Initially the idea behind behind this thread was to present a drastic overhaul of macro mechanics (for all races). I might still post those suggestions - but I know there's no chance of them being implemented in a patch, so I decided to try to be realistic instead. Those other changes are better suited for the HotS beta test, while these are ones that I actually think Blizzard could consider implementing.
Most of the following changes don't really affect balance in any major way (if you're a good player), but rather seek to find a way to differentiate truly good terran players from cheesy impostor scrubs. They're thought out to make macro more mentally taxing on terrans, to introduce a level of decision making and a level of early game risk, to punish bad mechanics, and to give zergs a way to capitalize on a terran's bad early game decision making.
I don't expect and I don't want all of them to be implemented. That would screw with terran too much (especially the actual balance change suggestions). It's merely a set of ideas for Blizzard to consider.
MULE revision
Suggestion: Lower mule energy cost to 10 or 15 (I suggest 15). Nerf the effectiveness of a single MULE correspondingly. Keep their duration timer as is (maybe adjust slightly for a 45 starting energy Orbital to make it fit with a multiplier of 15). Possibly lower MULE health.
Reasoning:: The terran macro mechanic is arguably the easiest one in the game. It is the only macro mechanic out of all the races that doesn't scale up in terms of difficulty as the game progresses. With zerg, every additional base means another obligatory and repetitive screen switch every 40 in game seconds (about 30 real life seconds) where you have to stop doing what it was you were doing, and start spawning some larva. With Protoss, every new base means all the more chrono boost energy to blow by individually clicking every building that's producing/upgrading anything of worth. In game duration of a chrono boost is 20 seconds. You can also argue that the warp gate mechanic is an additional macro mechanic in itself, as it requires the protoss to take his eyes off of whatever he was doing every single production cycle.
Then we've got terran and the MULE. In game duration: 90 seconds (although you can start a second mule slightly earlier). Every 65 real life seconds terrans have got a macro chore they must attend to. This must be what gives them such ample time to micro those annoying reapers and hellions. But what happens as they acquire more bases then? No change, still only one macro chore every 65 seconds, with a whopping ONE (!) additional click on an adjacent mineral chunk per new base acquired.
With the exception of buildings (which is not a unique chore), there's nothing else forcing terrans to take their eyes off of their main or harassing armies. What the proposed change accomplishes, is simple:
Forces terrans to switch screens more often.
Aligns the difficulty level of the terran macro mechanic with the other races'.
Allows for a mineral line to become saturated with MULEs, in effect creating a more substantial and concrete punishment for bad macro.
Forces a terran on many bases to switch screens more in order not to oversaturate a base with MULEs, creating a scaling effect in terms of difficulty similar to the other races'.
Balances gold expansions. In the game's curent state, terrans are ridiculously well rewarded when taking gold expos. It ruins alot of games, especially (in my opinion) in TvT. Making MULEs cost 15 energy and be less effective, would smoothen out the income spike from taking a gold expo. The fact that most gold expos only have 6 mineral patches would add to that (Perfect MULEing on 2bases would in theory cover exactly 6 patches with MULE duration adjusted for 45 starting energy Orbital, but gold expos are usually 3rd bases and in mid/late game no one would have such perfect macro). 6 nerfed MULEs on 6 patches would be the equivalent of 2 current state MULEs.
A problem I can foresee with the changes is the role of the scan. 50 energy seems too expensive, most players would likely mindlessly spam MULEs all the time. I propose either lowering the energy cost while lowering the sight radius of the scan, or put scans in a separate structure. My next suggestion is something that would hopefully fill its void.
Another potential problem is the mineral line being visually cluttered. But in my opinion that's a just punishment they'll have to live with for having bad macro.
Lowering/Lifting Supply Depots revision
Suggestion: Make the possibility of lowering/lifting individual supply depots into an Orbital Command ability. Proposed energy cost: 15-25 (i like 25).
Reasoning: Would introduce an element of decision making early game. Might let other races counter early terran rushes better. The choice of spawning units behind or in front of the wall-in could often be crucial. Even then it's a pretty straight forward upgrade that would be a no brainer for most terrans. The important part is that it's a sort of early economic punishment for choosing to be aggressive. Even if it is not utilised, it would force 1basing terrans on multiple production facilities to take their eyes off battle to lift off buildings in order to reinforce (rewarding players who have the mechanics to pull this off as opposed to cheesy scrub impostors). The concept of base layout would become important to terrans, as this proposed change would make zerg drops and mutalisk harass more powerful against terran mech (supply depots blocking accessability everywhere).
Pros:
Rewards aggressive terrans with good mechanics while punishing those with bad.
Makes drops and harass slightly more powerful against terran.
Cons
Might turn out to be an underused ability excepting the depots at the wall-in.
Bunker revision
Suggestion: This section is twofold. First about bunker salvage, then about bunker construction.
Bunker Salvage (four independent solutions)
Increase the time it takes to salvage a bunker.
Return only 50% of the minerals from salvage.
Turn salvage into an Orbital Command ability.
Remove salvage from the game.
Bunker Construction
Make SCVs more visible when constructing a bunker.
Don't let the SCV submerge itself into the middle of a bunker, becoming invulnerable while constructing for random and sometimes sustained periods of time.
Improve drone A.I. so that it does not to lose its attack command when an SCV changes position while constructing a building and the drone happens to bump into a corner of the bunker.
Reasoning: Bunker Salvage isn't being used in the way Blizzard (primarily) intended them. They're not an element in leapfrogging mid and lategame terran pushes. In fact they see no widespread use except for in the early game. It's a ridiculously powerful ability, allowing for practically risk free rushing when terran already has the most mobile and potent harassing units in the game available to them.
The salvage timer is way too short. Since bunker salvage is primarily used in early game rushes, there is no chance for zergs/protosses to kill them off in time with the few units they've got available in such an early game phase. I can't recall if I've ever seen a zerg or protoss succesfully kill an abandoned bunker early game.
The point of all the proposed changes is that rushing should be tied to a certain amount of risk, and to a certain amount of commitment. Bunker rushing in its current state is too easy and too risk free. A failed rush should be economically punished (even if it's just the bunker cost going lost).
When it comes to bunker construction all I have to say is: If Blizzard truly intends on making Starcraft 2 an esports game, if they truly intend on skill being a deciding factor, then a skilled player shouldn't have to rely on luck to efficiently stop a bunker rush. Make SCVs visible, don't let them stay in invulnerability mode for more than half of the bunker's construction time, and for god's sake fix the stupid drones' AI so they don't "forget" about their attack command.
The following are more traditional balance changes:
Viking/Thor
Suggestion: Decrease the anti-air range of either the thor or the viking.
Reasoning: Terran are the race of superranged fighters. Siege Tank ground range: 13. Thor air range: 10. Viking air range: 9.
Zerg have a huge problem dealing with pure terran mech mid and lategame. If the terran transitions to vikings in time even broodlords suck. The combination of thors and vikings both being superranged against air (and the thors having splash), makes it near impossible to defend your broodlords from vikings with corruptors without receiving a dual volley of rape from both the thors and vikings. Hydras are already taken care of by the tanks.
If the viking range is to be decreased, I suggest sluggaslamoo's fix of the moving shot for vikings to be implemented as a "compensator". Also an increase of the viking speed (not as high as in the video below though).
The moving shot and the higher speed would allow skilled players with good mechanics to pull off cute snipes from weird angles. But it would also give the zerg a chance to fungal growth vikings moving too close in order to be able to kill them with corruptors/hydras.
The other solution is lowering the Thor air range. Reasoning? They're good enough not to lose any viability with a range of 8 or 9. 10 range is just sick and over the top.
Marauder
Suggestion: Give marauders' concussive shells a cooldown timer (like the stalker blink).
Reasoning: It seems sensible enough. Gives the other races a chance to escape. Every shot won't be a slowing one.
Medivac
Suggestion: Lower the heal rate. 13.5hp/sec is really high.
Reasoning: There's a reason why Organic Carapace isn't in the game anymore (OP). Even when it was in the game, it only provided for 10hp/sec regeneration for unburrowed roaches as opposed to 13.5hp/sec for Medivacs. Right now burrowed roaches without tunneling claws heal 5hp/sec. With tunneling claws it's 10hp/sec.
A medivac supported army is essentially an army with an organic carapace upgrade. That's not my main beef however. Banelings deal well with that (until terran gets tanks at least). My main beef is the largely undiscovered potential of medivac drop play. Players like Brat_OK are already seen abusing them heavily. Shutting down expansions left and right. Doing quick main raids where half the tech/upgrade buildings die. A good terran can manipulate and constantly keep your army out of position.
Spine crawlers are utterly useless as defense against medivac supported drops. Also, you can't send a small force to deal with the drop, or you run the risk of being outmicroed and outhealed. You have to send a sizeable chunk of your army every single time you get dropped. If boxer played SC2, he'd be having lots of fun.
Additionally, medivacs make it very hard for a zerg to get back in a game after a failed fight. Once the terran has an advantage, the heal rate seals the deal and it's almost always GG.
Disclaimer: I do not expect or think it realistic for all these changes to be implemented. Especially not the last three. The first three ones are the ones I'd like considered the most. Amongst the last three, if I had to choose one, it'd be Viking/Thor range.
Making Bunkers return only 50% of the minerals is a great idea. At the moment, I feel Terran has a few too many nifty little features that the other races dont have a parallel for. Supply Drop and Bunker Salvage seem almost unneccesary and reach the point for me where Terran just blatantly have the most *cute little non-major features* because its their expansion. Something like Brute force expanding with lots of bunkers should have a penalty later on.
Theoretically, Terran macro is the hardest since they dont have hatcheries/warp, so that might be why mule is correspondingly by far the easiest macro mechanic. I think a reasonable change would to be to lower the maximum energy of command centers so that a bad Terran who can't remember to macro and spawn 8 mules without having really lost anything (except temporary income). Don't think it is necessary, however.
I would love a viking range decrease as a Protoss player. You get the Collosi out to deal with the MMM ball and they cam very rapidly hard-counter it with a fairly useful (compared to phoenix and corrupter) unit that can be rapidly pumped. And then their ground forces go back to wtfpwning your ground forces for cost. I am probably just being bias though.
Only thing about the mules lower cost is their repair ability and damage output needs to be really low. Calling down 6 mules anywhere on the map to repair a burning CC would be lame. Plus they would really help with defense as meat shields and extra damage early game
As a Zerg player in 1v1 and a Terran player in team games, I agree with these changes and solutions. They seem sensible enough and wouldn't really break the Terran in anyway. Especially about the Mule stuff. If a Zerg forgets to Inject Larva, it can easily be GG because you will find yourself short of units or drones. If a Terran forgets to Mule, no problem, I'll just drop 2 at once and enjoy the high mineral spike.
Ndugu: "Theoretically, Terran macro is the hardest since they dont have hatcheries/warp, so that might be why mule is correspondingly by far the easiest macro mechanic."
I don't agree, it's not hardest at all since you can queue up units, so theoretically this makes it alot easier, with zerg and protoss you have to be ready to create units exactly at the time the larvae arrive/cooldown completes. One more area where the terran way is more forgiving than both the zerg and protoss.
To LaLush: Great post, I like your ideas. I also realize not all of them could be implemented cause then Terran would be underpowered =)
So this is a nerf terran thread? What about warpgates being redonkulous? or that zerg can make 14!!! drones at once off of 2 bases?
Sorry I just had to get that out; onto the topic:
Bunkers salvage time should definatly be increased, or the money got reduced to 50%, im with you on that.
Mules: Maybe change the ability alltogether? I dont see dropping its energy in favor of making the mule more worthless. Proposed change: Mules are now permanent. Mules now harvest at the same rate as SCVs. Mules can now harvest vespene gas. (basically turns it into a free SCV that can't build structures). Energy cost may need to be increased/decreased for balance.
Thor / Viking range- their range is really long for a reason, and changing that would really require a thoughrough re-work of terran AA in general. I vote no.
Medics / medivacs have always been OP. Terran is the only race that does not have any natural regen at all, so you would expect their heal bus to actually have some effect on combat. Lowering the heal per second would really make the MMM strategy pretty useless.
Marauder: Concussion shell cooldown? That would mean it would probably get one of those stupid atuocast buttons that would never cast when you need it- really increasing micro difficulty for terran infantry. Maybe if while giving it a cooldown you make the ability last significantly longer, and increase the slow%, than that would be OK.
I feel like im the only person in this game having trouble in the TvZ matchup now as the T. Ultras are soo op.
While muling is pretty easy to do, Terran has two other abilities at its CC which are useful, especially scan, which eat up energy. Plus, muling is a pretty weak ability compared to larva inject. Chronoboost seems a bit too short, imo, and it gets the short end of the macro-ability stick. It's demanding to use regularly, requires some strategic thought to use properly when you use it, and it doesn't add that much.
Most of these would affect TvP a lot, a match-up some top players (F91, Loner) consider decidedly P-favored.
A thor AA range nerf is definitely warranted, though. They don't do a lot of damage to non-light as it is, though, as long as you remember to make sure your air army doesn't stack (with the move command).
LaLuSh shhh.. you will attract the terrans who will swore that their race is not only not overpowered but weak! Then they will stalk and harras you on every Tl.net threads. They will also try to troll you in some illogical arguments, and then finally they will disguise themselves as protoss/zerg player and argue why it is so easy for them to own Terran with protoss/zerg.
some interesting points you make, I totally agree with you for bunker and mule changes.
Although I don't think Terran being too strong is the core issue. Zerg is simply too weak.
Putting Roaches and Hydras back to the way they were when beta was released would make the game much better.
The main problem with Zerg isn't that Terran are too strong it is that Zerg don't really have any core units anymore. Hydras and Roaches are pretty much useless now and that only really leaves Mutas and lings/banelings which are countered very hard by almost everything.
Nerfing Terran would improve the game but it wouldn't fix Zerg.
I'm a zerg player myself, and I don't agree with the proposed changes.
It seems like they're all designed around making terran players do more busy work and does not address the real factors that make ZvT difficult to deal with.
The terran macro mechanics are near perfect and it would be a shame to tamper with what works. Getting steam rolled over by a bioball or mech should be zerg's biggest concern, not economy. If your falling behind in economy as zerg, then your not doing it right!
I haven't been in higher level of play yet, but even the aforementioned bio and mech can be dealt with.
"Additionally, medivacs make it very hard for a zerg to get back in a game after a failed fight. Once the terran has an advantage, the heal rate seals the deal and it's almost always GG." You have to be trolling... Seriously there is no other races thats as screwed after a bad fight then terran since warpgate/larva stockpiles can save the day most of the time while terran has to have like 7-8 production buildings all slowly building.
I also agree with most of these changes, i mean, i also dont think they are all good cuz that would probably result in terrans being under powered but some of these would be definitely good. I feel like terran can be much less skilled then i am and he would still win.
On August 03 2010 04:04 Zoltan wrote: So this is a nerf terran thread? What about warpgates being redonkulous? or that zerg can make 14!!! drones at once off of 2 bases?
Sorry I just had to get that out; onto the topic:
Bunkers salvage time should definatly be increased, or the money got reduced to 50%, im with you on that.
Mules: Maybe change the ability alltogether? I dont see dropping its energy in favor of making the mule more worthless. Proposed change: Mules are now permanent. Mules now harvest at the same rate as SCVs. Mules can now harvest vespene gas. (basically turns it into a free SCV that can't build structures). Energy cost may need to be increased/decreased for balance.
Thor / Viking range- their range is really long for a reason, and changing that would really require a thoughrough re-work of terran AA in general. I vote no.
Medics / medivacs have always been OP. Terran is the only race that does not have any natural regen at all, so you would expect their heal bus to actually have some effect on combat. Lowering the heal per second would really make the MMM strategy pretty useless.
Marauder: Concussion shell cooldown? That would mean it would probably get one of those stupid atuocast buttons that would never cast when you need it- really increasing micro difficulty for terran infantry. Maybe if while giving it a cooldown you make the ability last significantly longer, and increase the slow%, than that would be OK.
I feel like im the only person in this game having trouble in the TvZ matchup now as the T. Ultras are soo op.
reducing viking/thor ranges would require Rework of terran AA? I fail to see how you come to that conclusion. Every other race has to deal with not having a screen range on all of their units, reducing it a bit would not change anything one bit, except for making it more reasonable for other races to deal with it.
Lowering Heal per second would not make MMM useless. How do you get that? Medivacs are already dropships and healers in one. Having ridiculous healing rates is even more OP. reducing it so ur units are arent impossible to kill in some situations would be fair.
Good to know I'm not the only one who thinks lowering the viking range and increasing their speed would help make protecting broodlords a bit more viable. The only problem is Vikings might become pretty useless at chasing down Void rays.
Why does no one ever consider just turning thors back to their pre-splash damage state in the beta, where they did more damage per shot, but didn't have splash. I mean really, between missile turrets, stimmed marines and hunter-seeker missiles, it's not like Terran doesn't have plenty of options already to deal with large groups of Mutalisks, is a 48 damage, 10 range, area of effect attack really necessary?
The problem with these balance 'suggestions' is that there are too just too goddamn many of them, and they are made with near complete disregard for other sides of the matchup (and probably even TvZ itself). It falls in the same hole as the WC3 'balance suggestions' where some kid just thinks up of everything he thinks is wrong and tries to correct them by making a huge list of balance changes.
Make small but noticeable changes because it seems like most of the matchups are decently balanced already anyways.
On August 03 2010 04:11 GodIsNotHere wrote: "Additionally, medivacs make it very hard for a zerg to get back in a game after a failed fight. Once the terran has an advantage, the heal rate seals the deal and it's almost always GG." You have to be trolling... Seriously there is no other races thats as screwed after a bad fight then terran since warpgate/larva stockpiles can save the day most of the time while terran has to have like 7-8 production buildings all slowly building.
lol do you even understand what he says? Read again and try to understand, ok ?
As a terran player, I agree with most of your changes but I have a few issues:
Mules: Lowering the energy cost to 15 would make sniping them a lot less effective. Early game, if I lose a MULE to a ling run by (or something similar) it's a fairly big loss. Whilst I agree with the reasoning of lowering the energy (and effectiveness to represent energy change) it would make them a lot less of a priority target.
Supply Depots: I dislike this idea in general, and I rarely wall-off (~20% of the time). Think it's just a personal thing but I just really don't like this idea. It'd make orbital commands even more necessary than at the moment. I'd have to choose between MULEs, scans and this. It's just a bit too much to put on the orbital command. Maybe make it an upgrade per depot for 50minerals or something?
Medivacs: Medivacs are expensive. Burrow is cheap and affects every single zerg unit. Medivacs heal one at a time, and have an energy cost to heal. Whilst I understand that they have a really fast heal rate, they're so expensive that they're hard to mass produce without cutting into your army size. Too many medivacs and your main army is overwhelmed, too few and your army dies after repeated battles. They're also amazingly fragile and easily sniped by just a few hydra shots.
Regarding bunkers, I agree 50% of the returned cost when salveged is a good compromise. Everything else you mentioned I agree with (as long as the ability on the marauders lasts for X amount of time when used, say 2 seconds (or 2 shots or whatever) otherwise it'd be a bit too useless compared to blink).
EPT![[image loading]](http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac330/lalushr/MULE_badmacro.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/3/3d/Depot_Close.png/250px-Depot_Close.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/4/46/Bunker_Close.png/250px-Bunker_Close.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/c/c0/Viking.png/180px-Viking.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/c/c4/Thor_bright.png/180px-Thor_bright.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/f/f2/Marauder.png/171px-Marauder.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/9/9f/Medivac.png/180px-Medivac.png)
