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United States24471 Posts
On September 26 2010 07:02 funnybananaman wrote:What does that even mean? TL is nothing more than the sum of its members. The only reason TL exists is because of the people that are part of it.
That argument works pretty well for a government. There's no point to a government without civilians, and the civilians are ultimately the most important group in the country.
Teamliquid started as the forums of the Liquid members' website which were opened up to the public. A lot has been added since then but this is still theoretically the forums associated with the website owned by the liquid organization. It is not owned by its users. If you want to know who really owns it you can look it up very easily, and they ultimately choose how the site gets used.
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I wish they were even stricter. These are some of the best run forums I've ever been apart of and they could still use some improvement.
Aside from topics made in a 'wasteland-esque' sub board, posts etc. should be intelligent and add to the conversation.
If you want to see what happens when modding take a backseat try and go read the sherdog forums. I swear you'll become retarded after 5 minutes of exposure.
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I've been banned once (link) and I felt that was undeserved. That was more of a case of a moderator disliking a certain topic and asking people not to post about it. What annoyed me most though, was that when I got banned not only did I have to stop posting for two days (not too bad), I was also directed to some Disney website when I tried to log in. (I didn't think it was funny, and in my opinion policy wise it's bad to insult people you ban, since while generally they will not agree with the ban anyway, having these stupid jokes doesn't encourage them to reflect on their behaviour as not being mature enough )
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You are our guests. We will make all attempts to treat everyone with due respect and to accommodate everyone's wishes as far as reasonably possible. But, this is a private site. We are not a "for profit" enterprise. We are not funded by any governments. This means we run the site the way we see fit. We are not obligated to observe anyone's notions of "free speech" or even "fairness." We try of course, and that's why we're consistently considered one of the best gaming sites on the web, and you are always free to give us suggestions (Website Feedback Forum). But, we have our limits. If we don't like you, we simply IP ban you. If we're really pissed off, then we IP ban you AND nuke every single post you've uploaded to the site - ever. It will be as if you had never existed here. This is our house. You've been warned.
I don't mind really.
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On September 26 2010 07:11 Mothxal wrote:I've been banned once ( link) and I felt that was undeserved. That was more of a case of a moderator disliking a certain topic and asking people not to post about it. What annoyed me most though, was that when I got banned not only did I have to stop posting for two days (not too bad), I was also directed to some Disney website when I tried to log in. (I didn't think it was funny, and in my opinion policy wise it's bad to insult people you ban, since while generally they will not agree with the ban anyway, having these stupid jokes doesn't encourage them to reflect on their behaviour as not being mature enough )
clearly you haven't read the guide.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=63830
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Braavos36362 Posts
On September 26 2010 06:39 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2010 06:36 Jibba wrote:On September 26 2010 05:35 cz wrote:On September 25 2010 15:38 Manifesto7 wrote:On September 25 2010 06:24 cz wrote:On September 25 2010 05:48 Manifesto7 wrote:On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:
While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes. I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased. Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell. On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.
His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_- On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote:
We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value. Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then. There are no shares because total ownership is in one person's hands or is in the hands of two or more people with an informal agreement. The bottom line, however, is that TL can both make money and has sell value. You don't get a check because the owner isn't willing to pay. It's the same thing with any website: pageviews and active membership create value that either is monetized or can be monetized through advertisement, direct sales, or so on. As a result the viewers add value to the site through their simple viewing of it (pageviews are a large factor in advertising rates) and through adding to the community which in turn attracts more. I think your perspective on how valuable your click is is way out there. Everything on the site is free, and if the side effect of you enjoying the content of the site is that we have a number to show an advertiser, that is not a direct contribution by you. It is a side effect of your presence. Even if you want to give a monetary value to your click, it is so out of whack with what you get in return that criticizing people for being thankful is really uncool. Your sense of entitlement is pretty sickening from my perspective. On September 25 2010 11:04 youlijp wrote:
I guess the fact that this is a gaming website, the majority of the moderators should be fairly younger than moderators from other forums. So maybe they are less patient or less forgiving as to how people express their ideas.
But it's up to us users with accounts from this website to know that they are the authority in here, and therefore we got to follow their rules. Not all of us are young... :p Business is business. The bottom line is this: 1. TL will produce a profit for its owner, whether it has to this date or whether it will come in the future. Nazgul will make money from TL. The money that he makes will/has come from a variety of methods, whether direct sales (e.g. having a TL store), selling advertisements, or indirectly through gathering a userbase that can be monetized easily through another method, like shuttling it to LP and collecting rakeback %, lesson commissions, advertisements there, direct sales there, and the many many other ways that LP makes a profit. 2. Without users, the site would make no profit. A decrease in users will almost certainly decrease profit; an increase will increase it. 3. The profit is thus created as a result of monetization of the site directly and indirectly, which requires a userbase, which requires content. 4. Many people create content, but a lot of the hard stuff is done by Nazgul / others who are not considered part of the userbase. 5. This forms a mutually beneficial relationship for both parties: the owner makes profit off monetizing the userbase and the users enjoy the community and services (ie TLPD) produced by the owner. 6. Therefore the idea that the users as a whole are in a submissive place to the owner is incorrect: both are at the mercy of the other. No users, no profit and no point in having content even for non-profit purposes as nobody enjoys it; no site done by owner, no content for users to enjoy. The point I was trying to correct was someone who contradicted point #6 by suggesting that users should just be happy with what they have and be quiet about it, as the site is putting in so much effort in creating content (TLPD, PowerRank, etc). As I stated above, it's a mutually beneficial relationship: while users should be happy content producers create content, the owner should be happy that users come here, and so users shouldn't feel that they are being done a favor: they are returning the favor, consciously or not, by being users. The owner is getting money in return. It's not about being entitled, it's about the acknowledgment of a mutually beneficial relationship in which both sides gain. That's a business interpretation of the site. Don't read too much into it beyond what I wrote. It doesn't mean that Nazgul created the site to make money, or that he is trying to monetize it as much as he can. It doesn't mean that people create content here to make money. It doesn't mean that users are conscious they are creating a profit for the owner. It doesn't mean that any one user being banned/leaving the site would have any noticeable effect on the site or the balance book. But, unless one of my premises is wrong, it is a correct (though specifically business) view of TL. This is one of the silliest derailments I've seen in some time. The point I was trying to correct was someone who contradicted point #6 by suggesting that users should just be happy with what they have and be quiet about it I think the person who said that clarified their meaning you're taking their words too literally, but absolutely users should speak up. I think criticism is welcome and most importantly necessary for us to keep TL on the path it's been going. We make mistakes and things need to be improved. No one should shy away from vocalizing those thoughts simply because the good outweighs the bad. I hope this seals your discussion. The only reason I was continuing that "derailment" was because it was constantly being disagreed with. I agree with your general conclusion, though, and am finished with it, though I suspect you will find that it is not as sealed as you think.
That would be fine if you had no alternate motive, but I feel that you have a personal issue with moderation and Manifesto in particular. As many users may not know, he banned you for one week on September 10 for this post that you made:
Thread: Ever had the urge to just lose it on TL?
On September 10 2010 04:58 cz wrote:
Only at the mods and the really high post count people who think they are gods and act like douchebags knowing that they won't face any repercussions. Meanwhile everyone has to be nice in replying to the troll-laced, down-syndrome induced, spastic post lest they be banned.
tl;dr Mods/high post count "vets" are the most rude and biggest trolls on the site but get away with it because TL is an awkward hierarchy instead of a community with integrity and uniformly enforced rules
User was temp banned for this post.
It's one thing to suggest improvements and say that site and users should appreciate each other, it's another to call all the staff here the "most rude douchebags." I do not feel that is a fair assessment of us.
Nowhere have we suggested that users should just be happy with what we give them, every day we try to look for ways to make TL better. We encourage feedback. If you feel this is just to generate more users and more money, that is your opinion. But I think that view is overly cynical. Of course TL would like to make more money, if only to compensate our hard working staff. But if it was only about that, the site would have sold out long ago. I know staff do what we do because we enjoy it. We enjoy building something worthwhile, and it's rewarding by itself. I feel that TL is more a community of peers rather than a Starcraft Walmart trying to attract customers.
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I've never been warned (On this account), granted I've been banned like 3 times I believe, but this was years ago I know full well I was out of line and being a troll. TL.net is actually a really great community for it, shit posters, and trolls don't last very long around here. I quite enjoy using this site, and if you follow the rules you'll be fine. I'm sure people have always said the quote in the OP was very ban/warn worthy so I won't even bother with it.
I won't lie though I've seen people banned for things they should have been banned for but most of those bans were filed by Rekrul who was a notorious dick when it came to moderation rofl. But whatever I suppose. The community doesn't pay for the site, even though we may be the reason this site is so successful but we're a dime a dozen, and very replaceable.
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On September 26 2010 07:15 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2010 06:39 cz wrote:On September 26 2010 06:36 Jibba wrote:On September 26 2010 05:35 cz wrote:On September 25 2010 15:38 Manifesto7 wrote:On September 25 2010 06:24 cz wrote:On September 25 2010 05:48 Manifesto7 wrote:On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:
While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes. I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased. Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell. On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.
His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_- On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote:
We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value. Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then. There are no shares because total ownership is in one person's hands or is in the hands of two or more people with an informal agreement. The bottom line, however, is that TL can both make money and has sell value. You don't get a check because the owner isn't willing to pay. It's the same thing with any website: pageviews and active membership create value that either is monetized or can be monetized through advertisement, direct sales, or so on. As a result the viewers add value to the site through their simple viewing of it (pageviews are a large factor in advertising rates) and through adding to the community which in turn attracts more. I think your perspective on how valuable your click is is way out there. Everything on the site is free, and if the side effect of you enjoying the content of the site is that we have a number to show an advertiser, that is not a direct contribution by you. It is a side effect of your presence. Even if you want to give a monetary value to your click, it is so out of whack with what you get in return that criticizing people for being thankful is really uncool. Your sense of entitlement is pretty sickening from my perspective. On September 25 2010 11:04 youlijp wrote:
I guess the fact that this is a gaming website, the majority of the moderators should be fairly younger than moderators from other forums. So maybe they are less patient or less forgiving as to how people express their ideas.
But it's up to us users with accounts from this website to know that they are the authority in here, and therefore we got to follow their rules. Not all of us are young... :p Business is business. The bottom line is this: 1. TL will produce a profit for its owner, whether it has to this date or whether it will come in the future. Nazgul will make money from TL. The money that he makes will/has come from a variety of methods, whether direct sales (e.g. having a TL store), selling advertisements, or indirectly through gathering a userbase that can be monetized easily through another method, like shuttling it to LP and collecting rakeback %, lesson commissions, advertisements there, direct sales there, and the many many other ways that LP makes a profit. 2. Without users, the site would make no profit. A decrease in users will almost certainly decrease profit; an increase will increase it. 3. The profit is thus created as a result of monetization of the site directly and indirectly, which requires a userbase, which requires content. 4. Many people create content, but a lot of the hard stuff is done by Nazgul / others who are not considered part of the userbase. 5. This forms a mutually beneficial relationship for both parties: the owner makes profit off monetizing the userbase and the users enjoy the community and services (ie TLPD) produced by the owner. 6. Therefore the idea that the users as a whole are in a submissive place to the owner is incorrect: both are at the mercy of the other. No users, no profit and no point in having content even for non-profit purposes as nobody enjoys it; no site done by owner, no content for users to enjoy. The point I was trying to correct was someone who contradicted point #6 by suggesting that users should just be happy with what they have and be quiet about it, as the site is putting in so much effort in creating content (TLPD, PowerRank, etc). As I stated above, it's a mutually beneficial relationship: while users should be happy content producers create content, the owner should be happy that users come here, and so users shouldn't feel that they are being done a favor: they are returning the favor, consciously or not, by being users. The owner is getting money in return. It's not about being entitled, it's about the acknowledgment of a mutually beneficial relationship in which both sides gain. That's a business interpretation of the site. Don't read too much into it beyond what I wrote. It doesn't mean that Nazgul created the site to make money, or that he is trying to monetize it as much as he can. It doesn't mean that people create content here to make money. It doesn't mean that users are conscious they are creating a profit for the owner. It doesn't mean that any one user being banned/leaving the site would have any noticeable effect on the site or the balance book. But, unless one of my premises is wrong, it is a correct (though specifically business) view of TL. This is one of the silliest derailments I've seen in some time. The point I was trying to correct was someone who contradicted point #6 by suggesting that users should just be happy with what they have and be quiet about it I think the person who said that clarified their meaning you're taking their words too literally, but absolutely users should speak up. I think criticism is welcome and most importantly necessary for us to keep TL on the path it's been going. We make mistakes and things need to be improved. No one should shy away from vocalizing those thoughts simply because the good outweighs the bad. I hope this seals your discussion. The only reason I was continuing that "derailment" was because it was constantly being disagreed with. I agree with your general conclusion, though, and am finished with it, though I suspect you will find that it is not as sealed as you think. That would be fine if you had no alternate motive, but I feel that you have a personal issue with moderation and Manifesto in particular. As many users may not know, he banned you for one week on September 10 for this post that you made: Thread: Ever had the urge to just lose it on TL?Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 04:58 cz wrote:
Only at the mods and the really high post count people who think they are gods and act like douchebags knowing that they won't face any repercussions. Meanwhile everyone has to be nice in replying to the troll-laced, down-syndrome induced, spastic post lest they be banned.
tl;dr Mods/high post count "vets" are the most rude and biggest trolls on the site but get away with it because TL is an awkward hierarchy instead of a community with integrity and uniformly enforced rules
User was temp banned for this post. It's hard to take you seriously about community and staff respecting each other when you personally feel that our staff are the "most rude douchebags." Nowhere have we suggested that users should just be happy with what we give them, every day we try to look for ways to make TL better. We encourage feedback. Whether you feel this is just to generate money for some faceless owner, that is your opinion. But I think that view is overly cynical. Of course TL would like to make more money, but if it was only about that, the site would have sold out long ago. I know staff do what we do because we enjoy it. We enjoy building something worthwhile, and it's rewarding by itself. I feel that TL is more a community of peers rather than a Starcraft Walmart trying to attract customers.
That quote reflects an exaggerated view of my thoughts on moderation here; it's a single post. It is taken out of context, though: the entire thread (actually a blog) was in that tone. I thought it was fair in context of the blog, Manifesto disagreed, I ate a ban. I took the ban, decided I enjoyed the site more than I was willing to continue to make my views made about moderation, and moved on.
With that said, none of that influenced what I've said in this thread. I never commented on my own views on moderation in this thread, nor have I gone after any of the mods. My posts concern the relationship between users and content producers (ownership) in the business that TL is, whether purposefully or not. Whether or not you take me seriously is up to you, but my own views don't take away from the truth (or lack thereof) of my arguments. To suggest so would just be an ad hominem.
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TL's moderating is what makes it the best forum on the internet.
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On September 26 2010 07:13 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2010 07:11 Mothxal wrote:I've been banned once ( link) and I felt that was undeserved. That was more of a case of a moderator disliking a certain topic and asking people not to post about it. What annoyed me most though, was that when I got banned not only did I have to stop posting for two days (not too bad), I was also directed to some Disney website when I tried to log in. (I didn't think it was funny, and in my opinion policy wise it's bad to insult people you ban, since while generally they will not agree with the ban anyway, having these stupid jokes doesn't encourage them to reflect on their behaviour as not being mature enough ) clearly you haven't read the guide. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=63830
Might be. It's still one of those features deeply rooted in TL's past as a place for the in-crowd where things were just as much about rivalries and alpha male posturing as for discussion. Imagine that feature wasn't there, and now try to convince your fellow moderators to implement it.
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Alot of the banning isn't justified such as my old account got banned for the name, a mod PM'd me and told me to get back to him in a day with a new name or I'll get banned, I did, nothing happened for a week than I log in and i'm banned, not even temp banned just banned. But on the other hand the very strict manner in which they conduct really discourages trolling and alot of flamewars, your example, although the guy shouldn't get banned for that if they let that go on it snowballs into a huge flamewar, there's postivies and negatives, negatives alot of the time areare peolpe too afriad to speak there mind if they disagree with a thread for fear of looking like a troll or getting banned
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I think they are strict on personal attacks and that is ok with me, no place for that.
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On September 25 2010 02:39 chimthegrim wrote:This thread as an example: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=155453The first response was a guy that said this: Show nested quote +
"Come on guys... Idra isnt god... he gonna qq like every other zerg player because they didnt receive buff..."
User was warned for this post
User was temp banned for this post.
So now the question I am raising here is "Is TL a little too strict on what can or can't be said on the forums?" The example I provided is someone who in obvious disagreement and he has expressed that by saying "Idra isn't god." Yet, this is ban worthy? I'm wondering why it is so easy to get temp banned on TL. Well, just a thought. Hopefully I don't get banned for this post.
tbh I think they go easy on a lot of people (maybe myself included)
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I know one particular instance where me(the op) intended for a certain point, but due to the lack of quality responses the thread gets closed, as opposed to trying to steer the posts to the meaning of the OP. Example:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=151650
I really felt I learned alot from his speech, and many of his approaches could be applied to starcraft.
However, it turned into a "mythbusters suck/rocks" thread, which clearly wasn't my point. The mods ended up closing the thread. I felt punished for trying to share something with my fellow gamers, but a few couldn't resist to take the thread offtopic.
Overall though, the mods here are excellent. I enjoy being here, and can't wait until teamliquid expands!
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It's really funny to see how people confuse TL.net's system with democracy, when the main difference is that TL.net's system actually works and democracy doesn't.
Edit: Equality is for pussies!
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This is a very bad thread.
If it weren't about Mod-smash it'd be closed.
TL is awesome because people get banned. Bad threads get deleted, trolls get expelled, misguided people get the point hammered into them... Plus you get to read the ban list and the ban thread which is very entertaining.
Please don't ban me for this.
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The point I was trying to correct was someone who contradicted point #6 by suggesting that users should just be happy with what they have and be quiet about it
Except I want you to be quiet about it because I like moderation as harsh as it is, and if anything, I would like it to be harsher, and thats coming from a "consumer", under your analysis, just like you. The reason why TL is like it is isn't because users are just being deferent to the profiteering staff, its because users like strict moderation that keeps the riffraff out.
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The only thing I don't like is the favoritism for long-time members or mods or former mods ... or famous players. There is a little too much hero-worshipping in general (among staff and the general TL masses).
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On September 26 2010 09:53 lac29 wrote:
The only thing I don't like is the favoritism for long-time members or mods or former mods ... or famous players. There is a little too much hero-worshipping in general (among staff and the general TL masses).
I think the idea behind that is that people like IdrA, Day[9], Rekrul, and other notables on TL.net have earned their keep. I understand your position when it comes to generic long-time members (not naming names), but the icons of this site have done more than enough for the community to warrant favoritism. Besides, most of the bashers of people like MorroW, IdrA, etc. are relatively recent arrivals to TL. If you're in that position, you have no right to demean the works of a mod/admin/contributor/pro until you yourself have contributed enough to mirror their achievements.
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To me even mods/famous players should be questioned if appropriately worded posts/questions are made. There should be accountability at every level. Just look at a place like reddit. Even famous reddit posters are questioned when ppl think they are wrong.
I simply think there is a little *too* much favoritism (obviously not enough to make me leave TL, but enough to annoy me quite a bit sometimes). Being a famous TL poster doesn't mean common courtesy and appropriate language are not required (I'm thinking about two particular ppl but I'm sure there are many).
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EPT
