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[G] 5 Hatch Before Gas ZvP - Page 4

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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JMave
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Singapore1806 Posts
June 08 2011 01:28 GMT
#61
What about sair-reaver openings? Since your mid-game army mass is delayed and you wouldn't be able to scout stargate count, then how do you counter the harassment?
火心 Jealous. I always loved that feeling when I was young. Embrace it.
Miwyfe
Profile Joined September 2010
England101 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-08 13:05:14
June 08 2011 12:58 GMT
#62
ghrur, krndandaman, almond and Jmave are correct.
As you know, the build loses air control. Therefore no scouting at critical times. And no way of stopping reaver or dt drops. A dt drop will kill one of your bases guaranteed. Know your weaknesses.

However, I am talking about the top level of skill here. This build is very powerful up to a point and I really like it. It utilizes the power of the zerg macro mechanics to the full which is deliciously evil.
Haha thanks for the guide.
LRM)nOoNe
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States231 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-08 20:04:12
June 08 2011 19:43 GMT
#63
On June 08 2011 21:58 Miwyfe wrote:
ghrur, krndandaman, almond and Jmave are correct.
As you know, the build loses air control. Therefore no scouting at critical times. And no way of stopping reaver or dt drops. A dt drop will kill one of your bases guaranteed. Know your weaknesses.

However, I am talking about the top level of skill here. This build is very powerful up to a point and I really like it. It utilizes the power of the zerg macro mechanics to the full which is deliciously evil.
Haha thanks for the guide.

You're completely wrong, I don't know how else to say it. I've addressed scouting and I've addressed drops, neither are an issue if you play properly.

On June 08 2011 10:28 JMave wrote:
What about sair-reaver openings? Since your mid-game army mass is delayed and you wouldn't be able to scout stargate count, then how do you counter the harassment?

It's not delayed, it actually comes out faster. I've already addressed how to counter sair-reaver in the first post.
krndandaman
Profile Joined August 2009
Mozambique16569 Posts
June 08 2011 20:51 GMT
#64
--- Nuked ---
Navane
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Netherlands2757 Posts
June 08 2011 21:01 GMT
#65
I'd say because it's less versatile? Once you get your 5th hatch before gas, you're pretty much forced to take certain steps. I can imagine Movie for instance to have a death trap ready once he sees a Z heading this direction. 3hspire5hhydra can take so much more directions.
LRM)nOoNe
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States231 Posts
June 08 2011 21:15 GMT
#66
On June 09 2011 06:01 Navane wrote:
I'd say because it's less versatile? Once you get your 5th hatch before gas, you're pretty much forced to take certain steps. I can imagine Movie for instance to have a death trap ready once he sees a Z heading this direction. 3hspire5hhydra can take so much more directions.

It's really protoss that needs to be versatile against this build. You are absolutely going to get a good economy and you are absolutely going to have a lot of hydras early, it's up to protoss to change his plan to deal with this. With that being said, because you are not doing anything regarding air, protoss does not need to account for it. He does not need to spend money on cannons, archons, or worry about muta backstabs. So in that sense, yes, 5h no gas is less versatile, but not in a death-inducing way. It just gives protoss more room to breathe and more money to spend elsewhere.

On June 09 2011 05:51 krndandaman wrote:
any reason that koreans / progamers are not using this build? it looks pretty solid no matter how you look at it. and it's been around for a long time so... i'd imagine at least one korean knows about this build.

Not sure, I can say that some of the new maps are not good for this build. Aztec, for example, is difficult because you can't easily secure a fourth gas assuming you took the nearby third. You can take the expo immediately down your ramp, but it feels really unsafe to me.
Miwyfe
Profile Joined September 2010
England101 Posts
June 09 2011 04:01 GMT
#67
Well, cheers for sharing this guide and replying to everyone, much appreciated, nice one. I love reading Broodwar strat discussions. Cheers.
Liquid`Sheth
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States2095 Posts
June 10 2011 16:47 GMT
#68
Yep this was my build on Tau at least xD!
Team LiquidUnderneath it all they were really quite nice. They just got screwed up. Mostly by stuff that wasn't entirely their fault.
Game
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
3191 Posts
June 10 2011 16:51 GMT
#69
On June 11 2011 01:47 Sheth wrote:
Yep this was my build on Tau at least xD!


And many variances on other maps, such as Othello and Longinus. ^^
SC is like sex. You should play often, but never too hard. And you should only try hard when it matters.
Miwyfe
Profile Joined September 2010
England101 Posts
June 12 2011 16:16 GMT
#70
Here is a better response;
This build doesnt threaten very many options compared to standard builds and that makes it less powerful I believe. As soon as Zerg gets gas and a lair, the Protoss must be preparing for threats of mutas, lurkers, and drops. However this build pushes back those threats by not getting a lair upgrade for a long time.

The new threat that this build gains is a sustained hydra ling pump from 5 hatches at an earlier timing than standard. This is definately very scary but I think that earlier air threats and tech threats are more dangerous to a Protoss, and that is why it is not used by the pros.

The later lair gives the Protoss player knowledge that hydras and lings are the only threat for the midterm future. The Protoss player is still threatening everything he normally would be (and the zerg must prepare for to be safe) while eliminating many of the usual Zerg threats he himself would normally have to prepare for. I think that overall the new threats you gain are not as dangerous as the threats that are now excluded from you, but its still a good build.
The corners a Protoss could cut accordingly (delayed cannon in the main, delayed sairs, delayed dragoons, no need to hang back against drops, early 2nd forge maybe, delayed archons, delayed observers) could all lead to a very powerful pre lurker timing attack of upgraded zealots and high templar, maybe a reaver too. That is a pretty scary timing attack for you to face, even with a 5 hatchery sustained hydra pump. After you survive, Protoss will be ahead in upgrades for a good while too, providing more opportunities for later timing attacks, after taking a third base.

There is also a big advantage of using non standard builds regularly which is familiarity. Because you are using this build alot you get the timings nice and crisp while the opponent will not be comfortable in the same way. That is a great advantage and should not be overlooked. Having your own style can really help.
Goodluck with your future games using this build, hope it continues to bring more success.
shinjin
Profile Joined January 2010
United States398 Posts
June 13 2011 04:38 GMT
#71
On June 13 2011 01:16 Miwyfe wrote:
Here is a better response;
This build doesnt threaten very many options compared to standard builds and that makes it less powerful I believe. As soon as Zerg gets gas and a lair, the Protoss must be preparing for threats of mutas, lurkers, and drops. However this build pushes back those threats by not getting a lair upgrade for a long time.

The new threat that this build gains is a sustained hydra ling pump from 5 hatches at an earlier timing than standard. This is definately very scary but I think that earlier air threats and tech threats are more dangerous to a Protoss, and that is why it is not used by the pros.

The later lair gives the Protoss player knowledge that hydras and lings are the only threat for the midterm future. The Protoss player is still threatening everything he normally would be (and the zerg must prepare for to be safe) while eliminating many of the usual Zerg threats he himself would normally have to prepare for. I think that overall the new threats you gain are not as dangerous as the threats that are now excluded from you, but its still a good build.
The corners a Protoss could cut accordingly (delayed cannon in the main, delayed sairs, delayed dragoons, no need to hang back against drops, early 2nd forge maybe, delayed archons, delayed observers) could all lead to a very powerful pre lurker timing attack of upgraded zealots and high templar, maybe a reaver too. That is a pretty scary timing attack for you to face, even with a 5 hatchery sustained hydra pump. After you survive, Protoss will be ahead in upgrades for a good while too, providing more opportunities for later timing attacks, after taking a third base.

There is also a big advantage of using non standard builds regularly which is familiarity. Because you are using this build alot you get the timings nice and crisp while the opponent will not be comfortable in the same way. That is a great advantage and should not be overlooked. Having your own style can really help.
Goodluck with your future games using this build, hope it continues to bring more success.


a very good analysis, i actually need to learn the exact timings for all of those protoss timings
when does one usually build a cannon in main, start dragoons, and make observers
give it one more try because the best things in life dont come free.
LRM)nOoNe
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States231 Posts
June 13 2011 05:07 GMT
#72
I've already discussed threat extensively. Protoss will be stronger, but so will zerg. Protoss does not threaten everything he normally would because he needs to account for the earlier hydra mass. Attacks before lurkers with zealot/templar will get shut down by good hydra flanks. If he loses those templar the game ends immediately, so it's not a risk most protoss will take. It's not possible to have a reaver/zealot/templar in the first push out. Any small protoss attacks (ie: <100 food) are easily killed just because zerg's midgame army is so strong. Once it gets bigger it is harder to stop but it's absolutely possible.
[sc1f]eonzerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Belgium6999 Posts
June 13 2011 12:01 GMT
#73
good guide noone.really good for counter 3 4 gates zeal speed
G.M.T
Profile Joined February 2009
Romania27 Posts
June 13 2011 12:25 GMT
#74
its an old build i used it long ago when ahzz writed a guid with this but the Build order was a lil diferent but thx for the uptdate . anyway i started to not use it anymore coz it elaves me so open for shuttle play ... . and i even cant really defend myself vs shuttle sair play witha speir opening..
renzy
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada781 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-15 02:41:47
June 15 2011 01:43 GMT
#75
Since people are starting to use this build on ICCUP. NoOne, can I ask you a favor? Could you clarify in this thread that a 4 gate speed zealot pressure is NOT an all in versus this build? So that when people don't get the timing right and get raped by my zealots, they don't call me a cheeser? =.= thanks.

Edit: To be more specific, a cheeser who will never make it past D+. LOL!
Bisu is the man
krndandaman
Profile Joined August 2009
Mozambique16569 Posts
June 15 2011 02:17 GMT
#76
--- Nuked ---
kolona
Profile Joined May 2011
Ukraine16 Posts
July 05 2011 20:13 GMT
#77
up

User was warned for this post
Keep the formation!
LightningStrike
Profile Joined February 2011
United States14277 Posts
July 05 2011 20:35 GMT
#78
Very intresting build i just swap to zerg like 2 weeks ago and i might try this build. I tired of using 3 base spire 5 hatch hydra since it so weak in econ unless you double expo with the 4th and 5th hatchery but otherwise this build looks alot better then standred 3 basespire 5 hatch hydra play due to better econ even though no air control at all.Thank you for making this guide for us fellow zergs to use.
May the next light shine/Former #1 Alliance LoL fan/ Current Teamliquid LoL Fan
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
July 05 2011 23:46 GMT
#79
On July 06 2011 05:35 LightningStrike wrote:
Very intresting build i just swap to zerg like 2 weeks ago and i might try this build. I tired of using 3 base spire 5 hatch hydra since it so weak in econ unless you double expo with the 4th and 5th hatchery but otherwise this build looks alot better then standred 3 basespire 5 hatch hydra play due to better econ even though no air control at all.Thank you for making this guide for us fellow zergs to use.

This makes no sense.
XXGeneration
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States625 Posts
July 06 2011 01:20 GMT
#80
On July 06 2011 08:46 koreasilver wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2011 05:35 LightningStrike wrote:
Very intresting build i just swap to zerg like 2 weeks ago and i might try this build. I tired of using 3 base spire 5 hatch hydra since it so weak in econ unless you double expo with the 4th and 5th hatchery but otherwise this build looks alot better then standred 3 basespire 5 hatch hydra play due to better econ even though no air control at all.Thank you for making this guide for us fellow zergs to use.

This makes no sense.


What he means is that instead of putting the 4th and 5th hatches as macro hatches at your natural and third, you double expo.

Which is stupid.
"I was so surprised when I first played StarCraft 2. I couldn't believe that such an easy game exists... I guess the best way to attract people these days is to make things easy and simple." -Midas
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