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On June 03 2011 21:39 kolona wrote:
what about building 2nd den right after lair? it will allow to make distance for hydra and lurks simultaneously
You can't start lurkers immediately anyway, your lair is very late.
On June 03 2011 20:12 hellbound wrote:
Isn't this extremely similar to 4hat before gas? You take first gas later but the second earlier, doesn't this work out with a similar amount of gas and hatcheries? I realise that since you start teching later you can squeeze in more drones, but is there some more profound difference I am not seeing?
Anyway thanks for sharing Noone.
They're similar in the sense that they're focusing on economy and later tech. This build just delays the tech even more for an even larger economy.
On June 03 2011 19:17 shinjin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 19:01 kolona wrote:
finally. i was trying to make some build like this one. thanks to author. mass hydra in mid game can be exteremly effective vs toss especially on map like python or aztec,where there are open territories in the center, and of course there is an option for dropping to toss main 24 hydralisk to eliminate the key buildings for his bo and gates, it really can slow him er....what? how does what your saying have any relation to this build : / which would suck terribly on python and does not involve a drop of any sort -.-
If my opponent is cross map or close air positions, I don't mind this build on python. If it's 12 vs 9 or 2 vs 6 I wouldn't recommend doing it.
On June 03 2011 14:39 shinjin wrote:
alright i just tried this build, it feels like the best thing ever to pump that many drones and build that many hatcheries lollll its really refreshing LOL i dont know how to explain it
i watched your replays too, and i just think this build is really solid overall, sure it has vulnerable windows but every build does, and i feel that the times when you are vulnerable are times that most standard protoss players wont expect
corsair reaver play would be quite difficult to deal with but not many players have the skill to pull it off well anymore : /
Can you elaborate on the vulnerable windows? I don't really feel vulnerable at any point. The main problem I was having was teching to hive too fast, but I've fixed that. Against sair reaver, just defend and make drones. As long as you don't get too aggressive and waste hydralisks it shouldn't be a problem
On June 03 2011 14:13 Release wrote:
tried this against 7 protoss CPU. Needless to say i lost pretty quick
In all seriousness, when i tried this, i kept losing to shuttle harassment because i suck at dealing with that.
I do too, something I need to work on.
On June 03 2011 12:13 Zariel wrote:
Wait wait.... so do u take like 5, 4 or 3 bases in total with those 5 hatcheries
3
On June 03 2011 11:33 zobz wrote:
Oh my god Infernal is incredible. Really nice game, that. And interesting strategy. You didn't have any scourge though for obvious reasons in any of those games, so I'd expect shuttle play to be your weakness. I also noticed that you have a possibly vulnerable timing against Infernal, I think simply because he powered zealots for so long off of two base. Your lurkers were late against that strategy and he could have gained map control instead of being contained, forced you to chase him around the map etc. defending your 4th while he tries to take a third. All easier said than done I'm sure.
It's a hole in my play, I definitely should be getting scourge earlier. Regarding the zealots, I assume you mean when I was morphing the lurkers. He can push out, but if I position my remaining hydralisks correctly I get free templar. I definitely should have spread my lurker eggs out though incase I did screw up the hydralisk flank. If he does run around the map I can simply counter his natural and win immediately, I do it pretty often.
On June 03 2011 10:17 Zyferous wrote:
This build sounds very similar to the 4 hatch before gas build. Any notable differences, or is this just a more up to date form of it?
Tech is delayed by quite a bit more, but your economy is also stronger.
On June 03 2011 23:08 SluGGer wrote:
It sounds legit although my main issue would be dealing with fast sairs, obviously you would be able to get hydras out but I think a good enough protoss should be able to harass enough where as you have to spend economy on spore colonies.
On another note if it can indeed deal with fast sairs like you said. There would be a timing where if protoss went straight zealot he could probably finish the game. Even on a normal 5 hatch hydra there's a timing protoss can use to attack when zerg has too few units. Spending that much economy that early makes it even more risky
Fast corsair issue: Simply not the case. You will lose at most 1 overlord assuming you did make your gas/den on time. One issue is that if protoss manages to mess you up early with zealot harass, the den can get pushed back which can lead to death by corsairs.
Fast Sair into Zealot: Check my game vs dsaqwe, it's suicide to do that vs my build. If you mean skipping stargate completely for a 4gate speedzeal, I addressed that in the guide. There is a window but you can still remain safe + have a good economy through sunks/simcity. Plus, if he delayed his templar tech too much he can die outright.
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I'm assuming you put down the spire right when lair finishes, right?
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On June 03 2011 23:16 koreasilver wrote:
I'm assuming you put down the spire right when lair finishes, right?
When the lair finishes you won't have the money to do it, it would need to be some time after.
A good timing is probably around when you're taking your fourth, I'm stubborn about it and prefer to just leave hydralisks at home to deal with it. Again, it's a hole in my play that I need to fix, though I definitely wouldn't say it's a problem with the build.
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"Vs Double Early Stargate
Go kill him. "
i loled
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On June 03 2011 23:08 SluGGer wrote:
It sounds legit although my main issue would be dealing with fast sairs, obviously you would be able to get hydras out but I think a good enough protoss should be able to harass enough where as you have to spend economy on spore colonies.
On another note if it can indeed deal with fast sairs like you said. There would be a timing where if protoss went straight zealot he could probably finish the game. Even on a normal 5 hatch hydra there's a timing protoss can use to attack when zerg has too few units. Spending that much economy that early makes it even more risky
yeah but, the earlier you get your hatches the earlier you can start macroing up your hydras. so its good timing unless protoss does very fast.
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On June 03 2011 18:43 De4ngus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 09:21 DeuS wrote:On June 03 2011 09:05 Crunchums wrote:
have you ever seen a pro use this build? No, nor have I seen anyone else use this build. Apparently Ahzz and ChOseN used it frequently, but I have not seen replays from them. Yeah, I actually remember watching an Ahzz fpvod of this build.
First off, I'm glad this guide has taken off so well. Secondly, (shameless plug) ChOseN and Ahzz as my students had their spins on the original b/o that isn't quite listed, so the best way to see it besides nOoNe's replays would be to download ChOseN replays or see it in Ahzz's FPVods.
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How would this fare against a strong push such as 4 gateway 2 archon?
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On June 04 2011 01:51 AuxPriest wrote:
How would this fare against a strong push such as 4 gateway 2 archon?
No high temps = autodeath. Both if they push, and if they waste their first HTs on archons.
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when I executed this build(possibly/probably incorrectly), I pretty much started flooding hydras at about 6:20, and the average 6 zealot +1/speed upped attk hits at around 6:50 IIRC, so it really throws off tosses who are used to playing against 3 hat spire to 5 hat play, where hydras actually come out a bit later.
Can you elaborate on a few things noone?
I could watch the reps again and again : /
firstly, i noticed in some reps you overpool, and in the reps on FS you like this 11pool build, which i never considered before and is quite interesting. Do you always 11pool on FS?
How many drones do you transfer to your third, and when is the proper timing to transfer them lol
When do you start adding zerglings to the army/get ling speed
What should the ratio of hydra to lurker be?
(btw loved that sick maneuver where you lured dragon to his 3rd then came around behind and sniped his hts, plus the lurker egg ramp block was pretty sick)
I honestly think im actually NOT pumping enough drones or something, I think I need to make minimal hydras to hold off sairs and then pump another few rounds...hmm
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shinjin, the original build order was 11pool 8 lings for a runby or to contain the first 2 zealots to buy time to mass drone up, since you take your 3rd right away and have more economy.
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On June 04 2011 03:17 shinjin wrote:
firstly, i noticed in some reps you overpool, and in the reps on FS you like this 11pool build, which i never considered before and is quite interesting. Do you always 11pool on FS?
Yes, I like how it feels more. It gives a slightly better economy and still looks like an overpool, so 99% of protosses will treat it as such. Either way, protoss still needs to make a forge before nexus.
On June 04 2011 03:17 shinjin wrote:
How many drones do you transfer to your third, and when is the proper timing to transfer them
3 to my natural, 3 to my third. Depends on the map for when to transfer them, but that's something you can easily test yourself.
On June 04 2011 03:17 shinjin wrote:
When do you start adding zerglings to the army/get ling speed
I add on zerglings and get zergling speed around when lurkers are finished morphing.
On June 04 2011 03:17 shinjin wrote:
What should the ratio of hydra to lurker be?
Don't think in ratios, get as many lurkers as you can afford. I usually make ~24 lurkers per game.
On June 04 2011 03:17 shinjin wrote:
(btw loved that sick maneuver where you lured dragon to his 3rd then came around behind and sniped his hts, plus the lurker egg ramp block was pretty sick)
:D
If you want feedback, feel free to pm me here or message me on iccup.
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On June 03 2011 23:08 DeuS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 21:39 kolona wrote:
what about building 2nd den right after lair? it will allow to make distance for hydra and lurks simultaneously You can't start lurkers immediately anyway, your lair is very late.
Yes, but you say about Hydralisk upgrades : Speed->Range->Lurkers. Won't lurkers come earlier, if
you make speed for hydra in first den, and lurkers in second, while range in the first one after Speed is finished?
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On June 03 2011 09:05 Crunchums wrote:
have you ever seen a pro use this build?
And who are the pro? Jaedong and Zer0 only and other korean machines with 400 apm? BTW, Action did this, here is the link:
http://kiwi.kz/watch/5sb4ywb81j4x/
I watched many last replays and vods, and zerg fails very often using standard 3 hatch lair and spire.
Actually, toss wins more often than zerg does in case of using spire.
Even if zerg kills corsair toss build more, and all this ends all the same by protecting drones from storm/reaver drops by hydra, so what makes difference(bisu vs zero or bisu vs jaedong).
PS: can anyone give me a link to 4 hatch build?
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On June 04 2011 05:16 kolona wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 23:08 DeuS wrote:On June 03 2011 21:39 kolona wrote:
what about building 2nd den right after lair? it will allow to make distance for hydra and lurks simultaneously You can't start lurkers immediately anyway, your lair is very late. Yes, but you say about Hydralisk upgrades : Speed->Range->Lurkers. Won't lurkers come earlier, if you make speed for hydra in first den, and lurkers in second, while range in the first one after Speed is finished?
Besides, perhaps, making distance before speed seem to be more effective versus corsairs and speedlots rushes
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On June 04 2011 05:28 kolona wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 05:16 kolona wrote:On June 03 2011 23:08 DeuS wrote:On June 03 2011 21:39 kolona wrote:
what about building 2nd den right after lair? it will allow to make distance for hydra and lurks simultaneously You can't start lurkers immediately anyway, your lair is very late. Yes, but you say about Hydralisk upgrades : Speed->Range->Lurkers. Won't lurkers come earlier, if you make speed for hydra in first den, and lurkers in second, while range in the first one after Speed is finished? Besides, perhaps, making distance before speed seem to be more effective versus corsairs and speedlots rushes
Needs to be speed first so you can reinforce between your natural and third quickly.
On June 04 2011 05:25 kolona wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 09:05 Crunchums wrote:
have you ever seen a pro use this build? And who are the pro? Jaedong and Zer0 only and other korean machines with 400 apm? BTW, Action did this, here is the link: http://kiwi.kz/watch/5sb4ywb81j4x/I watched many last replays and vods, and zerg fails very often using standard 3 hatch lair and spire. Actually, toss wins more often than zerg does in case of using spire. Even if zerg kills corsair toss build more, and all this ends all the same by protecting drones from storm/reaver drops by hydra, so what makes difference(bisu vs zero or bisu vs jaedong). PS: can anyone give me a link to 4 hatch build?
I don't understand your first two questions. Action did not use my build at all.
There's nothing wrong with 3h spire 5h hydra, it's just a stylistic choice.
I heard hero used a 4 hatch build on dante's peak se recently, but I didn't watch it.
LP page on 4 hatch: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/4_Hatch_Lair_(vs._Protoss)
On June 04 2011 05:16 kolona wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 23:08 DeuS wrote:On June 03 2011 21:39 kolona wrote:
what about building 2nd den right after lair? it will allow to make distance for hydra and lurks simultaneously You can't start lurkers immediately anyway, your lair is very late. Yes, but you say about Hydralisk upgrades : Speed->Range->Lurkers. Won't lurkers come earlier, if you make speed for hydra in first den, and lurkers in second, while range in the first one after Speed is finished?
Well.. yes, but it's not worth it. You're tight on resources at that point, it's not until later that you have an economic boom.
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On June 04 2011 05:16 kolona wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 23:08 DeuS wrote:On June 03 2011 21:39 kolona wrote:
what about building 2nd den right after lair? it will allow to make distance for hydra and lurks simultaneously You can't start lurkers immediately anyway, your lair is very late. Yes, but you say about Hydralisk upgrades : Speed->Range->Lurkers. Won't lurkers come earlier, if you make speed for hydra in first den, and lurkers in second, while range in the first one after Speed is finished?
You don't seem to understand how this build looks yet. Watch the replays or the VODs or the FPVODs. They all will clearly show you how this build is supposed to flow. You're still proposing that lurker tech and speed will somehow be able to be researched simultaneously when lair isn't done. Also you shouldn't rush tech switches, they have to flow into one or another or there's a huge gap in map control. Giving a lategame protoss map control is suicide.
This can be dangerous if toss goes 2 gate or proxy gates...Though, of course, zerg can build hatch on ramp and try to block, but still it can be risky
Why would you build on ramp...? That makes no sense. The economy of an 11pool is better than an overpool which can defend both opening builds you mentioned quite easily in capable hands. Only thing better is 12 pool and 12 hatch which only increase your odds of success.
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On June 04 2011 03:17 shinjin wrote:
firstly, i noticed in some reps you overpool, and in the reps on FS you like this 11pool build, which i never considered before and is quite interesting. Do you always 11pool on FS?
This can be dangerous if toss goes 2 gate or proxy gates...Though, of course, zerg can build hatch
on ramp and try to block, but still it can be risky
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On June 04 2011 05:42 kolona wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 03:17 shinjin wrote:
firstly, i noticed in some reps you overpool, and in the reps on FS you like this 11pool build, which i never considered before and is quite interesting. Do you always 11pool on FS?
This can be dangerous if toss goes 2 gate or proxy gates...Though, of course, zerg can build hatch on ramp and try to block, but still it can be risky
I don't understand why you would say that... 11pool is great versus both.
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On June 03 2011 09:21 DeuS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 09:05 Crunchums wrote:
have you ever seen a pro use this build? No, nor have I seen anyone else use this build. Apparently Ahzz and ChOseN used it frequently, but I have not seen replays from them.
Actually saw an Ahzz VOD where he does this build and was wondering if it would still work. Apparently, it does. :p
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EPT
