EPT[G] 5 Hatch Before Gas ZvP - Page 3
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ghrur
United States3787 Posts
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LRM)nOoNe
United States231 Posts
The main issue that I had at the start was not positioning my hydralisks properly. For example, if there were 6 sairs in my nat causing problems, I'd send everything there to deal with it and leave my third vulnerable. This would cause problems because he has more mobility than me. I've learned to spread my hydras properly, so I don't have that issue anymore. | ||
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nbaker
United States1342 Posts
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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almond
115 Posts
With no scourages and such a delayed ovie speed, aren't you playing blind for a long time after protoss gets a dragoon out? | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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LRM)nOoNe
United States231 Posts
On June 07 2011 10:42 almond wrote: Great guide. But I have one question. With no scourages and such a delayed ovie speed, aren't you playing blind for a long time after protoss gets a dragoon out? You should always play safe. You don't really need to pin him on a build because your response against all of them is.. hydras. When I'm completely blind, I make 18 hydras before I do anything else regarding powering. I have never encountered a situation where by that point I am still blind. Either way, most of the time you will be able to see his tech before his goon kills your overlord. If not, you can dance zerglings at his front to try to decipher his build. On June 07 2011 11:23 krndandaman wrote: yea. now that i think about it... would a nicely timed goon-allin after forge FE work? i do acknowledge the power of 5hatcheries and the hardcore droning the whole time, but when more than a dozen ranged goons show up just a tiny bit after the den finishes, wouldnt that kill a no lingspeed zerg who is just starting hydra production? idk this is just theorycrafting but it'd be nice to see someone try this That's not how the timing works. It's not like vs 3h spire 5h hydra where it hits just as hydra production begins, you will have at least 2 control groups of hydras. | ||
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tryummm
774 Posts
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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Game
3191 Posts
On June 07 2011 12:01 tryummm wrote: I don't think, from the replays, you would have won very many games if you played against a properly timed 2 base 8 gateway goon/zealot/templar/archon/sair bust. It seemed like you economy was actually pretty weak in the later stages of the game due to your over excessive hydra production (You are producing way more hydralisks that you need imho and you could get some more tech/drones). The only hard counter I'm aware of is a very well controlled all templar (1 sair to keep scouting) 8 gate 110 protoss build where they just save 400 minerals for their 3rd after they bust. Replay example (shameless plug of person who invented the b/o countering his own student with it): http://gosugamers.net/starcraft/replays/15744 | ||
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LRM)nOoNe
United States231 Posts
On June 07 2011 12:03 krndandaman wrote: that's the +1 goon timing attack im not gonna say any more becuz this is all theoretical atm and i most definitely can be wrong but i think there is a possible timing. either way, im loving the theorycrafting again. the last time i was this interested in a new build was the U-21 rax cc opening Not sure what you're talking about then. On June 07 2011 12:01 tryummm wrote: I don't think, from the replays, you would have won very many games if you played against a properly timed 2 base 8 gateway goon/zealot/templar/archon/sair bust. It seemed like you economy was actually pretty weak in the later stages of the game due to your over excessive hydra production (You are producing way more hydralisks that you need imho and you could get some more tech/drones). The replays do not reflect my current lategame follow-through. They outline the opening, which is all I was really aiming for. If I see protoss does not plan to take a third, I take my fourth base and add on two more hatches (for a total of 8). I do not drone up my fourth base until I have held off his attack. 8 hatchery production is very capable of holding 2base 8gw. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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LRM)nOoNe
United States231 Posts
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erikzbi
China43 Posts
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On June 07 2011 12:03 krndandaman wrote: that's the +1 goon timing attack im not gonna say any more becuz this is all theoretical atm and i most definitely can be wrong but i think there is a possible timing. Could you elaborate a little more on this? I'm curious what kind of replays you have that might reflect this style. I can confirm that most standard builds do not work properly against the timings of 5 hatch hydra after 5 hatch before gas. The "standard" move-out time vs 3 base spire 5 hatch is much too late and unprepared for the mass hydra soon-to-be hydra/lurker waiting for them outside. I'd be interested to see a hard-counter timing opening. depends. if protoss found out you are doing such an economic play, he will do sth like 2 gate and how is he going to change his build suddenly to a 2 gate while scouting? 4 scout? 5 scout? the timing of the forge FE would not allow you to "suddenly change" after seeing several hatches going down. Either that or you just have the worst opening build timing in all of history since apparently you still have time to transition from an FE to a 2 gate AFTER you see the 4th/5th hatches going down. | ||
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LRM)nOoNe
United States231 Posts
If you are talking about forge fe with a second gate instead of a core, you have one window where you need to do major damage. If you don't, your templar tech is too late and you die. The other issue is that if you do elect to get second gw instead of a core, it is very obvious. | ||
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Navane
Netherlands2763 Posts
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almond
115 Posts
On June 07 2011 11:54 DeuS wrote: You should always play safe. You don't really need to pin him on a build because your response against all of them is.. hydras. When I'm completely blind, I make 18 hydras before I do anything else regarding powering. I have never encountered a situation where by that point I am still blind. Either way, most of the time you will be able to see his tech before his goon kills your overlord. If not, you can dance zerglings at his front to try to decipher his build. So with this build, even if you blindly make 18 hydras, you still have a better midgame economy than 3 spire 5 hydra? | ||
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LRM)nOoNe
United States231 Posts
On June 08 2011 09:23 almond wrote: So with this build, even if you blindly make 18 hydras, you still have a better midgame economy than 3 spire 5 hydra? Yes, much stronger. It's at least 10 more drones. | ||
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almond
115 Posts
Thanksss. | ||
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