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[G] 5 Hatch Before Gas ZvP

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next All
LRM)nOoNe
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States231 Posts
June 02 2011 23:49 GMT
#1
Introduction

Hello! I am LRM)nOoNe on iccup. I have been using this build exclusively in zvp for the past four or five months and have had great success with it. It was introduced to me by LRM)Game, but since then I have made a few tweaks to it.

The build focuses on early hatcheries and drones. Instead of using spire tech to deal with protoss's midgame options, you rely on hydralisks. You will eventually have a hydralurk army. You will have absolutely no air control with this build. Your midgame economy will be much stronger than normal. On maps with distant thirds, this build will not work.

Build Order

9 Overlord
9 Spawning Pool
11 Hatchery, scout
10 Six Zerglings
13 Hatchery
18 Overlord
18 Hatchery
27 Hatchery
26 Extractor
25 Extractor
24 Two Overlords
@50 Gas - Hydralisk Den
@100 Gas - Lair

General Notes:

This build only works vs forge expanding protosses.

Don't put your third hatch down until you scout protoss. Larva will build up, but it is necessary to prevent deaths versus 2gate.

All foods not listed are drones. If you don't build up your economy early, you won't be able to produce out of all five hatcheries.

Versus early pressure, such as three zealots, you will need to add on four more zerglings.

You do not get early ling speed. Wait at least until lurkers are out.

Just because you can make hydras doesn't mean you should. Economy is the most important part of this build.

Hydralisk upgrades go: Speed->Range->Lurkers. You CAN NOT fall behind on these upgrades. Lurkers come out at a very key time.

Differences From Normal Play:

You do not have a spire, meaning protoss has complete vision of what you are doing. This means that protoss does not need to build defense versus the threat of mutalisks. Also, once there is a threat of drops from the protoss, you should leave hydralisks at each base to defend until you get a spire.

You do not have ling speed unless you open with a build that gets it. This means it's impossible to completely shut down scouting versus a protoss player with good probe control. This also means that the threat of a ling allin is small.

Your midgame army will be larger than normal. However, you do not have the luxury of templar sniping with mutalisks. You must tactically position your hydralisks behind a moving protoss army to snipe templar. You can not engage a protoss army that has a large number of templar in it.

Reacting to Scouting Information

You should have an overlord in protoss's main. On two player maps, it is unnecessary to drone scout. On three or four player maps, you need to drone scout to avoid stupid deaths versus 1base protoss.

Vs Early Stargate into Templar Tech:

Make only a few hydralisks to hold off the corsairs. Making more does not serve any purpose, as early attacks will be shut down by storm. Make a few more rounds of drones and then start hydralisk production.

Vs Early Stargate into Templar Tech with a fast third

You have two options here. You can flood with hydralisks to try to prevent the third, or you can ignore it and quickly take a fourth. Only try to bust it if his zealot count is low and you are confident in your storm dodging.

Vs Early Stargate with mass Corsair into Templar Tech

Make ~18 hydralisks to hold off the corsairs. Send zerglings to all the possible places for him to expand. If you see he isn't expanding, expect a mass zealot followup. If he does expand, add on a few more hydralisks and take a fourth base. Alternatively, you can try to mass hydralisks and shut down the third. However, if you lose your hydralisks to storm, your overlords will be exposed.

Vs Early Stargate into 2-4 Gate Zealot

You will most likely need to build 1-2 sunks at your natural and third versus this build. Flood hydralisks as soon as your hydralisk den finishes. Once you have held off his attack and have a comfortable number of hydralisks, you can push out. If he didn't switch to templar tech fast enough or built a good number of cannons, you can end the game here. If he took a third and has no cannons or templars there, kill it. If he took a third and has cannons or templar there, do not try to break it as you will only waste. Instead, switch back to drone production and take a fourth while containing him. If he didn't try to take his third but has cannons or templar in his natural, switch back to drone production and take a fourth while containing him.

Vs Early Stargate with mass Corsair and 2gate mass Zealot (Neo Bisu Build)

Make two sunks at your natural and third and flood hydralisks. Because his templar tech is very delayed, you can win in this situation simply by attacking once you have a large enough hydralisk force. Make sure you bring your overlords in the attack so spawning dark templar do not force you back. See my game vs dsaqwe at the bottom for a good reference.

Vs Early Stargate with mass Corsair and Reaver

Keep at least six hydralisks at each base to defend, do not move these unless the shuttle has died.

Vs Double Early Stargate

Go kill him.

Vs No Stargate 4gate Speedzeal

Make 2-3 sunkens at your natural and third and flood hydralisks. Make sure you have overlords everywhere versus this build. You need to check if he is taking a third or adding on more gateways. If he continues adding on gateways, do not drone up and do not take a fourth. Focus on units and getting lurkers out as soon as possible. If he takes a fast third, you can either mass hydralisks and try to bust it, or drone up and wait for lurkers to take a fourth.

Upgrades

I add on two evolution chambers as soon as I feel safe in the midgame. I get +1 Missile and +1 Carapace, then +1 Melee and +2 Carapace.

Hive Timing

Until only recently, I have been making my queen's nest at the same time I make my fourth expansion. However, I was being killed right before my hive tech kicked in. For the past week or two, I have been adding on two more hatcheries before my queens nest for a total of eight. Once my fourth base finishes and has been saturated, I take my fifth and add on another two hatcheries in my main for a total of eleven. I do not make any ultralisks until I have five fully saturated bases. If I start earlier, many of my hatcheries will have idle larva.

Maps

You can only use this build on maps with a close third. If it's too far away, it becomes very difficult to defend zealots or corsairs.

Examples of good maps: Fighting Spirit, Icarus, Empire of the Sun (horizontal spawn), Blue Storm, Heartbreak Ridge, Tau Cross, Destination, etc.

Example Games

http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=42209 LRM)nOoNe vs NrG.DraGon (A-)
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=42210 LRM)nOoNe vs NrG.DraGon (A-)
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=42211 LRM)nOoNe vs dsaqwe (B)
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=42212 LRM)nOoNe vs TriX_PL (B+)
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=42213 LRM)nOoNe vs ToT)iNfeRnaL( (A-)
Ryshi
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
Canada361 Posts
June 03 2011 00:04 GMT
#2
Nice, I like it. Very clear and well written.
The World God Only Knows
Crunchums
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States11144 Posts
June 03 2011 00:05 GMT
#3
have you ever seen a pro use this build?
brood war for life, brood war forever
LRM)nOoNe
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States231 Posts
June 03 2011 00:21 GMT
#4
On June 03 2011 09:05 Crunchums wrote:
have you ever seen a pro use this build?

No, nor have I seen anyone else use this build.
Apparently Ahzz and ChOseN used it frequently, but I have not seen replays from them.
Zyferous
Profile Joined September 2010
United States270 Posts
June 03 2011 01:17 GMT
#5
This build sounds very similar to the 4 hatch before gas build. Any notable differences, or is this just a more up to date form of it?
Jaedong forever.
Trozz
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Canada3456 Posts
June 03 2011 01:40 GMT
#6
I like play like this.
It's an extreme with a goal.
I'll try this for sure!
A build is not a guess, an estimation or a hunch, a feeling, or a foolish intuition. A build is a dependable, unwavering, unarguably accurate, portrayer of your ambition.
zobz
Profile Joined November 2005
Canada2175 Posts
June 03 2011 02:33 GMT
#7
Oh my god Infernal is incredible. Really nice game, that. And interesting strategy. You didn't have any scourge though for obvious reasons in any of those games, so I'd expect shuttle play to be your weakness. I also noticed that you have a possibly vulnerable timing against Infernal, I think simply because he powered zealots for so long off of two base. Your lurkers were late against that strategy and he could have gained map control instead of being contained, forced you to chase him around the map etc. defending your 4th while he tries to take a third. All easier said than done I'm sure.
"That's not gonna be good for business." "That's not gonna be good for anybody."
Zariel
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Australia1285 Posts
June 03 2011 03:13 GMT
#8
Wait wait.... so do u take like 5, 4 or 3 bases in total with those 5 hatcheries

sup
0mgVitaminE
Profile Joined February 2009
United States1278 Posts
June 03 2011 03:16 GMT
#9
Sounds really cool, will definitely try it out sometime.
Hi there. I'm in a cave, how bout you?
endy
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Switzerland8970 Posts
June 03 2011 03:49 GMT
#10
On June 03 2011 12:13 Zariel wrote:
Wait wait.... so do u take like 5, 4 or 3 bases in total with those 5 hatcheries



I think the guide clearly says 3.
ॐ
Release
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States4397 Posts
June 03 2011 05:13 GMT
#11
tried this against 7 protoss CPU. Needless to say i lost pretty quick

In all seriousness, when i tried this, i kept losing to shuttle harassment because i suck at dealing with that.
☺
shinjin
Profile Joined January 2010
United States398 Posts
June 03 2011 05:39 GMT
#12
alright i just tried this build, it feels like the best thing ever to pump that many drones and build that many hatcheries lollll its really refreshing LOL i dont know how to explain it

i watched your replays too, and i just think this build is really solid overall, sure it has vulnerable windows but every build does, and i feel that the times when you are vulnerable are times that most standard protoss players wont expect

corsair reaver play would be quite difficult to deal with but not many players have the skill to pull it off well anymore : /
give it one more try because the best things in life dont come free.
JMave
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Singapore1806 Posts
June 03 2011 06:05 GMT
#13
I think this build is very versatile. Because most Ps won't be able to recognise the difference between a 4 hatch b4 gas and a 5 hatch b4 gas, this will probably work very well.

Considering how you can easily hide your 5th hatch from his sight, he will most likely rush to templar tech and not do neo-Bisu, which can either give you room to expand or to mass up to attack.
火心 Jealous. I always loved that feeling when I was young. Embrace it.
De4ngus
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States6533 Posts
June 03 2011 09:43 GMT
#14
On June 03 2011 09:21 DeuS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 03 2011 09:05 Crunchums wrote:
have you ever seen a pro use this build?

No, nor have I seen anyone else use this build.
Apparently Ahzz and ChOseN used it frequently, but I have not seen replays from them.

Yeah, I actually remember watching an Ahzz fpvod of this build.
GANDHISAUCE
kolona
Profile Joined May 2011
Ukraine16 Posts
June 03 2011 10:01 GMT
#15
finally. i was trying to make some build like this one. thanks to author. mass hydra in mid game can be exteremly effective vs toss especially on map like python or aztec,where there are open territories in the center, and of course there is an option for dropping to toss main 24 hydralisk to eliminate the key buildings for his bo and gates, it really can slow him
Keep the formation!
shinjin
Profile Joined January 2010
United States398 Posts
June 03 2011 10:17 GMT
#16
On June 03 2011 19:01 kolona wrote:
finally. i was trying to make some build like this one. thanks to author. mass hydra in mid game can be exteremly effective vs toss especially on map like python or aztec,where there are open territories in the center, and of course there is an option for dropping to toss main 24 hydralisk to eliminate the key buildings for his bo and gates, it really can slow him


er....what? how does what your saying have any relation to this build : /
which would suck terribly on python and does not involve a drop of any sort -.-
give it one more try because the best things in life dont come free.
hellbound
Profile Joined April 2010
United Kingdom2242 Posts
June 03 2011 11:12 GMT
#17
Isn't this extremely similar to 4hat before gas? You take first gas later but the second earlier, doesn't this work out with a similar amount of gas and hatcheries? I realise that since you start teching later you can squeeze in more drones, but is there some more profound difference I am not seeing?

Anyway thanks for sharing Noone.
kolona
Profile Joined May 2011
Ukraine16 Posts
June 03 2011 11:52 GMT
#18
On June 03 2011 19:17 shinjin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 03 2011 19:01 kolona wrote:
finally. i was trying to make some build like this one. thanks to author. mass hydra in mid game can be exteremly effective vs toss especially on map like python or aztec,where there are open territories in the center, and of course there is an option for dropping to toss main 24 hydralisk to eliminate the key buildings for his bo and gates, it really can slow him


er....what? how does what your saying have any relation to this build : /
which would suck terribly on python and does not involve a drop of any sort -.-


python has remote third? well, for me it is quite near....
it is nice to drop, if you see that he can go out(have enough army, obs and storms). drop and def, expecting hive units. of course it is difficuilt, but still possible to drop when he has no many corsairs. actually, problem with his drop and corsair can be solved by quenn's ensnare and paraziting, when drop is expected, it is failed and slow landing will be much less effective.
Keep the formation!
kolona
Profile Joined May 2011
Ukraine16 Posts
June 03 2011 12:39 GMT
#19
On June 03 2011 08:49 DeuS wrote:
Introduction

Hello! I am LRM)nOoNe on iccup. I have been using this build exclusively in zvp for the past four or five months and have had great success with it. It was introduced to me by LRM)Game, but since then I have made a few tweaks to it.

The build focuses on early hatcheries and drones. Instead of using spire tech to deal with protoss's midgame options, you rely on hydralisks. You will eventually have a hydralurk army. You will have absolutely no air control with this build. Your midgame economy will be much stronger than normal. On maps with distant thirds, this build will not work.

Build Order

9 Overlord
9 Spawning Pool
11 Hatchery, scout
10 Six Zerglings
13 Hatchery
18 Overlord
18 Hatchery
27 Hatchery
26 Extractor
25 Extractor
24 Two Overlords
@50 Gas - Hydralisk Den
@100 Gas - Lair

General Notes:

This build only works vs forge expanding protosses.

Don't put your third hatch down until you scout protoss. Larva will build up, but it is necessary to prevent deaths versus 2gate.

All foods not listed are drones. If you don't build up your economy early, you won't be able to produce out of all five hatcheries.

Versus early pressure, such as three zealots, you will need to add on four more zerglings.

You do not get early ling speed. Wait at least until lurkers are out.

Just because you can make hydras doesn't mean you should. Economy is the most important part of this build.

Hydralisk upgrades go: Speed->Range->Lurkers. You CAN NOT fall behind on these upgrades. Lurkers come out at a very key time.

Differences From Normal Play:

You do not have a spire, meaning protoss has complete vision of what you are doing. This means that protoss does not need to build defense versus the threat of mutalisks. Also, once there is a threat of drops from the protoss, you should leave hydralisks at each base to defend until you get a spire.

You do not have ling speed unless you open with a build that gets it. This means it's impossible to completely shut down scouting versus a protoss player with good probe control. This also means that the threat of a ling allin is small.

Your midgame army will be larger than normal. However, you do not have the luxury of templar sniping with mutalisks. You must tactically position your hydralisks behind a moving protoss army to snipe templar. You can not engage a protoss army that has a large number of templar in it.

Reacting to Scouting Information

You should have an overlord in protoss's main. On two player maps, it is unnecessary to drone scout. On three or four player maps, you need to drone scout to avoid stupid deaths versus 1base protoss.

Vs Early Stargate into Templar Tech:

Make only a few hydralisks to hold off the corsairs. Making more does not serve any purpose, as early attacks will be shut down by storm. Make a few more rounds of drones and then start hydralisk production.

Vs Early Stargate into Templar Tech with a fast third

You have two options here. You can flood with hydralisks to try to prevent the third, or you can ignore it and quickly take a fourth. Only try to bust it if his zealot count is low and you are confident in your storm dodging.

Vs Early Stargate with mass Corsair into Templar Tech

Make ~18 hydralisks to hold off the corsairs. Send zerglings to all the possible places for him to expand. If you see he isn't expanding, expect a mass zealot followup. If he does expand, add on a few more hydralisks and take a fourth base. Alternatively, you can try to mass hydralisks and shut down the third. However, if you lose your hydralisks to storm, your overlords will be exposed.

Vs Early Stargate into 2-4 Gate Zealot

You will most likely need to build 1-2 sunks at your natural and third versus this build. Flood hydralisks as soon as your hydralisk den finishes. Once you have held off his attack and have a comfortable number of hydralisks, you can push out. If he didn't switch to templar tech fast enough or built a good number of cannons, you can end the game here. If he took a third and has no cannons or templars there, kill it. If he took a third and has cannons or templar there, do not try to break it as you will only waste. Instead, switch back to drone production and take a fourth while containing him. If he didn't try to take his third but has cannons or templar in his natural, switch back to drone production and take a fourth while containing him.

Vs Early Stargate with mass Corsair and 2gate mass Zealot (Neo Bisu Build)

Make two sunks at your natural and third and flood hydralisks. Because his templar tech is very delayed, you can win in this situation simply by attacking once you have a large enough hydralisk force. Make sure you bring your overlords in the attack so spawning dark templar do not force you back. See my game vs dsaqwe at the bottom for a good reference.

Vs Early Stargate with mass Corsair and Reaver

Keep at least six hydralisks at each base to defend, do not move these unless the shuttle has died.

Vs Double Early Stargate

Go kill him.

Vs No Stargate 4gate Speedzeal

Make 2-3 sunkens at your natural and third and flood hydralisks. Make sure you have overlords everywhere versus this build. You need to check if he is taking a third or adding on more gateways. If he continues adding on gateways, do not drone up and do not take a fourth. Focus on units and getting lurkers out as soon as possible. If he takes a fast third, you can either mass hydralisks and try to bust it, or drone up and wait for lurkers to take a fourth.

Upgrades

I add on two evolution chambers as soon as I feel safe in the midgame. I get +1 Missile and +1 Carapace, then +1 Melee and +2 Carapace.

Hive Timing

Until only recently, I have been making my queen's nest at the same time I make my fourth expansion. However, I was being killed right before my hive tech kicked in. For the past week or two, I have been adding on two more hatcheries before my queens nest for a total of eight. Once my fourth base finishes and has been saturated, I take my fifth and add on another two hatcheries in my main for a total of eleven. I do not make any ultralisks until I have five fully saturated bases. If I start earlier, many of my hatcheries will have idle larva.

Maps

You can only use this build on maps with a close third. If it's too far away, it becomes very difficult to defend zealots or corsairs.

Examples of good maps: Fighting Spirit, Icarus, Empire of the Sun (horizontal spawn), Blue Storm, Heartbreak Ridge, Tau Cross, Destination, etc.

Example Games

http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=42209 LRM)nOoNe vs NrG.DraGon (A-)
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=42210 LRM)nOoNe vs NrG.DraGon (A-)
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=42211 LRM)nOoNe vs dsaqwe (B)
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=42212 LRM)nOoNe vs TriX_PL (B+)
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=42213 LRM)nOoNe vs ToT)iNfeRnaL( (A-)


what about building 2nd den right after lair? it will allow to make distance for hydra and lurks simultaneously
Keep the formation!
SluGGer
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada50 Posts
June 03 2011 14:08 GMT
#20
It sounds legit although my main issue would be dealing with fast sairs, obviously you would be able to get hydras out but I think a good enough protoss should be able to harass enough where as you have to spend economy on spore colonies.

On another note if it can indeed deal with fast sairs like you said. There would be a timing where if protoss went straight zealot he could probably finish the game. Even on a normal 5 hatch hydra there's a timing protoss can use to attack when zerg has too few units. Spending that much economy that early makes it even more risky
I want to plague all over your face.
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