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http://gosugamers.net/starcraft/replays/15744
The hardest counter to it. Zerg misplayed badly. His macro might be good (1sh2sh3sh is useful talent toi have) but first lurker eggs on minute fourteen is somewhat late. Maybe it was a kind of handicapped game where Z tried to beat toss lategame army with hydras only, dont know. P used pretty standart build which isnt a counter to 5h gas, obviously, but rather 5h gas is intented to counter it, given Z is smart enough to add lurkers/lings/something at certain point, and this is mentioned in noone's post.
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On June 04 2011 04:42 DeuS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 03:17 shinjin wrote:
firstly, i noticed in some reps you overpool, and in the reps on FS you like this 11pool build, which i never considered before and is quite interesting. Do you always 11pool on FS? Yes, I like how it feels more. It gives a slightly better economy and still looks like an overpool, so 99% of protosses will treat it as such. Either way, protoss still needs to make a forge before nexus.
IMHO, I'd prefer overpool. If he scout u first, then u get lings before hatch, if not, get hatch before lings (ok, the pool will be useless for a while). With 11 pool, if he scout u at the first try and he has a semi godlike probe micro then ur nat hatch will be delayed until lings arrive. If he doesn't, ur hatch will be put down a bit earlier (1 or 2 sec, i think) compared to overpool with hatch b4 lings, same drone counts.
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On September 23 2011 10:45 [Cute]Pjnkje wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2011 04:42 DeuS wrote:On June 04 2011 03:17 shinjin wrote:
firstly, i noticed in some reps you overpool, and in the reps on FS you like this 11pool build, which i never considered before and is quite interesting. Do you always 11pool on FS? Yes, I like how it feels more. It gives a slightly better economy and still looks like an overpool, so 99% of protosses will treat it as such. Either way, protoss still needs to make a forge before nexus. IMHO, I'd prefer overpool. If he scout u first, then u get lings before hatch, if not, get hatch before lings (ok, the pool will be useless for a while). With 11 pool, if he scout u at the first try and he has a semi godlike probe micro then ur nat hatch will be delayed until lings arrive. If he doesn't, ur hatch will be put down a bit earlier (1 or 2 sec, i think) compared to overpool with hatch b4 lings, same drone counts.
It's just preference, do what you want.
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can't the Protoss just go mass cannon, 2 base Zealot/Reaver push when they scout you with sairs?
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I guess the effeciency of overpool/11pool is map-dependent, dont waste time arguing about it. On certain maps I go 9pool every ZvP and I'm fine with it.
vs 2 base Zealot/Reaver, you get lurks before they move out so it is possible to secure 4 and 5 while they are taking 3rd with reavers. I think it is still possible to outmacro P in this situation (however odds are against you if you built many of hydras early) and go straught to ling/ultras off 5 bases.
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On September 23 2011 16:22 gu-val wrote:
I guess the effeciency of overpool/11pool is map-dependent, dont waste time arguing about it. On certain maps I go 9pool every ZvP and I'm fine with it.
vs 2 base Zealot/Reaver, you get lurks before they move out so it is possible to secure 4 and 5 while they are taking 3rd with reavers. I think it is still possible to outmacro P in this situation (however odds are against you if you built many of hydras early) and go straught to ling/ultras off 5 bases.
I don't think lurks would be out in time vs something like that.
On September 23 2011 11:14 Xiphos wrote:
can't the Protoss just go mass cannon, 2 base Zealot/Reaver push when they scout you with sairs?
I don't understand how zealot/reaver would do anything vs mass hydra.
On September 19 2011 17:26 [Cute]Pjnkje wrote:
Hmmm, so what will you do when you face this build yourself, DeuS
No stargate w/ 7-8 speedzeal pressure directly into storm with a fast third.
On September 19 2011 17:40 Phyrigian wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 17:26 [Cute]Pjnkje wrote:
Hmmm, so what will you do when you face this build yourself, DeuS and how should zerg respond to this? or is it just who executes their respective build better in this situation?
Trying to bust the fast third or ignoring it while taking a fast fourth + containing.
It's always who executes their builds better, sc isn't so black and white.
On September 19 2011 11:06 ArvickHero wrote:
Is there a replay of any good Corsair/Reaver users against this strat? I'm curious as to how well this build would fare against the Zealot/Reaver timing attack that's used as a common followup in the pro-scene
also PvZ winrate 80% in Korean leagues wtf? Bisu might have a 80-90% win ration, but the rest of the Protosses are doing somewhat poorly in PvZ nowadays -_-
I don't have one. The only games vs sair/reaver I remember ended with a hydra backstab when toss moved his reavers for harass/to take a third.
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On September 17 2011 06:31 gu-val wrote:
I think I've found out how to counter this build. Due to high eco nature of 5h gas strategy, Z cant afford early game map control (no ling speed) and no runby can be executed (at least on certain maps). Thus, P skimps on defence and doesnt make stargate/mass zealots too (which is exactly what he does vs modern 3 hatch spire), goes directly for his templar, dragoon and zealot army from 6-7 gates. I dont see how Z can fight this without mutas, and there seems to be no way of taking 4th.
All of 5 provided reps are stargate first builds. I guess 5h gas build was initially intended to counter stargate opening, and any non-stargate opening is nice to counter 5h gas. 4gate speedzeal is plain stupid strategy, but fast arhives look fine. Something like citadel, +2 gates, archives, +3 gates is the most obvious way to fight hydra-lurker-ling army. Probably strategy vs non-stargate openings should be more clarified.
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I killed 3 such smarty-pants by hydra-lurk drop. As soon toss comes out with his templar tech, i symply drop hydra and lurks on his main, blocking ramp with eggs.
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I've found drops to be useful in some situations too, but I'm still unsure if it is more effective to simply contain Toss rather than dropping his base. Probably there is a certain timing point when you just cant keep P in bay, unburrow lurks and let him out.
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On September 27 2011 15:15 gu-val wrote:
Probably there is a certain timing point when you just cant keep P in bay, unburrow lurks and let him out.
If his army is really big and I see I could lose my contain, I unburrow lurks and move the hydra/lurk army away, but simultaneously send 6-8 lurks and about 20 hydras over to the side and drop them in his base as soon as I can see with my remaining forces (who are delaying his push as much as they can while setting up lurk/sunk/spore defense fronts at the naturals) that he is much too far from his base to get back in time.
You can usually take his whole base this way while defending your own with sunk/spore/lurk which if done right (snipe them obs!) can be game-ending.
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i really want to master this build, it looks so ridiculous. and i am a sucker for uber macro builds 
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EPT
