• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 15:13
CEST 21:13
KST 04:13
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL21] Ro8 Preview Pt1: Inheritors4[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt2: All Star10Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists16[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Fresh Flow9[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt2: News Flash10
Community News
2026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers19Maestros of the Game 2 announced92026 GSL Tour plans announced15Weekly Cups (April 6-12): herO doubles, "Villains" prevail1MaNa leaves Team Liquid25
StarCraft 2
General
MaNa leaves Team Liquid Maestros of the Game 2 announced 2026 GSL Tour plans announced Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament 2026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers INu's Battles#14 <BO.9 2Matches> GSL CK: More events planned pending crowdfunding RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event
Strategy
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
Mutation # 523 Firewall Mutation # 522 Flip My Base The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 521 Memorable Boss
Brood War
General
[ASL21] Ro8 Preview Pt1: Inheritors Leta's ASL S21 Ro.16 review FlaSh: This Will Be My Final ASL【ASL S21 Ro.16】 BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL21 General Discussion
Tourneys
[ASL21] Ro16 Group D [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2 [ASL21] Ro16 Group C
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Any training maps people recommend? Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Dawn of War IV Diablo IV Total Annihilation Server - TAForever Starcraft Tabletop Miniature Game
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion McBoner: A hockey love story
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Strange computer issues (software) [G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Sexual Health Of Gamers
TrAiDoS
lurker extra damage testi…
StaticNine
Broowar part 2
qwaykee
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1746 users

[G] 5 Hatch Before Gas ZvP - Page 4

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next All
JMave
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Singapore1806 Posts
June 08 2011 01:28 GMT
#61
What about sair-reaver openings? Since your mid-game army mass is delayed and you wouldn't be able to scout stargate count, then how do you counter the harassment?
火心 Jealous. I always loved that feeling when I was young. Embrace it.
Miwyfe
Profile Joined September 2010
England101 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-08 13:05:14
June 08 2011 12:58 GMT
#62
ghrur, krndandaman, almond and Jmave are correct.
As you know, the build loses air control. Therefore no scouting at critical times. And no way of stopping reaver or dt drops. A dt drop will kill one of your bases guaranteed. Know your weaknesses.

However, I am talking about the top level of skill here. This build is very powerful up to a point and I really like it. It utilizes the power of the zerg macro mechanics to the full which is deliciously evil.
Haha thanks for the guide.
LRM)nOoNe
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States231 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-08 20:04:12
June 08 2011 19:43 GMT
#63
On June 08 2011 21:58 Miwyfe wrote:
ghrur, krndandaman, almond and Jmave are correct.
As you know, the build loses air control. Therefore no scouting at critical times. And no way of stopping reaver or dt drops. A dt drop will kill one of your bases guaranteed. Know your weaknesses.

However, I am talking about the top level of skill here. This build is very powerful up to a point and I really like it. It utilizes the power of the zerg macro mechanics to the full which is deliciously evil.
Haha thanks for the guide.

You're completely wrong, I don't know how else to say it. I've addressed scouting and I've addressed drops, neither are an issue if you play properly.

On June 08 2011 10:28 JMave wrote:
What about sair-reaver openings? Since your mid-game army mass is delayed and you wouldn't be able to scout stargate count, then how do you counter the harassment?

It's not delayed, it actually comes out faster. I've already addressed how to counter sair-reaver in the first post.
krndandaman
Profile Joined August 2009
Mozambique16569 Posts
June 08 2011 20:51 GMT
#64
--- Nuked ---
Navane
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Netherlands2751 Posts
June 08 2011 21:01 GMT
#65
I'd say because it's less versatile? Once you get your 5th hatch before gas, you're pretty much forced to take certain steps. I can imagine Movie for instance to have a death trap ready once he sees a Z heading this direction. 3hspire5hhydra can take so much more directions.
LRM)nOoNe
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States231 Posts
June 08 2011 21:15 GMT
#66
On June 09 2011 06:01 Navane wrote:
I'd say because it's less versatile? Once you get your 5th hatch before gas, you're pretty much forced to take certain steps. I can imagine Movie for instance to have a death trap ready once he sees a Z heading this direction. 3hspire5hhydra can take so much more directions.

It's really protoss that needs to be versatile against this build. You are absolutely going to get a good economy and you are absolutely going to have a lot of hydras early, it's up to protoss to change his plan to deal with this. With that being said, because you are not doing anything regarding air, protoss does not need to account for it. He does not need to spend money on cannons, archons, or worry about muta backstabs. So in that sense, yes, 5h no gas is less versatile, but not in a death-inducing way. It just gives protoss more room to breathe and more money to spend elsewhere.

On June 09 2011 05:51 krndandaman wrote:
any reason that koreans / progamers are not using this build? it looks pretty solid no matter how you look at it. and it's been around for a long time so... i'd imagine at least one korean knows about this build.

Not sure, I can say that some of the new maps are not good for this build. Aztec, for example, is difficult because you can't easily secure a fourth gas assuming you took the nearby third. You can take the expo immediately down your ramp, but it feels really unsafe to me.
Miwyfe
Profile Joined September 2010
England101 Posts
June 09 2011 04:01 GMT
#67
Well, cheers for sharing this guide and replying to everyone, much appreciated, nice one. I love reading Broodwar strat discussions. Cheers.
Liquid`Sheth
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States2095 Posts
June 10 2011 16:47 GMT
#68
Yep this was my build on Tau at least xD!
Team LiquidUnderneath it all they were really quite nice. They just got screwed up. Mostly by stuff that wasn't entirely their fault.
Game
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
3191 Posts
June 10 2011 16:51 GMT
#69
On June 11 2011 01:47 Sheth wrote:
Yep this was my build on Tau at least xD!


And many variances on other maps, such as Othello and Longinus. ^^
SC is like sex. You should play often, but never too hard. And you should only try hard when it matters.
Miwyfe
Profile Joined September 2010
England101 Posts
June 12 2011 16:16 GMT
#70
Here is a better response;
This build doesnt threaten very many options compared to standard builds and that makes it less powerful I believe. As soon as Zerg gets gas and a lair, the Protoss must be preparing for threats of mutas, lurkers, and drops. However this build pushes back those threats by not getting a lair upgrade for a long time.

The new threat that this build gains is a sustained hydra ling pump from 5 hatches at an earlier timing than standard. This is definately very scary but I think that earlier air threats and tech threats are more dangerous to a Protoss, and that is why it is not used by the pros.

The later lair gives the Protoss player knowledge that hydras and lings are the only threat for the midterm future. The Protoss player is still threatening everything he normally would be (and the zerg must prepare for to be safe) while eliminating many of the usual Zerg threats he himself would normally have to prepare for. I think that overall the new threats you gain are not as dangerous as the threats that are now excluded from you, but its still a good build.
The corners a Protoss could cut accordingly (delayed cannon in the main, delayed sairs, delayed dragoons, no need to hang back against drops, early 2nd forge maybe, delayed archons, delayed observers) could all lead to a very powerful pre lurker timing attack of upgraded zealots and high templar, maybe a reaver too. That is a pretty scary timing attack for you to face, even with a 5 hatchery sustained hydra pump. After you survive, Protoss will be ahead in upgrades for a good while too, providing more opportunities for later timing attacks, after taking a third base.

There is also a big advantage of using non standard builds regularly which is familiarity. Because you are using this build alot you get the timings nice and crisp while the opponent will not be comfortable in the same way. That is a great advantage and should not be overlooked. Having your own style can really help.
Goodluck with your future games using this build, hope it continues to bring more success.
shinjin
Profile Joined January 2010
United States398 Posts
June 13 2011 04:38 GMT
#71
On June 13 2011 01:16 Miwyfe wrote:
Here is a better response;
This build doesnt threaten very many options compared to standard builds and that makes it less powerful I believe. As soon as Zerg gets gas and a lair, the Protoss must be preparing for threats of mutas, lurkers, and drops. However this build pushes back those threats by not getting a lair upgrade for a long time.

The new threat that this build gains is a sustained hydra ling pump from 5 hatches at an earlier timing than standard. This is definately very scary but I think that earlier air threats and tech threats are more dangerous to a Protoss, and that is why it is not used by the pros.

The later lair gives the Protoss player knowledge that hydras and lings are the only threat for the midterm future. The Protoss player is still threatening everything he normally would be (and the zerg must prepare for to be safe) while eliminating many of the usual Zerg threats he himself would normally have to prepare for. I think that overall the new threats you gain are not as dangerous as the threats that are now excluded from you, but its still a good build.
The corners a Protoss could cut accordingly (delayed cannon in the main, delayed sairs, delayed dragoons, no need to hang back against drops, early 2nd forge maybe, delayed archons, delayed observers) could all lead to a very powerful pre lurker timing attack of upgraded zealots and high templar, maybe a reaver too. That is a pretty scary timing attack for you to face, even with a 5 hatchery sustained hydra pump. After you survive, Protoss will be ahead in upgrades for a good while too, providing more opportunities for later timing attacks, after taking a third base.

There is also a big advantage of using non standard builds regularly which is familiarity. Because you are using this build alot you get the timings nice and crisp while the opponent will not be comfortable in the same way. That is a great advantage and should not be overlooked. Having your own style can really help.
Goodluck with your future games using this build, hope it continues to bring more success.


a very good analysis, i actually need to learn the exact timings for all of those protoss timings
when does one usually build a cannon in main, start dragoons, and make observers
give it one more try because the best things in life dont come free.
LRM)nOoNe
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States231 Posts
June 13 2011 05:07 GMT
#72
I've already discussed threat extensively. Protoss will be stronger, but so will zerg. Protoss does not threaten everything he normally would because he needs to account for the earlier hydra mass. Attacks before lurkers with zealot/templar will get shut down by good hydra flanks. If he loses those templar the game ends immediately, so it's not a risk most protoss will take. It's not possible to have a reaver/zealot/templar in the first push out. Any small protoss attacks (ie: <100 food) are easily killed just because zerg's midgame army is so strong. Once it gets bigger it is harder to stop but it's absolutely possible.
[sc1f]eonzerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Belgium6868 Posts
June 13 2011 12:01 GMT
#73
good guide noone.really good for counter 3 4 gates zeal speed
G.M.T
Profile Joined February 2009
Romania27 Posts
June 13 2011 12:25 GMT
#74
its an old build i used it long ago when ahzz writed a guid with this but the Build order was a lil diferent but thx for the uptdate . anyway i started to not use it anymore coz it elaves me so open for shuttle play ... . and i even cant really defend myself vs shuttle sair play witha speir opening..
renzy
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada781 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-15 02:41:47
June 15 2011 01:43 GMT
#75
Since people are starting to use this build on ICCUP. NoOne, can I ask you a favor? Could you clarify in this thread that a 4 gate speed zealot pressure is NOT an all in versus this build? So that when people don't get the timing right and get raped by my zealots, they don't call me a cheeser? =.= thanks.

Edit: To be more specific, a cheeser who will never make it past D+. LOL!
Bisu is the man
krndandaman
Profile Joined August 2009
Mozambique16569 Posts
June 15 2011 02:17 GMT
#76
--- Nuked ---
kolona
Profile Joined May 2011
Ukraine16 Posts
July 05 2011 20:13 GMT
#77
up

User was warned for this post
Keep the formation!
LightningStrike
Profile Joined February 2011
United States14277 Posts
July 05 2011 20:35 GMT
#78
Very intresting build i just swap to zerg like 2 weeks ago and i might try this build. I tired of using 3 base spire 5 hatch hydra since it so weak in econ unless you double expo with the 4th and 5th hatchery but otherwise this build looks alot better then standred 3 basespire 5 hatch hydra play due to better econ even though no air control at all.Thank you for making this guide for us fellow zergs to use.
May the next light shine/Former #1 Alliance LoL fan/ Current Teamliquid LoL Fan
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
July 05 2011 23:46 GMT
#79
On July 06 2011 05:35 LightningStrike wrote:
Very intresting build i just swap to zerg like 2 weeks ago and i might try this build. I tired of using 3 base spire 5 hatch hydra since it so weak in econ unless you double expo with the 4th and 5th hatchery but otherwise this build looks alot better then standred 3 basespire 5 hatch hydra play due to better econ even though no air control at all.Thank you for making this guide for us fellow zergs to use.

This makes no sense.
XXGeneration
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States625 Posts
July 06 2011 01:20 GMT
#80
On July 06 2011 08:46 koreasilver wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2011 05:35 LightningStrike wrote:
Very intresting build i just swap to zerg like 2 weeks ago and i might try this build. I tired of using 3 base spire 5 hatch hydra since it so weak in econ unless you double expo with the 4th and 5th hatchery but otherwise this build looks alot better then standred 3 basespire 5 hatch hydra play due to better econ even though no air control at all.Thank you for making this guide for us fellow zergs to use.

This makes no sense.


What he means is that instead of putting the 4th and 5th hatches as macro hatches at your natural and third, you double expo.

Which is stupid.
"I was so surprised when I first played StarCraft 2. I couldn't believe that such an easy game exists... I guess the best way to attract people these days is to make things easy and simple." -Midas
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL
19:00
RO16 TieBreaker - Group B
LiquipediaDiscussion
Ladder Legends
15:00
Valedictorian Cup #1
ByuN vs SolarLIVE!
MaxPax vs TBD
SteadfastSC501
TKL 376
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SteadfastSC 501
TKL 376
MaxPax 279
Liquid`TLO 236
BRAT_OK 119
Railgan 82
mouzHeroMarine 12
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 3279
Mini 421
Horang2 390
firebathero 230
ggaemo 168
Dewaltoss 135
Dota 2
LuMiX1
Counter-Strike
byalli1151
Super Smash Bros
C9.Mang0641
Mew2King91
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor1458
Liquid`Hasu583
Other Games
Grubby3523
FrodaN1512
Beastyqt866
KnowMe340
crisheroes279
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick918
BasetradeTV249
StarCraft 2
angryscii 27
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Shameless 24
• Adnapsc2 4
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Migwel
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• Airneanach13
• FirePhoenix9
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos1983
Other Games
• imaqtpie1243
• WagamamaTV483
• Shiphtur188
Upcoming Events
CranKy Ducklings
4h 47m
Replay Cast
13h 47m
Wardi Open
14h 47m
Afreeca Starleague
14h 47m
Soma vs hero
Monday Night Weeklies
20h 47m
Replay Cast
1d 4h
Replay Cast
1d 13h
Afreeca Starleague
1d 14h
Leta vs YSC
Replay Cast
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
[ Show More ]
KCM Race Survival
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Escore
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
IPSL
5 days
Ret vs Art_Of_Turtle
Radley vs TBD
BSL
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
BSL
6 days
IPSL
6 days
eOnzErG vs TBD
G5 vs Nesh
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Escore Tournament S2: W4
RSL Revival: Season 4
NationLESS Cup

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
StarCraft2 Community Team League 2026 Spring
Nations Cup 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S2: W5
KK 2v2 League Season 1
Acropolis #4
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Maestros of the Game 2
2026 GSL S2
RSL Revival: Season 5
2026 GSL S1
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.