a good build.
The corners a Protoss could cut accordingly (delayed cannon in the main, delayed sairs, delayed dragoons, no need to hang back against drops, early 2nd forge maybe, delayed archons, delayed observers) could all lead to a very powerful pre lurker timing attack of upgraded zealots and high templar, maybe a reaver too. That is a pretty scary timing attack for you to face, even with a 5 hatchery sustained hydra pump. After you survive, Protoss will be ahead in upgrades for a good while too, providing more opportunities for later timing attacks, after taking a third base.
There is also a big advantage of using non standard builds regularly which is familiarity. Because you are using this build alot you get the timings nice and crisp while the opponent will not be comfortable in the same way. That is a great advantage and should not be overlooked. Having your own style can really help.
Goodluck with your future games using this build, hope it continues to bring more success.
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On June 13 2011 01:16 Miwyfe wrote:
Here is a better response;
This build doesnt threaten very many options compared to standard builds and that makes it less powerful I believe. As soon as Zerg gets gas and a lair, the Protoss must be preparing for threats of mutas, lurkers, and drops. However this build pushes back those threats by not getting a lair upgrade for a long time.
The new threat that this build gains is a sustained hydra ling pump from 5 hatches at an earlier timing than standard. This is definately very scary but I think that earlier air threats and tech threats are more dangerous to a Protoss, and that is why it is not used by the pros.
The later lair gives the Protoss player knowledge that hydras and lings are the only threat for the midterm future. The Protoss player is still threatening everything he normally would be (and the zerg must prepare for to be safe) while eliminating many of the usual Zerg threats he himself would normally have to prepare for. I think that overall the new threats you gain are not as dangerous as the threats that are now excluded from you, but its still a good build.
The corners a Protoss could cut accordingly (delayed cannon in the main, delayed sairs, delayed dragoons, no need to hang back against drops, early 2nd forge maybe, delayed archons, delayed observers) could all lead to a very powerful pre lurker timing attack of upgraded zealots and high templar, maybe a reaver too. That is a pretty scary timing attack for you to face, even with a 5 hatchery sustained hydra pump. After you survive, Protoss will be ahead in upgrades for a good while too, providing more opportunities for later timing attacks, after taking a third base.
There is also a big advantage of using non standard builds regularly which is familiarity. Because you are using this build alot you get the timings nice and crisp while the opponent will not be comfortable in the same way. That is a great advantage and should not be overlooked. Having your own style can really help.
Goodluck with your future games using this build, hope it continues to bring more success.
a very good analysis, i actually need to learn the exact timings for all of those protoss timings
when does one usually build a cannon in main, start dragoons, and make observers
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I've already discussed threat extensively. Protoss will be stronger, but so will zerg. Protoss does not threaten everything he normally would because he needs to account for the earlier hydra mass. Attacks before lurkers with zealot/templar will get shut down by good hydra flanks. If he loses those templar the game ends immediately, so it's not a risk most protoss will take. It's not possible to have a reaver/zealot/templar in the first push out. Any small protoss attacks (ie: <100 food) are easily killed just because zerg's midgame army is so strong. Once it gets bigger it is harder to stop but it's absolutely possible.
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good guide noone.really good for counter 3 4 gates zeal speed 
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its an old build i used it long ago when ahzz writed a guid with this but the Build order was a lil diferent but thx for the uptdate . anyway i started to not use it anymore coz it elaves me so open for shuttle play ... . and i even cant really defend myself vs shuttle sair play witha speir opening..
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Since people are starting to use this build on ICCUP. NoOne, can I ask you a favor? Could you clarify in this thread that a 4 gate speed zealot pressure is NOT an all in versus this build? So that when people don't get the timing right and get raped by my zealots, they don't call me a cheeser? =.= thanks.
Edit: To be more specific, a cheeser who will never make it past D+. LOL!
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up
User was warned for this post
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Very intresting build i just swap to zerg like 2 weeks ago and i might try this build. I tired of using 3 base spire 5 hatch hydra since it so weak in econ unless you double expo with the 4th and 5th hatchery but otherwise this build looks alot better then standred 3 basespire 5 hatch hydra play due to better econ even though no air control at all.Thank you for making this guide for us fellow zergs to use.
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On July 06 2011 05:35 LightningStrike wrote:
Very intresting build i just swap to zerg like 2 weeks ago and i might try this build. I tired of using 3 base spire 5 hatch hydra since it so weak in econ unless you double expo with the 4th and 5th hatchery but otherwise this build looks alot better then standred 3 basespire 5 hatch hydra play due to better econ even though no air control at all.Thank you for making this guide for us fellow zergs to use.
This makes no sense.
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On July 06 2011 08:46 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 05:35 LightningStrike wrote:
Very intresting build i just swap to zerg like 2 weeks ago and i might try this build. I tired of using 3 base spire 5 hatch hydra since it so weak in econ unless you double expo with the 4th and 5th hatchery but otherwise this build looks alot better then standred 3 basespire 5 hatch hydra play due to better econ even though no air control at all.Thank you for making this guide for us fellow zergs to use. This makes no sense.
What he means is that instead of putting the 4th and 5th hatches as macro hatches at your natural and third, you double expo.
Which is stupid.
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hmm you didn't really talk much about lurker timing so i have a few questions.
when is a good time to move into lurkers? i am assuming that you will need to drone up a little more after your initial mid-game army before you can do that and to accumulate gas as well.
is it possible to squeeze in your spire during your second drone phase and move into mutas for ht sniping?
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On June 11 2011 01:51 Game wrote:And many variances on other maps, such as Othello and Longinus. ^^
That reminds me, I've seen you use this on CB by taking a min-only third noOne. How do you deal with the lower mineral-gas ratio income?
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On July 06 2011 10:44 JMave wrote:
hmm you didn't really talk much about lurker timing so i have a few questions.
when is a good time to move into lurkers? i am assuming that you will need to drone up a little more after your initial mid-game army before you can do that and to accumulate gas as well.
is it possible to squeeze in your spire during your second drone phase and move into mutas for ht sniping?
he says in the guide that lurkers come at a critical time, after upgrading as range finishes. this imo, is the timing when toss has just enough storms and troops to ram through virtually any hydra mass. lurks in this build come MUCH earlier than in 3h spire.
i dont you'll have the minerals for any muta before 5 bases, as its important to reinforce with hydra/lurk/ling constantly.. if the toss ball takes the map, it immediately becomes an uphill battle and by the time mutas come, their relative strength is too weak for the price of giving up meaty reinforcements, since this build goes almost straight into 'lategame mentality' from hydra/lurk.
i think the one of the hardest mental shifts (for me anyway) is that toss taking 3rd gas is not the 'game ender' it is like in the standard spire first build.
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On July 08 2011 00:45 DarkSaieden wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 10:44 JMave wrote:
hmm you didn't really talk much about lurker timing so i have a few questions.
when is a good time to move into lurkers? i am assuming that you will need to drone up a little more after your initial mid-game army before you can do that and to accumulate gas as well.
is it possible to squeeze in your spire during your second drone phase and move into mutas for ht sniping? he says in the guide that lurkers come at a critical time, after upgrading as range finishes. this imo, is the timing when toss has just enough storms and troops to ram through virtually any hydra mass. lurks in this build come MUCH earlier than in 3h spire. i dont you'll have the minerals for any muta before 5 bases, as its important to reinforce with hydra/lurk/ling constantly.. if the toss ball takes the map, it immediately becomes an uphill battle and by the time mutas come, their relative strength is too weak for the price of giving up meaty reinforcements, since this build goes almost straight into 'lategame mentality' from hydra/lurk. i think the one of the hardest mental shifts (for me anyway) is that toss taking 3rd gas is not the 'game ender' it is like in the standard spire first build.
Around the time toss is taking a third you should already have lurkers out and be trying to either contan him or kill his third, with containing being the better option in 90% of the cases, because you can get a forth base and while reinforcing the contain tech to t3 with ultras and defilers.
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On July 08 2011 03:18 Mortician wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 00:45 DarkSaieden wrote:On July 06 2011 10:44 JMave wrote:
hmm you didn't really talk much about lurker timing so i have a few questions.
when is a good time to move into lurkers? i am assuming that you will need to drone up a little more after your initial mid-game army before you can do that and to accumulate gas as well.
is it possible to squeeze in your spire during your second drone phase and move into mutas for ht sniping? he says in the guide that lurkers come at a critical time, after upgrading as range finishes. this imo, is the timing when toss has just enough storms and troops to ram through virtually any hydra mass. lurks in this build come MUCH earlier than in 3h spire. i dont you'll have the minerals for any muta before 5 bases, as its important to reinforce with hydra/lurk/ling constantly.. if the toss ball takes the map, it immediately becomes an uphill battle and by the time mutas come, their relative strength is too weak for the price of giving up meaty reinforcements, since this build goes almost straight into 'lategame mentality' from hydra/lurk. i think the one of the hardest mental shifts (for me anyway) is that toss taking 3rd gas is not the 'game ender' it is like in the standard spire first build. Around the time toss is taking a third you should already have lurkers out and be trying to either contan him or kill his third
This is not true, sometimes lurkers do not come out in time.
On July 06 2011 11:48 ghrur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2011 01:51 Game wrote:On June 11 2011 01:47 Sheth wrote:
Yep this was my build on Tau at least xD! And many variances on other maps, such as Othello and Longinus. ^^ That reminds me, I've seen you use this on CB by taking a min-only third noOne. How do you deal with the lower mineral-gas ratio income?
If I were to play on CB today, I don't think I'd take the mineral only. The third gas is really crucial for getting enough lurkers out. On maps with mineral only bases, I add on two more hatches for more lings (3 including the expo hatch).
On July 06 2011 10:44 JMave wrote:
hmm you didn't really talk much about lurker timing so i have a few questions.
when is a good time to move into lurkers? i am assuming that you will need to drone up a little more after your initial mid-game army before you can do that and to accumulate gas as well.
is it possible to squeeze in your spire during your second drone phase and move into mutas for ht sniping?
Speed->Range->Lurkers
You don't need to drone up before going lurkers. Most of the time, lurkers are what allow you to make another round or two of drones.
I have not tried getting a spire for templar sniping, I greatly prefer having a large amount of lurkers.
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something i'd like to point out here is that this build really needs a close 3rd, but at same time, that means toss will have a close third. if you attack to early (ie few/no probes) you giving up position which means you could lose your army for a few hundred minerals. a wise toss will attack and likely just roll through your bases. fighting spirit and destination are good examples where this is quite possible
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On July 08 2011 03:40 DeuS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2011 11:48 ghrur wrote:On June 11 2011 01:51 Game wrote:On June 11 2011 01:47 Sheth wrote:
Yep this was my build on Tau at least xD! And many variances on other maps, such as Othello and Longinus. ^^ That reminds me, I've seen you use this on CB by taking a min-only third noOne. How do you deal with the lower mineral-gas ratio income? If I were to play on CB today, I don't think I'd take the mineral only. The third gas is really crucial for getting enough lurkers out. On maps with mineral only bases, I add on two more hatches for more lings (3 including the expo hatch).
So would you recommend not using this on a map like CB or taking the 3/6/9/12 bases instead?
On July 08 2011 06:53 DarkSaieden wrote:
something i'd like to point out here is that this build really needs a close 3rd, but at same time, that means toss will have a close third. if you attack to early (ie few/no probes) you giving up position which means you could lose your army for a few hundred minerals. a wise toss will attack and likely just roll through your bases. fighting spirit and destination are good examples where this is quite possible
??? I don't really understand the bolded part.
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i currently have been using this build and have had great success. my zvp was probably my worst mu, but know i think it can be my best thanks game and noone for this 1
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On July 09 2011 04:10 ghrur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 06:53 DarkSaieden wrote:
something i'd like to point out here is that this build really needs a close 3rd, but at same time, that means toss will have a close third. if you attack to early (ie few/no probes) you giving up position which means you could lose your army for a few hundred minerals. a wise toss will attack and likely just roll through your bases. fighting spirit and destination are good examples where this is quite possible ??? I don't really understand the bolded part.
say for example toss is busy trying to take his 3rd on fighting spirit, and you still only have 2 groups hydras out, about a third at home for sairs. if you try quickly take it out, its possible that toss's army sitting in his nat will trap you between itself and the ramp because the distance is so close. u will lose map control and most, if not all, of your army, and toss would lose a nexus and a pylon or 2, which he will rebuild as he marches to contain you. by the time you have a bigger army and he's made a heavy investment in his third, toss will have cannons above the ramp, making it virtually suicide without swarm, and losing your army now would put you in even worse position than before as temps will be loaded.
so, the safest response is to simply take a 4th gas yourself and keep killing his army and attempts at a fourth gas.
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On July 09 2011 19:11 DarkSaieden wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2011 04:10 ghrur wrote:On July 08 2011 06:53 DarkSaieden wrote:
something i'd like to point out here is that this build really needs a close 3rd, but at same time, that means toss will have a close third. if you attack to early (ie few/no probes) you giving up position which means you could lose your army for a few hundred minerals. a wise toss will attack and likely just roll through your bases. fighting spirit and destination are good examples where this is quite possible ??? I don't really understand the bolded part. say for example toss is busy trying to take his 3rd on fighting spirit, and you still only have 2 groups hydras out, about a third at home for sairs. if you try quickly take it out, its possible that toss's army sitting in his nat will trap you between itself and the ramp because the distance is so close. u will lose map control and most, if not all, of your army, and toss would lose a nexus and a pylon or 2, which he will rebuild as he marches to contain you. by the time you have a bigger army and he's made a heavy investment in his third, toss will have cannons above the ramp, making it virtually suicide without swarm, and losing your army now would put you in even worse position than before as temps will be loaded. so, the safest response is to simply take a 4th gas yourself and keep killing his army and attempts at a fourth gas.
Oh, I see.
Well, you wouldn't necessarily need your whole army to shut down a warping third. I often see zergs just send like 6-12 lings to go shut it down. Besides, toss can't really trap you at the third unless he attacks from both ramps of the third, which would mean splitting his army up in the first place and possibly getting it killed one half at a time. I mean, normally, if you see his army come up, just run down the ramp.
I think the safest response will depend on scouting. If you can catch their army out of position and shut down a third, why not do it. :/
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this build reminds me something of 3 hatch hydra at the times when tosses didn't take their natural exp. difference is that there are lurks and templars in the game. actually it not easy for toss to break 12 lurks defence with hydra and 20-30 lings
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I've tried this build about 7-8 times and I really like it, the only problem I faced it's mass corsair/reaver -> 3rd in island -> mass ground. I even have no idea about lurker timing vs sair/reaver, should I get them? And how about the 4th timing vs reaver compare with vs zeal? Thanks
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On July 30 2011 12:14 [Cute]Pjnkje wrote:
I've tried this build about 7-8 times and I really like it, the only problem I faced it's mass corsair/reaver -> 3rd in island -> mass ground. I even have no idea about lurker timing vs sair/reaver, should I get them? And how about the 4th timing vs reaver compare with vs zeal? Thanks
take an early 4th and add an extra hatch or 2, he cant do any real ground damage till shuttle speed finishes without risking a hydra flank. still get the tech right after range, but only make a few to defend your bases/mineral lines from pesky zeal runs. get burrow for haxlings and hydra ambushes. the late game set up will be you getting up your 5th while denying toss's 4th, you could try something fancy to break his 3rd or main or simply keep killing his army till he mines out.
when overlord speed finishes (should be at the same time as hydra range) poke his nat with ~2 groups of hydra while pumping more for defence just in case. if toss severly overspent on sairs its a crippling blow, or else just try snipe whatevr, but be wary of storms.
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Thanks so much. I have another problem when he go sair/DT and attack my third with zeal/DT/sair combo, like this
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=43215
According to the OP
Vs Early Stargate with mass Corsair into Templar Tech
Make ~18 hydralisks to hold off the corsairs. Send zerglings to all the possible places for him to expand. If you see he isn't expanding, expect a mass zealot followup. If he does expand, add on a few more hydralisks and take a fourth base. Alternatively, you can try to mass hydralisks and shut down the third. However, if you lose your hydralisks to storm, your overlords will be exposed.
I have no idea about sunken number or how to defend my ovies when my hydras are busy dealing with zeal+DT.
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On August 14 2011 11:21 [Cute]Pjnkje wrote:Thanks so much. I have another problem when he go sair/DT and attack my third with zeal/DT/sair combo, like this http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=43215According to the OP Show nested quote +Vs Early Stargate with mass Corsair into Templar Tech
Make ~18 hydralisks to hold off the corsairs. Send zerglings to all the possible places for him to expand. If you see he isn't expanding, expect a mass zealot followup. If he does expand, add on a few more hydralisks and take a fourth base. Alternatively, you can try to mass hydralisks and shut down the third. However, if you lose your hydralisks to storm, your overlords will be exposed.
I have no idea about sunken number or how to defend my ovies when my hydras are busy dealing with zeal+DT.
Didn't watch the replay, but why would your overlords not be at the bases the zeal and DTs are attacking? That doesn't make sense whatsoever. Not to mention, losing 2-3 ovies is clearly not as dire as losing a base to ground units. The entire premise of your post is lackluster or not well thought out. If you feel the need to be uber safe and protect overlords at all costs, I suggest just placing 3 sunkens at each base and making a later strong midgame economy.
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On August 14 2011 22:15 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 15:28 Game wrote:On August 14 2011 11:21 [Cute]Pjnkje wrote:Thanks so much. I have another problem when he go sair/DT and attack my third with zeal/DT/sair combo, like this http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=43215According to the OP Vs Early Stargate with mass Corsair into Templar Tech
Make ~18 hydralisks to hold off the corsairs. Send zerglings to all the possible places for him to expand. If you see he isn't expanding, expect a mass zealot followup. If he does expand, add on a few more hydralisks and take a fourth base. Alternatively, you can try to mass hydralisks and shut down the third. However, if you lose your hydralisks to storm, your overlords will be exposed.
I have no idea about sunken number or how to defend my ovies when my hydras are busy dealing with zeal+DT. Didn't watch the replay, but why would your overlords not be at the bases the zeal and DTs are attacking? That doesn't make sense whatsoever. Not to mention, losing 2-3 ovies is clearly not as dire as losing a base to ground units. The entire premise of your post is lackluster or not well thought out. If you feel the need to be uber safe and protect overlords at all costs, I suggest just placing 3 sunkens at each base and making a later strong midgame economy. i think hes talking about a situation where a protoss attacks with mass zealots with some dt's/sair. the hydras all focus on the zealots while the corsairs kill the overlords allowing the dt's to wreak havok. imo, add a spore if you see it coming.
Not necessary, if you see it coming flood hydras and make 1-2 sunks with sim city, use hydras to kill the sairs, they die fast and/or use sunkens to target DTs
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Should this be used on maps with mineral-only third? Seems like you cant afford lurker switch with only 2 gaz, and once one've gained map control with your hydras, he must seek another way to stop Protoss' midgame push without lurkers, or lose map control AND the hydra army.
Probably, switch to lings earlier and stockpile gas for lurkers?
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Canada2055 Posts
On September 12 2011 03:04 gu-val wrote:
Should this be used on maps with mineral-only third? Seems like you cant afford lurker switch with only 2 gaz, and once one've gained map control with your hydras, he must seek another way to stop Protoss' midgame push without lurkers, or lose map control AND the hydra army.
Probably, switch to lings earlier and stockpile gas for lurkers?
no, dont deny yourself a 3rd gas with any zvp strategy, they all need it
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United States11390 Posts
On September 12 2011 10:33 FyRe_DragOn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 03:04 gu-val wrote:
Should this be used on maps with mineral-only third? Seems like you cant afford lurker switch with only 2 gaz, and once one've gained map control with your hydras, he must seek another way to stop Protoss' midgame push without lurkers, or lose map control AND the hydra army.
Probably, switch to lings earlier and stockpile gas for lurkers? no, dont deny yourself a 3rd gas with any zvp strategy, they all need it
How come you took mineral only third vs Astro in ISL?
Just curious.
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Cool build, but i think a good P can get an advantyge from making a forge expand 2 gate 7 zeal no speed with stargate to foce sunkens, while he taks his third.
Look day[9] daily number 3 or 4 (bisu vs jaedong on destination), and you will see what i mean :D.
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I really don't see how that timing would work, seeing as how the unit building timings for this build would be earlier than 3hatch lair -> 5hatch.
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I never played starcraft 1 before
I used your build
and beat a korean twice.
I love you
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Yea...wow. This build puts so much cash in your hands it almost feels like you can mess up preeeeety damn badly and still faceroll your way through most of the time...assuming even skill of course
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I think I've found out how to counter this build. Due to high eco nature of 5h gas strategy, Z cant afford early game map control (no ling speed) and no runby can be executed (at least on certain maps). Thus, P skimps on defence and doesnt make stargate/mass zealots too (which is exactly what he does vs modern 3 hatch spire), goes directly for his templar, dragoon and zealot army from 6-7 gates. I dont see how Z can fight this without mutas, and there seems to be no way of taking 4th.
All of 5 provided reps are stargate first builds. I guess 5h gas build was initially intended to counter stargate opening, and any non-stargate opening is nice to counter 5h gas. 4gate speedzeal is plain stupid strategy, but fast arhives look fine. Something like citadel, +2 gates, archives, +3 gates is the most obvious way to fight hydra-lurker-ling army. Probably strategy vs non-stargate openings should be more clarified.
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On September 17 2011 06:31 gu-val wrote:
I think I've found out how to counter this build. Due to high eco nature of 5h gas strategy, Z cant afford early game map control (no ling speed) and no runby can be executed (at least on certain maps). Thus, P skimps on defence and doesnt make stargate/mass zealots too (which is exactly what he does vs modern 3 hatch spire), goes directly for his templar, dragoon and zealot army from 6-7 gates. I dont see how Z can fight this without mutas, and there seems to be no way of taking 4th.
All of 5 provided reps are stargate first builds. I guess 5h gas build was initially intended to counter stargate opening, and any non-stargate opening is nice to counter 5h gas. 4gate speedzeal is plain stupid strategy, but fast arhives look fine. Something like citadel, +2 gates, archives, +3 gates is the most obvious way to fight hydra-lurker-ling army. Probably strategy vs non-stargate openings should be more clarified.
Beating what you suggested: Control.
Keep 12 hydras in 2 different locations to snipe all the temps in the back. If they push slow, it's too slow.
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HT sniping doesnt seem like a solution vs non-stargate openings anyway, this is what you do in every game to prevent P from melting your army and isnt strategy-based but rather a micro technique. Also, P might not even push with his army but rather regain map control to take 3th and 4th.
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On September 17 2011 16:41 gu-val wrote:
HT sniping doesnt seem like a solution vs non-stargate openings anyway, this is what you do in every game to prevent P from melting your army and isnt strategy-based but rather a micro technique. Also, P might not even push with his army but rather regain map control to take 3th and 4th.
No, actually it is strategy based. Normally you'd have mutalisks to do this for you. With this build, you have such a surplus of hydras that it is acceptable to sack 12 or so to kill the majority of his templar.
You can't gain map control without... being out on the map. If you're out on the map, your templar are vulnerable to hydra flanks. If you lose those templar the game ends immediately.
Now what IS perfectly viable is using those templar to take a fast third.
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Maybe something is wrong with my macro, but I dont have any hydra surplus vs a build I described above. Storm tech is much faster than my lurkers come out and by this point, P has unreasonable amount of HTs so killing 2 or 3 with hydra pack wont make much difference. What I would like to know, are there any build adjustments so that I'm no longer pushed back by P's midgame army (which is slighty earlier too because of non-stargate opening).
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You're doing something wrong then, post a replay.
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how does toss beat this, i played against this earlier today, do we just have to 4 gate all the damn time? i like the FE a lot, but it seems like with the toss winrate, nothing we do really wins much, is there any way to stop this other than pyloning the 3rd?
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Cant find a replay unfortunately, but will post it once I've encountered this build again (no stargate, citadel into templar tech).but it seems like with the toss winrate, nothing we do really wins much I believe Protoss have 80% winrate in ongoing korean leagues in PvZ and modern zergs are forced to 3h hydra all-in these days due to strategic advantage and map handicaps.
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STOP PLAYING BROODWAR AND COME TO STARCRAFT TWOOOOOO
User was temp banned for this post.
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10387 Posts
Is there a replay of any good Corsair/Reaver users against this strat? I'm curious as to how well this build would fare against the Zealot/Reaver timing attack that's used as a common followup in the pro-scene
also PvZ winrate 80% in Korean leagues wtf? Bisu might have a 80-90% win ration, but the rest of the Protosses are doing somewhat poorly in PvZ nowadays -_-
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TLPD - BW Korean, show games only with vods, statistic from 01 august - 17 september:
(P)JangBi > (Z)n.Die_soO 3:0
(P)By.Sun > (Z)Killer 1:0
(P)By.Sun > (Z)Jaedong 1:0
(P)Stats > (Z)n.Die_soO 1:0
(P)By.Sun > (Z)Action 1:0
(P)Bisu > (Z)Crazy-Hydra 1:0
(P)Jaehoon > (Z)Where 1:0
(P)Tyson < (Z)Where 0:1
(P)sHy < (Z)ZerO 0:1
(P)sHy > (Z)Neo.G_Soulkey 1:0
(P)Jaehoon > (Z)ggaemo 1:0
(P)Brave > (Z)ggaemo 1:0
(P)JangBi < (Z)hyvaa 0:1
(P)Grape < (Z)hyvaa 0:1
12 : 4 or 75% pvz, might be too little but I cant find more korean games in last 1-2 months.
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Hmmm, so what will you do when you face this build yourself, DeuS
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10387 Posts
On September 19 2011 14:34 gu-val wrote:
TLPD - BW Korean, show games only with vods, statistic from 01 august - 17 september:
(P)JangBi > (Z)n.Die_soO 3:0
(P)By.Sun > (Z)Killer 1:0
(P)By.Sun > (Z)Jaedong 1:0
(P)Stats > (Z)n.Die_soO 1:0
(P)By.Sun > (Z)Action 1:0
(P)Bisu > (Z)Crazy-Hydra 1:0
(P)Jaehoon > (Z)Where 1:0
(P)Tyson < (Z)Where 0:1
(P)sHy < (Z)ZerO 0:1
(P)sHy > (Z)Neo.G_Soulkey 1:0
(P)Jaehoon > (Z)ggaemo 1:0
(P)Brave > (Z)ggaemo 1:0
(P)JangBi < (Z)hyvaa 0:1
(P)Grape < (Z)hyvaa 0:1
12 : 4 or 75% pvz, might be too little but I cant find more korean games in last 1-2 months.
because 1 month of games being barely played and Protosses mostly outclassing their opponents is indicative of current PvZ balance. If anything, balance should be looked at least 3 months at a time, but its a huge hassle that TLPD doesn't let you sort all games into specific matchups :l
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http://gosugamers.net/starcraft/replays/15744
The hardest counter to it. Zerg misplayed badly. His macro might be good (1sh2sh3sh is useful talent toi have) but first lurker eggs on minute fourteen is somewhat late. Maybe it was a kind of handicapped game where Z tried to beat toss lategame army with hydras only, dont know. P used pretty standart build which isnt a counter to 5h gas, obviously, but rather 5h gas is intented to counter it, given Z is smart enough to add lurkers/lings/something at certain point, and this is mentioned in noone's post.
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On June 04 2011 04:42 DeuS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 03:17 shinjin wrote:
firstly, i noticed in some reps you overpool, and in the reps on FS you like this 11pool build, which i never considered before and is quite interesting. Do you always 11pool on FS? Yes, I like how it feels more. It gives a slightly better economy and still looks like an overpool, so 99% of protosses will treat it as such. Either way, protoss still needs to make a forge before nexus.
IMHO, I'd prefer overpool. If he scout u first, then u get lings before hatch, if not, get hatch before lings (ok, the pool will be useless for a while). With 11 pool, if he scout u at the first try and he has a semi godlike probe micro then ur nat hatch will be delayed until lings arrive. If he doesn't, ur hatch will be put down a bit earlier (1 or 2 sec, i think) compared to overpool with hatch b4 lings, same drone counts.
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On September 23 2011 10:45 [Cute]Pjnkje wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 04:42 DeuS wrote:On June 04 2011 03:17 shinjin wrote:
firstly, i noticed in some reps you overpool, and in the reps on FS you like this 11pool build, which i never considered before and is quite interesting. Do you always 11pool on FS? Yes, I like how it feels more. It gives a slightly better economy and still looks like an overpool, so 99% of protosses will treat it as such. Either way, protoss still needs to make a forge before nexus. IMHO, I'd prefer overpool. If he scout u first, then u get lings before hatch, if not, get hatch before lings (ok, the pool will be useless for a while). With 11 pool, if he scout u at the first try and he has a semi godlike probe micro then ur nat hatch will be delayed until lings arrive. If he doesn't, ur hatch will be put down a bit earlier (1 or 2 sec, i think) compared to overpool with hatch b4 lings, same drone counts.
It's just preference, do what you want.
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can't the Protoss just go mass cannon, 2 base Zealot/Reaver push when they scout you with sairs?
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I guess the effeciency of overpool/11pool is map-dependent, dont waste time arguing about it. On certain maps I go 9pool every ZvP and I'm fine with it.
vs 2 base Zealot/Reaver, you get lurks before they move out so it is possible to secure 4 and 5 while they are taking 3rd with reavers. I think it is still possible to outmacro P in this situation (however odds are against you if you built many of hydras early) and go straught to ling/ultras off 5 bases.
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On September 23 2011 16:22 gu-val wrote:
I guess the effeciency of overpool/11pool is map-dependent, dont waste time arguing about it. On certain maps I go 9pool every ZvP and I'm fine with it.
vs 2 base Zealot/Reaver, you get lurks before they move out so it is possible to secure 4 and 5 while they are taking 3rd with reavers. I think it is still possible to outmacro P in this situation (however odds are against you if you built many of hydras early) and go straught to ling/ultras off 5 bases.
I don't think lurks would be out in time vs something like that.
On September 23 2011 11:14 Xiphos wrote:
can't the Protoss just go mass cannon, 2 base Zealot/Reaver push when they scout you with sairs?
I don't understand how zealot/reaver would do anything vs mass hydra.
On September 19 2011 17:26 [Cute]Pjnkje wrote:
Hmmm, so what will you do when you face this build yourself, DeuS
No stargate w/ 7-8 speedzeal pressure directly into storm with a fast third.
On September 19 2011 17:40 Phyrigian wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 17:26 [Cute]Pjnkje wrote:
Hmmm, so what will you do when you face this build yourself, DeuS and how should zerg respond to this? or is it just who executes their respective build better in this situation?
Trying to bust the fast third or ignoring it while taking a fast fourth + containing.
It's always who executes their builds better, sc isn't so black and white.
On September 19 2011 11:06 ArvickHero wrote:
Is there a replay of any good Corsair/Reaver users against this strat? I'm curious as to how well this build would fare against the Zealot/Reaver timing attack that's used as a common followup in the pro-scene
also PvZ winrate 80% in Korean leagues wtf? Bisu might have a 80-90% win ration, but the rest of the Protosses are doing somewhat poorly in PvZ nowadays -_-
I don't have one. The only games vs sair/reaver I remember ended with a hydra backstab when toss moved his reavers for harass/to take a third.
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On September 17 2011 06:31 gu-val wrote:
I think I've found out how to counter this build. Due to high eco nature of 5h gas strategy, Z cant afford early game map control (no ling speed) and no runby can be executed (at least on certain maps). Thus, P skimps on defence and doesnt make stargate/mass zealots too (which is exactly what he does vs modern 3 hatch spire), goes directly for his templar, dragoon and zealot army from 6-7 gates. I dont see how Z can fight this without mutas, and there seems to be no way of taking 4th.
All of 5 provided reps are stargate first builds. I guess 5h gas build was initially intended to counter stargate opening, and any non-stargate opening is nice to counter 5h gas. 4gate speedzeal is plain stupid strategy, but fast arhives look fine. Something like citadel, +2 gates, archives, +3 gates is the most obvious way to fight hydra-lurker-ling army. Probably strategy vs non-stargate openings should be more clarified.
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I killed 3 such smarty-pants by hydra-lurk drop. As soon toss comes out with his templar tech, i symply drop hydra and lurks on his main, blocking ramp with eggs.
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I've found drops to be useful in some situations too, but I'm still unsure if it is more effective to simply contain Toss rather than dropping his base. Probably there is a certain timing point when you just cant keep P in bay, unburrow lurks and let him out.
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On September 27 2011 15:15 gu-val wrote:
Probably there is a certain timing point when you just cant keep P in bay, unburrow lurks and let him out.
If his army is really big and I see I could lose my contain, I unburrow lurks and move the hydra/lurk army away, but simultaneously send 6-8 lurks and about 20 hydras over to the side and drop them in his base as soon as I can see with my remaining forces (who are delaying his push as much as they can while setting up lurk/sunk/spore defense fronts at the naturals) that he is much too far from his base to get back in time.
You can usually take his whole base this way while defending your own with sunk/spore/lurk which if done right (snipe them obs!) can be game-ending.
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i really want to master this build, it looks so ridiculous. and i am a sucker for uber macro builds
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United States1434 Posts
Does anyone have the reps included in this thread anymore? I really want to see them.
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EPT
