"Come on guys... Idra isnt god... he gonna qq like every other zerg player because they didnt receive buff..."
User was warned for this post
User was temp banned for this post.
So now the question I am raising here is "Is TL a little too strict on what can or can't be said on the forums?"
The example I provided is someone who in obvious disagreement and he has expressed that by saying "Idra isn't god." Yet, this is ban worthy? I'm wondering why it is so easy to get temp banned on TL.
Well, just a thought. Hopefully I don't get banned for this post.
personally, i think the fact that TL is strict is why i love it so much as a forum. the post your talking about, really didnt benefit the thread whatsoever, in fact it was right on the way to ruining a good thread. as a result he got his bans.
TL does a good job. I have been to way too many forums where users run amok, and frankly I am tired of it. Maybe its because I'm in my 20s now, but I really appreciate TL's moderators. There is a reason this is the only forum I come to anymore.
If anything, they are not strict enough. One of my first posts on TL was greeted with another user telling me that I should kill myself for posting my ideas. He was never even warned for it
EDIT: And the guy you quoted was a retard, the Mod in that thread said "This is an example of how one bad post de-rails a good thread". The guy screwed up the thread, he deserved what he got.
The amount of idiots at the present time warrants it. That guy's comment was stupid and not constructive in any way. If anything I think the mods need to amp up the ban hammering
TL used to be the finest community on the internet that i've ever seen and it has been in steady decline of post quality in the SC2 forums ever since the beta started, so i think it's fair that they're taking matters into their own hands on their website.
Are you kidding? That is the perfect example of a completely shitty post derailing the thread. He didn't even read the interview, made an assumption and like 5 posts on the first page were telling him he is an idiot instead of responding to the opening post.
If you want to troll, you can go to pretty much any other forum on the internet, just stay the fuck out of teamliquid. Free speech is cool as long as you follow the 10 commandments and in general, just be respectful.
"Come on guys... Idra isnt god... he gonna qq like every other zerg player because they didnt receive buff..."
User was warned for this post
User was temp banned for this post.
So now the question I am raising here is "Is TL a little too strict on what can or can't be said on the forums?"
The example I provided is someone who in obvious disagreement and he has expressed that by saying "Idra isn't god." Yet, this is ban worthy? I'm wondering why it is so easy to get temp banned on TL.
Well, just a thought. Hopefully I don't get banned for this post.
It is temp-ban worthy imo, the thread was IdrA's opinion on the patch notes. This guy who is stating that "IdrA isnt god" etc wasn't talking about patch notes, or IdrA's opinion on them, just his opinion on IdrA
That guy deserved it. Idra writes a well thought out structured post about the current state of the game and someone whos been here for a week comes in and starts saying all hes doing is qq'ing about zerg being underpowered?
If your response to ANY well thought out post is something along the lines of "stop qq'ing" or "l2play" then you deserve a ban
Im sure if his post was more structured and he actually read the post where idra said that the patch didnt change much but is a step in the right direction.
Instead he made a post that will only cause flaming and derail the actual discussion, fully justified ban imo
i LOVE TL's moderation. The philosophy "Add something useful to the conversation, or bugger off." and "Direct attacks = warn/ban" makes the discussion so much more interesting.
Note: I did not issue the ban cited and didn't have anything to do with it. This is just my take on moderation that isn't representative for all Mods.
Let's talk about your example, you say:
The example I provided is someone who in obvious disagreement and he has expressed that by saying "Idra isn't god." Yet, this is ban worthy? I'm wondering why it is so easy to get temp banned on TL.
Now, firstly he posted in a thread that was about Idra being interviewed about the patch. So there is nothing to 'disagree' about. It's not remotely related to the topic of the thread. Secondly, he used a sweeping generalization, "every other zerg player". We don't like those racial stereotypes. We ban people for dissing Terran for being OP, we ban people for dissing Zerg about complaining. Thirdly, he uses bad spelling, interpunctuation, and stereotypical low-effort internet lingo. That, too, is despicable.
So in short, what we don't like is derailing a thread by posting stuff that doesn't belong there, and we give even worse marks for putting now effort into the posting. The opinion isn't important. If you disagree with anything that Idra said content-wise, you are welcome to express it, if you feel like his opinion is generally being heeded too much, you might find a way to formulate it. But not like this.
I've lurked/posted in a lot of forums, and TL has the best moderators by far. They would rather have quality posting instead quantitative garbage. Even with an influx of new players they've handled it.
I, for one, appreciate what the mods do to keep this place civil. Taking action against unconstructive posters like that is part of the reason that Team Liquid has such a high quality community in the first place. The minute you open your forums to free discussion, you'll get all sorts of pointless bickering and trolling (see: the official Blizzard forums). Thankfully the Blizzard forums absorb most of the bad posters and keep them away from the fansites.
I've never felt like the moderation here is too strict. In fact, its probably not as strict as it used to be given the increase in post number post sc2 beta. I would imagine it would feel strict to the average 12 year old chatroulette trolling 4chan user so if you feel like its too strict there are many forums you can talk sc on such as the wonderful battle.net forums or gamefaqs.
It happens far too often now =/. His post wasn't relevant to the OP, other than the fact he included Idra in the post. On top of that, his post caused others to comment about it and derailed the thread.
some of the warnings can be a little confusing without context, which might or might not be fully explained in that particular thread. Most of them are self-explanatory though. I think something like:
User was warned for this post. Reason: some set, pre-made automated response like "trolling" or "internet meme"
that's probably too much work though. The vast majority of warnings are pretty justified imo.
I was warned for my "FFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUNGAL GROWTH!" post and I got pissed off for a while until I completely realised how non-constructive that line was (even though I still think fungal growth demolishes marine army). I'm a very long time reader - my account was created only to be able to take part in some voting, but I just started posting at the era of SC2.
I have a really high respect for the seriously awesome work that the admins do in order to keep the forums effective and useful for all. I've been admining also at Quake 2 scene and I undestand what works and what doesn't (nothing happens if everyone is scared of "getting dirty").
It isn't really about the poster's rights. It's more about what readers have to read. There isn't any way for anyone to benefit from reading the post you quoted. It's completely trash and I don't know why you'd want the thousands of people looking at that thread to read that comment.
What is most frustrating is users stating "I hope I don't get banned for this" when they are simply posting feedback or criticism of our website. We aren't the Ministry of Truth and this isn't 1984. If you're reasonable and polite, nobody is going to ban you even if you completely disagree with how we do things. We've always prided ourselves on TL's ability to be open about criticism, admit when we're wrong, and correct mistaken bans.
What you're describing in the OP isn't a free speech issue. If we banned you for posting this thread, then yes that's a problem. But the guy you quoted is a really bad example because he's ignoring the thread to post his own opinion on Idra. His post just leads to people responding to him and an argument about "QQing" rather than discussing the actual topic. Thus, we feel a temp ban was the right action to take.
"Come on guys... Idra isnt god... he gonna qq like every other zerg player because they didnt receive buff..."
User was warned for this post
User was temp banned for this post.
So now the question I am raising here is "Is TL a little too strict on what can or can't be said on the forums?"
The example I provided is someone who in obvious disagreement and he has expressed that by saying "Idra isn't god." Yet, this is ban worthy? I'm wondering why it is so easy to get temp banned on TL.
Well, just a thought. Hopefully I don't get banned for this post.
he responded in a bad tone that leads me to believe he was a troll.
saying stuff like "zerg qq idrabadlol" isn't the same as saying "in my opinion the reason why zergs aren't doing as well isn't because of their UPness, it is because (insert reason here) " and back it up with logic.
you aren't going to a debate saying stuff like "lol u suck"
On September 25 2010 02:55 Hot_Bid wrote: What is most frustrating is users stating "I hope I don't get banned for this" when they are simply posting feedback or criticism of our website. We aren't the Ministry of Truth and this isn't 1984. If you're reasonable and polite, nobody is going to ban you even if you completely disagree with how we do things. We've always prided ourselves on TL's ability to be open about criticism, admit when we're wrong, and correct mistaken bans.
What you're describing in the OP isn't a free speech issue. If we banned you for posting this thread, then yes that's a problem. But the guy you quoted is a really bad example because he's ignoring the thread to post his own opinion on Idra. His post just leads to people responding to him and an argument about "QQing" rather than discussing the actual topic. Thus, we feel a temp ban was the right action to take.
On September 25 2010 02:55 Hot_Bid wrote: What is most frustrating is users stating "I hope I don't get banned for this" when they are simply posting feedback or criticism of our website. We aren't the Ministry of Truth and this isn't 1984. If you're reasonable and polite, nobody is going to ban you even if you completely disagree with how we do things. We've always prided ourselves on TL's ability to be open about criticism, admit when we're wrong, and correct mistaken bans.
Well I would hardly call TL moderation strict. Sites like Elitestjerks are strict and well it works really well there. I find people are just too used to forums being overly lax in moderation so they perceive any form of moderation as being "strict". People shouldn't be able to post whatever they please.
On September 25 2010 02:55 Liquid`Tyler wrote: It isn't really about the poster's rights. It's more about what readers have to read. There isn't any way for anyone to benefit from reading the post you quoted. It's completely trash and I don't know why you'd want the thousands of people looking at that thread to read that comment.
basically if you got strong opinion you'll eventually stack temp bans and/or get banned, or if the mod is drunk late at night
most of the old timers have one or more banned acct
although the influx of sc2 ppl brought a lot of crap posters who post at other places with no moderation whatsoever. these people deserve it. Mods are harder on newbies which makes sense on TL. Only way you gotta learn.
I do see the occasional temp ban that I think was judged a little bit to harsh but overall the vast majority of the bans is correct imo. The risk with having a strict ban policy is that every once in a while a post that balanced on the edge gets banned and that's to bad for the user it concerned who perhaps didn't mean harm or wasn't even aware he was balancing on the edge. But to be honest I have it this way any time over a forum with looser policies and more "trash".
On September 25 2010 02:55 Liquid`Tyler wrote: It isn't really about the poster's rights. It's more about what readers have to read. There isn't any way for anyone to benefit from reading the post you quoted. It's completely trash and I don't know why you'd want the thousands of people looking at that thread to read that comment.
Yeah.
It gets even more magnified when it's the first reply to a thread as that always gets looked at more harshly. First reply can turn even the best OP into a trash thread. (ie memes, derailment, posters trying to pretend to be cute/funny/smart with some dumb joke etc.)
On September 25 2010 03:01 .risingdragoon wrote: basically if you got strong opinion you'll eventually stack temp bans and/or get banned
most of the old timers have one or more banned acct
The problem isn't in those opinions but in how they are voiced. I have seen a lot of veterans receiving bans because they were just trash talking and trying to destroy the people who didn't agree with them without even trying to justify their own opinion.
So imo you are flat out wrong concerning this statement.
A lot of people have this deluded concept that 'freedom of speech' carries over to the internet, that combined with the anonymity of online actions can cause a huge amount of stupid stuff being said, and overall poor posting.
TL's mods are completely in their right to moderate the community in any way they see fit, without strict moderators and the discipline they enforce, TL would run the risk of becoming like 4chan (less of the risk, since TL deals with starcraft, and good manners are pretty admirable in the professional scene).
Edit: actually...Mr. OP, if you would like a amount of concise feedback from the community, you might be able to put a poll in the OP to provide a general trend.
I love strictness of TL, and sometimes i wish it woud be even stronger. It realy helps forums, and site in general.
As to the quote mentioned in OP i happen to agree with it, but that user posted his opinion in wrong way, that was invitation to flamewar not constructive opinion nor constructive criticizm. While i belive the criticizm of inverviewed person do have place in disscusion about interview that certainly was not the way to do it.
That post brought absolutely nothing to the discussion except for the negativity. Permaban IMO, but I understand that the mods can be humane at times too.
On September 25 2010 03:01 .risingdragoon wrote: basically if you got strong opinion you'll eventually stack temp bans and/or get banned
most of the old timers have one or more banned acct
The problem isn't in those opinions but in how they are voiced. I have seen a lot of veterans receiving bans because they were just trash talking and trying to destroy the people who didn't agree with them without even trying to justify their own opinion.
So imo you are flat out wrong concerning this statement.
you haven't been around long nuff. you can be very calm and sensible and get banned,
shit I have, I got a 30 day for talking in favor of kespa when bliz muscled in when it first happened, now mostly everybody sees and gets it now
and I got a per ban for alerting people to 1-year free antivirus subscription, just cus I didn't put enough effort into the OP.
I think I'm on my last warming still lol, only reason I'm not is cus I contributed a lot back in the day on live threads, articles, R&S, and all that.
If this is a problem give me 10 examples over the past year. Given the numbers of posts and bans this site has there should easily be able to find 10 people so wronged.
LOL. Please look at my join date before making that statement. It is true I didn't post for many years but I always visited TL everyday and read (I dare to say) a VERY large part of the posts.
I think the moderating is perfect. There's no reason anyone has to post like a dumb ass. It seems like as long as you make your reasoning clear, and your tone isn't completely out of bounds, you will be fine.
I love TL Forum moderators because it prevents this forum from turning into something what the SC2 Websites is currently. If you go to the SC2 website the forum is just plaguuuuuuuuuuued by horrid bad posts. Almost all topics are about OP and QQ. Nerf this and that. And pointless threads. Just have a look. :r
Every time i post i run the risk of having Bronze leaguers and people who havent even played a single ladder match telling me im wrong and thumbs downing my post because they simply dislike my personal opinion.
Too strict is better then having no mods at all. And I openly accept TL moderators.
Look at every user who was banned after 1000 posts. They all deserved to be banned, but were tolerated for so long. TL has a lot of patience, but sometimes that patience has to be purchased with good behavior on the side. A person with not enough posts to give an accurate indicator of character BMs Idra, says QQ, and applies it an entire SC race like it's some sort of hive-mind mentality (lol), therefore also technically bitching about imbalance which is also a ban-able offense. I would perm him.
If balance talk was reserve exclusively to a specific forum, I would have no complaints about TL moderation. Right now, what constitute whining and constructive balance criticism is vague and people just ride the fine line in between in all forums.
And I'll try and let some of the newer folks into the heads of some of the moderators. Before SC2 came out this website was an very close community. There were the base group of users who all knew each other , then there were the new users who over time would either leave the site or become part of the base group. Everyone had their own personality and you could generally know what to expect going into threads created by particular users. Everyone could basically shoot the shit, read some news if they wanted, read some strat section, etc. and almost never miss any thread they deemed interesting.
Since SC2 that feeling of "personality" each user has has diminished alot. It's hard (impossible) to get to know all the new users, and you no longer know what to expect going into the vast majority of threads. Before you could tell by looking at the poster. Incontrol would be arguing with people / trolling / posting some wise starcraft strategy. CharlieMurphy would be trolling even harder. Rekrul would be posting some crazy ass story / touching on some taboo subject. You get the point.
Now its near impossible to distinguish between the good threads and the bad threads without going into them. I think alot of bans are resulting from this. Mods like to read interesting articles and stories just as much as we do, but when they feel they are wasting their time due to the large influx of bad / un-interesting threads their patience wears. Most mods probably want TL back to the old way, and banning lower than good quality users is potentially one way to do this. I feel its a lost cause at this point in time, while starcraft 2 is at the peak of its popularity, but it still needs to be done to keep some semblance of quality posting visible.
On September 25 2010 03:15 Golden Ghost wrote: @.risingdragoon
LOL. Please look at my join date before making that statement. It is true I didn't post for many years but I always visited TL everyday and read (I dare to say) a VERY large part of the posts.
ahhh shit, u r an oldie, I only go back to late 2006 or so, and I thought I didn't post a lot.
but honestly I think you need to post more to know moderation. mostly it's good, and other times not. vets have to do quite a lot to get perm banned though
They are not too strict. Stopping flame wars in their tracks is a mark of a great forum. Also banning someone and coming back on the decision is better than not banning a troll and getting tons of spams.
Are they too strict? Nah, I'm willing to go as far as them being too lenient. Stupidity should be punishable. At least, here it is. If I'd want 4-chan or B.net forums level of discussions I'd go there. I expect more from people here. If I'd want to be rick rolled in every other thread in the OP, I would go to another place. If I'd want bronze level players talking balance and disregarding diamond players and progamers, I'd go to the b.net forums. Don't tell me I don't know what jokes are. I do. The only jokes I hate are the same ones that get reposted over and over again, like that stupid Idra's impression on patch video. I spend enough time on the internet to get sick of it in every SC2/BW thread I see in a lot of forums. It was funny the 1st 3 times. Now it's just annoying.
If you want to let this forum degenerate into a garbage bin of the internet, then that is your choice.
Also i have seen similar topics before (more than once i could add), usualy they end in mods being reassured in their ways (and rightly so).
On September 25 2010 03:15 Golden Ghost wrote: @.risingdragoon
LOL. Please look at my join date before making that statement. It is true I didn't post for many years but I always visited TL everyday and read (I dare to say) a VERY large part of the posts.
I have joined same week as You did (or week after) and we have almost the same post count LURKER HIGH FIVE
i've seen a few unnecessary warns or bans, but it's so gratifying to see someone who posted 'First' or some equally worthless troll or flame get temp banned.
So yeah i don't believe TL Admins are too harsh. Although occasionally they close some topics which might have merit, but it is their forum if they don't want that discussed that's their right.
i am not referring to zerg qq threads either. IF those weren't closed that's all there would be.
On September 25 2010 03:22 Godstorm wrote: dude this isn't a site run by democratic ellection. mods do whatever they want
that kind of comment is just dumb man. TL is well orginazed, and that's why it's the best site out there. People like you just get banned for saying some dumb shit like that
On September 25 2010 03:15 Golden Ghost wrote: @.risingdragoon
LOL. Please look at my join date before making that statement. It is true I didn't post for many years but I always visited TL everyday and read (I dare to say) a VERY large part of the posts.
ahhh shit, u r an oldie, I only go back to late 2006 or so, and I thought I didn't post a lot.
but honestly I think you need to post more to know moderation. mostly it's good, and other times not. vets have to do quite a lot to get perm banned though
You are forgiven And with regards to your last part I guess I'll find that out in the long run
If a person ran into a church yelling that religion is a lie and gets escorted out, is that a restriction on free speech? I would think not, same thing here.
The forum isn't too strict. It should be even stricter if it were up to me but im fine with the way it is. A forum is for civilized discussion about interesting topics. People who just want to blow it out their asses can go to the local pub and start fights there (lol, yea right, internet ego ftw).
I agree that some posts don't deserve to get banned for what they've said, but generally the bans I see don't surprise me.
Honestly, just keep your opinion respectful and say it in a respectful way. If you're saying things that you know will get many people into a heated debate or angry, you're just asking for it.
Now for people who say that the poster that got banned didn't contribute to the topic, that's a lame excuse. Why? Because I see a million posts a day saying "cool!" "I agree!" "that's awesome man!" and do those in any way contribute to a topic? No, they don't.
However, I agree with those that say he made a post that was going to lead the topic to ruin. He deserved the ban for basically just trying to annoy people because honestly, after reading what he said I don't even think he read what idra posted, or gave any thought to it if he did.
Also funny the amount of brown nosers I see on here, who just accept whatever TL does without criticism "it's teh best forum evar!" "Moderation is perfect! I would make it even stricter if I could!"
If anything i'd want them to ban more people for stupid posts So many "waaahh this and this is too strong" threads around. And the post you mentioned OP was really a useless troll post, claiming Idra isn't happy "since he didnt get buffed" is something drooling idiots on the WoW forums talk about, pro players usually want balance, since they enjoy a challenge, everyone doesnt want everything handed to them.
"Come on guys... Idra isnt god... he gonna qq like every other zerg player because they didnt receive buff..."
User was warned for this post
User was temp banned for this post.
So now the question I am raising here is "Is TL a little too strict on what can or can't be said on the forums?"
The example I provided is someone who in obvious disagreement and he has expressed that by saying "Idra isn't god." Yet, this is ban worthy? I'm wondering why it is so easy to get temp banned on TL.
Well, just a thought. Hopefully I don't get banned for this post.
The tone and quality of a discussion in a new thread is set as much, if not moreso, by the first reply in the thread as/than it is by the OP. This loser came in, spammed some useless bullshit for the first reply, ruined any potential of having a decent thread, and got banned for it. As he should have been.
Post responsibly, that's all. Don't ruin threads. It's not that hard. This example should not be taken out of context.
This has nothing to do with 'strictness of speech' and everything to do with being a contibuting part of the discussion. You and your buddies can be talking about the economy and if I pop in and say "Bernanke touches children" you probably won't want me to take part in any further discussion because all I'm doing is trying to ruin whatever it is you guys are trying to do. Of course, if the discussion was about 'who does and does not touch children', you wouldn't kick me out of your little circle - nor would I be banned for saying such on a message board.
This isn't goddamn rocket science. It's about functioning properly and playing well with others. Stop trying to create drama where there is none.
They could be stricter imho. Some posts on sc2 general are borderline permaban worthy. But anyways mods are doing their job and so far they have done it quite well.
Gamefaqs has the worse mods on a video game message board. Just google "gamefaqs mods" and you will find much hate on sites like ED and uncyclo
You can get modded for anything, because the mods will bend the rules as much as they want.
And no mod ever gets overturned unless the mod modded something so incredibly stupid that the poster will spam it everywhere and the mod will get flammed lol.
TL mods are strict, but at least they are human, and will ignore a lot of stuff.
Gamefaqs mods get-off on modding as much as possible and making people mad.
I got banned a few times, but I'm not mad at them. Those posts that I got banned for doesn't mean that they are bad(some may be) but it just isn't what TL is about and these bans reminded me of that and it helps keep this site good.
Seriously though, I think moderating a forum this large is a bit of a slippery slope (and I hate slippery slope arguments.) Every action and non-action gets magnified and influences other users. If you see a user get warned, hopefully you'll understand why and not repeat it yourself. If you see people getting angry or overly rude and there's no action taken, then it's a subconscious endorsement for that type of behavior. So on the fine line of perfect fairness (not that it ever really exists), we tend towards being more conservative so that things don't get out of hand. The overall goal is to keep the forums moving smoothly and to have mostly content filled discussion. That's why things like poll threads are geerally not allowed.
I knew about all that before becoming a banling but what I didn't anticipate is having to read the forum differently. Reading for pleasure and scanning as a moderator are quite different. There is a process though and hopefully things are open enough so that reasonable appeals can be made.
EDIT: And of course, I've been warned a few times as well. I definitely deserved them and may have deserved a ban for one of them. D:
Frankly I love the mods here, I hate this rubbish internet lingo that people speak in just because they can not be bothered to take even one more minute while making their posts. I smile every time I see someone getting banned for posting uninformed bullsh*t because frankly they deserve it. The TL mods to a great job of preventing the sc2 section from becoming a second 4chan.
If the reply doesn't contribute to a post, that's one thing. But when a post works to actively derail the thread and turn it into a "all Zerg are whiners" conversation, that's where the line should be drawn.
I know the mods are just trying to keep this site with some kind of intellectual content. I'm not exactly a seasoned expert of the game, but I take StarCraft seriously enough where when I come onto what is supposed to be the leading authority on the subject, and see nothing but threads with a really well thought-out OP, and nothing but garbage as replies, it breaks my little zerg heart lol.
Also, I've been warned for a few posts, so I know how that feeling is. But when you look back at it, chances are you deserve it, and I have to congratulate the mods and admins for their work and contributions to the site.
They're not strict... if someone acts as a fucking idiot he gets warned or punished beacuse of his act. Its the only way to mod a forum, and unfortunantly so many forum mods don't give a shit about what their users write and they actually allow 2 word responses, random jibberish and insulting.
Ive been a part of many web communities but i've ended up leaving them beacuse of how retarded the forums are to read. Luckily TL hasn't taken that route.
It's like the lowest level of trolling. You could ban for taking the low hanging fruit there. Or the fact that it's actually a really good observation by a top player and he doesn't even say a word about it.
He isn't in disagreement about anything. He didn't even address the analysis that the player provided.
On September 25 2010 03:24 Latham wrote: Are they too strict? Nah, I'm willing to go as far as them being too lenient. Stupidity should be punishable. At least, here it is. If I'd want 4-chan or B.net forums level of discussions I'd go there. I expect more from people here. If I'd want to be rick rolled in every other thread in the OP, I would go to another place. If I'd want bronze level players talking balance and disregarding diamond players and progamers, I'd go to the b.net forums. Don't tell me I don't know what jokes are. I do. The only jokes I hate are the same ones that get reposted over and over again, like that stupid Idra's impression on patch video. I spend enough time on the internet to get sick of it in every SC2/BW thread I see in a lot of forums. It was funny the 1st 3 times. Now it's just annoying.
If you want to let this forum degenerate into a garbage bin of the internet, then that is your choice.
"WTF! TERRAN WAS ALREADY UNDERPOWERED! NOW THEY MADE IT EVEN WORSE! SIEGE TANKS DO NOTHING TO ZERG NOW!!!!"
If we let every 30 post person go on about how Idra is just some bm complainer, or doesn't know what he's doing, then we'll have threads filled with pages and pages of useless posts that are dumb and just old at this point. Mods do a great job cleaning up the forum so it stays a real quality place.
There are two kinds of mentalities behind forum communities. One is self indulgence, and the other is about building communities. TL.net is the latter.
You shouldn't just ask yourself "Am I flaming". You should ask yourself "Am I contributing"
It seems like the idea of Contributing is unknown to the new players who are joining this site. There is nothing wrong with having an opinion, but express it in a meaningful way instead of spewing trash pundits that derail threads and cause trolling.
Hell, the reason I came to this site was because of the moderation. I'm sick of the terribadness from GameFAQs and Battle.net and such; the only site that even REMOTELY compares to this site in terms of quality is Smogon, and even then, TL has a massive lead.
That guy deserved the ban he got and more. A perfectly good topic with plenty of opportunity for discussion and intelligent debate was ruined by one shit-on-a-stick with a grudge against IdrA. The first replier to a topic is given the onus of propelling a good discussion; if you're an idiot and post an image macro, whine, "first", or other inanities, you should be shut down RIGHTEOUSLY.
The best forum I went to was regulated like a nazi death camp. Topics could only be started by mods; all other topics were created and then mods would move them to a public forum if they felt they were worth discussion. If you didn't contribute in the thread by adding something either: insightful, relevant, or funny your post would be deleted. If it were really bad you'd be banned.
If you went off topic, your post would be deleted and you might be banned. If you typed like an idiot and couldn't form a coherent sentence you'd be banned. If you posted simple 1 or 2 sentence replies like, "I agree." or "lol", your post would be deleted and banned. If you argued with the mods (about something stupid or a post being deleted) you'd be banned. If people found you out to be lying or taking advantage, you'd be banned.
A high standard of posters is something I wish would always be enforced. Call me elitist, but I'd wear that badge proudly. I'm not suggesting TL be moderated like that, but holding people to a high standard is something everybody should want.
I like it, its not like Elitist Jerks were you get warned for two or three misspellings in a thread. It may seem a bit harsh, but you let the guy trolling around, a thousand more come and dance on your backs :>
On September 25 2010 02:50 Mephit wrote: I've lurked/posted in a lot of forums, and TL has the best moderators by far. They would rather have quality posting instead quantitative garbage. Even with an influx of new players they've handled it.
On September 25 2010 03:21 jimminy_kriket wrote: And I'll try and let some of the newer folks into the heads of some of the moderators. Before SC2 came out this website was an very close community. There were the base group of users who all knew each other , then there were the new users who over time would either leave the site or become part of the base group. Everyone had their own personality and you could generally know what to expect going into threads created by particular users. Everyone could basically shoot the shit, read some news if they wanted, read some strat section, etc. and almost never miss any thread they deemed interesting.
Since SC2 that feeling of "personality" each user has has diminished alot. It's hard (impossible) to get to know all the new users, and you no longer know what to expect going into the vast majority of threads. Before you could tell by looking at the poster. Incontrol would be arguing with people / trolling / posting some wise starcraft strategy. CharlieMurphy would be trolling even harder. Rekrul would be posting some crazy ass story / touching on some taboo subject. You get the point.
Now its near impossible to distinguish between the good threads and the bad threads without going into them. I think alot of bans are resulting from this. Mods like to read interesting articles and stories just as much as we do, but when they feel they are wasting their time due to the large influx of bad / un-interesting threads their patience wears. Most mods probably want TL back to the old way, and banning lower than good quality users is potentially one way to do this. I feel its a lost cause at this point in time, while starcraft 2 is at the peak of its popularity, but it still needs to be done to keep some semblance of quality posting visible.
Probably true yes. Lot has changed with Starcraft2, but it's still a great site with huge amount of content. Things will change over time, people turn away, do something else.
When i requested for a host change for my stream i went through the thread (the one chill is in charge of) and i just don't know how to feel about it. There are pages full of <5 post users requesting a stream. Don't get me wrong, it's not the fact that they want to start a stream, but that they basicaly register just to post that.
edit: oh and in my eyes mods could purge the shit out of this site. But then again, we have to be nice. It's the hypez...
"Come on guys... Idra isnt god... he gonna qq like every other zerg player because they didnt receive buff..."
User was warned for this post
User was temp banned for this post.
So now the question I am raising here is "Is TL a little too strict on what can or can't be said on the forums?"
The example I provided is someone who in obvious disagreement and he has expressed that by saying "Idra isn't god." Yet, this is ban worthy? I'm wondering why it is so easy to get temp banned on TL.
Well, just a thought. Hopefully I don't get banned for this post.
They probably looked at his post history, and if you just look at his last five (click profile, then the number of posts they've made and you can do this too), they were all shitty one-liners that added no value to the forums. Then he says some shit that is almost guaranteed to start a flame war... the ban was obvious.
So no, not too strict at all. The quality of posting here is still kept at a fairly high level (despite the influx of young, and stupid people due to SC2). Moderation is pretty solid on this site. This is especially true on this last example.
On September 25 2010 02:55 Hot_Bid wrote: What is most frustrating is users stating "I hope I don't get banned for this" when they are simply posting feedback or criticism of our website. We aren't the Ministry of Truth and this isn't 1984. If you're reasonable and polite, nobody is going to ban you even if you completely disagree with how we do things. We've always prided ourselves on TL's ability to be open about criticism, admit when we're wrong, and correct mistaken bans.
What you're describing in the OP isn't a free speech issue. If we banned you for posting this thread, then yes that's a problem. But the guy you quoted is a really bad example because he's ignoring the thread to post his own opinion on Idra. His post just leads to people responding to him and an argument about "QQing" rather than discussing the actual topic. Thus, we feel a temp ban was the right action to take.
While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes.
I'll quote intrigue, because he gave a very good analogy, at least as good as baller's analogies :
On September 19 2010 12:46 intrigue wrote: new posters are like puppies, like yeah they can be really cute and nice but if they aren't house trained they'll still shit all over the floor. now imagine a room full of nerdy puppies excited over the release of a popular pc game's sequel, spewing their wastes and dirtying their paws and spreading it everywhere, just everywhere like on the walls and windows and on your shirt and face. once it starts, there's no cleaning it up. that's why we are pretty strict with our rules - ultimately the only thing you need to do to not get banned is to be able to control your e-bowels.
this analogy is apt for the poster population as a whole, because older dogs are also quite prone to losing control of their various sphincters. but when a dog you really love makes a doo-doo, it's more like "aww you poor doggie you".
meh I'm indifferent about it at the end of the day. Sometimes there is just a lot of trash that gets posted here and the strict moderation helps prevent it, so I'm at least happy for that.
Could the mods be more lenient? Yah I guess so, but the problem is that people will start using it against the mods. They will be looked at as giving special treatment to certain users while others might get a warning/ban for the same "offense."
No user, no matter the post count, history, skill level, is above the commandments here and the mods respect that... so I respect them
The best forum I went to was regulated like a nazi death camp. Topics could only be started by mods; all other topics were created and then mods would move them to a public forum if they felt they were worth discussion. If you didn't contribute in the thread by adding something either: insightful, relevant, or funny your post would be deleted. If it were really bad you'd be banned.
If you went off topic, your post would be deleted and you might be banned. If you typed like an idiot and couldn't form a coherent sentence you'd be banned. If you posted simple 1 or 2 sentence replies like, "I agree." or "lol", your post would be deleted and banned. If you argued with the mods (about something stupid or a post being deleted) you'd be banned. If people found you out to be lying or taking advantage, you'd be banned.
Might I ask what forum this is? It sounds like one that probably doesn't seem like it would have a particularly high member count... or you're blowing things way out of proportion.
Do you know how many people on this forum have made 1 -2 liner sentences before like "Wow, amazing article, will read when I get off work!"? Are those contributory? I don't think so. If this forum were moderated like the forum you mentioned, I'm pretty sure everyone by now would be banned or warned.
If I search up some of the most veteran of users here, and sift through their post history, what are the chances that I'll find a good amount of 1-2 liner replies? Are these the guys that would instantly get banned on the forum that you say is the best forum you've been to, where moderators mod people like Nazis? I don't have anything against 1-2 liner replies that are posted in agreement or enthusiasm for a topic as long as its not constant spam. To ban someone just for saying a couple lines is way overboard, if it isn't a derogatory post.
I always find this POV funny and probably inevitable. I've been around for 7 years and managed to avoid getting banned or even warned the entire time. And I've gotten into countless arguments with and against mods and forum vets. I was an immature teen idiot for several of those years. Now I'm just an immature idiot but still, here I am.
Just think before you post. That's all. Put effort into your posts. Most websites don't really ask that of their users and so it's a shock when TL demands it. But once the shock wears off, you realize it's not a big deal and it's for the better.
Banhammer needs to be strict. TL is supposed to be the upper brow of sc players. If people don't like it, the blizzard forums would be a good place for them.
I'm pretty sure the reason for the strict speech moderation is so that this doesn't just become one of those crappy forums on the internet where there is no quality in the content, just back and forth trolling and old jokes, and nothing meaningful really being discussed.
For meaningless, unmoderated jargon I would go to 4chan's /b/ board, not here.
The best forum I went to was regulated like a nazi death camp. Topics could only be started by mods; all other topics were created and then mods would move them to a public forum if they felt they were worth discussion. If you didn't contribute in the thread by adding something either: insightful, relevant, or funny your post would be deleted. If it were really bad you'd be banned.
If you went off topic, your post would be deleted and you might be banned. If you typed like an idiot and couldn't form a coherent sentence you'd be banned. If you posted simple 1 or 2 sentence replies like, "I agree." or "lol", your post would be deleted and banned. If you argued with the mods (about something stupid or a post being deleted) you'd be banned. If people found you out to be lying or taking advantage, you'd be banned.
Might I ask what forum this is? It sounds like one that probably doesn't seem like it would have a particularly high member count... or you're blowing things way out of proportion.
Do you know how many people on this forum have made 1 -2 liner sentences before like "Wow, amazing article, will read when I get off work!"? Are those contributory? I don't think so. If this forum were moderated like the forum you mentioned, I'm pretty sure everyone by now would be banned or warned.
If I search up some of the most veteran of users here, and sift through their post history, what are the chances that I'll find a good amount of 1-2 liner replies? Are these the guys that would instantly get banned on the forum that you say is the best forum you've been to, where moderators mod people like Nazis? I don't have anything against 1-2 liner replies that are posted in agreement or enthusiasm for a topic as long as its not constant spam. To ban someone just for saying a couple lines is way overboard, if it isn't a derogatory post.
As I specifically stated, I don't expect TL to be ran as that site did. The user base was smaller (but still a solid #) and the topics of discussion were much different, whereas here there is actually very little in terms of "discussion" in most threads. And the ones that are, tend to be very weak in most aspects.
Also, the "wow amazing article" and the like is generally from user produced content that exist on this site. On a site such as this, I encourage those types of responses. I want people to let the staff know they wrote a good article or enjoyed one of Artosis' videos. But at the same time, people going into a balance thread discussion and posting something along the lines of, "I think TvZ is imbalanced." is 100% useless because unless they're a known figure, they're literally contributing nothing of use to the thread.
90% of improving posting can come from 1 simple thing... If posters simply thought this one thing before posting: "If some random person posted what I just did (or am about to), would I find it funny or interesting, or would I skip over it?" I would find it unlikely that most people earnestly would hit reply if they did.
edit: The forum in question was Tucker Max's forum, which has been shut down for like a year at this point.
Too strict in "general" forum, not strict enough in SC parts. SC parts should be purged of any slightly moronic post (moronic =/= ligue level) but general can be flaming, some topics require a thick skin / irony / humor / outrage.
How about just disabling the quote function on comments that are supposed to be borderline "troll" comments? Or how about moderating using words in instead of generic warnings? I find the red marker modding arbitrary and downright offensive at times. I do realize that the mods are volunteers and that creating and maintaining a vibrant community requires some interference, but yeah... I hate that mods can target me whenever I say something they don't like. After all, my English isn't perfect. This isn't even a hypothetical. Most bans/warnings are justified though. Community 'moderating' ftw. Please be less zealous, TL mods.
I hardly ever post on TL but it is by far the best moderated forum I have visited. There will always be a few situations where something is misjudged or possibly a wee bit strict (though not in the example OP posted, imho). There might also be times where some consider it to be too lenient (imbalance whining in LR threads is the best example I can think of off the top of my head). However, on average TL mods do wonderful work and it's very much due to their work I keep coming back to browse this forum several times a day. =)
I agree that tl is strict, thats why its so good imo. Without law or rule a community gets abused and people begin to dislike the forums.
And ps: that was a bad example of 'an uncalled for strict ban' or w/e. Some troll coming in belittling an iconic player who represents tl and who is highlighted by tl as someone to watch. Why would you want to upset that balance?
On September 25 2010 03:46 Half wrote: There are two kinds of mentalities behind forum communities. One is self indulgence, and the other is about building communities. TL.net is the latter.
You shouldn't just ask yourself "Am I flaming". You should ask yourself "Am I contributing"
It seems like the idea of Contributing is unknown to the new players who are joining this site. There is nothing wrong with having an opinion, but express it in a meaningful way instead of spewing trash pundits that derail threads and cause trolling.
this is a very important distinction now that the site is grown so much in such a short time. just because you aren't outright flaming doesn't mean you aren't going to get banned for posting uselessly. it's hard enough to read through 20 pages of sc2 without having to filter out pointless posts.
Even though the post you SEE may not seem like its bannable - there may be prior warnings about the exact same thing in the past. 9 times out of 10 a player has been warned about something before they are banned.
And, to hearken back to another thread, I do think it makes people better posters. Some fold and get permabanned, and some actually increase their posting quality.
Lastly, I've seen far more questionable bans than this one! To start off a thread with a personal attack, and a general attack, seems to be exactly what mods are looking for.
On September 25 2010 04:05 wadadde wrote: How about just disabling the quote function on comments that are supposed to be borderline "troll" comments? Or how about moderating using words in instead of generic warnings? I find the red marker modding arbitrary and downright offensive at times. I do realize that the mods are volunteers and that creating and maintaining a vibrant community requires some interference, but yeah... I hate that mods can target me whenever I say something they don't like. After all, my English isn't perfect. This isn't even a hypothetical. Most bans/warnings are justified though. Community 'moderating' ftw. Please be less zealous, TL mods.
You do realize that this forum is built from the ground up, and that the programmers, who aren't paid, would have to program that function into the forum, right? That's a huge pain in the ass, I'm sure. But, public humiliation is one of the best ways to get people to act differently.
Further, it was requested long ago that people be notified which post a person was banned for. This type of moderating serves a dual purpose. It shames the person, and it lets others know exactly how NOT to post in a topic. If someone was warned/banned for something, and you're thinking about posting something similar, it's best to just click the back button and not post what you were going to say... or make your post more constructive. Either way, it's a very effective tool.
It's not targeting for saying something they didn't "like," it's using specific posts as a reference to make other posters/posts better.
TL.net is the upper brow of SC players in skill and prominence, not in terms of manners. Get a private Starcraft forum of 15-30 regulars consisting of your friends and their familiar partners, and you will see a much cleaner forum. Crime occurs more wantonly in metropolises than villages, and tl.net is not exempt from the misfortunes of size.
In fact, one of the things which drew me in to tl.net was the ability to say anything here and not get into any trouble; for no one listens to or generally cares about what a random newcomer might say.
It's similar to you reading an article about a police report and then getting indignant. Not only were you not at the scene of the crime, you haven't talk to the officers, victims, witnesses, or even read the police report yourself. You have read someone's reaction to the police report.
So we have MegaBUD. The first clue that he's going to likely be a poor poster is the user name. Referencing weed in all caps. No big deal but definitely something to note.
Next thing to do, check his registration date: Joined 9-8-2010 03:04:38 About two and a half weeks ago. So I would say he's stick on a probationary period where I expect him to stay cool and figure out how TL works.
Now, let's take a look at some examples of the typical posting history of this user:
On September 24 2010 04:13 MegaBUD wrote: Let them do it... if it need balancing... blizz will fix it in a month or 2.
On September 19 2010 04:11 MegaBUD wrote: The funny thing is... Terran wont be nerfed that bad... and at the end... it wont make any difference at plat/diamond level.
Dont worry mister Toss... Grrr is back and he gonna make new cheese for you.
And for mister Zerg... Too bad, the korean are extremely good macro player, so Blizz cant buff them.
On September 18 2010 12:25 MegaBUD wrote: They can host custom map with fixed stats... take the old map... fix the units stats and gg...
On September 18 2010 12:21 MegaBUD wrote: So much hate... cant belive you guys qq that much about terrans... this isnt WoW...
They had a full 4 months for the beta and they kept it that way.
On September 16 2010 04:53 MegaBUD wrote: TK a noob in his placement match...
These aren't hand-picked. They are chosen at random. He adds nothing to this forum and you can easily see his posts are not well thought-out.
Finally, now that we know who this post is, let's address the post at hand:
On September 24 2010 10:28 MegaBUD wrote: Come on guys... Idra isnt god... he gonna qq like every other zerg player because they didnt receive buff...
It doesn't address the issue at all, it is unfounded, it derails the thread, and it's bait for argument. So yes, a textbook ban was warranted here. This is how moderators work. So yes, sometimes you will be able to see the full story and catch us making mistakes which we will try to fix immediately. But sometimes, you don't know the whole story.
The point is that if you want a place you can just chat freely without worrying about if you're contributing, this isn't it. Find an IRC channel or open your own blogspot. We expect that a reasonable percentage of your posts are going to be providing content, driving discussion or creating interest. If you're just slamming out garbage constantly, you're not going to stay here.
I love the strictness, sometimes i even think some people get away with too much, the guy in your example contributed NOTHING to the thread except start the whole QQ train again, also its in the commandments this is THEIR house they ban/warn for things THEY see ban/warn worthy.
On September 25 2010 04:18 Chill wrote: You can't backseat moderate TL. Here's why:
It's similar to you reading an article about a police report and then getting indignant. Not only were you not at the scene of the crime, you haven't talk to the officers, victims, witnesses, or even read the police report yourself. You have read someone's reaction to the police report.
That analogy would work assuming we couldn't see what they said when they're banned, but we can. So it's more like watching Rodney King than looking at a police report.
They banned me for posting something stupid. I don't think that's too strict.
They also warned me for posting funny (also stupid) threads that people seemed to really enjoy. Even TLO commented on one and said he thought it was funny. Still, I understand why. They need to keep things clean and sometimes maybe overstep a bit.
It's better to be overzealous than "underzealous?" This is one of the best forums on the net and it's obvious why.
Also, keep in mind that longtime users, well known users and pros can often break the rules without punishment. That's a fair double standard, I think.
Edit: Also, with the influx of TONS of new posters there is SO much clutter that they really have to cut down. Even after being the 'victim' of some of this stuff I can honestly say I think they should be MORE zealous. The SC2 strategy forums are a joke and they should be chain-banning about 50% of the posters there imo.
On September 25 2010 04:20 Achilles wrote: That analogy would work assuming we couldn't see what they said when they're banned, but we can. So it's more like watching Rodney King than looking at a police report.
You can't see the previous accounts, post histories, PMs sent, PM discussion, mod notes, warnings, previous bans. I think I am getting my point across without worrying about the analogy lining up perfectly...
On September 25 2010 04:20 Achilles wrote: That analogy would work assuming we couldn't see what they said when they're banned, but we can. So it's more like watching Rodney King than looking at a police report.
You can't see the previous accounts, post histories, PMs sent, PM discussion, mod notes, warnings, previous bans. I think I am getting my point across without worrying about the analogy lining up perfectly...
So somebody who posts 100 marginally dumb posts should be punished equally as much as somebody who posts 5 really dumb posts.
It will be interesting to see the algorithm you lot use to calculate the seemingly additive stupidity rating of users since you take into account all previous posts and PMs.
Just my 2 cents that I think the ban should take into account the offending post only, but I'm more outspoken than most would fancy I suppose.
On September 25 2010 04:21 SpicyCrab wrote: They banned me for posting something stupid. I don't think that's too strict.
They also warned me for posting funny threads that people seemed to really enjoy. Even TLO commented on one and said he thought it was really funny. Sometimes a mod is in a sour mood.
Also, keep in mind that longtime users, well known users and pros can often break the rules without punishment. That's a fair double standard, I think.
You posted a thread with a picture to make a joke. Three times. It's pretty common knowledge that isn't allowed here.
On September 25 2010 04:20 Achilles wrote: That analogy would work assuming we couldn't see what they said when they're banned, but we can. So it's more like watching Rodney King than looking at a police report.
You can't see the previous accounts, post histories, PMs sent, PM discussion, mod notes, warnings, previous bans. I think I am getting my point across without worrying about the analogy lining up perfectly...
So somebody who posts 100 marginally dumb posts should be punished equally as much as somebody who posts 5 really dumb posts.
It will be interesting to see the algorithm you lot use to calculate the seemingly additive stupidity rating of users since you take into account all previous posts and PMs.
It's subjective; There is no algorithm. It's clear you think you were slighted against for your past ban. Let's move forward or take this to PMs.
On September 25 2010 04:20 Achilles wrote: That analogy would work assuming we couldn't see what they said when they're banned, but we can. So it's more like watching Rodney King than looking at a police report.
You can't see the previous accounts, post histories, PMs sent, PM discussion, mod notes, warnings, previous bans. I think I am getting my point across without worrying about the analogy lining up perfectly...
We can see previous posts though, enough to see how people were recently. Profile ->Post number links to their post history. It was REALLY easy to see why that guy was banned.
And that should be enough, especially for hight count people. Certainly, someone that's been here as long as me, say... you aren't going to go into the early hundreds of my posts to see if I was a shitty poster then and now (I am, but that's not the point : D). If people would take a few seconds to do that on a ban they think was questionable, it would clear up a lot of their concerns, I think.
I had an issue with what I felt was biased towards "positive posting". IE. you can post whatever trash you like as long as it includes a smiley face, an exclamation mark or a positive sentiment, yet negativity is instantly reacted to badly irrespective of whats said.
I was starting to feel like TL was transitioning into a childrens TV show.
:D ! ! !
edit, thinking back I even remember someone being banned for something along the lines of "an attitude that is not conducive to the aims of TL"
Chill, I think you have me mixed up. Unless I have gone crazy; I never posted a picture in any of my threads, let alone three times.
Also, go back and reread my post as I have ninjad ( wasn't trying to ninja I just realized it said something a bit different than Intended.) it immediately after posting to be more clear. I am not bitter at all. I think you guys are doing a good job.
Regarding the complaint in the OP- are you seriously complaining about that thread? The thread linked to a perfectly good interview with Idra. And in response, the first comment, the FIRST comment on the thread is already looking to derail it. And it does for the first couple pages as everyone is responding to that first comment and NOT the actual interview. Yes, TL should be banning those idiots.
On September 25 2010 04:30 SpicyCrab wrote: Chill, I think you have me mixed up. Unless I have gone crazy; I never posted a picture in any of my threads, let alone three times.
Also, go back and reread my post as I have ninjad ( wasn't trying to ninja I just realized it said something a bit different than Intended.) it immediately after posting to be more clear. I am not bitter at all. I think you guys are doing a good job.
I couldn't disagree with the OP more. I'm quite new to TL, but I've found it VERY liberal compared to some other competitive gaming forms. The guy who made that comment added nothing to the thread and was simply trying to start shit. It was perfectly legit for that guy to link us to an interesting article of a top player, you can't allow a form to turn into nothing but a bitch fest.
Any website as big as TL has to be strict in order to keep it's reputation as a decent site, I spend soo much time trying to sort through all the flame wars and bad posts just find the decent ones by people who I've come to realize actually understand both the game and the community well. Imagine how hard it would be if TL didn't ban people?
Dont the 10 commandments say this is Their house not ours?
They can do whatever the hell they want bro. The strict modding makes sure dumbasses dont troll the forum into garbage(like gg.net) and personally i likei t quite a bit
Yes, that lurker joke one was the worst though. And as I said, I think the ban there was totally warranted which is why I never complained and why I am coming out in support of you guys right now.
Once again, I am not complaining at all (to Incontrol), I think you guys are doing a good job. Besides, it's your forum you can do what you want.
In my defense though, I only posted that thread (the lurker joke) because the "SCV supplies" joke became a featured thread so I thought I could get away with it.
i love the strict ban-policy on TL.net. I can`t think of any other forum on the internet that has so little spam and offtopic posts as teamliquid and I want this to stay. So if you don`t have time or the will to make a post that contributes to the topic - let it be. if not - get a warning or ban.
On September 25 2010 04:21 SpicyCrab wrote: They banned me for posting something stupid. I don't think that's too strict.
They also warned me for posting funny (also stupid) threads that people seemed to really enjoy. Even TLO commented on one and said he thought it was funny. Still, I understand why. They need to keep things clean and sometimes maybe overstep a bit.
It's better to be overzealous than "underzealous?" This is one of the best forums on the net and it's obvious why.
Also, keep in mind that longtime users, well known users and pros can often break the rules without punishment. That's a fair double standard, I think.
Edit: Also, with the influx of TONS of new posters there is SO much clutter that they really have to cut down. Even after being the 'victim' of some of this stuff I can honestly say I think they should be MORE zealous. The SC2 strategy forums are a joke and they should be chain-banning about 50% of the posters there imo.
That's a dirty lie.
The mods keep tabs on everybody... old dogs or new pups.
I've seen a lot of old posters get bans for the same stuff new users can be banned for. It just doesn't happen as frequently is all...
If you were to think of the users based upon... icons for example on this forum... you will notice that the quantity of users overall of people with Battlecruisers as their icon is dwarfed substantially by the amount of scv's on this forum. I have this vision that the active TL userbase looks like a pyramid where there really aren't "that many" people with over 8000, 6000, 4000 posts. Most of them are the older posters and have been around the block (with a few trips to ban-town I'd bet).
It should also be mentioned that (unless I'm wrong) Idra has been banned from TL in the past for bad manners. So it's not like th TL mods just defend Idra for the sake of it.
On September 25 2010 04:30 SpicyCrab wrote: Chill, I think you have me mixed up. Unless I have gone crazy; I never posted a picture in any of my threads, let alone three times.
Also, go back and reread my post as I have ninjad ( wasn't trying to ninja I just realized it said something a bit different than Intended.) it immediately after posting to be more clear. I am not bitter at all. I think you guys are doing a good job.
No, but I looked at them. They're all 1-2 line OPs (except the first one which was just random nothingness in the SC2 forums. You reposted it as a blog and it's still open.)
I think a nice rule is to use a text editor when making OPs. If it's not something you'd be worried about erasing, it's probably not so great. The SCV joke was way funnier.
Well, before, I would have disagreed with this post. However, after spending around 30 minutes writing up a thread on adding a unit to zerg to help with ZvT scouting, then having it get closed after two replys, I'm now inclined to agree.
IF TL's strictness is out of whack, I'd say it leans more toward being too permissive. However. as a recent member I am not really worried by anything I've seen. The amount of incredible content here is terrific and isn't obscured by irresponsible posting. If TL were to suddenly loosen up, I would worry about that changing.
On September 25 2010 04:35 arb wrote: Dont the 10 commandments say this is Their house not ours?
They can do whatever the hell they want bro. The strict modding makes sure dumbasses dont troll the forum into garbage(like gg.net) and personally i likei t quite a bit
No, this is their restaurant. Though the main dishes are often times terrible, they still have some awesome side dishes. The portions are too small though. Doesn't really matter though, I tend to eat it like a delicacy anyway. + Show Spoiler +
I think it has a lot to do with TL being a beacon in the gaming community that stands out to be everything the halo x-box community can never be. There are a great number of posts that deserve warnings/temp bans that never get them so I think things are fine. Long live TL.
On September 25 2010 04:41 Psycosquirrel wrote: Well, before, I would have disagreed with this post. However, after spending around 30 minutes writing up a thread on adding a unit to zerg to help with ZvT scouting, then having it get closed after two replys, I'm now inclined to agree.
We don't do balance/unit idea threads in SC2. This is a rule that gets enforced 23432 times a day.
Also, you proposed a zerg catapult called an Alphalisk. o.o
I think Incontrol might have copyrighted that already.
On September 25 2010 04:45 SpicyCrab wrote: Jeez I come out in support of the mods (after getting banned) and now you guys are piling on me like I am coming after you... ;___;
Not piling on! I just wanted to look through and explain it.
On September 25 2010 04:41 Psycosquirrel wrote: Well, before, I would have disagreed with this post. However, after spending around 30 minutes writing up a thread on adding a unit to zerg to help with ZvT scouting, then having it get closed after two replys, I'm now inclined to agree.
Do you think Blizzard would honestly pick up the idea or some meaningful responses would come from it or do you think it was just posting for the sake of posting? Threads like that belong in the blogs.... if anywhere (and my preference would be nowhere).
Any way, as someone who was banned already I would say that getting warnings and bans early on is pretty reasonable. The forum has pretty unique rules that newer users may not be aware of/ used to but most of them are good.
The mods are generally pretty fair. And considering how good this forum is nobody should really be complaining. :/
On September 25 2010 04:50 SpicyCrab wrote: Jibba,
I know, I was just messing.
Any way, as someone who was banned already I would say that getting warnings and bans early on is pretty reasonable. The forum has pretty unique rules that newer users may not be aware of/ used to but most of them are good.
The mods are generally pretty fair. And considering how good this forum is nobody should really be complaining. :/
We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value.
I'm also on the side of TL mods possibly being much too lenient at times, but that's probably a good thing, and bad posters get what they deserve in the end, so it all works out.
The amount of garbage/spam/ads on other sites just astounds me at times, I generally don't even scroll past "user comments" anywhere else but here. We should all be thankful that they do this for free.
They aren't really strict honestly. They only temp ban you if you post something really stupid. Honestly they let a lot of posts slide (some of mine included) as well because otherwise they would go insane I think.
I prefer TL to go nuts with the banhammer. It blows my mind reading some of the posts here. It's like people post for the sake of posting or to troll. Troll posts should be dealt with severely to discourage even more troll posts (ie OP example).
Personally I think the strict moderation on TL is a good thing. It prevents trolls and other unwanted people from slipping by into the forum. I would much rather have a strictly moderated forum where people can have intelligent and thoughtful conversation than a weakly moderated forum where terrible, terrible people run rampant.
On September 25 2010 04:50 SpicyCrab wrote: Jibba,
I know, I was just messing.
Any way, as someone who was banned already I would say that getting warnings and bans early on is pretty reasonable. The forum has pretty unique rules that newer users may not be aware of/ used to but most of them are good.
The mods are generally pretty fair. And considering how good this forum is nobody should really be complaining. :/
We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares.
People don't visit TL because they feel like doing the staff a favor. They visit because they get something out of the experience. It's a mutually beneficial relationship.
On September 25 2010 04:41 PackofHighly wrote: IF TL's strictness is out of whack, I'd say it leans more toward being too permissive.
Seriously. I'd ban or warn a solid 75% of the idiots posting in the thread where the ban in question came from.
So many posts there fall under one or more of these categories:
Flame: "ARE YOU FUCKIN STOPID U TWAT, T IS OP' Nerd rage/hyperbole: "FUK U BLIZZ, PATCH THE FUCKIN GAME, ZERG CANNOT WIN ANY GAMES EVER' and just plain old stupid.
On September 25 2010 04:50 SpicyCrab wrote: Jibba,
I know, I was just messing.
Any way, as someone who was banned already I would say that getting warnings and bans early on is pretty reasonable. The forum has pretty unique rules that newer users may not be aware of/ used to but most of them are good.
The mods are generally pretty fair. And considering how good this forum is nobody should really be complaining. :/
We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares.
People don't visit TL because they feel like doing the staff a favor. They visit because they get something out of the experience. It's a mutually beneficial relationship.
And as such the idea that users somehow owe something to TL is a faulty idea, as was my point.
On September 25 2010 04:50 SpicyCrab wrote: Jibba,
I know, I was just messing.
Any way, as someone who was banned already I would say that getting warnings and bans early on is pretty reasonable. The forum has pretty unique rules that newer users may not be aware of/ used to but most of them are good.
The mods are generally pretty fair. And considering how good this forum is nobody should really be complaining. :/
We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares.
People don't visit TL because they feel like doing the staff a favor. They visit because they get something out of the experience. It's a mutually beneficial relationship.
And as such the idea that users somehow owe something to TL is a faulty idea, as was my point.
I think that TL would be a much better place if everyone who complained about moderation left. It wouldnt hurt to send away everyone who feels that the post in question was a quality post, for good measure. (you read the previous sentence twice.)
nobody likes to sift through these kinds of comments 24/7. I owe the Teamliquid staff quite a bit for sheltering such a wonderful community from the assholes of the internet
On September 25 2010 04:50 SpicyCrab wrote: Jibba,
I know, I was just messing.
Any way, as someone who was banned already I would say that getting warnings and bans early on is pretty reasonable. The forum has pretty unique rules that newer users may not be aware of/ used to but most of them are good.
The mods are generally pretty fair. And considering how good this forum is nobody should really be complaining. :/
We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares.
People don't visit TL because they feel like doing the staff a favor. They visit because they get something out of the experience. It's a mutually beneficial relationship.
And as such the idea that users somehow owe something to TL is a faulty idea, as was my point.
I understand, I was just pointing out that your saying, "you are doing the owner a favor" is not the case either. Also, it's not unnatural for someone to feel like they owe TL something if they feel like they've gained a lot here, but that's a personal sentiment and people shouldn't tell others that they, too, "owe TL".
Edit: Cz, I guess I wasn't entirely clear here. Just so you understand what I was saying ->
I wasn't saying that they owed anybody any thing. I just don't think there's any reason to complain about overzealous moderation on a forum where overzealous moderation is one of the key positive points.
TL has very good moderating, pretty much the best I've encountered. I can think of no occasions off the top of my head where I was warned or someone else was temp banned that I could disagree with.
Seriously, the best thing about this site is that it actually lets people post actual responses, people don't just constantly flame each other.
On September 25 2010 04:50 SpicyCrab wrote: Jibba,
I know, I was just messing.
Any way, as someone who was banned already I would say that getting warnings and bans early on is pretty reasonable. The forum has pretty unique rules that newer users may not be aware of/ used to but most of them are good.
The mods are generally pretty fair. And considering how good this forum is nobody should really be complaining. :/
We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares.
People don't visit TL because they feel like doing the staff a favor. They visit because they get something out of the experience. It's a mutually beneficial relationship.
And as such the idea that users somehow owe something to TL is a faulty idea, as was my point.
I think that TL would be a much better place if everyone who complained about moderation left. It wouldnt hurt to send away everyone who feels that the post in question was a quality post, for good measure. (you read the previous sentence twice.)
nobody likes to sift through these kinds of comments 24/7. I owe the Teamliquid staff quite a bit for sheltering such a wonderful community from the assholes of the internet
This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.
There are have been more temp bans lately to be sure, I wonder if that is because alot of people have come from the general wow forums and brought their attitudes with them. 99% of bans are justified imho.
On September 25 2010 05:04 SpicyCrab wrote: Edit: Cz, I guess I wasn't entirely clear here. Just so you understand what I was saying ->
I wasn't saying that they owed anybody any thing. I just don't think there's any reason to complain about overzealous moderation on a forum where overzealous moderation is one of the key positive points.
:/
Unless you think overzealous moderation is a problem, of course, like the OP.
don't question the gods, for they shall do as they please, and it shall be good
TL Genesis 1:1
I thought it was a good ban; random douchiness gets you banned, especially if it's against our glorious zerg king idra. and it didn't contribute to the thread.
Teamliquid's moderation is much too lenient. And this is coming from someone who has been banned four times.
When I look back on these forums used to be, I can't help but think they were much better 4 years ago than they are today. Part of this evaluation by me is probably due to nostalgia. Yet more is probably due to the fact that because Broodwar was so developed a game -- If someone posted infested terran drop build in the strategy forum, the person who posted it could be called a little bitch and banned -- today, if someone posts an infested terran strategy, because nobody fully understands Starcraft 2, moderators have to be more careful.
Still, I think part of the reason why I dislike the forums more today than I did before is because they're worse. A huge influx of shitty, cocky, one-line posters are now teamliquid.net members.
Administrators and moderators: Get to work. All your warnings should be temp bans, and all your temp bans full bans. The truth is, I'm not the greatest poster myself. Maybe I will get banned. But at least when I'm lurking, I'll be lurking on a forum where I don't want to jump through my computer screen and slap the OP.
"Come on guys... Idra isnt god... he gonna qq like every other zerg player because they didnt receive buff..."
User was warned for this post
User was temp banned for this post.
So now the question I am raising here is "Is TL a little too strict on what can or can't be said on the forums?"
The example I provided is someone who in obvious disagreement and he has expressed that by saying "Idra isn't god." Yet, this is ban worthy? I'm wondering why it is so easy to get temp banned on TL.
Well, just a thought. Hopefully I don't get banned for this post.
This is a perfect example of how one post can completely derail an entire thread.
"Come on guys... Idra isnt god... he gonna qq like every other zerg player because they didnt receive buff..."
User was warned for this post
User was temp banned for this post.
So now the question I am raising here is "Is TL a little too strict on what can or can't be said on the forums?"
The example I provided is someone who in obvious disagreement and he has expressed that by saying "Idra isn't god." Yet, this is ban worthy? I'm wondering why it is so easy to get temp banned on TL.
Well, just a thought. Hopefully I don't get banned for this post.
Please don't go around martyring yourself, we usually ban people outright for comments like these, it's incredibly annoying.
No one is going to ban anyone for constructive criticism..., which should be in the feedback forum btw.
On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:
On September 25 2010 02:55 Hot_Bid wrote: What is most frustrating is users stating "I hope I don't get banned for this" when they are simply posting feedback or criticism of our website. We aren't the Ministry of Truth and this isn't 1984. If you're reasonable and polite, nobody is going to ban you even if you completely disagree with how we do things. We've always prided ourselves on TL's ability to be open about criticism, admit when we're wrong, and correct mistaken bans.
What you're describing in the OP isn't a free speech issue. If we banned you for posting this thread, then yes that's a problem. But the guy you quoted is a really bad example because he's ignoring the thread to post his own opinion on Idra. His post just leads to people responding to him and an argument about "QQing" rather than discussing the actual topic. Thus, we feel a temp ban was the right action to take.
While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes.
No, we certainly don't discuss what other moderators do in the public forums, but internal forum discussions about specific bans are common. It might not happen every day, that a ban is shortened or completely undone, but it happens. No mod is perfect, but I believe with plenty of other mods looking at each other's bans/warnings it works out very well. Bey couldn't have unbanned you even if he wanted to, mods can't unban, only admins can.
On September 25 2010 02:39 chimthegrim wrote: TL a little too strict on speech?
Not really, they seem pretty fair. As long as your post is relevant to the thread, then you won't be punished. The post that guy made was clearly him trying to start a flame war, and had very little to do with the thread.
Everytime a mod gives a player a warning and a ban they do something called dance this dance is a ritual and its said to repel trolls and make sure they will never come back from the unknown origins they came from. i have a feeling i will get a warning :o
On September 25 2010 02:41 TryThis wrote: personally, i think the fact that TL is strict is why i love it so much as a forum. the post your talking about, really didnt benefit the thread whatsoever, in fact it was right on the way to ruining a good thread. as a result he got his bans.
Indeed, TL has some of the best Mods I've seen to date.
Sometimes it does feel like TL can be a little strict, but given their track record on the quality of the forums I can life with that. But I think that the OP's quote was banned because insulting or grieffing a high level player,vet,old member is always a big no no. We want more of these high level players to come and join in discussions but they will not if they get insulted/trolled for no reason
On September 25 2010 02:44 myopia wrote: TL's moderating is the finest on the internet.
edit: I've never been banned cuz I don't make crude posts and I'm not unnecessarily rude to others. Do that and you're fine. Don't, and maybe you get banned, maybe not? Risk it if you want.
On September 25 2010 05:04 SpicyCrab wrote: Edit: Cz, I guess I wasn't entirely clear here. Just so you understand what I was saying ->
I wasn't saying that they owed anybody any thing. I just don't think there's any reason to complain about overzealous moderation on a forum where overzealous moderation is one of the key positive points.
:/
Unless you think overzealous moderation is a problem, of course, like the OP.
Then gtfo. If you don't like the way the site is run, you can go somewhere else. This isn't a democracy, it's stated really clearly in the ten commandments of TL that it is not such a site. So you have two options, abide by the rules and enjoy the way things are run, or gtfo. Why should they change the site for the <10% of people who don't like the way it's run? Btw, those <10% of people, are almost always really shitty posters. Not surprisingly, either. It seems garbage posters would rather the rules accommodate their bad posting, rather than making their posts better.
And you wouldn't get banned if you post constructively. I haven't seen your previous bans, but my guess is that you don't exactly take an even-keel approach to them. You probably come back and flame the person. It's pretty rare that constructive posts, with proper tone get banned. You can have a constructive post, and be a douchebag and get banned. You can have a nice post that is unconstructive and get banned. But constructive and not douchy doesn't get banned often.
"Come on guys... Idra isnt god... he gonna qq like every other zerg player because they didnt receive buff..."
User was warned for this post
User was temp banned for this post.
So now the question I am raising here is "Is TL a little too strict on what can or can't be said on the forums?"
The example I provided is someone who in obvious disagreement and he has expressed that by saying "Idra isn't god." Yet, this is ban worthy? I'm wondering why it is so easy to get temp banned on TL.
Well, just a thought. Hopefully I don't get banned for this post.
Please don't go around martyring yourself, we usually ban people outright for comments like these, it's incredibly annoying.
No one is going to ban anyone for constructive criticism..., which should be in the feedback forum btw.
On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:
On September 25 2010 02:55 Hot_Bid wrote: What is most frustrating is users stating "I hope I don't get banned for this" when they are simply posting feedback or criticism of our website. We aren't the Ministry of Truth and this isn't 1984. If you're reasonable and polite, nobody is going to ban you even if you completely disagree with how we do things. We've always prided ourselves on TL's ability to be open about criticism, admit when we're wrong, and correct mistaken bans.
What you're describing in the OP isn't a free speech issue. If we banned you for posting this thread, then yes that's a problem. But the guy you quoted is a really bad example because he's ignoring the thread to post his own opinion on Idra. His post just leads to people responding to him and an argument about "QQing" rather than discussing the actual topic. Thus, we feel a temp ban was the right action to take.
While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes.
No, we certainly don't discuss what other moderators do in the public forums, but internal forum discussions about specific bans are common. It might not happen every day, that a ban is shortened or completely undone, but it happens. No mod is perfect, but I believe with plenty of other mods looking at each other's bans/warnings it works out very well. Bey couldn't have unbanned you even if he wanted to, mods can't unban, only admins can.
I mistyped that, I meant couldn't. Because I remember the discussion being such. He said I'd have to talk to Naz or Meat at that time.
On September 25 2010 05:04 SpicyCrab wrote: Edit: Cz, I guess I wasn't entirely clear here. Just so you understand what I was saying ->
I wasn't saying that they owed anybody any thing. I just don't think there's any reason to complain about overzealous moderation on a forum where overzealous moderation is one of the key positive points.
:/
Unless you think overzealous moderation is a problem, of course, like the OP.
Then gtfo. If you don't like the way the site is run, you can go somewhere else. This isn't a democracy, it's stated really clearly in the ten commandments of TL that it is not such a site. So you have two options, abide by the rules and enjoy the way things are run, or gtfo. Why should they change the site for the <10% of people who don't like the way it's run? Btw, those <10% of people, are almost always really shitty posters.
Or start a discussion to see if perhaps it is a general issue that others feel is true too. The OP here has started a civil discussion which continued for 10 pages until your post.
I don't understand why people are complaining. The mods and admins on TL.net are doing a great job and i feel that they could even be a little bit stricter, when it comes to one word replays, trolling or shitty posting (especially on the SC2 forums).
Tl.net is the only public forum i know that actually cares about quality before quantity. We don't need another battle.net forum.
On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote: While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes.
I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased.
Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell.
On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.
His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_-
On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote: We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value.
Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then.
On September 25 2010 05:42 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:
On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:
On September 25 2010 05:04 SpicyCrab wrote: Edit: Cz, I guess I wasn't entirely clear here. Just so you understand what I was saying ->
I wasn't saying that they owed anybody any thing. I just don't think there's any reason to complain about overzealous moderation on a forum where overzealous moderation is one of the key positive points.
:/
Unless you think overzealous moderation is a problem, of course, like the OP.
Then gtfo. If you don't like the way the site is run, you can go somewhere else. This isn't a democracy, it's stated really clearly in the ten commandments of TL that it is not such a site. So you have two options, abide by the rules and enjoy the way things are run, or gtfo. Why should they change the site for the <10% of people who don't like the way it's run? Btw, those <10% of people, are almost always really shitty posters.
Or start a discussion to see if perhaps it is a general issue that others feel is true too. The OP here has started a civil discussion which continued for 10 pages until your post.
Do you have any idea how many times this discussion has come up at this site over the last.... five years or so??? I mean, if you don't think the ban that spurred this entire, pointless thread was entirely warranted, I don't even know what to say.
Do you enjoy reading youtube comments too?? Because I don't. And that's what shit like that is like.
I wish a lot more people were banned from this site to be honest. I think the mods go very easy on people. If anyone's ever been on a uStream channel I moderate, you understand how I like to keep the channel clean.
The mods do a great job overall though. Never had an issue with any of them. They don't get the credit they deserve.
OP should add a poll. I think most people that love TL love it because of the moderation, not in spite of it.
The example you posted is a gray area. If the poster had a history of positive contribution to the community/site, if it hadn't been the first post, if he had framed his thoughts more coherently, and if the issue wasn't a sore spot for the community (zerg balance), he probably wouldn't have gotten banned. However...
On September 25 2010 05:42 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:
On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:
On September 25 2010 05:04 SpicyCrab wrote: Edit: Cz, I guess I wasn't entirely clear here. Just so you understand what I was saying ->
I wasn't saying that they owed anybody any thing. I just don't think there's any reason to complain about overzealous moderation on a forum where overzealous moderation is one of the key positive points.
:/
Unless you think overzealous moderation is a problem, of course, like the OP.
Then gtfo. If you don't like the way the site is run, you can go somewhere else. This isn't a democracy, it's stated really clearly in the ten commandments of TL that it is not such a site. So you have two options, abide by the rules and enjoy the way things are run, or gtfo. Why should they change the site for the <10% of people who don't like the way it's run? Btw, those <10% of people, are almost always really shitty posters.
Or start a discussion to see if perhaps it is a general issue that others feel is true too. The OP here has started a civil discussion which continued for 10 pages until your post.
I have to stop posting then editing so much. I do it too often, and people miss like half my message. But, that's not really uncivil, what I said. It's just matter of fact. Sometimes facts aren't nice, but that's how it is here. If people don't like it, they're free to leave. Having a discussion about it is fine, but people whining about it being too strict, and it needs to be less strict, and "unless it's all spam, there's no need for mods." That's how you get to be like blizz's BW forums were, or how gosugamers is, or most other sites on the internet.
Someone here put it perfectly before when addressing the recent spikes in bans. A couple years ago, this was a very close-knit community. Pretty much everyone knew everyone here. Now, there are so many users, it's losing that feel, but that's why this site has been so loved for so long. So the bannishments are an attempt to keep that same aura around the site, while not losing public appeal. It's a fine line to tow, though.
The guy didn't get banned for saying IdrA isn't God, he got banned because he posted without contributing at all to the discussion and did so with negativity. Its the kind of thing that starts fights and derails topics. If you don't have something to contribute, then you have to at least be nice or else you risk starting fights and derailing topics.
Didn't read the whole thread, but this is exactly why I like TL. The quality control is very omnipresent. I can really feel like trolling is a no-no here, unlike most forums nowadays.
I like it. Probably should do less banning for profanity/insults/"rudeness", but I like their intolerance of trolling/stupidity/meaningless content posts.
After hanging around on the internet for about 11 years now, being part of many a community, I can safely say that TL.net is the best moderated community on the internet in terms of what is allowed and what is not, while keeping the discussions interesting and funny at the same time.
Sure, occasionally they make a dumb ban, but it's all part of the greater effort to keep TL a relatively idiot-free place. I have yet to get banned (fairly or unfairly), so if that ever happens, maybe I will see it differently, but for now, my stance is that the road to forum perfection is marred with the occasional whoopsie, and I'm ok with that.
Theres a reason manifesto has a hammer and sickle > but I remember what he said once and it made sense.
The problem, Stimy, is that you think this should be a democracy. Well, democracy barely works in the real world, and it sure as hell doesn't work on a forum with 19000 members. If you want to try it on a forum be my guest, it just wont be this one.
If they werent strict the forum would become very unwelcoming. The community is something to be proud of here on TL, and it wouldnt be possible without strict moderation.
However mods are still are still humans governed by emotions and personal opinions and do hasty bans.
If you have nothing useful to say, and haven't thought out your post, the absolute least you can do is not be offensive, or over-presumptuous about it, especially in the Strategy forum. I mean, the post is still a waste of space, but at least it'll probably be ignored and nobody will be offended.
I agree. My bookmark to get to TL is that thread :D Always worth reading, some of the bans are hilarious. I just wish there was an easier to find the post that got them ban sometimes because they don't always show them; especially went the mod goes like : "How in the world did you think that was acceptable?". Brings out the curiosity in me :D
I think they moderation is pretty arbitrary and strange. I criticized Artosis for whining about imbalance in one thread and got a warning for it, like wtf? It feels like you can't criticize certain people (Idra, Artosis, tasteless etc).
TL's high standard has impacted my behavior on other sites I frequent in a positive manner.
I see industry professionals behaving in a manner that would get them banned within five minutes here on the other boards, and just sort of scratch my head.
"Thinking before you speak" is a great skill to have, and TL promotes that.
I just ate a temp ban on GameFAQs for telling some moron what a moron he was because he did nothing but spam endless topics about how overpowered terran was.
And don't get me wrong, it wasn't a one word post either. It was a well constructed post taking into account everything he said and going to some efforts to provide rationale as to why he was wrong.
I wasn't kind about it, of course, but the dude deserved worse than I gave him.
On September 25 2010 06:16 archaik wrote: I think they moderation is pretty arbitrary and strange. I criticized Artosis for whining about imbalance in one thread and got a warning for it, like wtf? It feels like you can't criticize certain people (Idra, Artosis, tasteless etc).
That's true to some extent. See TLC § 6 (Team Liquid Commandments, Paragraph Six)
On September 25 2010 06:15 pat965 wrote: If you have nothing useful to say, and haven't thought out your post, the absolute least you can do is not be offensive, or over-presumptuous about it, especially in the Strategy forum. I mean, the post is still a waste of space, but at least it'll probably be ignored and nobody will be offended.
On September 17 2010 19:49 archaik wrote: Artosis: whine whine bitch bitch. What a dork he is. Tasteless needs a new co-commentator.
On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote: While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes.
I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased.
Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell.
On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.
His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_-
On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote: We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value.
Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then.
There are no shares because total ownership is in one person's hands or is in the hands of two or more people with an informal agreement. The bottom line, however, is that TL can both make money and has sell value. You don't get a check because the owner isn't willing to pay. It's the same thing with any website: pageviews and active membership create value that either is monetized or can be monetized through advertisement, direct sales, or so on. As a result the viewers add value to the site through their simple viewing of it (pageviews are a large factor in advertising rates) and through adding to the community which in turn attracts more.
On September 25 2010 06:20 IamTheWhiteGuy wrote: TL is nothing.
I just ate a temp ban on GameFAQs for telling some moron what a moron he was because he did nothing but spam endless topics about how overpowered terran was.
And don't get me wrong, it wasn't a one word post either. It was a well constructed post taking into account everything he said and going to some efforts to provide rationale as to why he was wrong.
I wasn't kind about it, of course, but the dude deserved worse than I gave him.
GameFAQs is different in that it is the trolls that are the mods. There's no point posting on that board honestly. Moderators go out of their way to make troll topics but if you call them out on it you get your post deleted or just banned.
Please for the love of god never compare that forum to TL again.
And I agree with the person who said the moderation here helps your posting in other forums. I look at some other forums and shake my head in despair after 1 thread pretty much everytime.
"Come on guys... Idra isnt god... he gonna qq like every other zerg player because they didnt receive buff..."
User was warned for this post
User was temp banned for this post.
So now the question I am raising here is "Is TL a little too strict on what can or can't be said on the forums?"
The example I provided is someone who in obvious disagreement and he has expressed that by saying "Idra isn't god." Yet, this is ban worthy? I'm wondering why it is so easy to get temp banned on TL.
Well, just a thought. Hopefully I don't get banned for this post.
Welcome to Team Liquid. If you haven't read the ten commandments then you probably ought to read again.
Remember one thing: this is their house rightfully so. If anything, I don't think they're strict enough. :/
On September 25 2010 06:15 pat965 wrote: If you have nothing useful to say, and haven't thought out your post, the absolute least you can do is not be offensive, or over-presumptuous about it, especially in the Strategy forum. I mean, the post is still a waste of space, but at least it'll probably be ignored and nobody will be offended.
On September 17 2010 19:49 archaik wrote: Artosis: whine whine bitch bitch. What a dork he is. Tasteless needs a new co-commentator.
User was warned for this post
You be the judge.
See posts like this make me question the maturity/age of some of the TL posters... how can anyone be shocked at all that they got warned for that?
Someone can say "I think artosis would be a more enjoyable commentator if he didn't complain all the time. Really hard to listen to" as opposed to what you said which has 0 value and is just annoying.
On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote: While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes.
I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased.
Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell.
On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.
His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_-
On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote: We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value.
Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then.
There are no shares because total ownership is in one person's hands or is in the hands of two or more people with an informal agreement. The bottom line, however, is that TL can both make money and has sell value. You don't get a check because the owner isn't willing to pay. It's the same thing with any website: pageviews and active membership create value that either is monetized or can be monetized through advertisement, direct sales, or so on. As a result the viewers add value to the site through their simple viewing of it (pageviews are a large factor in advertising rates) and through adding to the community which in turn attracts more.
Except that TL is mostly ad free (minus the google ones at the top). It's not exactly cheap to pay for bandwidth for a site. It has the potential to make money, but probably does not make money. And if it does, it makes very little. TL, according to the owners, is mostly about the love, though it'd be nice to make money on it... Naz or Meat posted all about this when the site's look was changed.
Ha, you're like the people from that SP episode with that line of thought. "I want your internet money."
On September 25 2010 06:29 Mindcrime wrote: On the whole, I think the mods do fine. If anything, they could be a little more strict. I'm looking at you, sc2 forums.
Over half of the closed threads come from that forum.
On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote: While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes.
I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased.
Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell.
On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.
His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_-
On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote: We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value.
Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then.
There are no shares because total ownership is in one person's hands or is in the hands of two or more people with an informal agreement. The bottom line, however, is that TL can both make money and has sell value. You don't get a check because the owner isn't willing to pay. It's the same thing with any website: pageviews and active membership create value that either is monetized or can be monetized through advertisement, direct sales, or so on. As a result the viewers add value to the site through their simple viewing of it (pageviews are a large factor in advertising rates) and through adding to the community which in turn attracts more.
This would be true if all viewers added to the community. Unfortunately many detract from it. These are the ones that are successfully turned away by strict moderation. I think more people are attracted to the site by the fact that the forums are kept clear of flaming and arguing and trolling than anything else. I know for myself that I wouldn't bother reading any pages on this site if I had to wade through the sort of posts that get people banned/warned around here. So lax moderation could very well lead to fewer viewers.
On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote: While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes.
I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased.
Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell.
On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.
His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_-
On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote: We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value.
Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then.
There are no shares because total ownership is in one person's hands or is in the hands of two or more people with an informal agreement. The bottom line, however, is that TL can both make money and has sell value. You don't get a check because the owner isn't willing to pay. It's the same thing with any website: pageviews and active membership create value that either is monetized or can be monetized through advertisement, direct sales, or so on. As a result the viewers add value to the site through their simple viewing of it (pageviews are a large factor in advertising rates) and through adding to the community which in turn attracts more.
Except that TL is mostly ad free (minus the google ones at the top). It's not exactly cheap to pay for bandwidth for a site. It has the potential to make money, but probably does not make money. And if it does, it makes very little. TL, according to the owners, is mostly about the love, though it'd be nice to make money on it... Naz or Meat posted all about this when the site's look was changed.
Ha, you're like the people from that SP episode with that line of thought. "I want your internet money."
If it never makes any profit in any way, then you are correct. Keep in mind that TL is (or was) one of the main feeders of LP, which does make a lot of money (Nazgul has made made $200-300+ from me via just a small percentage of my FTP rakeback alone, and that's just one user from LP).
On September 25 2010 06:32 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:
On September 25 2010 06:24 cz wrote:
On September 25 2010 05:48 Manifesto7 wrote:
On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote: While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes.
I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased.
Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell.
On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.
His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_-
On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote: We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value.
Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then.
There are no shares because total ownership is in one person's hands or is in the hands of two or more people with an informal agreement. The bottom line, however, is that TL can both make money and has sell value. You don't get a check because the owner isn't willing to pay. It's the same thing with any website: pageviews and active membership create value that either is monetized or can be monetized through advertisement, direct sales, or so on. As a result the viewers add value to the site through their simple viewing of it (pageviews are a large factor in advertising rates) and through adding to the community which in turn attracts more.
Except that TL is mostly ad free (minus the google ones at the top). It's not exactly cheap to pay for bandwidth for a site. It has the potential to make money, but probably does not make money. And if it does, it makes very little. TL, according to the owners, is mostly about the love, though it'd be nice to make money on it... Naz or Meat posted all about this when the site's look was changed.
Ha, you're like the people from that SP episode with that line of thought. "I want your internet money."
If it never makes any profit in any way, then you are correct. Keep in mind that TL is (or was) one of the main feeders of LP, which does make a lot of money (Nazgul has made made $200-300+ from me via just a small percentage of my FTP rakeback alone, and that's just one user from LP).
Right, but LP is a separate entity, and I think they pay their "contributors" there anyway (contributors being writers and mods).
On September 25 2010 06:14 matjlav wrote: I love TL's moderating staff. This is a private website, and they want to keep it from being shitty. Awesome.
I would be interested to hear statistics on how many accounts have been created vs. how many accounts have been banned.
I'd love to see those stats, especially if someone could figure it out year-by-year. I know the banhammer has been swung a lot recently, but 99% of those were perfectly warranted. Aesop gave a great explanation on the first page: + Show Spoiler +
On September 25 2010 02:50 Aesop wrote: Note: I did not issue the ban cited and didn't have anything to do with it. This is just my take on moderation that isn't representative for all Mods.
The example I provided is someone who in obvious disagreement and he has expressed that by saying "Idra isn't god." Yet, this is ban worthy? I'm wondering why it is so easy to get temp banned on TL.
Now, firstly he posted in a thread that was about Idra being interviewed about the patch. So there is nothing to 'disagree' about. It's not remotely related to the topic of the thread. Secondly, he used a sweeping generalization, "every other zerg player". We don't like those racial stereotypes. We ban people for dissing Terran for being OP, we ban people for dissing Zerg about complaining. Thirdly, he uses bad spelling, interpunctuation, and stereotypical low-effort internet lingo. That, too, is despicable.
So in short, what we don't like is derailing a thread by posting stuff that doesn't belong there, and we give even worse marks for putting now effort into the posting. The opinion isn't important. If you disagree with anything that Idra said content-wise, you are welcome to express it, if you feel like his opinion is generally being heeded too much, you might find a way to formulate it. But not like this.
"Come on guys... Idra isnt god... he gonna qq like every other zerg player because they didnt receive buff..."
User was warned for this post
User was temp banned for this post.
So now the question I am raising here is "Is TL a little too strict on what can or can't be said on the forums?"
The example I provided is someone who in obvious disagreement and he has expressed that by saying "Idra isn't god." Yet, this is ban worthy? I'm wondering why it is so easy to get temp banned on TL.
Well, just a thought. Hopefully I don't get banned for this post.
That guy deserved it. This isn't the blizzard forums.
hilarious how the OP got the first part of the phrase "Idra isn't god." to base his arguments, when it is obviously that it was the second part of the message that deserved him the ban.
On September 25 2010 06:15 pat965 wrote: If you have nothing useful to say, and haven't thought out your post, the absolute least you can do is not be offensive, or over-presumptuous about it, especially in the Strategy forum. I mean, the post is still a waste of space, but at least it'll probably be ignored and nobody will be offended.
On September 17 2010 19:49 archaik wrote: Artosis: whine whine bitch bitch. What a dork he is. Tasteless needs a new co-commentator.
User was warned for this post
You be the judge.
Lmao that clearly awards a warning imo even disregarding the ridiculous amounts of contribution artosis has made for this community. He should be temp banned for even bringing that up in this thread.
On September 25 2010 06:15 pat965 wrote: If you have nothing useful to say, and haven't thought out your post, the absolute least you can do is not be offensive, or over-presumptuous about it, especially in the Strategy forum. I mean, the post is still a waste of space, but at least it'll probably be ignored and nobody will be offended.
On September 17 2010 19:49 archaik wrote: Artosis: whine whine bitch bitch. What a dork he is. Tasteless needs a new co-commentator.
User was warned for this post
You be the judge.
hahahah, my god. I guess if you lie to yourself enough, you'll really believe you're the victim??
On September 25 2010 06:28 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Someone can say "I think artosis would be a more enjoyable commentator if he didn't complain all the time. Really hard to listen to" as opposed to what you said which has 0 value and is just annoying.
This is a way of saying the exact same thing and not get banned. You could have 1 or 100,000 posts and say this, and you would not get banned.
On September 25 2010 06:32 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:
On September 25 2010 06:24 cz wrote:
On September 25 2010 05:48 Manifesto7 wrote:
On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote: While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes.
I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased.
Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell.
On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.
His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_-
On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote: We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value.
Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then.
There are no shares because total ownership is in one person's hands or is in the hands of two or more people with an informal agreement. The bottom line, however, is that TL can both make money and has sell value. You don't get a check because the owner isn't willing to pay. It's the same thing with any website: pageviews and active membership create value that either is monetized or can be monetized through advertisement, direct sales, or so on. As a result the viewers add value to the site through their simple viewing of it (pageviews are a large factor in advertising rates) and through adding to the community which in turn attracts more.
Except that TL is mostly ad free (minus the google ones at the top). It's not exactly cheap to pay for bandwidth for a site. It has the potential to make money, but probably does not make money. And if it does, it makes very little. TL, according to the owners, is mostly about the love, though it'd be nice to make money on it... Naz or Meat posted all about this when the site's look was changed.
Ha, you're like the people from that SP episode with that line of thought. "I want your internet money."
If it never makes any profit in any way, then you are correct. Keep in mind that TL is (or was) one of the main feeders of LP, which does make a lot of money (Nazgul has made made $200-300+ from me via just a small percentage of my FTP rakeback alone, and that's just one user from LP).
Right, but LP is a separate entity, and I think they pay their "contributors" there anyway (contributors being writers and mods).
But TL generates traffic for LP (or did so significantly), and thus some of the LP profits has to be considered to be partially as belonging to TL.
It was a bad post in that example. The OP was discussing Idras views on balance, and how zerg seem lacking, and he justs posts "Idra isnt god". He might not be, but he is a good player, and if you are going to disagree, you should post some more evidence.
I love how the mods behave here. I'm sick of the idea that "everyone's opinion is valid" when it includes people who just say things like the person in the quote you cited. If your response to a logical argument is nonsense like that then I think you definitely deserve to be shut up.
Anyway what's there really to discuss here? It's their site and it's upon them to decide where and when to draw the line. If the mods did such a horrible job then most of us wouldn't even be here in the first place. You can't deem a ban unjust by just looking at a post either, as there may be other reasons behind banning in a lot of cases.
Besides, this far no one has even managed to present a case where someone was banned and it wasn't more or less his own fault.
I'm not sure why 'free speech' was brought up like 5 times since it's completely irrelevant. Fortunately it wasn't being brought up in the capacity of "tl limits our free speech" but still lol. If I go through your post history and remove everything you've ever said it has nothing to do with laws to protect citizens from their government.
On September 25 2010 06:36 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:
On September 25 2010 06:35 cz wrote:
On September 25 2010 06:32 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:
On September 25 2010 06:24 cz wrote:
On September 25 2010 05:48 Manifesto7 wrote:
On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote: While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes.
I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased.
Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell.
On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.
His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_-
On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote: We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value.
Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then.
There are no shares because total ownership is in one person's hands or is in the hands of two or more people with an informal agreement. The bottom line, however, is that TL can both make money and has sell value. You don't get a check because the owner isn't willing to pay. It's the same thing with any website: pageviews and active membership create value that either is monetized or can be monetized through advertisement, direct sales, or so on. As a result the viewers add value to the site through their simple viewing of it (pageviews are a large factor in advertising rates) and through adding to the community which in turn attracts more.
Except that TL is mostly ad free (minus the google ones at the top). It's not exactly cheap to pay for bandwidth for a site. It has the potential to make money, but probably does not make money. And if it does, it makes very little. TL, according to the owners, is mostly about the love, though it'd be nice to make money on it... Naz or Meat posted all about this when the site's look was changed.
Ha, you're like the people from that SP episode with that line of thought. "I want your internet money."
If it never makes any profit in any way, then you are correct. Keep in mind that TL is (or was) one of the main feeders of LP, which does make a lot of money (Nazgul has made made $200-300+ from me via just a small percentage of my FTP rakeback alone, and that's just one user from LP).
Right, but LP is a separate entity, and I think they pay their "contributors" there anyway (contributors being writers and mods).
But TL generates traffic for LP (or did so significantly), and thus some of the LP profits has to be considered to be partially as belonging to TL.
I guess I missed the point about what this has to do with anything being discussed?? Some obscure rant about how this site is nothing without the users?
Here's a little fact: Most of the users like the moderation here. It's what has kept the community viable for so long. People like you who whine about moderation apparently aren't bothered by it enough to go elsewhere. Membership is at all time high. Previously banned users come back time and time again.
All really compelling reasons to suddenly eschew strict moderation that keeps idiots out of a free forum.
The fact that I have never been banned and never even got a warning after 5k+ posts on TL shows that this site is definitely not too strict. There is many times when I think someone should be banned, or should be banned for longer, but they are not. The moderation is a little more lax than I would want it to be.
I think they are to strict in certain circumstances but really it keep its clean mostly. I think if they chilled out and turned it down a notch then it would be better.
On September 25 2010 06:36 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:
On September 25 2010 06:35 cz wrote:
On September 25 2010 06:32 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:
On September 25 2010 06:24 cz wrote:
On September 25 2010 05:48 Manifesto7 wrote:
On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote: While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes.
I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased.
Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell.
On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.
His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_-
On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote: We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value.
Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then.
There are no shares because total ownership is in one person's hands or is in the hands of two or more people with an informal agreement. The bottom line, however, is that TL can both make money and has sell value. You don't get a check because the owner isn't willing to pay. It's the same thing with any website: pageviews and active membership create value that either is monetized or can be monetized through advertisement, direct sales, or so on. As a result the viewers add value to the site through their simple viewing of it (pageviews are a large factor in advertising rates) and through adding to the community which in turn attracts more.
Except that TL is mostly ad free (minus the google ones at the top). It's not exactly cheap to pay for bandwidth for a site. It has the potential to make money, but probably does not make money. And if it does, it makes very little. TL, according to the owners, is mostly about the love, though it'd be nice to make money on it... Naz or Meat posted all about this when the site's look was changed.
Ha, you're like the people from that SP episode with that line of thought. "I want your internet money."
If it never makes any profit in any way, then you are correct. Keep in mind that TL is (or was) one of the main feeders of LP, which does make a lot of money (Nazgul has made made $200-300+ from me via just a small percentage of my FTP rakeback alone, and that's just one user from LP).
Right, but LP is a separate entity, and I think they pay their "contributors" there anyway (contributors being writers and mods).
But TL generates traffic for LP (or did so significantly), and thus some of the LP profits has to be considered to be partially as belonging to TL.
I guess you have a point, but there are a lot of variables to account for there.
On September 25 2010 02:50 Mephit wrote: I've lurked/posted in a lot of forums, and TL has the best moderators by far. They would rather have quality posting instead quantitative garbage. Even with an influx of new players they've handled it.
Thanks Mods.
This really deserves a +1. I lurked here for a good 6 months before even making my account and only did so because of the quality usually here. I think I've seen a bit of decline, but even so it's far better here than almost every gaming forum I have known.
You guys should be happy they give more warnings and temp bans. They used to just perm ban people all the time. If you aren't going to add value to the website or contribute then perhaps you shouldn't post it. Think before you post.
The frequent warnings and temp bans given to poor grammar, low manner users on this forum are a big part of what I love about it. This has already been said by everyone over the course of the past 12 pages in the thread, but if you take a minute to read over your post and cull those unwarranted flames, you'll have no problem posting here. I love the moderation on this site, and I love the fact that they leave the posts up in order to make an example out of those who don't follow the commandments.
Better to be too strict and temp ban a few people harshly than to start lowering standards and before you know it: POOF! TL just became as crappy as every other forum on the net.
EDIT: I've been temp banned before and I learned my lesson. I understand now why the moderators just can't let standards slip, this community is too good to be ruined by trash posts.
We are not a "for profit" enterprise. We are not funded by any governments. This means we run the site the way we see fit. We are not obligated to observe anyone's notions of "free speech" or even "fairness." We try of course, and that's why we're consistently considered one of the best gaming sites on the web, and you are always free to give us suggestions
I don't think I'd spend nearly as much time at Teamliquid if the mods were any more lenient. It often times feels like primary school, and if there weren't people punishing the jerks for putting gum in other people's hair, then it'd be a damn useless place to want to be.
I know there's another thread thanking the mods, and I think that is the best thread I've read in awhile. After all, common sense is pretty rare these days:
I'm relatively new on TL (been reading on and off for a year or so) and rarely have I been surprised by a warning or a ban. Personal attacks are frowned upon, race faggotry ("all X are Y" e.g. "Zergs are whiners" or "Terrans are cheap") gets you warned, random trolling gets you warned/banned. Makes sense if the goal is to promote quality posting instead of getting more pageviews. Doesn't feel strict. If you can defend a strategy or an opinion without resorting to personal attacks then you're fine.
TL banning standards are really one off the finest in the whole internet. In my opinion it could even be a little more restrictive. I hat all this "and good talent toi have" "terran is a race for people with no selfrespect" etc. jokes in every single SC2 thread should lead in more cases to a warning. It was funny for some weeks but no it just get repeatet over and over again and thats just anoying.
TL is a little too strict, I was having an excellent discussion with fellow members about patching nukes in SC2 and they helped me realize that they are fine the way they are, even though I still think they need a little something (definitely graphic update), but I was just about to post another suggestion and I came across a page that said I do not have enough rights, I then searched for my thread and learned it was closed. Oh well, just wanted to voice that they are a little strict.
On September 25 2010 07:21 willeesmalls wrote: I was banned for saying I hated morrow's playstyle and hoped he lost every tourney in the future.
Just out of curiosity, I went and checked theposts that you were banned for.
On August 22 2010 23:20 willeesmalls wrote: I really hate Idra, but morrow tops idra here. Blatant and retarded abuse.
Seriously zvt in it's current state is a farce. Even as a random player, I have some choice words on this subject, but I'm not ready to take a ban.
On August 22 2010 23:35 willeesmalls wrote: Morrow's play is ass ugly.
[...]
I hope to hell he gets smashed in every tourney here on out.
(Talk about "inflammatory remarks"...)
On September 25 2010 07:30 KentHenry wrote: TL is a little too strict, I was having an excellent discussion with fellow members about patching nukes in SC2 and they helped me realize that they are fine the way they are, even though I still think they need a little something (definitely graphic update), but I was just about to post another suggestion and I came across a page that said I do not have enough rights, I then searched for my thread and learned it was closed. Oh well, just wanted to voice that they are a little strict.
I closed that thread. If you would like to discuss why, let's do it in the proper topic!
On September 25 2010 06:36 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:
On September 25 2010 06:35 cz wrote:
On September 25 2010 06:32 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:
On September 25 2010 06:24 cz wrote:
On September 25 2010 05:48 Manifesto7 wrote:
On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote: While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes.
I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased.
Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell.
On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.
His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_-
On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote: We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value.
Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then.
There are no shares because total ownership is in one person's hands or is in the hands of two or more people with an informal agreement. The bottom line, however, is that TL can both make money and has sell value. You don't get a check because the owner isn't willing to pay. It's the same thing with any website: pageviews and active membership create value that either is monetized or can be monetized through advertisement, direct sales, or so on. As a result the viewers add value to the site through their simple viewing of it (pageviews are a large factor in advertising rates) and through adding to the community which in turn attracts more.
Except that TL is mostly ad free (minus the google ones at the top). It's not exactly cheap to pay for bandwidth for a site. It has the potential to make money, but probably does not make money. And if it does, it makes very little. TL, according to the owners, is mostly about the love, though it'd be nice to make money on it... Naz or Meat posted all about this when the site's look was changed.
Ha, you're like the people from that SP episode with that line of thought. "I want your internet money."
If it never makes any profit in any way, then you are correct. Keep in mind that TL is (or was) one of the main feeders of LP, which does make a lot of money (Nazgul has made made $200-300+ from me via just a small percentage of my FTP rakeback alone, and that's just one user from LP).
Right, but LP is a separate entity, and I think they pay their "contributors" there anyway (contributors being writers and mods).
But TL generates traffic for LP (or did so significantly), and thus some of the LP profits has to be considered to be partially as belonging to TL.
I guess I missed the point about what this has to do with anything being discussed?? Some obscure rant about how this site is nothing without the users?
Here's a little fact: Most of the users like the moderation here. It's what has kept the community viable for so long. People like you who whine about moderation apparently aren't bothered by it enough to go elsewhere. Membership is at all time high. Previously banned users come back time and time again.
All really compelling reasons to suddenly eschew strict moderation that keeps idiots out of a free forum.
You did miss the point entirely. Next time stop there before putting words in my mouth.
The state of the starcraft 2/strategy forum should be perfect evidence that we are not too strict on free speech ~_~.
I had dinner with one of the mod/admins of pgr21 at blizzcon last year (basically the korean equiv of TL). - he was shocked that we allow users to post immediately after registering. - They have a 14 day weight period to post and 1 month to make threads (need to check these numbers with wax). - If you post is less than a certain number of lines, immediately banned - It's not a perfect forum by any means and is FAR more elitist than TL, but it works for them.
I don't think we have a perfect system right now and it needs to change based on the huge number of new users. I don't think its broken/unfair though.
On September 25 2010 06:36 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:
On September 25 2010 06:35 cz wrote:
On September 25 2010 06:32 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:
On September 25 2010 06:24 cz wrote:
On September 25 2010 05:48 Manifesto7 wrote:
On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote: While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes.
I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased.
Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell.
On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.
His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_-
On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote: We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value.
Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then.
There are no shares because total ownership is in one person's hands or is in the hands of two or more people with an informal agreement. The bottom line, however, is that TL can both make money and has sell value. You don't get a check because the owner isn't willing to pay. It's the same thing with any website: pageviews and active membership create value that either is monetized or can be monetized through advertisement, direct sales, or so on. As a result the viewers add value to the site through their simple viewing of it (pageviews are a large factor in advertising rates) and through adding to the community which in turn attracts more.
Except that TL is mostly ad free (minus the google ones at the top). It's not exactly cheap to pay for bandwidth for a site. It has the potential to make money, but probably does not make money. And if it does, it makes very little. TL, according to the owners, is mostly about the love, though it'd be nice to make money on it... Naz or Meat posted all about this when the site's look was changed.
Ha, you're like the people from that SP episode with that line of thought. "I want your internet money."
If it never makes any profit in any way, then you are correct. Keep in mind that TL is (or was) one of the main feeders of LP, which does make a lot of money (Nazgul has made made $200-300+ from me via just a small percentage of my FTP rakeback alone, and that's just one user from LP).
Right, but LP is a separate entity, and I think they pay their "contributors" there anyway (contributors being writers and mods).
But TL generates traffic for LP (or did so significantly), and thus some of the LP profits has to be considered to be partially as belonging to TL.
I guess I missed the point about what this has to do with anything being discussed?? Some obscure rant about how this site is nothing without the users?
Here's a little fact: Most of the users like the moderation here. It's what has kept the community viable for so long. People like you who whine about moderation apparently aren't bothered by it enough to go elsewhere. Membership is at all time high. Previously banned users come back time and time again.
All really compelling reasons to suddenly eschew strict moderation that keeps idiots out of a free forum.
You did miss the point entirely. Next time stop there before putting words in my mouth.
What words were put in your mouth? Are you denying that you whine about the moderation here?
On September 10 2010 04:58 cz wrote: Only at the mods and the really high post count people who think they are gods and act like douchebags knowing that they won't face any repercussions. Meanwhile everyone has to be nice in replying to the troll-laced, down-syndrome induced, spastic post lest they be banned.
tl;dr Mods/high post count "vets" are the most rude and biggest trolls on the site but get away with it because TL is an awkward hierarchy instead of a community with integrity and uniformly enforced rules
Artosis: whine whine bitch bitch. What a dork he is. Tasteless needs a new co-commentator.
I've been banned for calling bitchy members like you bitches so I don't see why you'd expect to get away with insulting someone who has contributed so much to the community.
I like it, although sometimes i feel that they are treating people differently. Some of the replies in the Terran whine threads are ridiculous, and there are so many people in those threads that should just get a warning/temp banned.
In the recent "fruitseller might switch races" i'd say about 10% of the posts deserve warnings, probably even more.
If someone wants to discuss balance they should do it properly, and not like "just switch terran and win everything" or "terrans only need 40 apm at top diamond" or something just completely stupid.
Any thread about anything always gets turned into a TvZ battle, usually by some post claiming that T is the easiest race ever. And these people rarely get banned. Just a few bans might set an example for the rest
But what do i know, it's probably a nightmare to moderate a video game forum :D
Many posts really deserve the warning at least and mods are doing great job at that. Also really depends on which mod is actually taking care of it. I personally got temp-banned not long ago for showing that i am not sorry for 9/11 - i shouldn't have posted what i did, but i still think .. it is my freedom of speech and opinion, right? (i didn't insult anybody or said anything about conspiracy, nor was offensive in any way). I think i did not deserve the ban, but if i could go back - i wouldn't post it as it is very sensitive subject for some people, which i did not fully-realize when i was aksed on my opinion. (still probably only acceptable opinion is: i am so sorry and god bless America) which is pretty biased when you are asked for your opinion..I have nothing against Americans and would like to ask everyone to not react to my post at any way, i just wanted to show that..Yeah, sometimes the ban does not feel justified, still most of them are. Keep up the good work TL team
people don't seem to understand that TL is a community site and that almost everyone on staff / mods started out EXACTLY as you did. we started as normal posters. it's most of the "elitist vets" that we came up with that helped shaped the TL community into what it is now, so if you don't know the history you should watch what you say.
On September 25 2010 06:15 pat965 wrote: If you have nothing useful to say, and haven't thought out your post, the absolute least you can do is not be offensive, or over-presumptuous about it, especially in the Strategy forum. I mean, the post is still a waste of space, but at least it'll probably be ignored and nobody will be offended.
On September 17 2010 19:49 archaik wrote: Artosis: whine whine bitch bitch. What a dork he is. Tasteless needs a new co-commentator.
User was warned for this post
You be the judge.
See posts like this make me question the maturity/age of some of the TL posters... how can anyone be shocked at all that they got warned for that?
Someone can say "I think artosis would be a more enjoyable commentator if he didn't complain all the time. Really hard to listen to" as opposed to what you said which has 0 value and is just annoying.
How is that at all a mystery?
Totally agree. The immaturity on these forums is just disgraceful.
On September 25 2010 07:50 Ricjames wrote: nor was offensive in any way
oh?
On September 12 2010 05:41 Ricjames wrote: I was 15 and we were having LAN session. Someone shouted: hey what the fuck, plane hit some skyscraper in New york. So we went to watch the TV. Half of us were laughing like crazy, cause it seemed ridiculously funny at that age. Actually it would be funny now too.
We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value.
People would only not visit TL if they didn't like it. Considering TL grows on a monthly basis wtf is your point?
You guys do know that there is a report feature, right? Sometimes posts get overlooked. If you use it properly, state the reason, and maybe cite that someone else was banned for the same thing, they'll not treat people differently. Oftentimes I think it's just that something was overlooked.
"Come on guys... Idra isnt god... he gonna qq like every other zerg player because they didnt receive buff..."
User was warned for this post
User was temp banned for this post.
So now the question I am raising here is "Is TL a little too strict on what can or can't be said on the forums?"
The example I provided is someone who in obvious disagreement and he has expressed that by saying "Idra isn't god." Yet, this is ban worthy? I'm wondering why it is so easy to get temp banned on TL.
Well, just a thought. Hopefully I don't get banned for this post.
It is temp-ban worthy imo, the thread was IdrA's opinion on the patch notes. This guy who is stating that "IdrA isnt god" etc wasn't talking about patch notes, or IdrA's opinion on them, just his opinion on IdrA
The fact that Idra is not god is not an opinion, it's a fact, unless I really didn't understand something.
He is just saying that Idra is not the oracle, and that he can eventually talk following his interest.
On September 25 2010 07:57 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote: You guys do know that there is a report feature, right? Sometimes posts get overlooked. If you use it properly, state the reason, and maybe cite that someone else was banned for the same thing, they'll not treat people differently. Oftentimes I think it's just that something was overlooked.
This is a good point. If you are a new user and do not have access to the report feature, you can feel free to PM a mod if you see a post that is obviously unacceptable.
On September 12 2010 05:41 Ricjames wrote: I was 15 and we were having LAN session. Someone shouted: hey what the fuck, plane hit some skyscraper in New york. So we went to watch the TV. Half of us were laughing like crazy, cause it seemed ridiculously funny at that age. Actually it would be funny now too.
Sometimes i think the moderators are too strict. Then i see posts like this and realize how stupid some people can be.
On September 25 2010 02:41 Severedevil wrote: A random guy trolling like a dick got temp banned. What's the problem?
Somebody having a negative opinion is not a troll. I have gotten 3 warnings and 2 of them I agreed with, the third one was just me speaking my opinion on something that I didn't agree with in the most honest way possible.
ALTHOUGH, Kudos to the admins for running a good forum and I am glad I got all three because it has motivated me to put more effort and think before I make posts.
On September 25 2010 07:50 Ricjames wrote: nor was offensive in any way
oh?
On September 12 2010 05:41 Ricjames wrote: I was 15 and we were having LAN session. Someone shouted: hey what the fuck, plane hit some skyscraper in New york. So we went to watch the TV. Half of us were laughing like crazy, cause it seemed ridiculously funny at that age. Actually it would be funny now too.
Sometimes i think the moderators are too strict. Then i see posts like this and realize how stupid some people can be.
Not everyone is perfect all the time either though. Sometimes users are stupid and get banned. TL doesn't usually ban people for no good reason - even if the reason isn't specifically stated in the ban thread, there is usually a history of the banned user being a terrible poster over several days (or weeks, or months)
It's really about the tone he said it in. And, he was a newly registered member. Like it or not, there is an unofficial grace period in which you need to establish yourself worthy of being a member
People saying that TL is too strict should start reading the SC2 forums constantly for 2 days. Every Post. I bet that after this two days most would opt for a 10 times increase in the number of bans/warnings than before.
well, some people get bans or warnings that they don't deserve. Like, I got temp banned for 2 days by saying "fail" to an SKT fan who complained about the Kwanro team transfer. And some other people got warned because they were insulting/complaining about marauders. :O
The staff over-moderates and the members are hypersensitive. Don't get me wrong, there is a lot of great stuff on Team Liquid, otherwise I wouldn't be lurking about. That being said it is unfortunate that StarCraft, the manliest computer game there is, has the biggest collection of blubbering vagina's on the internet.
On September 25 2010 08:08 Lightningbullet wrote: well, some people get bans or warnings that they don't deserve. Like, I got temp banned for 2 days by saying "fail" to an SKT fan who complained about the Kwanro team transfer. And some other people got warned because they were insulting/complaining about marauders. :O
You're right, one word posts are perfectly fine. /sarcasm
On September 25 2010 06:15 pat965 wrote: If you have nothing useful to say, and haven't thought out your post, the absolute least you can do is not be offensive, or over-presumptuous about it, especially in the Strategy forum. I mean, the post is still a waste of space, but at least it'll probably be ignored and nobody will be offended.
On September 17 2010 19:49 archaik wrote: Artosis: whine whine bitch bitch. What a dork he is. Tasteless needs a new co-commentator.
User was warned for this post
You be the judge.
See posts like this make me question the maturity/age of some of the TL posters... how can anyone be shocked at all that they got warned for that?
Someone can say "I think artosis would be a more enjoyable commentator if he didn't complain all the time. Really hard to listen to" as opposed to what you said which has 0 value and is just annoying.
How is that at all a mystery?
Totally agree. The immaturity on these forums is just disgraceful.
On September 25 2010 08:08 Lightningbullet wrote: well, some people get bans or warnings that they don't deserve. Like, I got temp banned for 2 days by saying "fail" to an SKT fan who complained about the Kwanro team transfer.:O
How can you think that you were banned for that one post? First you were issued this warning:
Please put some effort into your posts. One word replies and other low content posts are not appreciated here.
And then I gave this explanation for your ban:
You were warned to improve your posting, yet you continue to spew crap one-liners all over the forums. Post less or better please.
...the level of denial here is shocking. Didn't you read these explanations?
On September 25 2010 08:13 Khaymus wrote: I agree that many posts are not ban worthy/warning worthy.
I understand it is their forum...but when you restrict a forum so much on what you can say...its not so much a forum anymore.
shit posts restrict on what others can read.
Sometimes I open a thread (usually in the sc2 forum) and see 16 pages. Of course the first thing I think is "Oh wonderful, lots of important discussion on X subject!".
Then waste 30 minutes of my life reading 16 pages of flaming, useless one posters, arguing, whining, etc.
You shouldn't be asking yourself "Can I get away with posting this?", you should be asking yourself "Does my post contribute anything interesting to the discussion?".
And I mean, this is coming from me, I'm not exactly the harshest of mods..
Honestly, if you think TL is strict, try posting on EJ (Elitist Jerks - a WOW guild and discussion site). If your post does not actively contribute to the discussion and have original insight, then they will delete your post and give you a warning. I don't think TL is strict. The level of strictness they apply is good for the forums. It makes it a much more worthwhile place for discussions than other places. For example: personally, I'm not a huge fan of Idra, but I thought that troll was being a complete douche. I don't disagree with their temp ban there. I don't post on official Blizzard forums because they're too lax about trolling and flaming. If you post any kind of "newb question" you'll just get flamed and trolled endlessly because people are bored and like to be douches.
You gotta take into account people who are banned may have had a previous record of shitty posting. Just throwing this out there, sure it's been posted already.
Plus, TL is actually a lot less strict than you may believe. In other forums, getting banned = insta post nuke, or simply disagreeing with a mod can get you banned. Then there's the forums that are too lenient and turn into one-liner flame heaven.
TL mods are a good mix of strictness and leniency, if you ask me.
There's more than 1 mod then you're gonna get different results to same exact post. And even the same individual, as long as he's not a robot is gonna do things differently from time to time.
Unless someone is gonna write a guideline on how to deal with every single situation as a mod... expect some individual decisionmaking that's gonna seem inconsistent.
On September 25 2010 08:18 Lovedrop wrote: Wait, what's the requirement for report function :o
I think it's a time requirement of 1.5 years at the site for that account. You don't really need a report function to actually report bad posters, just pm a mod with a detailed explanation and a link to the horrible post. Report function just streamlines that.
On September 25 2010 07:57 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote: You guys do know that there is a report feature, right? Sometimes posts get overlooked. If you use it properly, state the reason, and maybe cite that someone else was banned for the same thing, they'll not treat people differently. Oftentimes I think it's just that something was overlooked.
This is a good point. If you are a new user and do not have access to the report feature, you can feel free to PM a mod if you see a post that is obviously unacceptable.
Imagine TL is like a mafia. If you're rude to the mafia, you get whacked. If you're part of the mafia, you can give people shit.
Sometimes you can get this illusion that TL staff isn't just a bunch of normal guys. This site looks so professional, I can't blame you. But it is, and its governed by all the social rules—fair and unfair—that you experience in the rest of your life. The only reason this place is anything is because the admins are really nice, hard working guys. 1 in a million. The rest of the staff? They're people with free time. Good apples, bad apples, this sites too big to be picky.
If you don't like TL don't come here! Remember one of their rules: "This is our home and you are our guest". If you are feeling that somehow you don't belong here just search for another Starcraft Forum.
He wasn't banned for saying Idra isn't god, he was banned for QQ'ing about Zergs who QQ, and not bringing anything constructive to the post. I think that much should be obvious.
As for TL being strict: good. I like constructive forums without much trolling.
If someone like me, that is a person who regularly gets told that they talk down to people and are pretty dickish in general, can make it 500 posts and only have one warning, then I'd say the mods aren't nearly as strict as some think.
Make a valid point without insulting someone and you have nothing to be worried about.
On September 25 2010 08:18 Lovedrop wrote: Wait, what's the requirement for report function :o
I think it's a time requirement of 1.5 years at the site for that account. You don't really need a report function to actually report bad posters, just pm a mod with a detailed explanation and a link to the horrible post. Report function just streamlines that.
On September 25 2010 07:57 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote: You guys do know that there is a report feature, right? Sometimes posts get overlooked. If you use it properly, state the reason, and maybe cite that someone else was banned for the same thing, they'll not treat people differently. Oftentimes I think it's just that something was overlooked.
This is a good point. If you are a new user and do not have access to the report feature, you can feel free to PM a mod if you see a post that is obviously unacceptable.
Man that report option is so convenient though. I'm hoping it gets me a mod bid some day. : D jk
On September 25 2010 08:22 drekk wrote: Im kinda of scared to reply to this as i don't wanna get banned again cuz it really sucks ^ ^ so I love TL plz don't ban me again.
I'd temp ban for two days to fuck with you for that. Those are just really annoying posts. Seriously, like so many people have said think "does this post contribute?" Also think, "Am I going to annoy people with this, in a bad, and non-funny way?" i.e. when you're trying to be funny think "If someone else posted this, would I lol?" If the answer is No, yes, no in that order, don't post. It's a very simple process.
I have a lot of posts here (not compared to some), but I've hit the back button on more that I can count, sometimes long posts, that I reread and said "holy shit, that's a stupid post." I'm not even amongst the best posters on this site, but if people applied that to themselves, then they wouldn't have to worry about bans, and mods wouldn't have to moderate as much.
I came here specifically because of the strictness. I need somewhere to actually discuss things intellectually whenever I need to take my troll pants off.
On September 25 2010 08:30 Kennigit wrote: the goons sc2 board has a thread dedicated to whats wrong with TL's "lax" ban standards. We are not too strict rofl
If its any comfort Kennigit I used to think you guys were real $@%'s. I think good moderating treads a very fine line between too restrictive and too lenient but I think you guys do a great job.
Lol ive been told many times, that there "is no free speech on teamliquid" I think that people just need to get used to it. Personally sometimes it can get annoying to censor certain things but I have grown to accept it over time. That's personally why I am more of a lurker lol, I don't feel like getting in an argument and then losing my cool just to get banned.
Too strict!? If anything, it is the exact opposite. You can freely state your opinion on TL and you can use whatever vocabulary you desire to do so. Just take a look at the general forum. People engage in heated, passionate discussions and have not to fear being shut up by a mod, unless of course they post pointless personal insults or derail the thread in a very stupid manner. The example in the OP is a post with no meaning or purpose. Such posts not only don't contribute, but have a destructive effect on this site. They derail threads and hamper people to share their views on the actual topic. Just take a look at the other posts on page one that instead of discussing the topic, are targeted at the incredibly insightfull first comment... TL is not strict on speech. It is strict on destructive stupidy and pointless insults. In fact, the moderation on TL is damn close to perfect.
On September 25 2010 07:59 Biff The Understudy wrote:
"Come on guys... Idra isnt god... he gonna qq like every other zerg player because they didnt receive buff..."
User was warned for this post
User was temp banned for this post.
So now the question I am raising here is "Is TL a little too strict on what can or can't be said on the forums?"
The example I provided is someone who in obvious disagreement and he has expressed that by saying "Idra isn't god." Yet, this is ban worthy? I'm wondering why it is so easy to get temp banned on TL.
Well, just a thought. Hopefully I don't get banned for this post.
It is temp-ban worthy imo, the thread was IdrA's opinion on the patch notes. This guy who is stating that "IdrA isnt god" etc wasn't talking about patch notes, or IdrA's opinion on them, just his opinion on IdrA
The fact that Idra is not god is not an opinion, it's a fact, unless I really didn't understand something.
He is just saying that Idra is not the oracle, and that he can eventually talk following his interest.
Personally, I don't find that offensive.
It doesn't matter if it is offensive or not. The post didn't serve any purpose but stirring a flamewar and derailing the thread, as can be seen when looking at the other posts on page one. Maybe the post would have been somewhat acceptable if there were one or two paragraphs (or at least a single sentence!) responding to Idra's concerns...
On September 25 2010 07:57 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote: You guys do know that there is a report feature, right? Sometimes posts get overlooked. If you use it properly, state the reason, and maybe cite that someone else was banned for the same thing, they'll not treat people differently. Oftentimes I think it's just that something was overlooked.
People only get the report option after being members for one year. I believe that's quite good though, since it gives users enough time to get used to the standards of the forum.
Wrote a post - deleted it, because I found it not very important. Now writing this, because I think it's quite a funny situation. More people should just delete their post before submitting shitty things ^_^
I think thats the reason why I didn't surpass 50 posts in the last couple of years.
On September 25 2010 08:49 Hesmyrr wrote: The moment you believe your basic right in real life applies to Team Liquid just as equally, you lose.
To be fair I've seen about 10 people saying "lol 1st amendment doesn't apply here," but I haven't seen anyone claim that they have a LEGAL right to free speech here yet. OP is just saying the level of acceptable conduct is too high and should be lowered.
On September 25 2010 08:45 grigorin wrote: Wrote a post - deleted it, because I found it not very important. Now writing this, because I think it's quite a funny situation. More people should just delete their post before submitting shitty things ^_^
I think thats the reason why I didn't surpass 50 posts in the last couple of years.
Keep TL.net clean!
Know how you feel, though I think I posted a bit faster than you, compares numbers, might be a bit of an understatement.
You can say pretty much anything on TL and not be banned for it. You can take almost any stance on any topic and not get banned. It's how you write your thoughts that count here. If you come off as a douchebag you're going to get banned. If you don't give any reasoning behind your thoughts you're going to get warned. If you're offensive to anyone you're going to get warned/banned.
As long as you write out your stance well, add thought to your argument and keep it from being inflammatory you're golden. Despite what a lot of new people think there is no rule written or unwritten about disagreeing with someone/something. It's how you present your disagreement that matters.
If you don't like TL's rules, perhaps you should spend some time over on the Battle.net forums... There you can find literally thousands of threads full of inaccurate and borderline moronic information and opinions (there are certainly some threads like that here, but the number of them is considerably lower than bnet). TL moderates in the fashion that they do because they want people to find useful and quality information, the example that the OP cited met neither of these two conditions.
On September 25 2010 08:30 Kennigit wrote: the goons sc2 board has a thread dedicated to whats wrong with TL's "lax" ban standards. We are not too strict rofl
I just had a brilliant idea: Banned people have to pay $10 to rejoin. Seriously.
I am sure it's less to do with the "Idra isn't god" statement and more to do with the " he gonna qq like every other zerg player".
Honestly, I wouldn't even mind TL being more strict. There are far too many "whine" posts, personal attacks, etc that go unchecked. I guess the admins can only do so much.
"Come on guys... Idra isnt god... he gonna qq like every other zerg player because they didnt receive buff..."
User was warned for this post
User was temp banned for this post.
So now the question I am raising here is "Is TL a little too strict on what can or can't be said on the forums?"
The example I provided is someone who in obvious disagreement and he has expressed that by saying "Idra isn't god." Yet, this is ban worthy? I'm wondering why it is so easy to get temp banned on TL.
Well, just a thought. Hopefully I don't get banned for this post.
No, the guy was trolling. You want that sort of thing allowed? Plus why would a FORUM have freedom of speech, this isn't America, it's the internet bro.
"Come on guys... Idra isnt god... he gonna qq like every other zerg player because they didnt receive buff..."
User was warned for this post
User was temp banned for this post.
So now the question I am raising here is "Is TL a little too strict on what can or can't be said on the forums?"
The example I provided is someone who in obvious disagreement and he has expressed that by saying "Idra isn't god." Yet, this is ban worthy? I'm wondering why it is so easy to get temp banned on TL.
Well, just a thought. Hopefully I don't get banned for this post.
No, the guy was trolling. You want that sort of thing allowed? Plus why would a FORUM have freedom of speech, this isn't America, it's the internet bro.
the internet is where the people of china go to to look for freedom of speech...
It's not as crazy strict as elitistjerks.com (although that said, I'm fine with that too) And it's not an absolute snooze-fest like... well... most other forums out there.
This is turning into a "Sorry for seeming and possibly being rather stupid, but I didn't quite get it the first time around - mind clarifying exactly why I got banned?"-thread
I have to say that this OP is very sub-par. Almost no effort was made in the OP. You could have given more examples, statistics, made reference to the automated ban thread. You could have done many things, but instead you made almost no effort to make a thoughtful OP
Honestly, the only reason I think this thread stayed open is because its topic is "Are moderators too strict".
imo, we should have the debate in this thread, but it should be done in a thread with a better OP and this one should be closed.
Strict moderation is the only way to keep huge communities from dissolving into mush similar to blizzard public forums and most fan sites. TL is the #1 site for many reasons, and the prompt and strict moderation is one of them. Sometimes accounts are even banned before their first post (obvious malicious users), which is impressive in my book.
Everyone on this thread is afraid of getting banned so they are saying they like TL the way it is XD
jk, TL can be ran how it wants to be ran I cant really say it should be one way or another, if they want to run it stricter than communist Germany so be it.
The moderation is fine. It's much better than a forum I go to that has filtered out the words "teh" and "ftw" for whatever reason and ban you if you swear.
On September 25 2010 10:44 scottyyy wrote: The moderation is fine. It's much better than a forum I go to that has filtered out the words "teh" and "ftw" for whatever reason and ban you if you swear.
On September 25 2010 10:39 OriginalBeast wrote: Everyone on this thread is afraid of getting banned so they are saying they like TL the way it is XD
You're kidding right? There has been a lot of criticism of TL moderation in here. And as Hot_Bid (and multiple other mods) pointed out, anyone is free to criticize TL. We like criticism, it sometimes helps make the site better. We only ask that you do it civilly and in the proper venue.
I guess the fact that this is a gaming website, the majority of the moderators should be fairly younger than moderators from other forums. So maybe they are less patient or less forgiving as to how people express their ideas.
But it's up to us users with accounts from this website to know that they are the authority in here, and therefore we got to follow their rules.
On September 25 2010 10:46 r3z3nd3 wrote: Holy cow, I was thinking the same thing after I read that ban, but you know, theur forum, their rules. If Idra can't be criticized here, so be it.
Idra can be criticised. He gets a huge amount of shit on here, albeit most of it caused directly by his own trolling of people who don't understand his sense of humour. But criticism of any player must be on topic, if you just start randomly shitting on a player in a topic then other people will start giving you shit and then before you know it there's shit everywhere. Instead of looking just at the opinion voiced in the post and then judging whether we agree or disagree with the opinion based on mod reaction you should look at it within the context. Most of the time it'll be because it was a terrible contribution or caused a shitstorm, not because of the opinion itself. Keep it on topic, generate intelligent discussion and contribute and you can say what you like.
It's not just what is said, but also who says it. If you want to be able to make new threads with only a few lines and a link (Artosis), type with the swagger of a captain strutting around his ship (FakeSteve), or make single-line-long comments on balance and expect to be taken seriously (HuK)... you need to earn that right. You earn that by contributing to the site.
If a new member comes along and insults a known and respected veteran offhandedly... yeah, that's just not gonna stand.
On September 12 2010 05:41 Ricjames wrote: I was 15 and we were having LAN session. Someone shouted: hey what the fuck, plane hit some skyscraper in New york. So we went to watch the TV. Half of us were laughing like crazy, cause it seemed ridiculously funny at that age. Actually it would be funny now too.
JWD i don't want to argue or go into it again. Only thing i want to say is that i meant it seems funny to me if a damn airplane hits skyscraper, the outcome however is not funny at all of course...Death of innocent people is not funny and i would never say that. Still.. even if i would, i don't think it deserves ban - you could say what a fucking psycho, i would never stay anywhere close to this person, cause i would be afraid he wants to torture me to death with his dull home-made knife...and not comment it at all and certainly not ban the poor psycho for having different taste than you have. If i remember correctly the thread asked about what were people doing, how do they remember the day and what is their feeling and you can't ban someone for expressing his feeling...i think
I thoroughly enjoy the level of moderation here. If you are going to spout some uninformed bullshit flaming IdrA (who, believe it or not, is a real person with feelings), you deserve to be punished. I rarely see a ban or a warn where it was not warranted. I'd just like to thank the mods and admins for doing a great job here.
I feel like the moderation is lacking in the strategy forums but is sufficient everywhere else. In the strategy forums, it feels as if there aren't as many mods on as there should be, or that it isn't strict enough. I use to frequently read said forum but it always seems like I'm running into thread derailers, complainers, or people who just make shitty uninformed posts.
On September 25 2010 07:50 Ricjames wrote: nor was offensive in any way
oh?
On September 12 2010 05:41 Ricjames wrote: I was 15 and we were having LAN session. Someone shouted: hey what the fuck, plane hit some skyscraper in New york. So we went to watch the TV. Half of us were laughing like crazy, cause it seemed ridiculously funny at that age. Actually it would be funny now too.
JWD i don't want to argue or go into it again. Only thing i want to say is that i meant it seems funny to me if a damn airplane hits skyscraper, the outcome however is not funny at all of course...Death of innocent people is not funny and i would never say that. Still.. even if i would, i don't think it deserves ban - you could say what a fucking psycho, i would never stay anywhere close to this person, cause i would be afraid he wants to torture me to death with his dull home-made knife...and not comment it at all and certainly not ban the poor psycho for having different taste than you have. If i remember correctly the thread asked about what were people doing, how do they remember the day and what is their feeling and you can't ban someone for expressing his feeling...i think
How do you not see how your comment is inappropriate? Even if that's what you were doing, you should have chosen to not respond to that thread. I just can't fathom how you think that's an acceptable response in any manner. Especially not in a thread that obviously has some very highly emotional meaning to a lot of members of the forum. Seriously, wtf is wrong with you?
TL is not a strict forum, if anything it should be even more moderated than it is right now so that idiots don't make so many retarded comments and threads. Go post in some other shitty forums filled with more garbage and see how much difference there is.
On September 25 2010 11:17 dybydx wrote: i've made a post to congratulate someone for finding a rare piece of information but was temp banned cause my post was "insulting".
TL was never meant to be a place for free speech though, so we might be expecting too much.
I generally don't warn/ban people for saying things that I think make no sense, but since I think what you said made no sense, I'll at least point it out.
Everyone has a paraphrased story where they got banned for something ridiculous and then when you investigate, 9/10 times it was completely a justified ban (at least). Evidence or it didn't happen. Not saying you have to provide evidence now, but do provide evidence if you want it taken seriously.
Your last comment is ridiculous. Do you know what free speech is? If you simply mean 'a place where we can speak freely' then there's no need for any moderators whatsoever (which almost everyone here agrees would be a nightmare). The 'speech' that is allowed is outlined in the 10 commandments thread. The 10 commandments are not the government and do not constitute free speech laws.
Whiny complaints are generally going to draw a negative response too.
On September 25 2010 07:50 Ricjames wrote: nor was offensive in any way
oh?
On September 12 2010 05:41 Ricjames wrote: I was 15 and we were having LAN session. Someone shouted: hey what the fuck, plane hit some skyscraper in New york. So we went to watch the TV. Half of us were laughing like crazy, cause it seemed ridiculously funny at that age. Actually it would be funny now too.
JWD i don't want to argue or go into it again. Only thing i want to say is that i meant it seems funny to me if a damn airplane hits skyscraper, the outcome however is not funny at all of course...Death of innocent people is not funny and i would never say that. Still.. even if i would, i don't think it deserves ban - you could say what a fucking psycho, i would never stay anywhere close to this person, cause i would be afraid he wants to torture me to death with his dull home-made knife...and not comment it at all and certainly not ban the poor psycho for having different taste than you have. If i remember correctly the thread asked about what were people doing, how do they remember the day and what is their feeling and you can't ban someone for expressing his feeling...i think
Stop for a second and think about the people who lost a loved relative/friend there and how they would feel about reading your comment.
Agree with Intothewow. I actually was in a situation where I was with people like you (Ricjames) during the wtc attacks. If they came to tl I wouldn't ban them but if the reminisced about it and seemed like they were cool with it after the fact in a sensitive thread then I would. Tact please.
TL attracts a lot of people. I'd rather have the current mods, even if they get a little trigger happy at times from some people's perspective (doesn't seem too bad from what I've seen so far) then have a giant site with message boards like gamefaqs. There's enough people that get a kick out of trolling that it could easily descend into something like that with all the incoming people due to SC2's release. The mods seem to be doing a great job at curbing such behavior.
It's nice to see a post where someone just trolls for no reason and gets smacked by a mod quite quickly. TL isn't afraid to bitchslap people if they're acting like idiots. A lot of trolls/griefers/whatever like to make a game of "not quite breaking the rules" while still causing trouble. Mods here seem to be given the freedom to call people on that shit if they see someone to be cute like that, instead of having to wait to catch them openly breaking some rule.
It's like a little kid hovering his finger an inch away from your face chanting "I'm not touching you, I'm not touching you!" Then a TL mod walks into the thread, gives that annoying little kid a roundhouse to the face, and says "Don't be a fucking retard."
TL's modding is probably some of the best on the internet, and yet they still give some posts entirely too much leeway. Be glad we have what we have or this would turn into 4chan.
TL made me a better poster, TL made me act like a grown up in one of the finest if not the best forum on the internet... every now and then Ill get shitty postings and they will immediately point me out and say "hey! becareful with ur posts, etc" they treat forum vets with alot more leeway and they will temp ban newbies so they can learn and be better posters, after all this is their house and you have to go by their rules! this site is perfect today because of their mods!
TL is the only forum i EVER read or post in, i have a feeling the mods here are adults and thats just the way i like it, im 25 years old and id rather see a few banhammer then a bunch of kids posting because they have to much time on theyr hand and no real point.
If you like starcraft, this is the one site that really steps above any other out there, you can find anything SC related pretty much instantly because they manage it the way they do. they are pretty kind to even let the thread up, this is not helping anyone.
Coming sites like EJ and SA, I find it unbelievable that people think the TL staff is being too strict. Posters on TL allowed post two-three word replies with absolutely no effort put into them. Whining, low content, and bad posting are tolerated, I have no idea why people think the admins are being too strict. There are only a few rules that you need follow and they are pretty hard to break, unless you're purposely trying to get banned.
Some tips on how not to get banned~ -Use proper grammar and capitalization (This would be a good rule to add to certain subforums) -Avoid "internet speak" like "u" and shit like "lolz" (This too) -Don't get angry over a video game forum -Use the preview post button, it is very useful -When reading a post, judge it by the content and not by post count
On September 25 2010 07:50 Ricjames wrote: nor was offensive in any way
oh?
On September 12 2010 05:41 Ricjames wrote: I was 15 and we were having LAN session. Someone shouted: hey what the fuck, plane hit some skyscraper in New york. So we went to watch the TV. Half of us were laughing like crazy, cause it seemed ridiculously funny at that age. Actually it would be funny now too.
JWD i don't want to argue or go into it again. Only thing i want to say is that i meant it seems funny to me if a damn airplane hits skyscraper, the outcome however is not funny at all of course...Death of innocent people is not funny and i would never say that. Still.. even if i would, i don't think it deserves ban - you could say what a fucking psycho, i would never stay anywhere close to this person, cause i would be afraid he wants to torture me to death with his dull home-made knife...and not comment it at all and certainly not ban the poor psycho for having different taste than you have. If i remember correctly the thread asked about what were people doing, how do they remember the day and what is their feeling and you can't ban someone for expressing his feeling...i think
Stop for a second and think about the people who lost a loved relative/friend there and how they would feel about reading your comment.
On September 25 2010 11:28 micronesia wrote: Agree with Intothewow. I actually was in a situation where I was with people like you (Ricjames) during the wtc attacks. If they came to tl I wouldn't ban them but if the reminisced about it and seemed like they were cool with it after the fact in a sensitive thread then I would. Tact please.
Keep in mind that if you enforce rules like this, then abiding by the same logic, you mustn't allow people to say "raped" - even in the oh so popular gaming sense. To quote IntoTheWow, "Stop and think about people to whom it may have actually happened."
I've gotten banned for opinions before too where someone else right before me posted the same thing and didn't get banned. Its pretty arbitrary and inconsistent how they punish along with varied severity of punishment which really undermines any sort of authority or respect. There should be consistent reasons and an explanation on bans rather than roll of dice, mod disagree's with you, etc.
On September 25 2010 12:11 blitzkrieger wrote: I've gotten banned for opinions before too where someone else right before me posted the same thing and didn't get banned. Its pretty arbitrary and inconsistent how they punish along with varied severity of punishment which really undermines any sort of authority or respect. There should be consistent reasons and an explanation on bans rather than roll of dice, mod disagree's with you, etc.
Yes, because it isn't about what opinions you post, its about how you post them.
And knowing you, you probably posted them in a pretty retarded manner ~_~.
On September 25 2010 07:50 Ricjames wrote: nor was offensive in any way
oh?
On September 12 2010 05:41 Ricjames wrote: I was 15 and we were having LAN session. Someone shouted: hey what the fuck, plane hit some skyscraper in New york. So we went to watch the TV. Half of us were laughing like crazy, cause it seemed ridiculously funny at that age. Actually it would be funny now too.
JWD i don't want to argue or go into it again. Only thing i want to say is that i meant it seems funny to me if a damn airplane hits skyscraper, the outcome however is not funny at all of course...Death of innocent people is not funny and i would never say that. Still.. even if i would, i don't think it deserves ban - you could say what a fucking psycho, i would never stay anywhere close to this person, cause i would be afraid he wants to torture me to death with his dull home-made knife...and not comment it at all and certainly not ban the poor psycho for having different taste than you have. If i remember correctly the thread asked about what were people doing, how do they remember the day and what is their feeling and you can't ban someone for expressing his feeling...i think
Stop for a second and think about the people who lost a loved relative/friend there and how they would feel about reading your comment.
Guys i am not gonna continue to discuss this topic as i don't want to get to any horrible situation. My first post in this thread had the line: "i shouldn't have posted what i did" in it. JWD should quote the whole post, beacuse people who don't read the whole thread might lose the context. I posted in the original thread, because i wanted to show something (the quote is not full again). I am very sorry for the victims, however i am not sorry for the incident/situation. It is hard to explain and connected to more things. You might hate me for it, but still can't just simply get rid of me. So I stand behind that you can't just ban someone if his opinion hurts your feelings, that is not how the world and freedom of speech work. That is how nazis and communists work. If the thread was called condolence to the victims - i would not post what i did there.
On September 25 2010 07:50 Ricjames wrote: nor was offensive in any way
oh?
On September 12 2010 05:41 Ricjames wrote: I was 15 and we were having LAN session. Someone shouted: hey what the fuck, plane hit some skyscraper in New york. So we went to watch the TV. Half of us were laughing like crazy, cause it seemed ridiculously funny at that age. Actually it would be funny now too.
JWD i don't want to argue or go into it again. Only thing i want to say is that i meant it seems funny to me if a damn airplane hits skyscraper, the outcome however is not funny at all of course...Death of innocent people is not funny and i would never say that. Still.. even if i would, i don't think it deserves ban - you could say what a fucking psycho, i would never stay anywhere close to this person, cause i would be afraid he wants to torture me to death with his dull home-made knife...and not comment it at all and certainly not ban the poor psycho for having different taste than you have. If i remember correctly the thread asked about what were people doing, how do they remember the day and what is their feeling and you can't ban someone for expressing his feeling...i think
Stop for a second and think about the people who lost a loved relative/friend there and how they would feel about reading your comment.
On September 25 2010 11:28 micronesia wrote: Agree with Intothewow. I actually was in a situation where I was with people like you (Ricjames) during the wtc attacks. If they came to tl I wouldn't ban them but if the reminisced about it and seemed like they were cool with it after the fact in a sensitive thread then I would. Tact please.
Keep in mind that if you enforce rules like this, then abiding by the same logic, you mustn't allow people to say "raped" - even in the oh so popular gaming sense. To quote IntoTheWow, "Stop and think about people to whom it may have actually happened."
Except people don't go around saying they "ran a plane into" somebody else. In the context of Ricjames' post, it was a bad move and his ban was justified.
On September 25 2010 12:11 blitzkrieger wrote: I've gotten banned for opinions before too where someone else right before me posted the same thing and didn't get banned. Its pretty arbitrary and inconsistent how they punish along with varied severity of punishment which really undermines any sort of authority or respect. There should be consistent reasons and an explanation on bans rather than roll of dice, mod disagree's with you, etc.
Which post were you banned for? It's not exactly hard to imagine why you would be banned, but humor us.
The fact that people feel so entitled to say whatever they want just because its the internet is laughable. If you walk into somebody's house and say your stupid opinion that nobody cares about or is obviously offensive, you're gonna be shown the door. This will happen in business centers as well. In fact, it even happens if you do not get the proper permissions/permits to hold a huge politically charged rally in a city area, and you will even get shut down if its done in a disruptive way. Its no different here. You can't say whatever you want here because it's our house. So play by our rules.
And quite frankly, the 1st Amendment right is often misunderstood to mean that nobody has the right to make you shut up. It's not. It means the GOVERNMENT cannot. And we're not the government. So this is our house. And we'll do what we want to make this a place that's actually pleasant to be at.
We do make mistakes but it's way better this way than the ridiculous immature loads of crap you'll find in 99% of the internet.
On September 25 2010 07:50 Ricjames wrote: nor was offensive in any way
oh?
On September 12 2010 05:41 Ricjames wrote: I was 15 and we were having LAN session. Someone shouted: hey what the fuck, plane hit some skyscraper in New york. So we went to watch the TV. Half of us were laughing like crazy, cause it seemed ridiculously funny at that age. Actually it would be funny now too.
JWD i don't want to argue or go into it again. Only thing i want to say is that i meant it seems funny to me if a damn airplane hits skyscraper, the outcome however is not funny at all of course...Death of innocent people is not funny and i would never say that. Still.. even if i would, i don't think it deserves ban - you could say what a fucking psycho, i would never stay anywhere close to this person, cause i would be afraid he wants to torture me to death with his dull home-made knife...and not comment it at all and certainly not ban the poor psycho for having different taste than you have. If i remember correctly the thread asked about what were people doing, how do they remember the day and what is their feeling and you can't ban someone for expressing his feeling...i think
Stop for a second and think about the people who lost a loved relative/friend there and how they would feel about reading your comment.
On September 25 2010 11:28 micronesia wrote: Agree with Intothewow. I actually was in a situation where I was with people like you (Ricjames) during the wtc attacks. If they came to tl I wouldn't ban them but if the reminisced about it and seemed like they were cool with it after the fact in a sensitive thread then I would. Tact please.
Keep in mind that if you enforce rules like this, then abiding by the same logic, you mustn't allow people to say "raped" - even in the oh so popular gaming sense. To quote IntoTheWow, "Stop and think about people to whom it may have actually happened."
I don't agree with you. Not everything that could possibly be insensitive to somebody should be lumped together and dealt with the same way. But to continue your example... the analogous situation wouldn't be someone using the word rape.... it would be someone laughing at how funny it is to knowingly use the word rape which is much worse in the eyes of a rape victim, I believe.
On September 25 2010 12:11 blitzkrieger wrote: I've gotten banned for opinions before too where someone else right before me posted the same thing and didn't get banned. Its pretty arbitrary and inconsistent how they punish along with varied severity of punishment which really undermines any sort of authority or respect. There should be consistent reasons and an explanation on bans rather than roll of dice, mod disagree's with you, etc.
Evidence or it didn't happen. Occasionally something like that does and will happen when you have thousands of posts every day, many of them terrible. If a wrong is made, then with evidence it can hopefully be corrected. Imagine if you were a mod and you read hundreds of cases of people claiming they were punished unfairly without providing any evidence.... kinda pointless.
On September 25 2010 07:50 Ricjames wrote: nor was offensive in any way
oh?
On September 12 2010 05:41 Ricjames wrote: I was 15 and we were having LAN session. Someone shouted: hey what the fuck, plane hit some skyscraper in New york. So we went to watch the TV. Half of us were laughing like crazy, cause it seemed ridiculously funny at that age. Actually it would be funny now too.
JWD i don't want to argue or go into it again. Only thing i want to say is that i meant it seems funny to me if a damn airplane hits skyscraper, the outcome however is not funny at all of course...Death of innocent people is not funny and i would never say that. Still.. even if i would, i don't think it deserves ban - you could say what a fucking psycho, i would never stay anywhere close to this person, cause i would be afraid he wants to torture me to death with his dull home-made knife...and not comment it at all and certainly not ban the poor psycho for having different taste than you have. If i remember correctly the thread asked about what were people doing, how do they remember the day and what is their feeling and you can't ban someone for expressing his feeling...i think
Stop for a second and think about the people who lost a loved relative/friend there and how they would feel about reading your comment.
Guys i am not gonna continue to discuss this topic as i don't want to get to any horrible situation. My first post in this thread had the line: "i shouldn't have posted what i did" in it. JWD should quote the whole post, beacuse people who don't read the whole thread might lose the context. I posted in the original thread, because i wanted to show something (the quote is not full again). I am very sorry for the victims, however i am not sorry for the incident/situation. It is hard to explain and connected to more things. You might hate me for it, but still can't just simply get rid of me. So I stand behind that you can't just ban someone if his opinion hurts your feelings, that is not how the world and freedom of speech work. That is how nazis and communists work. If the thread was called condolence to the victims - i would not post what i did there.
edit: Solar made a good point too..
Nah I appreciate where you are coming from and I don't think we'll have this type of issue again so cool.
But we definitely don't ban people because they simply hurt our feelings... or if that ever happens it is a mistake that we try to fix.
On September 25 2010 07:50 Ricjames wrote: nor was offensive in any way
oh?
On September 12 2010 05:41 Ricjames wrote: I was 15 and we were having LAN session. Someone shouted: hey what the fuck, plane hit some skyscraper in New york. So we went to watch the TV. Half of us were laughing like crazy, cause it seemed ridiculously funny at that age. Actually it would be funny now too.
JWD i don't want to argue or go into it again. Only thing i want to say is that i meant it seems funny to me if a damn airplane hits skyscraper, the outcome however is not funny at all of course...Death of innocent people is not funny and i would never say that. Still.. even if i would, i don't think it deserves ban - you could say what a fucking psycho, i would never stay anywhere close to this person, cause i would be afraid he wants to torture me to death with his dull home-made knife...and not comment it at all and certainly not ban the poor psycho for having different taste than you have. If i remember correctly the thread asked about what were people doing, how do they remember the day and what is their feeling and you can't ban someone for expressing his feeling...i think
Stop for a second and think about the people who lost a loved relative/friend there and how they would feel about reading your comment.
Guys i am not gonna continue to discuss this topic as i don't want to get to any horrible situation. My first post in this thread had the line: "i shouldn't have posted what i did" in it. JWD should quote the whole post, beacuse people who don't read the whole thread might lose the context. I posted in the original thread, because i wanted to show something (the quote is not full again). I am very sorry for the victims, however i am not sorry for the incident/situation. It is hard to explain and connected to more things. You might hate me for it, but still can't just simply get rid of me. So I stand behind that you can't just ban someone if his opinion hurts your feelings, that is not how the world and freedom of speech work. That is how nazis and communists work. If the thread was called condolence to the victims - i would not post what i did there.
edit: Solar made a good point too..
You should read TL Ten Commandments, what does the very first commandment say?
You are our guests. We will make all attempts to treat everyone with due respect and to accommodate everyone's wishes as far as reasonably possible. But, this is a private site. We are not a "for profit" enterprise. We are not funded by any governments. This means we run the site the way we see fit. We are not obligated to observe anyone's notions of "free speech" or even "fairness." We try of course, and that's why we're consistently considered one of the best gaming sites on the web, and you are always free to give us suggestions (Website Feedback Forum). But, we have our limits. If we don't like you, we simply IP ban you. If we're really pissed off, then we IP ban you AND nuke every single post you've uploaded to the site - ever. It will be as if you had never existed here. This is our house. You've been warned.
RicjamesI am very sorry for the victims, however i am not sorry for the incident/situation. It is hard to explain and connected to more things.
I think as the ancient Greeks would put it, it does not follow. You're making less and less sense as you continue to justify it, just keep in mind how much easier it would be if you just apologised without reserve and dropped the issue. That is the point of the moderator's punishment: to teach so that one can improve their posting. I suppose the lesson you should learn is that just because you find something funny doesn't mean it should be made public.
That is how nazis and communists work
It's actually much more like a benevolent dictatorship, which is the most effective system of government.
Honestly, the fact that the moderators will post in this thread enmasse to defend the system they have set up without shutting the thread says more than anything else about the amount of liberty given on this site.
I like being part of a forum that is more on the stricter side of moderating. The only part I dislike about it is how daunting it can be to start a new topic :s Sometimes I feel like in order to start a new topic or discussion I need to take the time out to write a whole dissertation on it before making my first post lol. Eventually I'll find something worth making my own topic about I'm sure.
On September 25 2010 12:36 AJMcSpiffy wrote: I like being part of a forum that is more on the stricter side of moderating. The only part I dislike about it is how daunting it can be to start a new topic :s Sometimes I feel like in order to start a new topic or discussion I need to take the time out to write a whole dissertation on it before making my first post lol. Eventually I'll find something worth making my own topic about I'm sure.
quite a few of these threads popping up recently, huh? we must be doing something right! this is how i see moderation here:
On September 19 2010 12:46 intrigue wrote: new posters are like puppies, like yeah they can be really cute and nice but if they aren't house trained they'll still shit all over the floor. now imagine a room full of nerdy puppies excited over the release of a popular pc game's sequel, spewing their wastes and dirtying their paws and spreading it everywhere, just everywhere like on the walls and windows and on your shirt and face. once it starts, there's no cleaning it up. that's why we are pretty strict with our rules - ultimately the only thing you need to do to not get banned is to be able to control your e-bowels.
this analogy is apt for the poster population as a whole, because older dogs are also quite prone to losing control of their various sphincters. but when a dog you really love makes a doo-doo, it's more like "aww you poor doggie you".
On September 25 2010 07:50 Ricjames wrote: nor was offensive in any way
oh?
On September 12 2010 05:41 Ricjames wrote: I was 15 and we were having LAN session. Someone shouted: hey what the fuck, plane hit some skyscraper in New york. So we went to watch the TV. Half of us were laughing like crazy, cause it seemed ridiculously funny at that age. Actually it would be funny now too.
JWD i don't want to argue or go into it again. Only thing i want to say is that i meant it seems funny to me if a damn airplane hits skyscraper, the outcome however is not funny at all of course...Death of innocent people is not funny and i would never say that. Still.. even if i would, i don't think it deserves ban - you could say what a fucking psycho, i would never stay anywhere close to this person, cause i would be afraid he wants to torture me to death with his dull home-made knife...and not comment it at all and certainly not ban the poor psycho for having different taste than you have. If i remember correctly the thread asked about what were people doing, how do they remember the day and what is their feeling and you can't ban someone for expressing his feeling...i think
Stop for a second and think about the people who lost a loved relative/friend there and how they would feel about reading your comment.
On September 25 2010 11:28 micronesia wrote: Agree with Intothewow. I actually was in a situation where I was with people like you (Ricjames) during the wtc attacks. If they came to tl I wouldn't ban them but if the reminisced about it and seemed like they were cool with it after the fact in a sensitive thread then I would. Tact please.
Keep in mind that if you enforce rules like this, then abiding by the same logic, you mustn't allow people to say "raped" - even in the oh so popular gaming sense. To quote IntoTheWow, "Stop and think about people to whom it may have actually happened."
I don't agree with you. Not everything that could possibly be insensitive to somebody should be lumped together and dealt with the same way. But to continue your example... the analogous situation wouldn't be someone using the word rape.... it would be someone laughing at how funny it is to knowingly use the word rape which is much worse in the eyes of a rape victim, I believe.
On September 25 2010 12:11 blitzkrieger wrote: I've gotten banned for opinions before too where someone else right before me posted the same thing and didn't get banned. Its pretty arbitrary and inconsistent how they punish along with varied severity of punishment which really undermines any sort of authority or respect. There should be consistent reasons and an explanation on bans rather than roll of dice, mod disagree's with you, etc.
Evidence or it didn't happen. Occasionally something like that does and will happen when you have thousands of posts every day, many of them terrible. If a wrong is made, then with evidence it can hopefully be corrected. Imagine if you were a mod and you read hundreds of cases of people claiming they were punished unfairly without providing any evidence.... kinda pointless.
On September 25 2010 07:50 Ricjames wrote: nor was offensive in any way
oh?
On September 12 2010 05:41 Ricjames wrote: I was 15 and we were having LAN session. Someone shouted: hey what the fuck, plane hit some skyscraper in New york. So we went to watch the TV. Half of us were laughing like crazy, cause it seemed ridiculously funny at that age. Actually it would be funny now too.
JWD i don't want to argue or go into it again. Only thing i want to say is that i meant it seems funny to me if a damn airplane hits skyscraper, the outcome however is not funny at all of course...Death of innocent people is not funny and i would never say that. Still.. even if i would, i don't think it deserves ban - you could say what a fucking psycho, i would never stay anywhere close to this person, cause i would be afraid he wants to torture me to death with his dull home-made knife...and not comment it at all and certainly not ban the poor psycho for having different taste than you have. If i remember correctly the thread asked about what were people doing, how do they remember the day and what is their feeling and you can't ban someone for expressing his feeling...i think
Stop for a second and think about the people who lost a loved relative/friend there and how they would feel about reading your comment.
Guys i am not gonna continue to discuss this topic as i don't want to get to any horrible situation. My first post in this thread had the line: "i shouldn't have posted what i did" in it. JWD should quote the whole post, beacuse people who don't read the whole thread might lose the context. I posted in the original thread, because i wanted to show something (the quote is not full again). I am very sorry for the victims, however i am not sorry for the incident/situation. It is hard to explain and connected to more things. You might hate me for it, but still can't just simply get rid of me. So I stand behind that you can't just ban someone if his opinion hurts your feelings, that is not how the world and freedom of speech work. That is how nazis and communists work. If the thread was called condolence to the victims - i would not post what i did there.
edit: Solar made a good point too..
Nah I appreciate where you are coming from and I don't think we'll have this type of issue again so cool.
But we definitely don't ban people because they simply hurt our feelings... or if that ever happens it is a mistake that we try to fix.
Finally someone who understands, thank you. As i said i appreciate TL team for what you are doing and keep up the good work.
On September 25 2010 12:48 intrigue wrote: quite a few of these threads popping up recently, huh? we must be doing something right! this is how i see moderation here:
On September 19 2010 12:46 intrigue wrote: new posters are like puppies, like yeah they can be really cute and nice but if they aren't house trained they'll still shit all over the floor. now imagine a room full of nerdy puppies excited over the release of a popular pc game's sequel, spewing their wastes and dirtying their paws and spreading it everywhere, just everywhere like on the walls and windows and on your shirt and face. once it starts, there's no cleaning it up. that's why we are pretty strict with our rules - ultimately the only thing you need to do to not get banned is to be able to control your e-bowels.
this analogy is apt for the poster population as a whole, because older dogs are also quite prone to losing control of their various sphincters. but when a dog you really love makes a doo-doo, it's more like "aww you poor doggie you".
I like my trolls banner and I see no reason for change. I think the TL admins do a great job even if they might slip up every now and then. Trying to Admin all of TL must be a nightmare.
Since this discussion has exploded at a non-normal rate, would someone be able to make a poll on this topic and put it in the OP, to settle it pretty much? (I assume the results would be overwhelmingly one-sided, but it would be interesting to see actually what %'s each opinion picks up)
TL i the best forum around, I wouldn't change anything. As long as your not an ass, you don't have to worry about being banned/warned, their rules are not that strict.
On September 25 2010 14:20 Ichabod wrote: Since this discussion has exploded at a non-normal rate, would someone be able to make a poll on this topic and put it in the OP, to settle it pretty much? (I assume the results would be overwhelmingly one-sided, but it would be interesting to see actually what %'s each opinion picks up)
Not that I'm against this idea or anything, but why would the poll matter? The mods have already stated it's not a democracy, therefore they wouldn't care either way, lol.
TL moderation is best on the internet that I have seen, I hope it continues and is extremely strict with new posters and poorly thought out posts (even from veterans).
It's typical that the same people who tend to receive warnings are those who won't understand why they were warned once it happens.
Ah patience, it truly is a virtue.
EDIT: And for those who keep making comparisons to 4chan whether positive or negative, consider that the moderation (especially by moot) can vary from draconian to completely random. /tg/ is a good example of late, with a moderator finally having paid some attention to it and as a result dispensing mass bannings and enforcing a zero-tolerance policy on NSFW images and meta-threads.
TL's moderation is just the way I like it. No BS'ing around and stamping down on the non-quality posts makes this one of the best communities on the internet.
The preview button is great. I would probably have double the post count I do if the preview button weren't there. I probably would have been banned by now, too. It's always a good idea to review what you just wrote before you post it. Like with everything on the Internet: once it's out there, there's no retracting it.
On September 25 2010 14:20 Ichabod wrote: Since this discussion has exploded at a non-normal rate, would someone be able to make a poll on this topic and put it in the OP, to settle it pretty much? (I assume the results would be overwhelmingly one-sided, but it would be interesting to see actually what %'s each opinion picks up)
Not that I'm against this idea or anything, but why would the poll matter? The mods have already stated it's not a democracy, therefore they wouldn't care either way, lol.
I guess it really wouldn't matter, but it might be interesting, and most of the arguments for and against the discipline of TL have already been addressed...is there anything else to talk about in this thread? + Show Spoiler +
and if the poll turns out overwhelmingly in favor of TL's strictness (I don't really think it would turn out differently, since ppl would just leave I'd they didn't like it), it would basically end this discussion by pointing out the anarchists (hyperbole, but it mostly fits) are in the minority.
The only reason I'm still around at TL after 7 years when I've left pretty much every other forum is the strict moderation and the high post quality that it brings. Lately things have been getting worse though so I if anything, I'd say MORE BANS! There are plenty of posters on the Internet, so I'd gladly see TL ban ten poor posters if it means we get to keep a single good one. I also get the feeling that most poor posters are just that, poor posters. They're not likely to magically turn around and start posting awesome threads all of a sudden (unless it's an age thing which I doubt). I strongly support being elitist in terms of thread and post quality. There are plenty of people putting lot's of time and effort into great posts and great threads, so why should we let the people who doesn't ruin all the hard work?
his post didn't exactly contribute anything worth mentioning i'm glad if anything the tl mods are active and i understand erring on the side of caution because they're so tired of people just crying in every thread
Their willingness to ban, but almost always temporarily is part of the reason that this is the best gaming community I've ever seen. The CS, Quake, MMO, dota-style, xboxlive, etc. communities are all full of little shits, this is really a welcome thing in my opinion to have the mods doing their jobs.
On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote: While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes.
I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased.
Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell.
On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.
His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_-
On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote: We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value.
Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then.
There are no shares because total ownership is in one person's hands or is in the hands of two or more people with an informal agreement. The bottom line, however, is that TL can both make money and has sell value. You don't get a check because the owner isn't willing to pay. It's the same thing with any website: pageviews and active membership create value that either is monetized or can be monetized through advertisement, direct sales, or so on. As a result the viewers add value to the site through their simple viewing of it (pageviews are a large factor in advertising rates) and through adding to the community which in turn attracts more.
I think your perspective on how valuable your click is is way out there. Everything on the site is free, and if the side effect of you enjoying the content of the site is that we have a number to show an advertiser, that is not a direct contribution by you. It is a side effect of your presence. Even if you want to give a monetary value to your click, it is so out of whack with what you get in return that criticizing people for being thankful is really uncool. Your sense of entitlement is pretty sickening from my perspective.
On September 25 2010 11:04 youlijp wrote: I guess the fact that this is a gaming website, the majority of the moderators should be fairly younger than moderators from other forums. So maybe they are less patient or less forgiving as to how people express their ideas.
But it's up to us users with accounts from this website to know that they are the authority in here, and therefore we got to follow their rules.
"Come on guys... Idra isnt god... he gonna qq like every other zerg player because they didnt receive buff..."
User was warned for this post
User was temp banned for this post.
So now the question I am raising here is "Is TL a little too strict on what can or can't be said on the forums?"
The example I provided is someone who in obvious disagreement and he has expressed that by saying "Idra isn't god." Yet, this is ban worthy? I'm wondering why it is so easy to get temp banned on TL.
Well, just a thought. Hopefully I don't get banned for this post.
that ban was deserved.. TL could be even more strict.. i like it how it is.
I got banned for saying Nada is Judas for jumping ship to SC2. I thought that ban was very harsh, but in general the moderating here is good and it's helped TL improve as a site. In the old days it was wayyyy less organized.
On September 25 2010 15:46 Evil_Monkey_ wrote: I got banned for saying Nada is Judas for jumping ship to SC2. I thought that ban was very harsh, but in general the moderating here is good and it's helped TL improve as a site. In the old days it was wayyyy less organized.
haha reading users characterize the behavior that got them banned is so entertaining!
You didn't just call NaDa Judas, you said he was "a bigger Judas than Savior". And you can bet that it was the comparison to Savior, not Judas, that got you the ban. Yet you've left Savior out of your post above...
Tough ban but it was only 2 days. Glad you still have faith in the mods.
On September 25 2010 15:24 matjlav wrote: The only time I can think of when I thought the mods were too harsh was when on this post:
On June 10 2010 18:19 Megalisk wrote: Flash has been a Bonjwa since last year.
User was temp banned for this post.
He got a 2-week temp ban for what I thought was a legitimately funny and innocent joke.
It's too bad he got perma-banned because he was largely a benign poster, but... he definitely got sufficient warning for it.
Well, you've got to check the context. And I'm sure that in Megalisk's case, the ban was for a combination of bad posts. The guy had 5 bans/warnings at the time of that post, and after he served his two weeks he went on to rack up about 10 more warnings and bans (took a while to get permed). A good percent of his posts were in all caps / blatantly offensive, so I'm sure there was plenty of garbage for the mod who 2-weeked him to see when he checked post history.
In general bans will scale up as they rack up... posters with terrible histories obviously need some extra incentive to post well; they've earned heavy bans for even minor missteps.
On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote: While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes.
I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased.
Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell.
On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.
His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_-
On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote: We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value.
Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then.
There are no shares because total ownership is in one person's hands or is in the hands of two or more people with an informal agreement. The bottom line, however, is that TL can both make money and has sell value. You don't get a check because the owner isn't willing to pay. It's the same thing with any website: pageviews and active membership create value that either is monetized or can be monetized through advertisement, direct sales, or so on. As a result the viewers add value to the site through their simple viewing of it (pageviews are a large factor in advertising rates) and through adding to the community which in turn attracts more.
I think your perspective on how valuable your click is is way out there. Everything on the site is free, and if the side effect of you enjoying the content of the site is that we have a number to show an advertiser, that is not a direct contribution by you. It is a side effect of your presence. Even if you want to give a monetary value to your click, it is so out of whack with what you get in return that criticizing people for being thankful is really uncool. Your sense of entitlement is pretty sickening from my perspective.
On September 25 2010 11:04 youlijp wrote: I guess the fact that this is a gaming website, the majority of the moderators should be fairly younger than moderators from other forums. So maybe they are less patient or less forgiving as to how people express their ideas.
But it's up to us users with accounts from this website to know that they are the authority in here, and therefore we got to follow their rules.
Not all of us are young... :p
Hear hear.
The source of TeamLiquid's greatness has never come from the number of page hits that it gets (3 years ago, there was only a tiny fraction of the current usership), but from the contribution of its members.
The page hits are great, they help TL fund such things as the SC2 Opens (perhaps someday a TSL 3?)...but not if they are to come at the price of terrible posts, derailed threads, and an erosion of the great community of everybody contributing.
A short time before I was left for Europe, I posted here asking people for advice. Three weeks later, I was crashing at xeofreestyler's house, who i'd never talked to before. As he said "You're TL, so you're family", and it was true. Thats the kind of TL that I want, which is why I fully support the moderators dispensing righteous justice.
On September 25 2010 15:46 Evil_Monkey_ wrote: I got banned for saying Nada is Judas for jumping ship to SC2. I thought that ban was very harsh, but in general the moderating here is good and it's helped TL improve as a site. In the old days it was wayyyy less organized.
haha reading users characterize the behavior that got them banned is so entertaining!
You didn't just call NaDa Judas, you said he was "a bigger Judas than Savior". And you can bet that it was the comparison to Savior, not Judas, that got you the ban. Yet you've left Savior out of your post above...
Tough ban but it was only 2 days. Glad you still have faith in the mods.
On September 25 2010 15:24 matjlav wrote: The only time I can think of when I thought the mods were too harsh was when on this post:
On June 10 2010 18:19 Megalisk wrote: Flash has been a Bonjwa since last year.
User was temp banned for this post.
He got a 2-week temp ban for what I thought was a legitimately funny and innocent joke.
It's too bad he got perma-banned because he was largely a benign poster, but... he definitely got sufficient warning for it.
Well, you've got to check the context. And I'm sure that in Megalisk's case, the ban was for a combination of bad posts. The guy had 5 bans/warnings at the time of that post, and after he served his two weeks he went on to rack up about 10 more warnings and bans (took a while to get permed). A good percent of his posts were in all caps / blatantly offensive, so I'm sure there was plenty of garbage for the mod who 2-weeked him to see when he checked post history.
In general bans will scale up as they rack up... posters with terrible histories obviously need some extra incentive to post well; they've earned heavy bans for even minor missteps.
Lol Nada worse than Savior? Nice "the rest of the story" moment, JWD
For those who are unaware, in a few years time, Mani will be moving on to the Senior TL Tour, where the best and brightest of yesteryear moderate a modified version of the regular TL forums. There, the excitement and glory is all the same, but moderators just work with rules tailored to their very unique needs. Carts are also permitted on the Senior TL Tour.
Additional warning/ban types include (but are not limited to): "Stop posting so fast." "What's that mean?" "Who sent you here?" "Why don't you PM me like you used to?" "I pointed to their profile and the box took me to this screen. Help." and various image macros from Ebaumsworld.
The mods are great but there are just a few people who have been consistently trolling for a long period of time and still aren't banned. Oh well, I guess I can live with that.
The thing that really confuses me is not the stuff that engenders (temp) bans and the like, but the stuff that gets let go. Almost every single thread I read here has posts where either:
a) some one replies in a aggressive manner when its quite clear that they have failed to read the OP / the thread
b) doesnt bother reading the whole thread / threads recent posts before replying e.g. asking when VOD's will be up, or for stream links when the info is in the OP or on the previous page.
The general level of pointless aggression and retarded one-up-man-ship is really sad. So many people seem to feel that their opinion is so important that they must reply, but are too lazy to read the thread properly or at all.
I am pretty sure that in the context of eSports TL has a neutral impact, all the superb content is offset by the impression that most inexperienced players/visitors would obtain by browsing, or even worse believe that this is how you are supposed to behave.
Interesting discussion here, but I think it comes down to the things chill was getting at with the whole "contribute or get out" lines. Look, this thread is 21 pages long, and it's not even a super popular topic. Every single other thread is packed to the gills with worthless, content-less posts that make it pointless or inefficient to try catching up on any thread at all. It takes less than a day for a new popular thread to be in the 10+ pages range. I wish they would ban even more, and view the ability to post here as a privilege easily lost.
On September 25 2010 14:45 tarpman wrote: The preview button is great. I would probably have double the post count I do if the preview button weren't there. I probably would have been banned by now, too. It's always a good idea to review what you just wrote before you post it. Like with everything on the Internet: once it's out there, there's no retracting it.
Long live TL moderation! Release the Kraken!
Dude? you get banned? your one of the few people from TL that I have met who drinks. Your in the clear...I think?
Also, TL needs a mod like rekrul just for the sc2 forum, and the overall happiness of the forum would increase.
On September 26 2010 03:54 Gedrah wrote: Interesting discussion here, but I think it comes down to the things chill was getting at with the whole "contribute or get out" lines. Look, this thread is 21 pages long, and it's not even a super popular topic. Every single other thread is packed to the gills with worthless, content-less posts that make it pointless or inefficient to try catching up on any thread at all. It takes less than a day for a new popular thread to be in the 10+ pages range. I wish they would ban even more, and view the ability to post here as a privilege easily lost.
You are completely right, I've been banned at least two times on TL on previous accounts but that was years ago. I've been here for a long ass time. Since 2004, I think.
Back then, there were no warning or temporary ban systems. The temporary ban system was recently implemented in 2007, if I remember correctly. The warning system is very recent as well.
Honestly, both systems are great at what they do. The only part where I find failure in moderating is the leniency. People are constantly warned. As much as 5 to 10 times. Finally, they are temporary banned for 2 days. They come back and are as big a dick as they were before.
They are warned 5 more times, then temp banned for 1 or 2 weeks. Finally they are banned for 30 days.
All in the course of one year. Where they had plenty of time to become better posters and stop shitting up the forum. Some people should be outright banned, quicker.
On September 26 2010 03:54 Gedrah wrote: Interesting discussion here, but I think it comes down to the things chill was getting at with the whole "contribute or get out" lines. Look, this thread is 21 pages long, and it's not even a super popular topic. Every single other thread is packed to the gills with worthless, content-less posts that make it pointless or inefficient to try catching up on any thread at all. It takes less than a day for a new popular thread to be in the 10+ pages range. I wish they would ban even more, and view the ability to post here as a privilege easily lost.
You are completely right, I've been banned at least two times on TL on previous accounts but that was years ago. I've been here for a long ass time. Since 2004, I think.
Back then, there were no warning or temporary ban systems. The temporary ban system was recently implemented in 2007, if I remember correctly. The warning system is very recent as well.
Honestly, both systems are great at what they do. The only part where I find failure in moderating is the leniency. People are constantly warned. As much as 5 to 10 times. Finally, they are temporary banned for 2 days. They come back and are as big a dick as they were before.
They are warned 5 more times, then temp banned for 1 or 2 weeks. Finally they are banned for 30 days.
All in the course of one year. Where they had plenty of time to become better posters and stop shitting up the forum. Some people should be outright banned, quicker.
I agree. While the end result is the same, I feel like posters like this can have a huge negative effect on the community. Continual low contribution lowers the bar on whats expected. The guy the OP quoted was a great example. His continual low contributions just cause other posters to react in poor ways, and derail threads.
If you see a thread where everyones just shitting around, then the expectations for your own behavior are set a lot lower too. A thread where everyone is serious, and your likely to be more serious as well. A few poor posters can have a much larger effect on the community as a whole beyond just there trash posts, and I think they need to be weeded out quicker.
I guess the fact that this is a gaming website, the majority of the moderators should be fairly younger than moderators from other forums. So maybe they are less patient or less forgiving as to how people express their ideas.
A lot of the moderators on the site are married individuals with families, and usually, the younger moderators tend to be far more lenient. (I'm pretty sure all my 2 week bans have been from Manifesto T_T)
Eh, I think that guy mentioned in the OP kinda deserved it...
But to be honest, I think there is some form of favor in the bannings. Sometimes people have been banned for very minor things (which should have been a warning at most), where other people in the same thread went on to attack others in the post - and they were not banned simply because the mods were in agreement with them. Ironically, the ones who were banned were the ones with differing opinions from the mods...
I've even had it happen to me once. Never even got a warning - just a week ban for expressing my opinion (in a fashion that did not go against any of TL's list of rules).
And while this is going on, theres countless other worthless posts that are let go? Many not even having a valid discussion with people flaming eachother... but others get banned that are expressing legitimate opinons? Doesnt make much sense.
But w/e, what are you going to do? I guess you cant have more bans without people getting banned who dont deserve it, or less people that dont deserve it getting banned w/o less overall bans.
On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote: While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes.
I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased.
Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell.
On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.
His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_-
On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote: We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value.
Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then.
There are no shares because total ownership is in one person's hands or is in the hands of two or more people with an informal agreement. The bottom line, however, is that TL can both make money and has sell value. You don't get a check because the owner isn't willing to pay. It's the same thing with any website: pageviews and active membership create value that either is monetized or can be monetized through advertisement, direct sales, or so on. As a result the viewers add value to the site through their simple viewing of it (pageviews are a large factor in advertising rates) and through adding to the community which in turn attracts more.
I think your perspective on how valuable your click is is way out there. Everything on the site is free, and if the side effect of you enjoying the content of the site is that we have a number to show an advertiser, that is not a direct contribution by you. It is a side effect of your presence. Even if you want to give a monetary value to your click, it is so out of whack with what you get in return that criticizing people for being thankful is really uncool. Your sense of entitlement is pretty sickening from my perspective.
On September 25 2010 11:04 youlijp wrote: I guess the fact that this is a gaming website, the majority of the moderators should be fairly younger than moderators from other forums. So maybe they are less patient or less forgiving as to how people express their ideas.
But it's up to us users with accounts from this website to know that they are the authority in here, and therefore we got to follow their rules.
Not all of us are young... :p
Business is business.
The bottom line is this:
1. TL will produce a profit for its owner, whether it has to this date or whether it will come in the future. Nazgul will make money from TL. The money that he makes will/has come from a variety of methods, whether direct sales (e.g. having a TL store), selling advertisements, or indirectly through gathering a userbase that can be monetized easily through another method, like shuttling it to LP and collecting rakeback %, lesson commissions, advertisements there, direct sales there, and the many many other ways that LP makes a profit.
2. Without users, the site would make no profit. A decrease in users will almost certainly decrease profit; an increase will increase it.
3. The profit is thus created as a result of monetization of the site directly and indirectly, which requires a userbase, which requires content.
4. Many people create content, but a lot of the hard stuff is done by Nazgul / others who are not considered part of the userbase.
5. This forms a mutually beneficial relationship for both parties: the owner makes profit off monetizing the userbase and the users enjoy the community and services (ie TLPD) produced by the owner.
6. Therefore the idea that the users as a whole are in a submissive place to the owner is incorrect: both are at the mercy of the other. No users, no profit and no point in having content even for non-profit purposes as nobody enjoys it; no site done by owner, no content for users to enjoy.
The point I was trying to correct was someone who contradicted point #6 by suggesting that users should just be happy with what they have and be quiet about it, as the site is putting in so much effort in creating content (TLPD, PowerRank, etc). As I stated above, it's a mutually beneficial relationship: while users should be happy content producers create content, the owner should be happy that users come here, and so users shouldn't feel that they are being done a favor: they are returning the favor, consciously or not, by being users. The owner is getting money in return. It's not about being entitled, it's about the acknowledgment of a mutually beneficial relationship in which both sides gain.
That's a business interpretation of the site. Don't read too much into it beyond what I wrote. It doesn't mean that Nazgul created the site to make money, or that he is trying to monetize it as much as he can. It doesn't mean that people create content here to make money. It doesn't mean that users are conscious they are creating a profit for the owner. It doesn't mean that any one user being banned/leaving the site would have any noticeable effect on the site or the balance book. But, unless one of my premises is wrong, it is a correct (though specifically business) view of TL.
On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote: While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes.
I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased.
Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell.
On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.
His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_-
On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote: We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value.
Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then.
There are no shares because total ownership is in one person's hands or is in the hands of two or more people with an informal agreement. The bottom line, however, is that TL can both make money and has sell value. You don't get a check because the owner isn't willing to pay. It's the same thing with any website: pageviews and active membership create value that either is monetized or can be monetized through advertisement, direct sales, or so on. As a result the viewers add value to the site through their simple viewing of it (pageviews are a large factor in advertising rates) and through adding to the community which in turn attracts more.
I think your perspective on how valuable your click is is way out there. Everything on the site is free, and if the side effect of you enjoying the content of the site is that we have a number to show an advertiser, that is not a direct contribution by you. It is a side effect of your presence. Even if you want to give a monetary value to your click, it is so out of whack with what you get in return that criticizing people for being thankful is really uncool. Your sense of entitlement is pretty sickening from my perspective.
On September 25 2010 11:04 youlijp wrote: I guess the fact that this is a gaming website, the majority of the moderators should be fairly younger than moderators from other forums. So maybe they are less patient or less forgiving as to how people express their ideas.
But it's up to us users with accounts from this website to know that they are the authority in here, and therefore we got to follow their rules.
Not all of us are young... :p
Business is business. What I said is a more factually correct interpretation of teamliquid and its users than the person that I was responding to.
And yes, me being a pageview is a direct contribution by me. It increases the financial value of the site, whether that is monetized directly, indirectly, now or later. Of course I was talking about the users in general, not just myself.
Not necessarily, by posting like shit you detract from the overall value of this site for other users, and can potentially make other users leave. Many longtime users have already stopped browsing TL due to the influx of SC2 players who post like crap.
On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote: While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes.
I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased.
Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell.
On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.
His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_-
On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote: We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value.
Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then.
There are no shares because total ownership is in one person's hands or is in the hands of two or more people with an informal agreement. The bottom line, however, is that TL can both make money and has sell value. You don't get a check because the owner isn't willing to pay. It's the same thing with any website: pageviews and active membership create value that either is monetized or can be monetized through advertisement, direct sales, or so on. As a result the viewers add value to the site through their simple viewing of it (pageviews are a large factor in advertising rates) and through adding to the community which in turn attracts more.
I think your perspective on how valuable your click is is way out there. Everything on the site is free, and if the side effect of you enjoying the content of the site is that we have a number to show an advertiser, that is not a direct contribution by you. It is a side effect of your presence. Even if you want to give a monetary value to your click, it is so out of whack with what you get in return that criticizing people for being thankful is really uncool. Your sense of entitlement is pretty sickening from my perspective.
On September 25 2010 11:04 youlijp wrote: I guess the fact that this is a gaming website, the majority of the moderators should be fairly younger than moderators from other forums. So maybe they are less patient or less forgiving as to how people express their ideas.
But it's up to us users with accounts from this website to know that they are the authority in here, and therefore we got to follow their rules.
Not all of us are young... :p
Business is business. What I said is a more factually correct interpretation of teamliquid and its users than the person that I was responding to.
And yes, me being a pageview is a direct contribution by me. It increases the financial value of the site, whether that is monetized directly, indirectly, now or later. Of course I was talking about the users in general, not just myself.
Not necessarily, by posting like shit you detract from the overall value of this site for other users, and can potentially make other users leave. Many longtime users have already stopped browsing TL due to the influx of SC2 players who post like crap.
True, but I was talking about users in general, not specifically myself, and I don't post like shit anyway. That is Manifesto's spin of what I was saying.
On September 26 2010 05:30 Spyridon wrote: Eh, I think that guy mentioned in the OP kinda deserved it...
But to be honest, I think there is some form of favor in the bannings. Sometimes people have been banned for very minor things (which should have been a warning at most), where other people in the same thread went on to attack others in the post - and they were not banned simply because the mods were in agreement with them. Ironically, the ones who were banned were the ones with differing opinions from the mods...
I've even had it happen to me once. Never even got a warning - just a week ban for expressing my opinion (in a fashion that did not go against any of TL's list of rules).
And while this is going on, theres countless other worthless posts that are let go? Many not even having a valid discussion with people flaming eachother... but others get banned that are expressing legitimate opinons? Doesnt make much sense.
But w/e, what are you going to do? I guess you cant have more bans without people getting banned who dont deserve it, or less people that dont deserve it getting banned w/o less overall bans.
Please post some evidence. I feel like a lot of time people make general statements and once other people get to look at exactly what it was that caused the ban and also the context, the bans are justified. Also, a lot of people complain, hey how come I got banned and he didn't? Sometimes it just comes down to the fact that the mod saw your post and not his. They're not perfect gods who see all and know all. Personally, I think banning has been more lax recently. I see people getting warning A LOT when previously I feel like they would have been temp banned outright.
On September 26 2010 05:30 Spyridon wrote: Eh, I think that guy mentioned in the OP kinda deserved it...
But to be honest, I think there is some form of favor in the bannings. Sometimes people have been banned for very minor things (which should have been a warning at most), where other people in the same thread went on to attack others in the post - and they were not banned simply because the mods were in agreement with them. Ironically, the ones who were banned were the ones with differing opinions from the mods...
I've even had it happen to me once. Never even got a warning - just a week ban for expressing my opinion (in a fashion that did not go against any of TL's list of rules).
And while this is going on, theres countless other worthless posts that are let go? Many not even having a valid discussion with people flaming eachother... but others get banned that are expressing legitimate opinons? Doesnt make much sense.
But w/e, what are you going to do? I guess you cant have more bans without people getting banned who dont deserve it, or less people that dont deserve it getting banned w/o less overall bans.
Can you substantiate these claims by providing some evidence? Usually more goes into bans/warnings than is publicly viewable... like history, messages etc... this has all already been discussed in this thread.
I'm starting to get sick of threads like these... not because nobody should be allowed to talk about this stuff, but rather because I'm finding post after post of people complaining how they or their friends were mistreated and when you actually investigate 9/10 times they weren't.
On September 26 2010 05:30 Spyridon wrote: Eh, I think that guy mentioned in the OP kinda deserved it...
But to be honest, I think there is some form of favor in the bannings. Sometimes people have been banned for very minor things (which should have been a warning at most), where other people in the same thread went on to attack others in the post - and they were not banned simply because the mods were in agreement with them. Ironically, the ones who were banned were the ones with differing opinions from the mods...
I've even had it happen to me once. Never even got a warning - just a week ban for expressing my opinion (in a fashion that did not go against any of TL's list of rules).
And while this is going on, theres countless other worthless posts that are let go? Many not even having a valid discussion with people flaming eachother... but others get banned that are expressing legitimate opinons? Doesnt make much sense.
But w/e, what are you going to do? I guess you cant have more bans without people getting banned who dont deserve it, or less people that dont deserve it getting banned w/o less overall bans.
Can you substantiate these claims by providing some evidence? Usually more goes into bans/warnings than is publicly viewable... like history, messages etc... this has all already been discussed in this thread.
I'm starting to get sick of threads like these... not because nobody should be allowed to talk about this stuff, but rather because I'm finding post after post of people complaining how they or their friends were mistreated and when you actually investigate 9/10 times they weren't.
While I have never seen a warning/ban I disagreed with, I did raise an eyebrow in a few threads where hundreds of people were making bad posts and only some of them had red text at the bottom. It seems like when is an excessive amount of bad posts in a long thread, mods get tired of sending out warnings so they stop and just let people get away with it. What may look bad to someone reading the thread is that the few posts that DO get warned/banned are not any worse than the crappy posts that don't have red text at the bottom.
If you need an example, there was one thread where a bronze player was making observations on the bronze league metagame. Many people, including some very good posters, did not read the thread properly and made polite posts trying to be helpful, and got warned for their reading comprehension. That's fair game for mods, since they were missing the point of the thread. However, there were also several posts that were just as off topic, yet also had an incredibly condescending/BM tone on top of that, but did not get warned/banned. I think what's happening is that mods occasionally miss a crappy post, making people think such posting quality is acceptable on teamliquid.
On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote: While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes.
I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased.
Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell.
On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.
His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_-
On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote: We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value.
Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then.
There are no shares because total ownership is in one person's hands or is in the hands of two or more people with an informal agreement. The bottom line, however, is that TL can both make money and has sell value. You don't get a check because the owner isn't willing to pay. It's the same thing with any website: pageviews and active membership create value that either is monetized or can be monetized through advertisement, direct sales, or so on. As a result the viewers add value to the site through their simple viewing of it (pageviews are a large factor in advertising rates) and through adding to the community which in turn attracts more.
I think your perspective on how valuable your click is is way out there. Everything on the site is free, and if the side effect of you enjoying the content of the site is that we have a number to show an advertiser, that is not a direct contribution by you. It is a side effect of your presence. Even if you want to give a monetary value to your click, it is so out of whack with what you get in return that criticizing people for being thankful is really uncool. Your sense of entitlement is pretty sickening from my perspective.
On September 25 2010 11:04 youlijp wrote: I guess the fact that this is a gaming website, the majority of the moderators should be fairly younger than moderators from other forums. So maybe they are less patient or less forgiving as to how people express their ideas.
But it's up to us users with accounts from this website to know that they are the authority in here, and therefore we got to follow their rules.
Not all of us are young... :p
Business is business.
The bottom line is this:
1. TL will produce a profit for its owner, whether it has to this date or whether it will come in the future. Nazgul will make money from TL. The money that he makes will/has come from a variety of methods, whether direct sales (e.g. having a TL store), selling advertisements, or indirectly through gathering a userbase that can be monetized easily through another method, like shuttling it to LP and collecting rakeback %, lesson commissions, advertisements there, direct sales there, and the many many other ways that LP makes a profit.
2. Without users, the site would make no profit. A decrease in users will almost certainly decrease profit; an increase will increase it.
3. The profit is thus created as a result of monetization of the site directly and indirectly, which requires a userbase, which requires content.
4. Many people create content, but a lot of the hard stuff is done by Nazgul / others who are not considered part of the userbase.
5. This forms a mutually beneficial relationship for both parties: the owner makes profit off monetizing the userbase and the users enjoy the community and services (ie TLPD) produced by the owner.
6. Therefore the idea that the users as a whole are in a submissive place to the owner is incorrect: both are at the mercy of the other. No users, no profit and no point in having content even for non-profit purposes as nobody enjoys it; no site done by owner, no content for users to enjoy.
The point I was trying to correct was someone who contradicted point #6 by suggesting that users should just be happy with what they have and be quiet about it, as the site is putting in so much effort in creating content (TLPD, PowerRank, etc). As I stated above, it's a mutually beneficial relationship: while users should be happy content producers create content, the owner should be happy that users come here, and so users shouldn't feel that they are being done a favor: they are returning the favor, consciously or not, by being users. The owner is getting money in return. It's not about being entitled, it's about the acknowledgment of a mutually beneficial relationship in which both sides gain.
That's a business interpretation of the site. Don't read too much into it beyond what I wrote. It doesn't mean that Nazgul created the site to make money, or that he is trying to monetize it as much as he can. It doesn't mean that people create content here to make money. It doesn't mean that users are conscious they are creating a profit for the owner. It doesn't mean that any one user being banned/leaving the site would have any noticeable effect on the site or the balance book. But, unless one of my premises is wrong, it is a correct (though specifically business) view of TL.
This is one of the silliest derailments I've seen in some time.
The point I was trying to correct was someone who contradicted point #6 by suggesting that users should just be happy with what they have and be quiet about it
I think the person who said that clarified their meaning you're taking their words too literally, but absolutely users should speak up. I think criticism is welcome and most importantly necessary for us to keep TL on the path it's been going. We make mistakes and things need to be improved. No one should shy away from vocalizing those thoughts simply because the good outweighs the bad. I hope this seals your discussion.
On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote: While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes.
I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased.
Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell.
On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.
His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_-
On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote: We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value.
Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then.
There are no shares because total ownership is in one person's hands or is in the hands of two or more people with an informal agreement. The bottom line, however, is that TL can both make money and has sell value. You don't get a check because the owner isn't willing to pay. It's the same thing with any website: pageviews and active membership create value that either is monetized or can be monetized through advertisement, direct sales, or so on. As a result the viewers add value to the site through their simple viewing of it (pageviews are a large factor in advertising rates) and through adding to the community which in turn attracts more.
I think your perspective on how valuable your click is is way out there. Everything on the site is free, and if the side effect of you enjoying the content of the site is that we have a number to show an advertiser, that is not a direct contribution by you. It is a side effect of your presence. Even if you want to give a monetary value to your click, it is so out of whack with what you get in return that criticizing people for being thankful is really uncool. Your sense of entitlement is pretty sickening from my perspective.
On September 25 2010 11:04 youlijp wrote: I guess the fact that this is a gaming website, the majority of the moderators should be fairly younger than moderators from other forums. So maybe they are less patient or less forgiving as to how people express their ideas.
But it's up to us users with accounts from this website to know that they are the authority in here, and therefore we got to follow their rules.
Not all of us are young... :p
Business is business.
The bottom line is this:
1. TL will produce a profit for its owner, whether it has to this date or whether it will come in the future. Nazgul will make money from TL. The money that he makes will/has come from a variety of methods, whether direct sales (e.g. having a TL store), selling advertisements, or indirectly through gathering a userbase that can be monetized easily through another method, like shuttling it to LP and collecting rakeback %, lesson commissions, advertisements there, direct sales there, and the many many other ways that LP makes a profit.
2. Without users, the site would make no profit. A decrease in users will almost certainly decrease profit; an increase will increase it.
3. The profit is thus created as a result of monetization of the site directly and indirectly, which requires a userbase, which requires content.
4. Many people create content, but a lot of the hard stuff is done by Nazgul / others who are not considered part of the userbase.
5. This forms a mutually beneficial relationship for both parties: the owner makes profit off monetizing the userbase and the users enjoy the community and services (ie TLPD) produced by the owner.
6. Therefore the idea that the users as a whole are in a submissive place to the owner is incorrect: both are at the mercy of the other. No users, no profit and no point in having content even for non-profit purposes as nobody enjoys it; no site done by owner, no content for users to enjoy.
The point I was trying to correct was someone who contradicted point #6 by suggesting that users should just be happy with what they have and be quiet about it, as the site is putting in so much effort in creating content (TLPD, PowerRank, etc). As I stated above, it's a mutually beneficial relationship: while users should be happy content producers create content, the owner should be happy that users come here, and so users shouldn't feel that they are being done a favor: they are returning the favor, consciously or not, by being users. The owner is getting money in return. It's not about being entitled, it's about the acknowledgment of a mutually beneficial relationship in which both sides gain.
That's a business interpretation of the site. Don't read too much into it beyond what I wrote. It doesn't mean that Nazgul created the site to make money, or that he is trying to monetize it as much as he can. It doesn't mean that people create content here to make money. It doesn't mean that users are conscious they are creating a profit for the owner. It doesn't mean that any one user being banned/leaving the site would have any noticeable effect on the site or the balance book. But, unless one of my premises is wrong, it is a correct (though specifically business) view of TL.
This is one of the silliest derailments I've seen in some time.
The point I was trying to correct was someone who contradicted point #6 by suggesting that users should just be happy with what they have and be quiet about it
I think the person who said that clarified their meaning you're taking their words too literally, but absolutely users should speak up. I think criticism is welcome and most importantly necessary for us to keep TL on the path it's been going. We make mistakes and things need to be improved. No one should shy away from vocalizing those thoughts simply because the good outweighs the bad. I hope this seals your discussion.
The only reason I was continuing that "derailment" was because it was constantly being disagreed with. I agree with your general conclusion, though, and am finished with it, though I suspect you will find that it is not as sealed as you think.
On September 26 2010 05:30 Spyridon wrote: Eh, I think that guy mentioned in the OP kinda deserved it...
But to be honest, I think there is some form of favor in the bannings. Sometimes people have been banned for very minor things (which should have been a warning at most), where other people in the same thread went on to attack others in the post - and they were not banned simply because the mods were in agreement with them. Ironically, the ones who were banned were the ones with differing opinions from the mods...
I've even had it happen to me once. Never even got a warning - just a week ban for expressing my opinion (in a fashion that did not go against any of TL's list of rules).
And while this is going on, theres countless other worthless posts that are let go? Many not even having a valid discussion with people flaming eachother... but others get banned that are expressing legitimate opinons? Doesnt make much sense.
But w/e, what are you going to do? I guess you cant have more bans without people getting banned who dont deserve it, or less people that dont deserve it getting banned w/o less overall bans.
Can you substantiate these claims by providing some evidence? Usually more goes into bans/warnings than is publicly viewable... like history, messages etc... this has all already been discussed in this thread.
I'm starting to get sick of threads like these... not because nobody should be allowed to talk about this stuff, but rather because I'm finding post after post of people complaining how they or their friends were mistreated and when you actually investigate 9/10 times they weren't.
While I have never seen a warning/ban I disagreed with, I did raise an eyebrow in a few threads where hundreds of people were making bad posts and only some of them had red text at the bottom. It seems like when is an excessive amount of bad posts in a long thread, mods get tired of sending out warnings so they stop and just let people get away with it. What may look bad to someone reading the thread is that the few posts that DO get warned/banned are not any worse than the crappy posts that don't have red text at the bottom.
If you need an example, there was one thread where a bronze player was making observations on the bronze league metagame. Many people, including some very good posters, did not read the thread properly and made polite posts trying to be helpful, and got warned for their reading comprehension. That's fair game for mods, since they were missing the point of the thread. However, there were also several posts that were just as off topic, yet also had an incredibly condescending/BM tone on top of that, but did not get warned/banned. I think what's happening is that mods occasionally miss a crappy post, making people think such posting quality is acceptable on teamliquid.
Yeah that is definitely an issue sometime. It's virtually impossible to moderate every post the same way. Obviously a goal is to be consistent.
But you still did the very thing that bothers me... you made a cursory reference to some example of poor moderation rather than actually providing the evidence to support it. I'm not saying you can't find an example of someone getting warned/banned or not warned/banned in a bad fashion, but most of the time when people claim they have found such examples they really haven't. If you think improvement is necessary then link to the exact post in question. Even if you don't want to do it for this example you are trying to show, then keep it in mind for the future.
On September 26 2010 03:58 Sanguinarius wrote: This is TLs forum, not yours.
What does that even mean? TL is nothing more than the sum of its members. The only reason TL exists is because of the people that are part of it.
That argument works pretty well for a government. There's no point to a government without civilians, and the civilians are ultimately the most important group in the country.
Teamliquid started as the forums of the Liquid members' website which were opened up to the public. A lot has been added since then but this is still theoretically the forums associated with the website owned by the liquid organization. It is not owned by its users. If you want to know who really owns it you can look it up very easily, and they ultimately choose how the site gets used.
I wish they were even stricter. These are some of the best run forums I've ever been apart of and they could still use some improvement.
Aside from topics made in a 'wasteland-esque' sub board, posts etc. should be intelligent and add to the conversation.
If you want to see what happens when modding take a backseat try and go read the sherdog forums. I swear you'll become retarded after 5 minutes of exposure.
I've been banned once (link) and I felt that was undeserved. That was more of a case of a moderator disliking a certain topic and asking people not to post about it. What annoyed me most though, was that when I got banned not only did I have to stop posting for two days (not too bad), I was also directed to some Disney website when I tried to log in. (I didn't think it was funny, and in my opinion policy wise it's bad to insult people you ban, since while generally they will not agree with the ban anyway, having these stupid jokes doesn't encourage them to reflect on their behaviour as not being mature enough )
You are our guests. We will make all attempts to treat everyone with due respect and to accommodate everyone's wishes as far as reasonably possible. But, this is a private site. We are not a "for profit" enterprise. We are not funded by any governments. This means we run the site the way we see fit. We are not obligated to observe anyone's notions of "free speech" or even "fairness." We try of course, and that's why we're consistently considered one of the best gaming sites on the web, and you are always free to give us suggestions (Website Feedback Forum). But, we have our limits. If we don't like you, we simply IP ban you. If we're really pissed off, then we IP ban you AND nuke every single post you've uploaded to the site - ever. It will be as if you had never existed here. This is our house. You've been warned.
On September 26 2010 07:11 Mothxal wrote: I've been banned once (link) and I felt that was undeserved. That was more of a case of a moderator disliking a certain topic and asking people not to post about it. What annoyed me most though, was that when I got banned not only did I have to stop posting for two days (not too bad), I was also directed to some Disney website when I tried to log in. (I didn't think it was funny, and in my opinion policy wise it's bad to insult people you ban, since while generally they will not agree with the ban anyway, having these stupid jokes doesn't encourage them to reflect on their behaviour as not being mature enough )
On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote: While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes.
I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased.
Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell.
On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.
His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_-
On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote: We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value.
Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then.
There are no shares because total ownership is in one person's hands or is in the hands of two or more people with an informal agreement. The bottom line, however, is that TL can both make money and has sell value. You don't get a check because the owner isn't willing to pay. It's the same thing with any website: pageviews and active membership create value that either is monetized or can be monetized through advertisement, direct sales, or so on. As a result the viewers add value to the site through their simple viewing of it (pageviews are a large factor in advertising rates) and through adding to the community which in turn attracts more.
I think your perspective on how valuable your click is is way out there. Everything on the site is free, and if the side effect of you enjoying the content of the site is that we have a number to show an advertiser, that is not a direct contribution by you. It is a side effect of your presence. Even if you want to give a monetary value to your click, it is so out of whack with what you get in return that criticizing people for being thankful is really uncool. Your sense of entitlement is pretty sickening from my perspective.
On September 25 2010 11:04 youlijp wrote: I guess the fact that this is a gaming website, the majority of the moderators should be fairly younger than moderators from other forums. So maybe they are less patient or less forgiving as to how people express their ideas.
But it's up to us users with accounts from this website to know that they are the authority in here, and therefore we got to follow their rules.
Not all of us are young... :p
Business is business.
The bottom line is this:
1. TL will produce a profit for its owner, whether it has to this date or whether it will come in the future. Nazgul will make money from TL. The money that he makes will/has come from a variety of methods, whether direct sales (e.g. having a TL store), selling advertisements, or indirectly through gathering a userbase that can be monetized easily through another method, like shuttling it to LP and collecting rakeback %, lesson commissions, advertisements there, direct sales there, and the many many other ways that LP makes a profit.
2. Without users, the site would make no profit. A decrease in users will almost certainly decrease profit; an increase will increase it.
3. The profit is thus created as a result of monetization of the site directly and indirectly, which requires a userbase, which requires content.
4. Many people create content, but a lot of the hard stuff is done by Nazgul / others who are not considered part of the userbase.
5. This forms a mutually beneficial relationship for both parties: the owner makes profit off monetizing the userbase and the users enjoy the community and services (ie TLPD) produced by the owner.
6. Therefore the idea that the users as a whole are in a submissive place to the owner is incorrect: both are at the mercy of the other. No users, no profit and no point in having content even for non-profit purposes as nobody enjoys it; no site done by owner, no content for users to enjoy.
The point I was trying to correct was someone who contradicted point #6 by suggesting that users should just be happy with what they have and be quiet about it, as the site is putting in so much effort in creating content (TLPD, PowerRank, etc). As I stated above, it's a mutually beneficial relationship: while users should be happy content producers create content, the owner should be happy that users come here, and so users shouldn't feel that they are being done a favor: they are returning the favor, consciously or not, by being users. The owner is getting money in return. It's not about being entitled, it's about the acknowledgment of a mutually beneficial relationship in which both sides gain.
That's a business interpretation of the site. Don't read too much into it beyond what I wrote. It doesn't mean that Nazgul created the site to make money, or that he is trying to monetize it as much as he can. It doesn't mean that people create content here to make money. It doesn't mean that users are conscious they are creating a profit for the owner. It doesn't mean that any one user being banned/leaving the site would have any noticeable effect on the site or the balance book. But, unless one of my premises is wrong, it is a correct (though specifically business) view of TL.
This is one of the silliest derailments I've seen in some time.
The point I was trying to correct was someone who contradicted point #6 by suggesting that users should just be happy with what they have and be quiet about it
I think the person who said that clarified their meaning you're taking their words too literally, but absolutely users should speak up. I think criticism is welcome and most importantly necessary for us to keep TL on the path it's been going. We make mistakes and things need to be improved. No one should shy away from vocalizing those thoughts simply because the good outweighs the bad. I hope this seals your discussion.
The only reason I was continuing that "derailment" was because it was constantly being disagreed with. I agree with your general conclusion, though, and am finished with it, though I suspect you will find that it is not as sealed as you think.
That would be fine if you had no alternate motive, but I feel that you have a personal issue with moderation and Manifesto in particular. As many users may not know, he banned you for one week on September 10 for this post that you made:
On September 10 2010 04:58 cz wrote: Only at the mods and the really high post count people who think they are gods and act like douchebags knowing that they won't face any repercussions. Meanwhile everyone has to be nice in replying to the troll-laced, down-syndrome induced, spastic post lest they be banned.
tl;dr Mods/high post count "vets" are the most rude and biggest trolls on the site but get away with it because TL is an awkward hierarchy instead of a community with integrity and uniformly enforced rules
User was temp banned for this post.
It's one thing to suggest improvements and say that site and users should appreciate each other, it's another to call all the staff here the "most rude douchebags." I do not feel that is a fair assessment of us.
Nowhere have we suggested that users should just be happy with what we give them, every day we try to look for ways to make TL better. We encourage feedback. If you feel this is just to generate more users and more money, that is your opinion. But I think that view is overly cynical. Of course TL would like to make more money, if only to compensate our hard working staff. But if it was only about that, the site would have sold out long ago. I know staff do what we do because we enjoy it. We enjoy building something worthwhile, and it's rewarding by itself. I feel that TL is more a community of peers rather than a Starcraft Walmart trying to attract customers.
I've never been warned (On this account), granted I've been banned like 3 times I believe, but this was years ago I know full well I was out of line and being a troll. TL.net is actually a really great community for it, shit posters, and trolls don't last very long around here. I quite enjoy using this site, and if you follow the rules you'll be fine. I'm sure people have always said the quote in the OP was very ban/warn worthy so I won't even bother with it.
I won't lie though I've seen people banned for things they should have been banned for but most of those bans were filed by Rekrul who was a notorious dick when it came to moderation rofl. But whatever I suppose. The community doesn't pay for the site, even though we may be the reason this site is so successful but we're a dime a dozen, and very replaceable.
On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote: While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes.
I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased.
Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell.
On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.
His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_-
On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote: We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value.
Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then.
There are no shares because total ownership is in one person's hands or is in the hands of two or more people with an informal agreement. The bottom line, however, is that TL can both make money and has sell value. You don't get a check because the owner isn't willing to pay. It's the same thing with any website: pageviews and active membership create value that either is monetized or can be monetized through advertisement, direct sales, or so on. As a result the viewers add value to the site through their simple viewing of it (pageviews are a large factor in advertising rates) and through adding to the community which in turn attracts more.
I think your perspective on how valuable your click is is way out there. Everything on the site is free, and if the side effect of you enjoying the content of the site is that we have a number to show an advertiser, that is not a direct contribution by you. It is a side effect of your presence. Even if you want to give a monetary value to your click, it is so out of whack with what you get in return that criticizing people for being thankful is really uncool. Your sense of entitlement is pretty sickening from my perspective.
On September 25 2010 11:04 youlijp wrote: I guess the fact that this is a gaming website, the majority of the moderators should be fairly younger than moderators from other forums. So maybe they are less patient or less forgiving as to how people express their ideas.
But it's up to us users with accounts from this website to know that they are the authority in here, and therefore we got to follow their rules.
Not all of us are young... :p
Business is business.
The bottom line is this:
1. TL will produce a profit for its owner, whether it has to this date or whether it will come in the future. Nazgul will make money from TL. The money that he makes will/has come from a variety of methods, whether direct sales (e.g. having a TL store), selling advertisements, or indirectly through gathering a userbase that can be monetized easily through another method, like shuttling it to LP and collecting rakeback %, lesson commissions, advertisements there, direct sales there, and the many many other ways that LP makes a profit.
2. Without users, the site would make no profit. A decrease in users will almost certainly decrease profit; an increase will increase it.
3. The profit is thus created as a result of monetization of the site directly and indirectly, which requires a userbase, which requires content.
4. Many people create content, but a lot of the hard stuff is done by Nazgul / others who are not considered part of the userbase.
5. This forms a mutually beneficial relationship for both parties: the owner makes profit off monetizing the userbase and the users enjoy the community and services (ie TLPD) produced by the owner.
6. Therefore the idea that the users as a whole are in a submissive place to the owner is incorrect: both are at the mercy of the other. No users, no profit and no point in having content even for non-profit purposes as nobody enjoys it; no site done by owner, no content for users to enjoy.
The point I was trying to correct was someone who contradicted point #6 by suggesting that users should just be happy with what they have and be quiet about it, as the site is putting in so much effort in creating content (TLPD, PowerRank, etc). As I stated above, it's a mutually beneficial relationship: while users should be happy content producers create content, the owner should be happy that users come here, and so users shouldn't feel that they are being done a favor: they are returning the favor, consciously or not, by being users. The owner is getting money in return. It's not about being entitled, it's about the acknowledgment of a mutually beneficial relationship in which both sides gain.
That's a business interpretation of the site. Don't read too much into it beyond what I wrote. It doesn't mean that Nazgul created the site to make money, or that he is trying to monetize it as much as he can. It doesn't mean that people create content here to make money. It doesn't mean that users are conscious they are creating a profit for the owner. It doesn't mean that any one user being banned/leaving the site would have any noticeable effect on the site or the balance book. But, unless one of my premises is wrong, it is a correct (though specifically business) view of TL.
This is one of the silliest derailments I've seen in some time.
The point I was trying to correct was someone who contradicted point #6 by suggesting that users should just be happy with what they have and be quiet about it
I think the person who said that clarified their meaning you're taking their words too literally, but absolutely users should speak up. I think criticism is welcome and most importantly necessary for us to keep TL on the path it's been going. We make mistakes and things need to be improved. No one should shy away from vocalizing those thoughts simply because the good outweighs the bad. I hope this seals your discussion.
The only reason I was continuing that "derailment" was because it was constantly being disagreed with. I agree with your general conclusion, though, and am finished with it, though I suspect you will find that it is not as sealed as you think.
That would be fine if you had no alternate motive, but I feel that you have a personal issue with moderation and Manifesto in particular. As many users may not know, he banned you for one week on September 10 for this post that you made: Thread: Ever had the urge to just lose it on TL?
On September 10 2010 04:58 cz wrote: Only at the mods and the really high post count people who think they are gods and act like douchebags knowing that they won't face any repercussions. Meanwhile everyone has to be nice in replying to the troll-laced, down-syndrome induced, spastic post lest they be banned.
tl;dr Mods/high post count "vets" are the most rude and biggest trolls on the site but get away with it because TL is an awkward hierarchy instead of a community with integrity and uniformly enforced rules
User was temp banned for this post.
It's hard to take you seriously about community and staff respecting each other when you personally feel that our staff are the "most rude douchebags."
Nowhere have we suggested that users should just be happy with what we give them, every day we try to look for ways to make TL better. We encourage feedback. Whether you feel this is just to generate money for some faceless owner, that is your opinion. But I think that view is overly cynical. Of course TL would like to make more money, but if it was only about that, the site would have sold out long ago. I know staff do what we do because we enjoy it. We enjoy building something worthwhile, and it's rewarding by itself. I feel that TL is more a community of peers rather than a Starcraft Walmart trying to attract customers.
That quote reflects an exaggerated view of my thoughts on moderation here; it's a single post. It is taken out of context, though: the entire thread (actually a blog) was in that tone. I thought it was fair in context of the blog, Manifesto disagreed, I ate a ban. I took the ban, decided I enjoyed the site more than I was willing to continue to make my views made about moderation, and moved on.
With that said, none of that influenced what I've said in this thread. I never commented on my own views on moderation in this thread, nor have I gone after any of the mods. My posts concern the relationship between users and content producers (ownership) in the business that TL is, whether purposefully or not. Whether or not you take me seriously is up to you, but my own views don't take away from the truth (or lack thereof) of my arguments. To suggest so would just be an ad hominem.
On September 26 2010 07:11 Mothxal wrote: I've been banned once (link) and I felt that was undeserved. That was more of a case of a moderator disliking a certain topic and asking people not to post about it. What annoyed me most though, was that when I got banned not only did I have to stop posting for two days (not too bad), I was also directed to some Disney website when I tried to log in. (I didn't think it was funny, and in my opinion policy wise it's bad to insult people you ban, since while generally they will not agree with the ban anyway, having these stupid jokes doesn't encourage them to reflect on their behaviour as not being mature enough )
Might be. It's still one of those features deeply rooted in TL's past as a place for the in-crowd where things were just as much about rivalries and alpha male posturing as for discussion. Imagine that feature wasn't there, and now try to convince your fellow moderators to implement it.
Alot of the banning isn't justified such as my old account got banned for the name, a mod PM'd me and told me to get back to him in a day with a new name or I'll get banned, I did, nothing happened for a week than I log in and i'm banned, not even temp banned just banned. But on the other hand the very strict manner in which they conduct really discourages trolling and alot of flamewars, your example, although the guy shouldn't get banned for that if they let that go on it snowballs into a huge flamewar, there's postivies and negatives, negatives alot of the time areare peolpe too afriad to speak there mind if they disagree with a thread for fear of looking like a troll or getting banned
"Come on guys... Idra isnt god... he gonna qq like every other zerg player because they didnt receive buff..."
User was warned for this post
User was temp banned for this post.
So now the question I am raising here is "Is TL a little too strict on what can or can't be said on the forums?"
The example I provided is someone who in obvious disagreement and he has expressed that by saying "Idra isn't god." Yet, this is ban worthy? I'm wondering why it is so easy to get temp banned on TL.
Well, just a thought. Hopefully I don't get banned for this post.
tbh I think they go easy on a lot of people (maybe myself included)
I know one particular instance where me(the op) intended for a certain point, but due to the lack of quality responses the thread gets closed, as opposed to trying to steer the posts to the meaning of the OP. Example:
I really felt I learned alot from his speech, and many of his approaches could be applied to starcraft.
However, it turned into a "mythbusters suck/rocks" thread, which clearly wasn't my point. The mods ended up closing the thread. I felt punished for trying to share something with my fellow gamers, but a few couldn't resist to take the thread offtopic.
Overall though, the mods here are excellent. I enjoy being here, and can't wait until teamliquid expands!
It's really funny to see how people confuse TL.net's system with democracy, when the main difference is that TL.net's system actually works and democracy doesn't.
TL is awesome because people get banned. Bad threads get deleted, trolls get expelled, misguided people get the point hammered into them... Plus you get to read the ban list and the ban thread which is very entertaining.
The point I was trying to correct was someone who contradicted point #6 by suggesting that users should just be happy with what they have and be quiet about it
Except I want you to be quiet about it because I like moderation as harsh as it is, and if anything, I would like it to be harsher, and thats coming from a "consumer", under your analysis, just like you. The reason why TL is like it is isn't because users are just being deferent to the profiteering staff, its because users like strict moderation that keeps the riffraff out.
The only thing I don't like is the favoritism for long-time members or mods or former mods ... or famous players. There is a little too much hero-worshipping in general (among staff and the general TL masses).
On September 26 2010 09:53 lac29 wrote: The only thing I don't like is the favoritism for long-time members or mods or former mods ... or famous players. There is a little too much hero-worshipping in general (among staff and the general TL masses).
I think the idea behind that is that people like IdrA, Day[9], Rekrul, and other notables on TL.net have earned their keep. I understand your position when it comes to generic long-time members (not naming names), but the icons of this site have done more than enough for the community to warrant favoritism. Besides, most of the bashers of people like MorroW, IdrA, etc. are relatively recent arrivals to TL. If you're in that position, you have no right to demean the works of a mod/admin/contributor/pro until you yourself have contributed enough to mirror their achievements.
To me even mods/famous players should be questioned if appropriately worded posts/questions are made. There should be accountability at every level. Just look at a place like reddit. Even famous reddit posters are questioned when ppl think they are wrong.
I simply think there is a little *too* much favoritism (obviously not enough to make me leave TL, but enough to annoy me quite a bit sometimes). Being a famous TL poster doesn't mean common courtesy and appropriate language are not required (I'm thinking about two particular ppl but I'm sure there are many).
On August 15 2010 10:05 Perkins1752 wrote: Dude it has been said so many times no: 1.Zerg players are worse then the average Terran player 2. Zerg is fine l2p 3. If you are still losing, just use nydus 4. It's the player, not the race 5. Just mass Mutas/Roaches and it's gg 6. Broodlords are awesome just quicktech to Blords and it's gg 7. Just sac an Overlord
Others than that, Zerg has superior early-midgame strategies themselves: 1. Banelingbust! 2. Roaches! 3. Alot of other strategies, i don't remember exactly but they are completely awesome 4. Nydus! (It has not been mentioned often, but nydus totally owns)
Others than that, Zerg is fine l2p
User was temp banned for this post.
He got temp banned for apparently derailing the thread. The only person who took it seriously in the entire thread was pieisamazing. Why wasn't he the one who was banned? It was such obvious dry humor, that only a fool would believe it. And there was no derailing of thread whatsoever. Only a couple people addressed the sarcasm to pie, before he realized his aloofness. ---------
That's one that I vividly remembered because I actually chuckled at perkin's joke, and was thinking 'wtf' to see he was temp-banned.
Many times, warnings/bans are deserved, but to say the mods aren't trigger-happy from time to time would be a misstatement.
One involves a warning I got that I didn't think was warranted. If you really want to know you can look back in my post history to find it. It was questioning a famous TLer who asked for money.
On August 15 2010 10:05 Perkins1752 wrote: Dude it has been said so many times no: 1.Zerg players are worse then the average Terran player 2. Zerg is fine l2p 3. If you are still losing, just use nydus 4. It's the player, not the race 5. Just mass Mutas/Roaches and it's gg 6. Broodlords are awesome just quicktech to Blords and it's gg 7. Just sac an Overlord
Others than that, Zerg has superior early-midgame strategies themselves: 1. Banelingbust! 2. Roaches! 3. Alot of other strategies, i don't remember exactly but they are completely awesome 4. Nydus! (It has not been mentioned often, but nydus totally owns)
Others than that, Zerg is fine l2p
User was temp banned for this post.
He got temp banned for apparently derailing the thread. The only person who took it seriously in the entire thread was pieisamazing. Why wasn't he the one who was banned? It was such obvious dry humor, that only a fool would believe it. And there was no derailing of thread whatsoever. Only a couple people addressed the sarcasm to pie, before he realized his aloofness. ---------
That's one that I vividly remembered because I actually chuckled at perkin's joke, and was thinking 'wtf' to see he was temp-banned.
Many times, warnings/bans are deserved, but to say the mods aren't trigger-happy from time to time would be a misstatement.
I don't think he was banned because the mod didn't realize he was joking... that's not the point. First of all it was only a 2 day ban and secondly that was just terrible timing to make a post like that. A top zerg is addressing a highly sensitive issue and a few posts into the thread people are fucking around. How derailed the thread 'got' isn't the only thing that could factor in to what action should be taken. I think anything more than 2 day would have been overkill though.
On September 26 2010 10:49 lac29 wrote: One involves a warning I got that I didn't think was warranted. If you really want to know you can look back in my post history to find it. It was questioning a famous TLer who asked for money.
I tried looking it up but with so little information it was difficult so I got bored... but if you are gonna make that claim then at least don't be lazy and provide the link ._.
On September 26 2010 09:53 lac29 wrote: The only thing I don't like is the favoritism for long-time members or mods or former mods ... or famous players. There is a little too much hero-worshipping in general (among staff and the general TL masses).
Why? Why should people who have contributed 20x more to the esports community have to put up with retarded posters who post out of a combination of arrogance and ignorance? I know if I had invested an insane amount of time in the esports community, and I was allowed to lash out at a random idiot who posts retarded things every once in a while, I simply wouldn't post.
And what made me start posting on Tl.net was because there were a lot of recognized progamers and contributors active in the community. It wasn't just another esports forum, it was "the" esports forum.
It isn't about hero worship at all.
It comes down to one thing. Do you want famous players posting with more privilege, and being active in the community and participating in discussions or do you want TL to be a forum for fans only.
On September 26 2010 09:53 lac29 wrote: The only thing I don't like is the favoritism for long-time members or mods or former mods ... or famous players. There is a little too much hero-worshipping in general (among staff and the general TL masses).
Why? Why should people who have contributed 20x more to the esports community have to put up with retarded posters who post out of a combination of arrogance and ignorance? I know if I had invested an insane amount of time in the esports community, and I was allowed to lash out at a random idiot who posts retarded things every once in a while, I simply wouldn't post.
And what made me start posting on Tl.net was because there were a lot of recognized progamers and contributors active in the community. It wasn't just another esports forum, it was "the" esports forum.
It isn't about hero worship at all.
It comes down to one thing. Do you want famous players posting with more privilege, and being active in the community and participating in discussions or do you want TL to be a forum for fans only.
It's obvious that TL mods do a fine job at most stupid posts. However there are still a lot of valid, reasonably courteous and/or thoughtful posts where ppl are warned or temp banned. I'm not talking about stupid posters ... I'm talking about the other reasonable posters who get punished because mods favor certain TLers.
micronesia: It was Artosis asking TLers for money so he could buy a camera. I call it favoritism when I get warned simply because I was wondering why he needed so much money for what I thought was a webcam. Also I brought up the point that he should let everyone know how much money he needs exactly because frankly, TLers can be easily taken advantage of by ppl asking for money and never telling them when to stop donating or how much the goal is (he did eventually say he got enough money but if I remember correctly did not say how much his target goal was). There is no accountability and I think that even from someone like Artosis there should be accountability when you are someone online asking for money from others.
You were probably the one who warned me. I guess the main point in this particular instance is if anyone in TL asks for money it's perfectly reasonable for ppl to ask questions as to why this money is needed for whatever they want to do. I think it boils down to whether you think my post was courteous enough (I think it was especially given what I knew about the situation (webcam vs camera as well as someone asking for money). You obvious disagreed and warned me.
On August 15 2010 10:05 Perkins1752 wrote: Dude it has been said so many times no: 1.Zerg players are worse then the average Terran player 2. Zerg is fine l2p 3. If you are still losing, just use nydus 4. It's the player, not the race 5. Just mass Mutas/Roaches and it's gg 6. Broodlords are awesome just quicktech to Blords and it's gg 7. Just sac an Overlord
Others than that, Zerg has superior early-midgame strategies themselves: 1. Banelingbust! 2. Roaches! 3. Alot of other strategies, i don't remember exactly but they are completely awesome 4. Nydus! (It has not been mentioned often, but nydus totally owns)
Others than that, Zerg is fine l2p
User was temp banned for this post.
He got temp banned for apparently derailing the thread. The only person who took it seriously in the entire thread was pieisamazing. Why wasn't he the one who was banned? It was such obvious dry humor, that only a fool would believe it. And there was no derailing of thread whatsoever. Only a couple people addressed the sarcasm to pie, before he realized his aloofness. ---------
That's one that I vividly remembered because I actually chuckled at perkin's joke, and was thinking 'wtf' to see he was temp-banned.
Many times, warnings/bans are deserved, but to say the mods aren't trigger-happy from time to time would be a misstatement.
If anything I think they aren't strict enough. Even though I've been a member of this site for only a couple of years, I can tell the post quality has decreased considerably. Too bad TL doesn't have a larger number of mods (shout out to all the TL mods you guys are the best)
And people in the SFW Pics thread can't post pictures properly? Just hit the preview button. If it doesn't show up in the preview.... it isn't going to show up in the thread...
There should also be some sort of standard for starting threads. People seem to think they can start any kind of thread they want (whether it's a personal issue, balance issue that'd been talked about, fanboy or player hate, etc), with whatever lack of support they want to provide. It's really disheartening when I open a new thread to see three lines in the OP or a completely closed minded argument
Anyways thanks again for the TL mods. We (forum goers, lurkers, etc) should really be grateful for such a great site
On August 15 2010 10:05 Perkins1752 wrote: Dude it has been said so many times no: 1.Zerg players are worse then the average Terran player 2. Zerg is fine l2p 3. If you are still losing, just use nydus 4. It's the player, not the race 5. Just mass Mutas/Roaches and it's gg 6. Broodlords are awesome just quicktech to Blords and it's gg 7. Just sac an Overlord
Others than that, Zerg has superior early-midgame strategies themselves: 1. Banelingbust! 2. Roaches! 3. Alot of other strategies, i don't remember exactly but they are completely awesome 4. Nydus! (It has not been mentioned often, but nydus totally owns)
Others than that, Zerg is fine l2p
User was temp banned for this post.
He got temp banned for apparently derailing the thread. The only person who took it seriously in the entire thread was pieisamazing. Why wasn't he the one who was banned? It was such obvious dry humor, that only a fool would believe it. And there was no derailing of thread whatsoever. Only a couple people addressed the sarcasm to pie, before he realized his aloofness. ---------
That's one that I vividly remembered because I actually chuckled at perkin's joke, and was thinking 'wtf' to see he was temp-banned.
Many times, warnings/bans are deserved, but to say the mods aren't trigger-happy from time to time would be a misstatement.
I don't think he was banned because the mod didn't realize he was joking... that's not the point. First of all it was only a 2 day ban and secondly that was just terrible timing to make a post like that. A top zerg is addressing a highly sensitive issue and a few posts into the thread people are fucking around. How derailed the thread 'got' isn't the only thing that could factor in to what action should be taken. I think anything more than 2 day would have been overkill though.
I know the mod knew he wasn't joking. It still doesn't justify it imo. I guess it's a matter of opinion.
On August 15 2010 10:05 Perkins1752 wrote: Dude it has been said so many times no: 1.Zerg players are worse then the average Terran player 2. Zerg is fine l2p 3. If you are still losing, just use nydus 4. It's the player, not the race 5. Just mass Mutas/Roaches and it's gg 6. Broodlords are awesome just quicktech to Blords and it's gg 7. Just sac an Overlord
Others than that, Zerg has superior early-midgame strategies themselves: 1. Banelingbust! 2. Roaches! 3. Alot of other strategies, i don't remember exactly but they are completely awesome 4. Nydus! (It has not been mentioned often, but nydus totally owns)
Others than that, Zerg is fine l2p
User was temp banned for this post.
He got temp banned for apparently derailing the thread. The only person who took it seriously in the entire thread was pieisamazing. Why wasn't he the one who was banned? It was such obvious dry humor, that only a fool would believe it. And there was no derailing of thread whatsoever. Only a couple people addressed the sarcasm to pie, before he realized his aloofness. ---------
That's one that I vividly remembered because I actually chuckled at perkin's joke, and was thinking 'wtf' to see he was temp-banned.
Many times, warnings/bans are deserved, but to say the mods aren't trigger-happy from time to time would be a misstatement.
i totaly dont agree with the op. i think the banhammer is workless at moment.
so many useless threads and post of people who try to start a endless discussion over things that were discussed in other threads. every 20 -50 of them get a "close , warn , ban". a post like the one quotet in the op can destroy a good thread in sec. its like a mark for all the spammer: here we can start"
sometimes i come here read some threads and think by myself: " why the fuck i am reading tl ... onyl low level and low age players post here in last month". A day later i find some really intressting and good threads.
Than i realize the good post are the same but to many new joung people joined and start mass spam. So if i were a tl mod i would ban much much more.
i hope for tl the mass spammer here will move on to other sites ... because i dont know any better site to get good sc information but im at a point where im thinking : Are the good infomation worth it to read so many shit to find them?
On August 15 2010 10:05 Perkins1752 wrote: Dude it has been said so many times no: 1.Zerg players are worse then the average Terran player 2. Zerg is fine l2p 3. If you are still losing, just use nydus 4. It's the player, not the race 5. Just mass Mutas/Roaches and it's gg 6. Broodlords are awesome just quicktech to Blords and it's gg 7. Just sac an Overlord
Others than that, Zerg has superior early-midgame strategies themselves: 1. Banelingbust! 2. Roaches! 3. Alot of other strategies, i don't remember exactly but they are completely awesome 4. Nydus! (It has not been mentioned often, but nydus totally owns)
Others than that, Zerg is fine l2p
User was temp banned for this post.
over this: hes a spammer who makes fun over a diffrent group of spammer. thats perhaps funny but thats make them only spam more. its a troll post! and a clear ban
On August 15 2010 10:05 Perkins1752 wrote: Dude it has been said so many times no: 1.Zerg players are worse then the average Terran player 2. Zerg is fine l2p 3. If you are still losing, just use nydus 4. It's the player, not the race 5. Just mass Mutas/Roaches and it's gg 6. Broodlords are awesome just quicktech to Blords and it's gg 7. Just sac an Overlord
Others than that, Zerg has superior early-midgame strategies themselves: 1. Banelingbust! 2. Roaches! 3. Alot of other strategies, i don't remember exactly but they are completely awesome 4. Nydus! (It has not been mentioned often, but nydus totally owns)
Others than that, Zerg is fine l2p
User was temp banned for this post.
He got temp banned for apparently derailing the thread. The only person who took it seriously in the entire thread was pieisamazing. Why wasn't he the one who was banned? It was such obvious dry humor, that only a fool would believe it. And there was no derailing of thread whatsoever. Only a couple people addressed the sarcasm to pie, before he realized his aloofness. ---------
That's one that I vividly remembered because I actually chuckled at perkin's joke, and was thinking 'wtf' to see he was temp-banned.
Many times, warnings/bans are deserved, but to say the mods aren't trigger-happy from time to time would be a misstatement.
Writing "l2p" is bannable.
Yeah, fuck context!
Allowing abbreviations like "l2p" in an ironic context opens up an enormous can of worms. The line between an instance of "l2p" used to make fun of people who say "l2p" and an instance used because the the post writer is an idiot is very hazy.
To clarify: a bunch of people using "l2p" to make fun of ignorant internet slang shits up the forums about as much as the ignorant internet slang itself.
Another thing is that blogs have been clamped down on as well. I'm fine with strict SC moderating but I think that blogs should be mostly free reign (minus of course one-line sentences etc). I forgot which blogs but I do remember one or two legitimate blog posts (probably opinion/complaining pieces on balance or something like that). I get that these posts shouldn't be in the SC2 strat forums ... but for the love of God let ppl post on their blogs about these things.
On September 26 2010 11:09 lac29 wrote: micronesia: It was Artosis asking TLers for money so he could buy a camera. I call it favoritism when I get warned simply because I was wondering why he needed so much money for what I thought was a webcam. Also I brought up the point that he should let everyone know how much money he needs exactly because frankly, TLers can be easily taken advantage of by ppl asking for money and never telling them when to stop donating or how much the goal is (he did eventually say he got enough money but if I remember correctly did not say how much his target goal was). There is no accountability and I think that even from someone like Artosis there should be accountability when you are someone online asking for money from others.
You were probably the one who warned me. I guess the main point in this particular instance is if anyone in TL asks for money it's perfectly reasonable for ppl to ask questions as to why this money is needed for whatever they want to do. I think it boils down to whether you think my post was courteous enough (I think it was especially given what I knew about the situation (webcam vs camera as well as someone asking for money). You obvious disagreed and warned me.
First of all I'm not the one who warned you...
It wasn't some crazy undue favoritism.... he had been putting together programs on a weekly for a long time, and was trying to get the equipment necessary to keep doing it and hopefully improve upon it, and then you ignorantly accused him of stuff that didn't make sense. It's clear you didn't intend to be unreasonable or whatever... which is I would assume why you received a warning rather than a ban. The point is to show that it's not okay to ignorantly accuse people of stuff regarding how they contribute to the community.
On September 26 2010 11:43 lac29 wrote: Another thing is that blogs have been clamped down on as well. I'm fine with strict SC moderating but I think that blogs should be mostly free reign (minus of course one-line sentences etc). I forgot which blogs but I do remember one or two legitimate blog posts (probably opinion/complaining pieces on balance or something like that). I get that these posts shouldn't be in the SC2 strat forums ... but for the love of God let ppl post on their blogs about these things.
Can you tell us which blogs they were? I'm sick of you mentioning all these injustices but being too lazy to actually point them out to us.
Also keep in mind our blogs section isn't exactly the same as typical online blogs... and thus they aren't treated exactly the same way.
On September 26 2010 11:26 rally_point wrote: If anything I think they aren't strict enough. Even though I've been a member of this site for only a couple of years, I can tell the post quality has decreased considerably. Too bad TL doesn't have a larger number of mods (shout out to all the TL mods you guys are the best)
Its mainly the SC2 forum (and certain heated topics in the general forum). The BW forums haven't really been too much of an issue even before the end of the season. Mods are indeed doing a good job, but yeah the sc2 forum fills up with so much garbage sometimes its painful to browse. With any luck this trend will calm down though after people get more used to SC2, and hopefully the endless OP/imba threads and posts will cease. Mods generally show a high level of restraint.
On September 26 2010 11:41 Hunch wrote: wtf does l2p mean?
On September 26 2010 11:09 lac29 wrote: micronesia: It was Artosis asking TLers for money so he could buy a camera. I call it favoritism when I get warned simply because I was wondering why he needed so much money for what I thought was a webcam. Also I brought up the point that he should let everyone know how much money he needs exactly because frankly, TLers can be easily taken advantage of by ppl asking for money and never telling them when to stop donating or how much the goal is (he did eventually say he got enough money but if I remember correctly did not say how much his target goal was). There is no accountability and I think that even from someone like Artosis there should be accountability when you are someone online asking for money from others.
You were probably the one who warned me. I guess the main point in this particular instance is if anyone in TL asks for money it's perfectly reasonable for ppl to ask questions as to why this money is needed for whatever they want to do. I think it boils down to whether you think my post was courteous enough (I think it was especially given what I knew about the situation (webcam vs camera as well as someone asking for money). You obvious disagreed and warned me.
First of all I'm not the one who warned you...
It wasn't some crazy undue favoritism.... he had been putting together programs on a weekly for a long time, and was trying to get the equipment necessary to keep doing it and hopefully improve upon it, and then you ignorantly accused him of stuff that didn't make sense. It's clear you didn't intend to be unreasonable or whatever... which is I would assume why you received a warning rather than a ban. The point is to show that it's not okay to ignorantly accuse people of stuff regarding how they contribute to the community.
On September 26 2010 11:43 lac29 wrote: Another thing is that blogs have been clamped down on as well. I'm fine with strict SC moderating but I think that blogs should be mostly free reign (minus of course one-line sentences etc). I forgot which blogs but I do remember one or two legitimate blog posts (probably opinion/complaining pieces on balance or something like that). I get that these posts shouldn't be in the SC2 strat forums ... but for the love of God let ppl post on their blogs about these things.
Can you tell us which blogs they were? I'm sick of you mentioning all these injustices but being too lazy to actually point them out to us.
Also keep in mind our blogs section isn't exactly the same as typical online blogs... and thus they aren't treated exactly the same way.
It was undue favoritism. I didn't accuse him of anything unreasonable. I asked why he needed to ask for money for what I thought was a $50 webcam. Obviously I was wrong about it being a webcam but Artosis slung back with some pretty rude comeback. Seriously, if you are asking for money you should expect some questioning. And I also did intend to be reasonable. I admitted my mistake and I mentioned that he should also put what his goal is and how far he is towards that goal. If you continue reading Jibba even agreed with me and I got more BS from some user who posted right under Jibba. Being famous doesn't mean you can't be questioned or held accountable.
As for the blogs, I honestly don't remember which ones. It's not like I posted in those blogs or saved them. You are being very aggressive and extreme ... and honestly I don't know why. I've taken my fair share of criticism and you should be able to handle some as well.
On September 26 2010 11:09 lac29 wrote: micronesia: It was Artosis asking TLers for money so he could buy a camera. I call it favoritism when I get warned simply because I was wondering why he needed so much money for what I thought was a webcam. Also I brought up the point that he should let everyone know how much money he needs exactly because frankly, TLers can be easily taken advantage of by ppl asking for money and never telling them when to stop donating or how much the goal is (he did eventually say he got enough money but if I remember correctly did not say how much his target goal was). There is no accountability and I think that even from someone like Artosis there should be accountability when you are someone online asking for money from others.
You were probably the one who warned me. I guess the main point in this particular instance is if anyone in TL asks for money it's perfectly reasonable for ppl to ask questions as to why this money is needed for whatever they want to do. I think it boils down to whether you think my post was courteous enough (I think it was especially given what I knew about the situation (webcam vs camera as well as someone asking for money). You obvious disagreed and warned me.
First of all I'm not the one who warned you...
It wasn't some crazy undue favoritism.... he had been putting together programs on a weekly for a long time, and was trying to get the equipment necessary to keep doing it and hopefully improve upon it, and then you ignorantly accused him of stuff that didn't make sense. It's clear you didn't intend to be unreasonable or whatever... which is I would assume why you received a warning rather than a ban. The point is to show that it's not okay to ignorantly accuse people of stuff regarding how they contribute to the community.
On September 26 2010 11:43 lac29 wrote: Another thing is that blogs have been clamped down on as well. I'm fine with strict SC moderating but I think that blogs should be mostly free reign (minus of course one-line sentences etc). I forgot which blogs but I do remember one or two legitimate blog posts (probably opinion/complaining pieces on balance or something like that). I get that these posts shouldn't be in the SC2 strat forums ... but for the love of God let ppl post on their blogs about these things.
Can you tell us which blogs they were? I'm sick of you mentioning all these injustices but being too lazy to actually point them out to us.
Also keep in mind our blogs section isn't exactly the same as typical online blogs... and thus they aren't treated exactly the same way.
It was undue favoritism. I didn't accuse him of anything unreasonable. I asked why he needed to ask for money for what I thought was a $50 webcam. Obviously I was wrong about it being a webcam but Artosis slung back with some pretty rude comeback. Seriously, if you are asking for money you should expect some questioning. And I also did intend to be reasonable. I admitted my mistake and I mentioned that he should also put what his goal is and how far he is towards that goal. If you continue reading Jibba even agreed with me and I got more BS from some user who posted right under Jibba. Being famous doesn't mean you can't be questioned or held accountable.
If you weren't showing to be ignorant of what he does and was trying to do then I don't think there would have been a problem. Everything else wasn't bad for mostly the reasons you gave.
As for the blogs, I honestly don't remember which ones. It's not like I posted in those blogs or saved them. You are being very aggressive and extreme ... and honestly I don't know why. I've taken my fair share of criticism and you should be able to handle some as well.
I will admit I've gotten frustrated with case after case of people referring to 'that time' moderation was bad with no evidence, but I don't think it's unreasonable for me to get especially frustrated with someone who does it more than once in the same thread.
Also you haven't criticized me specifically as far as I know.
Just be less sensitive. I don't get why you specifically get so offended by some criticism (like I said, I get my fair share or online criticism). None of us in the TL masses are actively recording and archiving every offense/problem we see in these forums just so we can show you as evidence right now.
I only get offended when I feel the criticism is unjustified (some criticism in this thread has been justified). When people link to the offending post/thread and it turns out that there really was a screw up then that's actually good and hopefully we can fix it.
On September 26 2010 05:30 Spyridon wrote: Eh, I think that guy mentioned in the OP kinda deserved it...
But to be honest, I think there is some form of favor in the bannings. Sometimes people have been banned for very minor things (which should have been a warning at most), where other people in the same thread went on to attack others in the post - and they were not banned simply because the mods were in agreement with them. Ironically, the ones who were banned were the ones with differing opinions from the mods...
I've even had it happen to me once. Never even got a warning - just a week ban for expressing my opinion (in a fashion that did not go against any of TL's list of rules).
And while this is going on, theres countless other worthless posts that are let go? Many not even having a valid discussion with people flaming eachother... but others get banned that are expressing legitimate opinons? Doesnt make much sense.
But w/e, what are you going to do? I guess you cant have more bans without people getting banned who dont deserve it, or less people that dont deserve it getting banned w/o less overall bans.
Can you substantiate these claims by providing some evidence? Usually more goes into bans/warnings than is publicly viewable... like history, messages etc... this has all already been discussed in this thread.
I'm starting to get sick of threads like these... not because nobody should be allowed to talk about this stuff, but rather because I'm finding post after post of people complaining how they or their friends were mistreated and when you actually investigate 9/10 times they weren't.
I just mentioned my feelings about the issue because this is a public post. I'm not trying to make anyone look bad so I did not think it's necessary to post evidence publicly - only shared personal feelings on the topic at hand.
I was very upset when it happened, and I would have loved to have it looked in to at the time - but as I was banned I was obviously not able to contact any mods to investigate. I havent had any prior issues in my history, I dont even think I've ever send a PM or any sort of message. Did not even get a warning on that day (or in any other older topic's that I am aware of - but I havent went thru all of them. I've never recieved any PM's mentioning I've been warned though, if any are even sent).
It's kind of over and done with now as I'm not banned anymore, but If anyone with any sort of authority would still like to look in to it at this point, I would be happy to send a PM.
On September 27 2010 09:49 Spyridon wrote: It's kind of over and done with now as I'm not banned anymore, but If anyone with any sort of authority would still like to look in to it at this point, I would be happy to send a PM.
I'd suggest PMing the mod in question (Plexa, in your case). You'll find we're actually not bad guys, even if we're the one that banned you. I'm always ready to justify my actions to anyone... remember, the end result that we want to achieve through the warning/banning process is to reform the way someone posts. Not to just needlessly punish someone for no reason.
Your 'personal feelings' don't help us improve TL though. Whenever we look back and find something was a mistake we try to ensure that it isn't repeated.
"Come on guys... Idra isnt god... he gonna qq like every other zerg player because they didnt receive buff..."
User was warned for this post
User was temp banned for this post.
Is he exaggerating. Yes.
Is that on topic. No.
This is TL's forum, you have no say as to what "should" be ban worthy or not. TL does not have to be consistent with their ban/warns. When we sign up for an account @ TL we are completely aware of this.
There really is no such thing as "mod abuse" or "ban abuse" because to say "abuse" would imply that the action is "taking advantage of the power immorally or not following the rules" except TL mod/admins have no rules to stick to. They make the rules.
I like it this way, if they weren't so quick to ban I would be posting all sorts of retarded stuff. They keep me in line so I'm guessing it must work on other people too.
If you're going to disagree with someone, you have to do it constructively.
The quote in the OP doesn't add anything even though it's a "disagreement", it's just trolling.
It isn't bannable for disagreement, it's bannable for being unconstructive and a waste of space on this forum - doubly so because it triggered about 7 replies that were ALSO off-topic as people jumped to tell the troll to shut up.
On September 25 2010 02:41 TryThis wrote: personally, i think the fact that TL is strict is why i love it so much as a forum. the post your talking about, really didnt benefit the thread whatsoever, in fact it was right on the way to ruining a good thread. as a result he got his bans.
Some mods are just more trigger happy than others, I just hope there is a much better consistency,
i.e. One mod can read through a thread and hand out 2 warns, another mod can read through the exact same thread and hand out 5 temp bans.
Fortunately the majority of the mods are much easier going then some of the trigger happy ones.
Also it is disappointing to see some of the ban comments from some mods as being pretty BM themselves. While some mods write out clear mannered reasons to why you have been banned and even suggest improvements, others are pretty immature by themselves.
That account was created on 2010-08-23 14:29:21 and had 18 posts.
Reason: Put more effort into your posts. Contentless posting is not welcome on TL, especially when you craft your non-messages with txting shortcuts. TL.net forums are not your personal Instant Messenger. Please do better.
On September 25 2010 02:45 zerglingsfolife wrote: Are you kidding? That is the perfect example of a completely shitty post derailing the thread. He didn't even read the interview, made an assumption and like 5 posts on the first page were telling him he is an idiot instead of responding to the opening post.
If you want to troll, you can go to pretty much any other forum on the internet, just stay the fuck out of teamliquid. Free speech is cool as long as you follow the 10 commandments and in general, just be respectful.
Pretty much. I think that the mods do an excellent job. They reward thoughtful posts by punishing the people that obviously took no effort in their responses. There is a plenty of leniency when it comes to free speech; just make sure that you're saying something intelligent and thought-out.
As far as I can tell, only the lazy or jerk-posters get banned or warned.
free speech is a stupid idea that only exists because we dont have a reasonable way to decide who gets to say what ideas are acceptable and what arent those people exist on tl and the site would suck a lot worse if they were worried about free speech. they're not infallible but its far better than the alternative.
On September 26 2010 05:30 Spyridon wrote: Eh, I think that guy mentioned in the OP kinda deserved it...
But to be honest, I think there is some form of favor in the bannings. Sometimes people have been banned for very minor things (which should have been a warning at most), where other people in the same thread went on to attack others in the post - and they were not banned simply because the mods were in agreement with them. Ironically, the ones who were banned were the ones with differing opinions from the mods...
I've even had it happen to me once. Never even got a warning - just a week ban for expressing my opinion (in a fashion that did not go against any of TL's list of rules).
And while this is going on, theres countless other worthless posts that are let go? Many not even having a valid discussion with people flaming eachother... but others get banned that are expressing legitimate opinons? Doesnt make much sense.
But w/e, what are you going to do? I guess you cant have more bans without people getting banned who dont deserve it, or less people that dont deserve it getting banned w/o less overall bans.
Can you substantiate these claims by providing some evidence? Usually more goes into bans/warnings than is publicly viewable... like history, messages etc... this has all already been discussed in this thread.
I'm starting to get sick of threads like these... not because nobody should be allowed to talk about this stuff, but rather because I'm finding post after post of people complaining how they or their friends were mistreated and when you actually investigate 9/10 times they weren't.
I just mentioned my feelings about the issue because this is a public post. I'm not trying to make anyone look bad so I did not think it's necessary to post evidence publicly - only shared personal feelings on the topic at hand.
I was very upset when it happened, and I would have loved to have it looked in to at the time - but as I was banned I was obviously not able to contact any mods to investigate. I havent had any prior issues in my history, I dont even think I've ever send a PM or any sort of message. Did not even get a warning on that day (or in any other older topic's that I am aware of - but I havent went thru all of them. I've never recieved any PM's mentioning I've been warned though, if any are even sent).
It's kind of over and done with now as I'm not banned anymore, but If anyone with any sort of authority would still like to look in to it at this point, I would be happy to send a PM.
I completely stand by that ban, and if you want to take it up with me I'm more than happy to discuss it with you .
As an aside: Linking to the post in question in the automatic ban thread could be helpful though, since context is quite important in understanding why someone was banned (and past posting histories), since the specific post is hard to find sometimes.
(can't find the post in question for genozstriker's ban, so I am unable to sufficiently comment on the subject)
mods definitely do a good job on here. They usually manage to slam the banhammer of justice (or a warning) to idiots that say stupid shit. except baller, because he's a genius.
On September 27 2010 13:04 IdrA wrote: free speech is a stupid idea that only exists because we dont have a reasonable way to decide who gets to say what ideas are acceptable and what arent those people exist on tl and the site would suck a lot worse if they were worried about free speech. they're not infallible but its far better than the alternative.
i really hope you mean the first thing only for tl ( a place where you can decide to join or not). if so i agree because on a place where your free to join or leave there is no point to allow total free speach. if someone comes into my house i would not allow him to say whatever he wants (like he blaming me or other of my guests)
if not i think you ... ( use the free mind to complete it... ^^)
As an aside: Linking to the post in question in the automatic ban thread could be helpful though, since context is quite important in understanding why someone was banned (and past posting histories), since the specific post is hard to find sometimes.
(can't find the post in question for genozstriker's ban, so I am unable to sufficiently comment on the subject)
many times bans are not for a single post but rather a combination of many things.
As an aside: Linking to the post in question in the automatic ban thread could be helpful though, since context is quite important in understanding why someone was banned (and past posting histories), since the specific post is hard to find sometimes.
(can't find the post in question for genozstriker's ban, so I am unable to sufficiently comment on the subject)
Fyi, the post in question was
On September 24 2010 10:20 GenoZStriker wrote: Don't waste your time with Bashiok. He's just as worthless as Karune and is full of shit. Seriously, balancing the game is not their main priority as you can see from the latest patch. He's just there to give you false hope and ban people ofcourse. Since they get a lot of hate per minute
On September 27 2010 13:04 IdrA wrote: free speech is a stupid idea that only exists because we dont have a reasonable way to decide who gets to say what ideas are acceptable and what arent those people exist on tl and the site would suck a lot worse if they were worried about free speech. they're not infallible but its far better than the alternative.
i really hope you mean the first thing only for tl ( a place where you can decide to join or not). if so i agree because on a place where your free to join or leave there is no point to allow total free speach. if someone comes into my house i would not allow him to say whatever he wants (like he blaming me or other of my guests)
if not i think you ... ( use the fee mind to complete it... ^^)
no i mean in general, freedom of speech is the best option we have but its bad. in general people are not very smart, or at the very least theyre easy to manipulate, and there most definitely is such a thing as a dangerous idea. freedom of speech allows those ideas to be spread amongst the stupid people which then causes a whole buttload of problems. if there were an acceptable way to define which ideas shouldnt be allowed id be all for implementing it.
ok. after i read your post i was thinking:" what can you awnser to this..."
let me try it.
There can not be any accepatble way! No human or group should ever have the power to say what ideas should be disallowed. Im from germany and in our history you can see how this is ending. And whatever "acceptable way" you think of, its make by humans. This means human decide what ideas are allowed to think/say by other humans.
I think people like you should be allowed to say that they dont want freedom of speach and thinking. Because i think allowing such bad and dangerous ideas is the only way to never let them be reality again.
one of the reasons TL is the best gamerelated forum i ever saw is the amazing moderator work.
sure sometimes some warnings/temp bans result out of the mood of the moderator (i think my last warning for example was not that reasonable and was maybe more of a misunderstanding or just a pissed mod) but who cares. a not 100% reasonable warning that might happen is a very small price to pay for the good work they do..
and if anything the sc2 forum needs even more strict warnings/bannings.
i just dislike the new NSFW censorship. but guess it couldnt be avoided with our liquid heroes getting sponsored and all the new sc2 guys.
the TL staff kept this site amazing over all those years (joined early 04,lurked before that) and thats proof enough that they are doing their shit right.
To be honest I think the banning for the strongly-stated opinions is just too much.
If the comments are completely flamebait, I can see the reason for banning.
However, a lot of people are just voicing their thoughts/views. The constant bans make me think TL wants us to think a certain way. And that has turned me off to posting here.
dont say useless stuff and you should be fine that guy was a prick for saying idra, one of the best players out there, isnt good and saying that all zergs are crying because they didnt get a buff so i was happy he got banned it distracts the posters from the op and to your rude comment
I actually would like to see some stricter rules and some more bans. In any case, TL has by far the best moderation when it comes to gaming sites, and it is one of the reasons I visit this site on a daily basis.
On September 27 2010 15:07 skeldark wrote: ok. after i read your post i was thinking:" what can you awnser to this..."
let me try it.
There can not be any accepatble way! No human or group should ever have the power to say what ideas should be disallowed. Im from germany and in our history you can see how this is ending. And whatever "acceptable way" you think of, its make by humans. This means human decide what ideas are allowed to think/say by other humans.
I think people like you should be allowed to say that they dont want freedom of speach and thinking. Because i think allowing such bad and dangerous ideas is the only way to never let them be reality again.
but we've already agreed on ideas that are acceptably dangerous to outlaw. you're not allowed to yell fire in a crowded building, because a big enough percentage of the population agrees that that is dangerous enough to justify giving up free speech, in that case.
but you're right that on most issues it isnt practical, we'll never be able to have a fair system that also bans extremist islam or the shit glenn beck spews, im just saying that in an ideal world we should.
On September 27 2010 15:07 skeldark wrote: ok. after i read your post i was thinking:" what can you awnser to this..."
let me try it.
There can not be any accepatble way! No human or group should ever have the power to say what ideas should be disallowed. Im from germany and in our history you can see how this is ending. And whatever "acceptable way" you think of, its make by humans. This means human decide what ideas are allowed to think/say by other humans.
I think people like you should be allowed to say that they dont want freedom of speach and thinking. Because i think allowing such bad and dangerous ideas is the only way to never let them be reality again.
but we've already agreed on ideas that are acceptably dangerous to outlaw. you're not allowed to yell fire in a crowded building, because a big enough percentage of the population agrees that that is dangerous enough to justify giving up free speech, in that case.
but you're right that on most issues it isnt practical, we'll never be able to have a fair system that also bans extremist islam or the shit glenn beck spews, im just saying that in an ideal world we should.
I think a lot of social/political constructions go this way. :/ Choose the least bad at the time, and hope it stays that way.
Not sure if this thread was a huge troll or not, since it is a fairly low post count member starting a fairly questionable thread if you ask me.
That being said, the reason why TL has been able to remain a quality forum for so long is because of great moderation, and I think every post in this thread can attest to that. I've always felt, that if you insult another member or do something stupid, you're gonna get warned. If it's a pattern, you'll get banned. I'll admit that I haven't read all of the forum guidelines, but I try to think before I type, and the only times I've been warned is when I didn't, which seems fair to me.
On September 27 2010 15:07 skeldark wrote: ok. after i read your post i was thinking:" what can you awnser to this..."
let me try it.
There can not be any accepatble way! No human or group should ever have the power to say what ideas should be disallowed. Im from germany and in our history you can see how this is ending. And whatever "acceptable way" you think of, its make by humans. This means human decide what ideas are allowed to think/say by other humans.
I think people like you should be allowed to say that they dont want freedom of speach and thinking. Because i think allowing such bad and dangerous ideas is the only way to never let them be reality again.
but we've already agreed on ideas that are acceptably dangerous to outlaw. you're not allowed to yell fire in a crowded building, because a big enough percentage of the population agrees that that is dangerous enough to justify giving up free speech, in that case.
but you're right that on most issues it isnt practical, we'll never be able to have a fair system that also bans extremist islam or the shit glenn beck spews, im just saying that in an ideal world we should.
But who says its right to ban extremist islam? You cant argue like that. From their perspective they are just freedom fighters. Now you can argue that they are terrorists, but im pretty sure hitler argued that, that times freedomfighters were terrorists aswell. Winners write biased history and in a 100 years we might just think back at USA and democracy as the most retarded thing in the world. (this is by no means my opinion, just an example)
Problem is, you cannot argue against freedom of speech in anyway since you will always be biased. Therefor you will just have to allow everything. Im from denmark and we've taken a pretty big beating for freedom of speech.
What im saying is, your ideal world is probably not everyones ideal world.
On September 25 2010 06:16 archaik wrote: I think they moderation is pretty arbitrary and strange. I criticized Artosis for whining about imbalance in one thread and got a warning for it, like wtf? It feels like you can't criticize certain people (Idra, Artosis, tasteless etc).
On September 17 2010 19:49 archaik wrote: Artosis: whine whine bitch bitch. What a dork he is. Tasteless needs a new co-commentator.
User was warned for this post
You be the judge.
Thread over, can this shit please die already? Every time I come to TL and see that this thread is still getting replies, I die a little inside.
Seriously, I thought there was consensus on this? TL's modus operandi of common sense, of not allowing poor quality threads, of not allowing bullshit, and of holding themselves and everyone contributing to the site to a higher standard than is usual for an internet forum breeds quality content, and that's why it's the best pro gaming site on the internet. Why, then, is this thread still going? When I first saw it pop up last winter some time, I thought it would be summarily rejected and ignored, not accumulate 25 pages of debate.
Is TL too strict?
I wrote a post where I literally told low level diamond players that they need to shut their bile holes and stop forming opinions because they're a pack of phenomenal idiots, then questioned the size of their dicks. When a mod did drop by, it was to post in agreement. I wasn't warned or banned.
Looking at the post, it's easy to see why. Content, context, posting in the right area, having a point, humour, self-deprecation, effort. It's about how you say it, and when and where you say it. That's why you're free to share your gripes about TvZ imbalance in LaLuSh's TvZ thread (as long as you formulate your opinion properly and without excess bile), but not in the fucking live report thread. To quote the TL commandments: Common sense.
And if you're still complaining that you can't express your opinions on certain people without repercussion, I once criticisedTasteless'casting. I wasn't warned or banned, because it's not hard to not be a dick about it.
So, no. TL is not too strict. They don't restrict opinions. They don't restrict criticism or negativity (although they commendably encourage the opposite). They barely even restrict freedom of speech. They reject bullshit, nothing more. Stop making them defend themselves against baseless accusations and let them get back to making the TL forums awesome.
To finalize my point in a single paragraph: I just spent 30 pointless minutes crafting and editing this post and manually adding [i] tags to words I wanted to emphasise. I'm not saying you have to be an obsessive-compulsive freak with the Visual Thesaurus open on your taskbar every time you post here, only to be reasonable in your posting. It's not hard to make a post that won't get you banned.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_2mPXDjXYUjc/SYOUNo7zHeI/AAAAAAAADfQ/Pu8MJ-WiBzU/s400/common_sense_god_damn_super_power.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://blog.lib.umn.edu/decke131/architecture/300.jpg)
Yeah, fuck context!
