EPTTvZ Balance Suggestions - Page 81
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Cotonou
42 Posts
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ltortoise
633 Posts
On September 15 2010 20:26 Wolfpox wrote: [Here's my prediction: within 6 weeks, people will stop worshiping the "nothing is imbalanced" nonsense of Day9 and realize that in fact Zerg is underpowered and Terran is overpowered. Day9 never said "nothing is imbalanced." And putting it on quotes is not only misleading but extremely insulting to Day9 considering you are falsely attributing things to him that he never said. He said it was too early to tell. Let me repeat myself for you. He never said nothing is imbalanced. He said it was too early to tell. | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21244 Posts
On September 16 2010 02:38 arb wrote: If i recall Terran was almost unplayed until Boxer showed the world how to rape face. *Terran was unplayed until Terran got massively buffed and Zerg/Protoss got nerfed. Boxer didn't magically discover some hidden Terran strategies, he switched from P after he saw Terran is good now lol. | ||
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Fadetowhite
Korea (South)302 Posts
Suggestion: Lower mule energy cost to 10 or 15 (I suggest 15). Nerf the effectiveness of a single MULE correspondingly. Keep their duration timer as is (maybe adjust slightly for a 45 starting energy Orbital to make it fit with a multiplier of 15). Possibly lower MULE health. . how would this make it harder for terran to macro? since they can just save more energy and unleash more mules ? it needs to be changed to be more unforgiving unless i misread if so sorry | ||
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DoomFox
Canada51 Posts
On September 16 2010 03:00 ltortoise wrote: Day9 never said "nothing is imbalanced." And putting it on quotes is not only misleading but extremely insulting to Day9 considering you are falsely attributing things to him that he never said. He said it was too early to tell. Let me repeat myself for you. He never said nothing is imbalanced. He said it was too early to tell. Well to be fair, Day9 was responsible for propagating the myth that Thors don't hardcounter mutas simply because of muta spreading or magic box. I think he's recently changed his tune about this but I remember thinking he was insane for believing this. | ||
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incz
Italy4 Posts
zerg fighting | ||
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
On September 16 2010 03:06 Fadetowhite wrote: how would this make it harder for terran to macro? since they can just save more energy and unleash more mules ? it needs to be changed to be more unforgiving unless i misread if so sorry FAQ: How many mineral patches are there in a main base? 8. With MULE energy set to 15, how many MULEs can you call down with 120 energy? 8 Do MULEs take longer to mine than SCVs? Yes. At which energy level would the proposed change punish you for bad macro ("be more unforgiving")? With MULE duration timer kept the same, even with perfect macro you'd always sit on at least 3 MULEs (slightly more though, as MULEs last a bit longer than the rate at which you can call down a new one). If you get to a point where you forget to macro and gather up 90 energy. That would mean you'd have to call down 6 MULEs simultaneously, and with perfect macro from hereon your 9th MULE would have to be called down onto a mineral line fully saturated by 8 MULEs. I concede that your 6 original MULEs would disappear pretty shortly from that point anyway, but see the next question in the FAQ about that. Was your primary objective in suggesting this change to make the MULE weaker? No, because then it'd be a balance change and Blizzard would never consider implementing it. My goal in suggesting the MULE change was to make macro more mentally taxing on terrans (i.e. they have to check back to their base more often). Also to punish the impostor terrans who suck at macroing (the ones who often accumulate a shitload of energy while doing some cheesy all-in strategy). To increase the difficulty of macroing as you expand and take additional bases (you can't just dump all your MULEs from 3 Orbital Commands on one single base). Also, to balance gold expansions, as they usually only have 6 gold patches. Spamming 6 MULEs on a gold expo, would be the equivalent of 2 MULEs in the game's current state. That would be the maximum you could dump on a gold base unless you'd want to oversaturate it and make your excess MULEs alot more ineffective. Why not just give the call down MULE ability a cooldown? That would be a good solution too. I did shortly consider it when writing the thread, but dismissed it because "it wouldn't be hard enough, it wouldn't address the problem of making macro more mentally taxing and harder as you acquire more bases". But I think it's probably an easier and more elegant solution, that's more in line with how the other macro mechanics are designed. You can't just dump larva inject energy with a queen. You can't stack chrono boosts on a single building. Giving the MULE ability a cooldown similar to larva inject would make your OC energy accumulate just like the Queen's energy accumulates with every missed larva inject. | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
On September 16 2010 03:01 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: *Terran was unplayed until Terran got massively buffed and Zerg/Protoss got nerfed. Boxer didn't magically discover some hidden Terran strategies, he switched from P after he saw Terran is good now lol. boxer had some decent success pre-1.08 as terran as well, he just didn't become bonjwa until those changes like increased dropship speed | ||
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Pekkz
Norway1505 Posts
When you go for that tech you allmost need to be in a commanding lead to be able to defend whats coming in the next few minutes. | ||
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
Early on it's a struggle for Z to survive, the odds are stacked against them. If you do everything right you can win, you do have some great units, it's just so much more unforgiving to play Z; there are so many ways you can lose the game early on. In general, not specifically balance wise, Z feels underdeveloped as a race. They have less units than the other races and only one caster. When people used the Queen offensively they nerfed the speed to discourage it though I guess Dimaga showed that you can still used it. It's just that it feels like T has sooo many options compared to Z, I hope it gets better with the Z expansion. Early Z units: Baneling Zergling Roach (Queen) Early T units: Marauder Marine Reaper Hellion Banshee (Medivac) It's not balance it's just that Z is less diverse Only direct balance think I can think about is that Spine Crawlers should root / unroot MUCH quicker | ||
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deadbutmoving
United States66 Posts
It's just that simple. | ||
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Buffy
Sweden665 Posts
On September 23 2010 08:40 deadbutmoving wrote: I think Blizzard purposely made Zerg hard to play. If you think about it, even during the BW days, Zerg was never meant to be a Newb friendly race. It's just that simple. Having a hard time buying that story really. Seemingly as Blizzard always tried to make it balanced, thinking and designing a race to be "harder" does not really suit any of their intentions or statments really. Probably just a biproduct of design really. | ||
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
On September 16 2010 03:00 ltortoise wrote: Day9 never said "nothing is imbalanced." And putting it on quotes is not only misleading but extremely insulting to Day9 considering you are falsely attributing things to him that he never said. He said it was too early to tell. Let me repeat myself for you. He never said nothing is imbalanced. He said it was too early to tell. There is also the angle that he wants to "make you a better player". "Imbalance" from that angle isn´t solved by arguing on the forums how to convince Blizzard that they make changes so that YOU can win but to argue how you can change your own playstyle to win even against the "imbalance". It would take a lot more than the current state for Day 9 to suggest you´d be a better player by switching from Zerg to Terran. | ||
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hasheek
United States7 Posts
Perhaps your idea would slightly increase the attention Terran players need to pay to their macro mechanic but I think it brings about problems that it solves. First of all, you're actually increasing the value of the mule this way. You've scaled down the effectiveness and energy by a constant amount, which increases the value of the mule over time. Just like super tank that has 3X the health and does 3X the DPS of one normal tank is clearly better than 3 normal tanks (in the simplest context - read: super tank a-move vs 3 tanks in same location), breaking up the mules like this increases value. If probes took 1/2 the time to build, cost 1/2 as much and returned minerals at 1/2 the rate as they did now, you'd be able to build up your economy much faster - its not the same as the current rate. How would the energy changes effect the other two abilities of the OC? You've noticed that your plan would clearly screw up the scan ability, so you've suggested moving it to a different building. You said people would probably mindlessly spam MULEs, instead of scanning. I'm not sure if you meant that people wouldn't understand when it would be a good time to scan rather than call down a MULE, or if you meant people would use MULEs to gain intel by just dropping them in an area where they usually would just scan. Your change would make scouting with mules probably preferable to scans and would actually allow Terran players to scout more frequently. And if the other two abilities stay at the OC, decreasing MULE energy just gives the Terran player more options - instead of having to decide to spend large chunks of energy at once, the Terran could prefer to call down only a few of your "mini-MULES" and be more ready to scan, or use another ability. You could argue this would make the Terran macro mechanic more complicated, perhaps it does, but it would also make them potentially more powerful - which you would perhaps support. In any case, its pretty complicated - not to mention you suggest that lowering a supply depot could be added to the OC as an ability - which complicates things further. Perhaps these points have been beaten to death, over the course of the thread; I didn't read past the first few pages. Perhaps they haven't because my reasoning is flawed, in which case I humbly apologize. | ||
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Kachna
134 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
The main problems that came from Z<T was early game Terran could do 50 billion different things and you could not prepare for all of them. Once Blizzard nerfed that, with the depot b4 rax, and allowing Zerg to expo safer...now balance is headed in the opposite direction lately to Z>T. Nice attempt to bring up an old thread aimed at nerfing Terran even further when they currently are possibly the weakest race - in the same position that Zerg was 1-2 patches ago. | ||
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Slipspace
United States381 Posts
On October 31 2010 12:57 avilo wrote: Why do you bump a thread about Z<T when the game clearly is the opposite direction right now? Is this some intricately planned troll you had come up with? Terran need mules to stay even with the other races at this point in time. The main problems that came from Z<T was early game Terran could do 50 billion different things and you could not prepare for all of them. Once Blizzard nerfed that, with the depot b4 rax, and allowing Zerg to expo safer...now balance is headed in the opposite direction lately to Z>T. Nice attempt to bring up an old thread aimed at nerfing Terran even further when they currently are possibly the weakest race - in the same position that Zerg was 1-2 patches ago. did you read anything he said? he's talking about the suggested changes to the MULE and how it would effect the complication of using energy effectively not once does he indicate his opinion of current race balance, only this functionality | ||
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bokeevboke
Singapore1674 Posts
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jamesltl
Malaysia159 Posts
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hasheek
United States7 Posts
On October 31 2010 12:57 avilo wrote: Why do you bump a thread about Z<T when the game clearly is the opposite direction right now? Is this some intricately planned troll you had come up with? Terran need mules to stay even with the other races at this point in time. The main problems that came from Z<T was early game Terran could do 50 billion different things and you could not prepare for all of them. Once Blizzard nerfed that, with the depot b4 rax, and allowing Zerg to expo safer...now balance is headed in the opposite direction lately to Z>T. Nice attempt to bring up an old thread aimed at nerfing Terran even further when they currently are possibly the weakest race - in the same position that Zerg was 1-2 patches ago. Actually I had no idea the topic was so old. If i had, I probably would not have resurrected it - I stumbled upon it after following a link from another thread. Having said that, my post really had nothing to do with game balance and as I said I wouldn't dare try to comment on it or pretend to understand it. Since no one has posted on this topic in ages its discussion has probably become pretty much irrelevant to the current state of the game, so I guess I'll just leave it at that. | ||
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