• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 23:53
CET 04:53
KST 12:53
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT29Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book19Clem wins HomeStory Cup 289HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview13Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info8
Community News
Blizzard Classic Cup - Tastosis announced as captains2Weekly Cups (March 2-8): ByuN overcomes PvT block2GSL CK - New online series13BSL Season 224Vitality ends partnership with ONSYDE20
StarCraft 2
General
Blizzard Classic Cup - Tastosis announced as captains Weekly Cups (March 2-8): ByuN overcomes PvT block GSL CK - New online series Weekly Cups (Feb 23-Mar 1): herO doubles, 2v2 bonanza Vitality ends partnership with ONSYDE
Tourneys
Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) RSL Season 4 announced for March-April Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament PIG STY FESTIVAL 7.0! (19 Feb - 1 Mar) $5,000 WardiTV Winter Championship 2026
Strategy
Custom Maps
Publishing has been re-enabled! [Feb 24th 2026] Map Editor closed ?
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 516 Specter of Death Mutation # 515 Together Forever Mutation # 514 Ulnar New Year
Brood War
General
Recent recommended BW games ASL21 General Discussion BSL 22 Map Contest — Submissions OPEN to March 10 BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BSL Season 22
Tourneys
ASL Season 21 Qualifiers March 7-8 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues BWCL Season 64 Announcement [BSL22] Open Qualifier #1 - Sunday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2 Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers Zealot bombing is no longer popular?
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread PC Games Sales Thread Path of Exile No Man's Sky (PS4 and PC) Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Mexico's Drug War Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion General nutrition recommendations Cricket [SPORT] TL MMA Pick'em Pool 2013
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Laptop capable of using Photoshop Lightroom?
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
FS++
Kraekkling
Shocked by a laser…
Spydermine0240
Gaming-Related Deaths
TrAiDoS
Unintentional protectionism…
Uldridge
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1970 users

[G] 5 Hatch Before Gas ZvP - Page 4

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next All
JMave
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Singapore1806 Posts
June 08 2011 01:28 GMT
#61
What about sair-reaver openings? Since your mid-game army mass is delayed and you wouldn't be able to scout stargate count, then how do you counter the harassment?
火心 Jealous. I always loved that feeling when I was young. Embrace it.
Miwyfe
Profile Joined September 2010
England101 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-08 13:05:14
June 08 2011 12:58 GMT
#62
ghrur, krndandaman, almond and Jmave are correct.
As you know, the build loses air control. Therefore no scouting at critical times. And no way of stopping reaver or dt drops. A dt drop will kill one of your bases guaranteed. Know your weaknesses.

However, I am talking about the top level of skill here. This build is very powerful up to a point and I really like it. It utilizes the power of the zerg macro mechanics to the full which is deliciously evil.
Haha thanks for the guide.
LRM)nOoNe
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States231 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-08 20:04:12
June 08 2011 19:43 GMT
#63
On June 08 2011 21:58 Miwyfe wrote:
ghrur, krndandaman, almond and Jmave are correct.
As you know, the build loses air control. Therefore no scouting at critical times. And no way of stopping reaver or dt drops. A dt drop will kill one of your bases guaranteed. Know your weaknesses.

However, I am talking about the top level of skill here. This build is very powerful up to a point and I really like it. It utilizes the power of the zerg macro mechanics to the full which is deliciously evil.
Haha thanks for the guide.

You're completely wrong, I don't know how else to say it. I've addressed scouting and I've addressed drops, neither are an issue if you play properly.

On June 08 2011 10:28 JMave wrote:
What about sair-reaver openings? Since your mid-game army mass is delayed and you wouldn't be able to scout stargate count, then how do you counter the harassment?

It's not delayed, it actually comes out faster. I've already addressed how to counter sair-reaver in the first post.
krndandaman
Profile Joined August 2009
Mozambique16569 Posts
June 08 2011 20:51 GMT
#64
--- Nuked ---
Navane
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Netherlands2751 Posts
June 08 2011 21:01 GMT
#65
I'd say because it's less versatile? Once you get your 5th hatch before gas, you're pretty much forced to take certain steps. I can imagine Movie for instance to have a death trap ready once he sees a Z heading this direction. 3hspire5hhydra can take so much more directions.
LRM)nOoNe
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States231 Posts
June 08 2011 21:15 GMT
#66
On June 09 2011 06:01 Navane wrote:
I'd say because it's less versatile? Once you get your 5th hatch before gas, you're pretty much forced to take certain steps. I can imagine Movie for instance to have a death trap ready once he sees a Z heading this direction. 3hspire5hhydra can take so much more directions.

It's really protoss that needs to be versatile against this build. You are absolutely going to get a good economy and you are absolutely going to have a lot of hydras early, it's up to protoss to change his plan to deal with this. With that being said, because you are not doing anything regarding air, protoss does not need to account for it. He does not need to spend money on cannons, archons, or worry about muta backstabs. So in that sense, yes, 5h no gas is less versatile, but not in a death-inducing way. It just gives protoss more room to breathe and more money to spend elsewhere.

On June 09 2011 05:51 krndandaman wrote:
any reason that koreans / progamers are not using this build? it looks pretty solid no matter how you look at it. and it's been around for a long time so... i'd imagine at least one korean knows about this build.

Not sure, I can say that some of the new maps are not good for this build. Aztec, for example, is difficult because you can't easily secure a fourth gas assuming you took the nearby third. You can take the expo immediately down your ramp, but it feels really unsafe to me.
Miwyfe
Profile Joined September 2010
England101 Posts
June 09 2011 04:01 GMT
#67
Well, cheers for sharing this guide and replying to everyone, much appreciated, nice one. I love reading Broodwar strat discussions. Cheers.
Liquid`Sheth
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States2095 Posts
June 10 2011 16:47 GMT
#68
Yep this was my build on Tau at least xD!
Team LiquidUnderneath it all they were really quite nice. They just got screwed up. Mostly by stuff that wasn't entirely their fault.
Game
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
3191 Posts
June 10 2011 16:51 GMT
#69
On June 11 2011 01:47 Sheth wrote:
Yep this was my build on Tau at least xD!


And many variances on other maps, such as Othello and Longinus. ^^
SC is like sex. You should play often, but never too hard. And you should only try hard when it matters.
Miwyfe
Profile Joined September 2010
England101 Posts
June 12 2011 16:16 GMT
#70
Here is a better response;
This build doesnt threaten very many options compared to standard builds and that makes it less powerful I believe. As soon as Zerg gets gas and a lair, the Protoss must be preparing for threats of mutas, lurkers, and drops. However this build pushes back those threats by not getting a lair upgrade for a long time.

The new threat that this build gains is a sustained hydra ling pump from 5 hatches at an earlier timing than standard. This is definately very scary but I think that earlier air threats and tech threats are more dangerous to a Protoss, and that is why it is not used by the pros.

The later lair gives the Protoss player knowledge that hydras and lings are the only threat for the midterm future. The Protoss player is still threatening everything he normally would be (and the zerg must prepare for to be safe) while eliminating many of the usual Zerg threats he himself would normally have to prepare for. I think that overall the new threats you gain are not as dangerous as the threats that are now excluded from you, but its still a good build.
The corners a Protoss could cut accordingly (delayed cannon in the main, delayed sairs, delayed dragoons, no need to hang back against drops, early 2nd forge maybe, delayed archons, delayed observers) could all lead to a very powerful pre lurker timing attack of upgraded zealots and high templar, maybe a reaver too. That is a pretty scary timing attack for you to face, even with a 5 hatchery sustained hydra pump. After you survive, Protoss will be ahead in upgrades for a good while too, providing more opportunities for later timing attacks, after taking a third base.

There is also a big advantage of using non standard builds regularly which is familiarity. Because you are using this build alot you get the timings nice and crisp while the opponent will not be comfortable in the same way. That is a great advantage and should not be overlooked. Having your own style can really help.
Goodluck with your future games using this build, hope it continues to bring more success.
shinjin
Profile Joined January 2010
United States398 Posts
June 13 2011 04:38 GMT
#71
On June 13 2011 01:16 Miwyfe wrote:
Here is a better response;
This build doesnt threaten very many options compared to standard builds and that makes it less powerful I believe. As soon as Zerg gets gas and a lair, the Protoss must be preparing for threats of mutas, lurkers, and drops. However this build pushes back those threats by not getting a lair upgrade for a long time.

The new threat that this build gains is a sustained hydra ling pump from 5 hatches at an earlier timing than standard. This is definately very scary but I think that earlier air threats and tech threats are more dangerous to a Protoss, and that is why it is not used by the pros.

The later lair gives the Protoss player knowledge that hydras and lings are the only threat for the midterm future. The Protoss player is still threatening everything he normally would be (and the zerg must prepare for to be safe) while eliminating many of the usual Zerg threats he himself would normally have to prepare for. I think that overall the new threats you gain are not as dangerous as the threats that are now excluded from you, but its still a good build.
The corners a Protoss could cut accordingly (delayed cannon in the main, delayed sairs, delayed dragoons, no need to hang back against drops, early 2nd forge maybe, delayed archons, delayed observers) could all lead to a very powerful pre lurker timing attack of upgraded zealots and high templar, maybe a reaver too. That is a pretty scary timing attack for you to face, even with a 5 hatchery sustained hydra pump. After you survive, Protoss will be ahead in upgrades for a good while too, providing more opportunities for later timing attacks, after taking a third base.

There is also a big advantage of using non standard builds regularly which is familiarity. Because you are using this build alot you get the timings nice and crisp while the opponent will not be comfortable in the same way. That is a great advantage and should not be overlooked. Having your own style can really help.
Goodluck with your future games using this build, hope it continues to bring more success.


a very good analysis, i actually need to learn the exact timings for all of those protoss timings
when does one usually build a cannon in main, start dragoons, and make observers
give it one more try because the best things in life dont come free.
LRM)nOoNe
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States231 Posts
June 13 2011 05:07 GMT
#72
I've already discussed threat extensively. Protoss will be stronger, but so will zerg. Protoss does not threaten everything he normally would because he needs to account for the earlier hydra mass. Attacks before lurkers with zealot/templar will get shut down by good hydra flanks. If he loses those templar the game ends immediately, so it's not a risk most protoss will take. It's not possible to have a reaver/zealot/templar in the first push out. Any small protoss attacks (ie: <100 food) are easily killed just because zerg's midgame army is so strong. Once it gets bigger it is harder to stop but it's absolutely possible.
[sc1f]eonzerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Belgium6815 Posts
June 13 2011 12:01 GMT
#73
good guide noone.really good for counter 3 4 gates zeal speed
G.M.T
Profile Joined February 2009
Romania27 Posts
June 13 2011 12:25 GMT
#74
its an old build i used it long ago when ahzz writed a guid with this but the Build order was a lil diferent but thx for the uptdate . anyway i started to not use it anymore coz it elaves me so open for shuttle play ... . and i even cant really defend myself vs shuttle sair play witha speir opening..
renzy
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada781 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-15 02:41:47
June 15 2011 01:43 GMT
#75
Since people are starting to use this build on ICCUP. NoOne, can I ask you a favor? Could you clarify in this thread that a 4 gate speed zealot pressure is NOT an all in versus this build? So that when people don't get the timing right and get raped by my zealots, they don't call me a cheeser? =.= thanks.

Edit: To be more specific, a cheeser who will never make it past D+. LOL!
Bisu is the man
krndandaman
Profile Joined August 2009
Mozambique16569 Posts
June 15 2011 02:17 GMT
#76
--- Nuked ---
kolona
Profile Joined May 2011
Ukraine16 Posts
July 05 2011 20:13 GMT
#77
up

User was warned for this post
Keep the formation!
LightningStrike
Profile Joined February 2011
United States14277 Posts
July 05 2011 20:35 GMT
#78
Very intresting build i just swap to zerg like 2 weeks ago and i might try this build. I tired of using 3 base spire 5 hatch hydra since it so weak in econ unless you double expo with the 4th and 5th hatchery but otherwise this build looks alot better then standred 3 basespire 5 hatch hydra play due to better econ even though no air control at all.Thank you for making this guide for us fellow zergs to use.
May the next light shine/Former #1 Alliance LoL fan/ Current Teamliquid LoL Fan
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
July 05 2011 23:46 GMT
#79
On July 06 2011 05:35 LightningStrike wrote:
Very intresting build i just swap to zerg like 2 weeks ago and i might try this build. I tired of using 3 base spire 5 hatch hydra since it so weak in econ unless you double expo with the 4th and 5th hatchery but otherwise this build looks alot better then standred 3 basespire 5 hatch hydra play due to better econ even though no air control at all.Thank you for making this guide for us fellow zergs to use.

This makes no sense.
XXGeneration
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States625 Posts
July 06 2011 01:20 GMT
#80
On July 06 2011 08:46 koreasilver wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2011 05:35 LightningStrike wrote:
Very intresting build i just swap to zerg like 2 weeks ago and i might try this build. I tired of using 3 base spire 5 hatch hydra since it so weak in econ unless you double expo with the 4th and 5th hatchery but otherwise this build looks alot better then standred 3 basespire 5 hatch hydra play due to better econ even though no air control at all.Thank you for making this guide for us fellow zergs to use.

This makes no sense.


What he means is that instead of putting the 4th and 5th hatches as macro hatches at your natural and third, you double expo.

Which is stupid.
"I was so surprised when I first played StarCraft 2. I couldn't believe that such an easy game exists... I guess the best way to attract people these days is to make things easy and simple." -Midas
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
PiGosaur Cup
00:00
#72
PiGStarcraft616
EnkiAlexander 55
davetesta24
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft616
RuFF_SC2 236
Nathanias 46
StarCraft: Brood War
GuemChi 2057
Shuttle 318
Dewaltoss 189
Leta 64
ggaemo 35
Icarus 5
Dota 2
LuMiX1
Counter-Strike
minikerr8
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox1291
C9.Mang0430
Other Games
summit1g11404
Maynarde94
ViBE41
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick2088
BasetradeTV60
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 210
• practicex 23
• Kozan
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• sooper7s
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Diggity4
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Lourlo900
Other Games
• Scarra615
Upcoming Events
GSL
6h 8m
WardiTV Team League
8h 8m
The PondCast
1d 6h
WardiTV Team League
1d 8h
Replay Cast
1d 20h
Replay Cast
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
WardiTV Team League
3 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
[ Show More ]
BSL
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
WardiTV Team League
4 days
BSL
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Wardi Open
5 days
Monday Night Weeklies
5 days
WardiTV Team League
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Spring Cup 2026
WardiTV Winter 2026
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Jeongseon Sooper Cup
BSL Season 22
RSL Revival: Season 4
Nations Cup 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual

Upcoming

CSL Elite League 2026
ASL Season 21
Acropolis #4 - TS6
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
CSLAN 4
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
NationLESS Cup
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.