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On September 15 2010 05:55 Kaptein[konijn] wrote:
Haven't read the last pages, but I just want to add that a PF costs much more than just the 150 150 to upgrade it. Non-terran players often don't realize that you miss out on a life time of mules and scans, which is worth a LOT.
Where in this case a LOT is < 450 minerals. ie, the cost of a second OC hidden back at base, minus the supply it provides, minus the utility of having another command centre ready when it comes time to expand again.
A lot of terran players forget they can always build a second command centre back at base just for OC usage if they really want to. 
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Norway275 Posts
As long as blizzard only skews a couple of numbers here and there in patches I think we will see Terran on top for a long time. Terran has most options when it comes to builds and tactics... a very well designed race and nearly every unit, tech and ability has good synergy. I doubt that T needed the recent buffs they got in beta, it was just that the terran metagame had just reached a small percentage of its potential. We still see lots of new tricks, tactics coming from T in most tournaments... some for P and to some degree Z. But the thing is that good Z players were the first to use big macro style, not because they are better or smarter players, but because its one of the things zerg has to rely on to compete. I am pretty sure all races will go for solid macro style after most of the gimmicky 1 base or 2 base styles have become outdated. After that I think we will see a problem. Good Z players will have lost the one ace they had up their sleeves. You already see good T players understanding that they can expand and macro as fast as Z and not only that, but keep their expos alot safer, while harassing with the multiple harass options they have.
My point is that T will take the longest to reach its max potential because of all the possibilites, and that we are already seeing them dominate. The syngergy T has is just too good compared to the other races. As I said, its a very well designed race. Too bad the other two arent as well thought out.
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On September 11 2010 12:27 VanGarde wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 12:11 Creation85 wrote:On September 11 2010 10:42 Rabiator wrote:On September 11 2010 08:14 MrCon wrote:
As a T player I agree the salvage thing is weird, I don't even know why that's in the game.
As for MULES, they're fine, they only allow to be on par with the zerg capacity to create multiple workers at once and the protoss capacity to chrono probes and have a quick 3 to 2 worker advantage.
Salvage is in the game as the equivalent of the Zerg ability to move their Crawlers about and put them somewhere else. If salvage has to go that Zerg ability has to go as well ... In any case it is time to let this ancient thread die, because Terran isnt OP as every stupid Zerg always whines, but rather the maps are "disfavoring" [to say it lightly] Zerg. Terran isnt OP because TvP is fine. Unfortunately, TvP isn't fine,, it's in a better shape than ZvT however, Yes, TvP is not fine. Its actually favoring Protoss. Unfortunately most wow pvp players who stroll the TL forums read the TvZ balance threads and assumes that terran must be op across the board.
How does TvP favor protoss?...
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i think the only real balance suggestion that would help TvZ but not harm any other matchup is just completely removing reapers. honestly they are just specifically used as a harassment units and then are never seen again. this unit is why the matchup is tough for zerg because zerg even in BW didnt have hardly any openings so this complaint is just way overused that zerg doent have enough openings. the real problem was, in BW harassment as strong as the reaper never ever came out as quickly in brood war.
terrans either did fast vultures, bunker rushes or marine drops all of which happen significantly later or are significantly weaker than reaper harass and droning is already complicated enough as it is to judge when to drone and when to produce units. honestly if the reaper was harassed it would strengthen zerg early game and terrans still have hellion harass bunker rushes(with salvage) and drops to work with. the reaper is just a terribel unit and is the only unit in sc2 that is absolutely pointless to build at anypoint after the early game. ditch the reaper and the TvZ matchup is pretty much balanced IMO.
btw I'm a terran player and off race as zerg every now and then. im also in diamond low 600-700 diamond but still.
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On September 15 2010 16:20 Raiznhell wrote:
i think the only real balance suggestion that would help TvZ but not harm any other matchup is just completely removing reapers. honestly they are just specifically used as a harassment units and then are never seen again. this unit is why the matchup is tough for zerg because zerg even in BW didnt have hardly any openings so this complaint is just way overused that zerg doent have enough openings. the real problem was, in BW harassment as strong as the reaper never ever came out as quickly in brood war.
terrans either did fast vultures, bunker rushes or marine drops all of which happen significantly later or are significantly weaker than reaper harass and droning is already complicated enough as it is to judge when to drone and when to produce units. honestly if the reaper was harassed it would strengthen zerg early game and terrans still have hellion harass bunker rushes(with salvage) and drops to work with. the reaper is just a terribel unit and is the only unit in sc2 that is absolutely pointless to build at anypoint after the early game. ditch the reaper and the TvZ matchup is pretty much balanced IMO.
btw I'm a terran player and off race as zerg every now and then. im also in diamond low 600-700 diamond but still.
reapers arent the only problem...
Nowhere near the only one.
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reapers a threat but yeah not even the bigger issue here. Hellion opening is imo even worse in terms of how it puts Z into a very specific pattern of defense
and really the bigger deal is the whole "I cant tell what T is doing" and T having very solid defensive options while Z has none so you lose one battle and everything is over whereas T can just turtle up with bunker, tank, repair, more cost effective ranged units, etc.
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On September 15 2010 16:25 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 16:20 Raiznhell wrote:
i think the only real balance suggestion that would help TvZ but not harm any other matchup is just completely removing reapers. honestly they are just specifically used as a harassment units and then are never seen again. this unit is why the matchup is tough for zerg because zerg even in BW didnt have hardly any openings so this complaint is just way overused that zerg doent have enough openings. the real problem was, in BW harassment as strong as the reaper never ever came out as quickly in brood war.
terrans either did fast vultures, bunker rushes or marine drops all of which happen significantly later or are significantly weaker than reaper harass and droning is already complicated enough as it is to judge when to drone and when to produce units. honestly if the reaper was harassed it would strengthen zerg early game and terrans still have hellion harass bunker rushes(with salvage) and drops to work with. the reaper is just a terribel unit and is the only unit in sc2 that is absolutely pointless to build at anypoint after the early game. ditch the reaper and the TvZ matchup is pretty much balanced IMO.
btw I'm a terran player and off race as zerg every now and then. im also in diamond low 600-700 diamond but still. reapers arent the only problem... Nowhere near the only one.
dude. all the other "problems" can be delt with just fine once that zerg macro machine kicks in. if zerg is left to macro hard at the beginning the speed at which their teched units come out can be pretty devastating. with those extra early drones that wern't wasted by early reaper harass either getting killed or making more speedlings/roaches the zerg can get out a very very quick third hatch or even get a critical number of mutalisks out.
the only other "problem" i see is the baneling.
The baneling is awesome. rapes infantry like it's nothing. yeah tanks can get in the way meh. BUT
they suicide... it's like you've tech to get them and if you fail to kill the infantry via a miss-micro you dont got anything left. THIS is the exact reason why lurkers are needed and are so much better. because lurker just devastate infantry with their splash plus burrowing but they dont suicide allowing for future use on the field.
Also when a terran scans and starts using tanks or ravens to kill them they can at least unburrow and move away under cover of say zerglings or hydralisks or something.
most other lurker arguements are kinda BS but THIS ^ is the real reason they are needed.
simply because the curret counter to biomech is a suiciding unit which means you arent really left with a follow-up to just kill the terran after he loses alot of troops.
say what you want about mech imbalance but like i said if zerg gets that early macro goin roaches with hydras into alot of ultralisks or broodlords can easily fuck up mech terran.
"why should zerg have to tech to tier 3 to beat terran tier 2"
well for one reason because thats logical sense that higher tier in tech should be aquired to beat lower tier? lol also zergs either teched defiler/ultra/ling or just made use of rapid tech switches to destroy terran mech in Brood War. This still goes back to reapers tho in that without them zerg can safely drone for the first few minutes without being harassed within just a few minutes of the game which allows everythign to transition a bit quicker.
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On September 15 2010 16:41 red.venom wrote:
reapers a threat but yeah not even the bigger issue here. Hellion opening is imo even worse in terms of how it puts Z into a very specific pattern of defense
and really the bigger deal is the whole "I cant tell what T is doing" and T having very solid defensive options while Z has none so you lose one battle and everything is over whereas T can just turtle up with bunker, tank, repair, more cost effective ranged units, etc.
pretty much every unit and racial feature of Terran is IMBA tbh.... I cant think of 1 zerg unit that is as scary as any T unit....
@Raiznhell: U bronze?.... u bronze!
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On September 15 2010 16:44 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 16:41 red.venom wrote:
reapers a threat but yeah not even the bigger issue here. Hellion opening is imo even worse in terms of how it puts Z into a very specific pattern of defense
and really the bigger deal is the whole "I cant tell what T is doing" and T having very solid defensive options while Z has none so you lose one battle and everything is over whereas T can just turtle up with bunker, tank, repair, more cost effective ranged units, etc. pretty much every unit and racial feature of Terran is IMBA tbh.... I cant think of 1 zerg unit that is as scary as any T unit.... @Raiznhell: U bronze?.... u bronze!
im diamond...
im under the name Raiznevil go look it up...
btw ultralisks and mutas can be very scary in certain situations, same with banelings and when roaches pop up in the middle of you tanks because you forgot that raven or ran out of scans can really scare a terran.
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On September 15 2010 16:47 Raiznhell wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 16:44 kickinhead wrote:On September 15 2010 16:41 red.venom wrote:
reapers a threat but yeah not even the bigger issue here. Hellion opening is imo even worse in terms of how it puts Z into a very specific pattern of defense
and really the bigger deal is the whole "I cant tell what T is doing" and T having very solid defensive options while Z has none so you lose one battle and everything is over whereas T can just turtle up with bunker, tank, repair, more cost effective ranged units, etc. pretty much every unit and racial feature of Terran is IMBA tbh.... I cant think of 1 zerg unit that is as scary as any T unit.... @Raiznhell: U bronze?.... u bronze! im diamond... im under the name Raiznevil go look it up... btw ultralisks and mutas can be very scary in certain situations, same with banelings and when roaches pop up in the middle of you tanks because you forgot that raven or ran out of scans can really scare a terran.
yeah, every unit is scary if u just play bad...
Go back to playing T ignoramus.
And if u don't want a balanced game - go play wow.
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On September 15 2010 16:54 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 16:47 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 16:44 kickinhead wrote:On September 15 2010 16:41 red.venom wrote:
reapers a threat but yeah not even the bigger issue here. Hellion opening is imo even worse in terms of how it puts Z into a very specific pattern of defense
and really the bigger deal is the whole "I cant tell what T is doing" and T having very solid defensive options while Z has none so you lose one battle and everything is over whereas T can just turtle up with bunker, tank, repair, more cost effective ranged units, etc. pretty much every unit and racial feature of Terran is IMBA tbh.... I cant think of 1 zerg unit that is as scary as any T unit.... @Raiznhell: U bronze?.... u bronze! im diamond... im under the name Raiznevil go look it up... btw ultralisks and mutas can be very scary in certain situations, same with banelings and when roaches pop up in the middle of you tanks because you forgot that raven or ran out of scans can really scare a terran. yeah, every unit is scary if u just play bad... Go back to playing T ignoramus. And if u don't want a balanced game - go play wow.
Oh your cool, a WoW reference I bet you actually played that game. People like you are the kind that spoil THIS game. just blatently sit there and call T OP.
ruttin fool...
nobody plays perfectly. hell i actually just watched some games of osgensnare who is one of the very top Terran players and even he makes dumb mistakes sometimes that can cost him the game as i just saw when he played vs sSKS(Tester).
not having energy for scan isn't playing BAD sometimes T needs the extra minerals and it's that key timing that if zerg attacks it can ruin terran. thats what strategy is. Planning, timing, precision, execution and playing off your opponent ie: burrow moving when he lacks detection.
I even called for T nerfs by removing reapers and for Zerg buffs in getting back the lurker and you still just WAH WAH T OP QQ. total nutjob
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On September 15 2010 00:14 Elwar wrote:
I'm wondering what role Blizzard sees for the hydra. At the moment its only really used if air control is taken before the zerg can go mutalisk, or defending against protoss early (and/or attacking if you you're winning anyway).
It loses or is break-even with nearly all the units in the game based on cost. Its far worse than marines and not any more massable. It has the DPS but not the health to make use of it. I mean I guess you could say it needs the support of lings/roaches which tank while it deals damage, but I don't see why it should not be better than a stimmed marauder or stalker which are anti-armored specialists when its also an expensive tier 2 ranged unit that isn't even amored.
I just don't get its role. I'm not the best player ever obviously, but I also don't see pro players do that great with the hydra in regular circumstances (ie. unless they drastically outnumber the opponent). I don't think its shocking most of the top zergs like the mutalisk because it at least grants map control and has a more defined role in terms of what it useful against.
I feel like hydras should be able to do much better against MMM balls and thors, instead of terrible against the first and bad against the second, they should really force the terran to make more tanks or hellions. As-is it doesn't matter what unit you are getting as terran, they all do very very well against the hydra.
Hydras are obviously the Zerg ranged unit. Ranged units usually are a lot better, because they dont need to move much to switch from target to target.
Regarding a comparison between Hydra, Marauder and Stalker I think the Hydra is like the Paladin from Warcraft 2 ... defensive triggered ability (Burrow in this case), while the Marauder is more like the Ogre and has the super-aggressive version (Stim-Pack) and the Stalker has the "so-so" ability (Blink). It sucks to have a defensive ability to save your own hide, but that is what they have and you should learn to live with it. It has been around since BW after all, although SC2 Zerg players tend not to get it. Why they dont is beyond me ...
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On September 15 2010 16:43 Raiznhell wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 16:25 kickinhead wrote:On September 15 2010 16:20 Raiznhell wrote:
i think the only real balance suggestion that would help TvZ but not harm any other matchup is just completely removing reapers. honestly they are just specifically used as a harassment units and then are never seen again. this unit is why the matchup is tough for zerg because zerg even in BW didnt have hardly any openings so this complaint is just way overused that zerg doent have enough openings. the real problem was, in BW harassment as strong as the reaper never ever came out as quickly in brood war.
terrans either did fast vultures, bunker rushes or marine drops all of which happen significantly later or are significantly weaker than reaper harass and droning is already complicated enough as it is to judge when to drone and when to produce units. honestly if the reaper was harassed it would strengthen zerg early game and terrans still have hellion harass bunker rushes(with salvage) and drops to work with. the reaper is just a terribel unit and is the only unit in sc2 that is absolutely pointless to build at anypoint after the early game. ditch the reaper and the TvZ matchup is pretty much balanced IMO.
btw I'm a terran player and off race as zerg every now and then. im also in diamond low 600-700 diamond but still. reapers arent the only problem... Nowhere near the only one. dude. all the other "problems" can be delt with just fine once that zerg macro machine kicks in. if zerg is left to macro hard at the beginning the speed at which their teched units come out can be pretty devastating. with those extra early drones that wern't wasted by early reaper harass either getting killed or making more speedlings/roaches the zerg can get out a very very quick third hatch or even get a critical number of mutalisks out. the only other "problem" i see is the baneling. The baneling is awesome. rapes infantry like it's nothing. yeah tanks can get in the way meh. BUT they suicide... it's like you've tech to get them and if you fail to kill the infantry via a miss-micro you dont got anything left. THIS is the exact reason why lurkers are needed and are so much better. because lurker just devastate infantry with their splash plus burrowing but they dont suicide allowing for future use on the field. Also when a terran scans and starts using tanks or ravens to kill them they can at least unburrow and move away under cover of say zerglings or hydralisks or something. most other lurker arguements are kinda BS but THIS ^ is the real reason they are needed. simply because the curret counter to biomech is a suiciding unit which means you arent really left with a follow-up to just kill the terran after he loses alot of troops. say what you want about mech imbalance but like i said if zerg gets that early macro goin roaches with hydras into alot of ultralisks or broodlords can easily fuck up mech terran. "why should zerg have to tech to tier 3 to beat terran tier 2" well for one reason because thats logical sense that higher tier in tech should be aquired to beat lower tier? lol also zergs either teched defiler/ultra/ling or just made use of rapid tech switches to destroy terran mech in Brood War. This still goes back to reapers tho in that without them zerg can safely drone for the first few minutes without being harassed within just a few minutes of the game which allows everythign to transition a bit quicker.
Zerg have no effective way to spend all those minerals. They are so gas limited they just throw away minerals on Zerglings. The Roach is their only effective mineral dump but it is hard countered by the Marauders in ZvT.
Your post actually makes me wonder if you actually play this game since you said higher tier should be required to beat lower tier. A huge part of the problem is Terran can beat Tier 2 and Tier 3 with just Tier 1 plus Medivacs. I'm not saying those units are the only problem, I think it will eventually become apparent that almost every Terran unit was overtuned.
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On September 15 2010 17:33 Grond wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 16:43 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 16:25 kickinhead wrote:On September 15 2010 16:20 Raiznhell wrote:
i think the only real balance suggestion that would help TvZ but not harm any other matchup is just completely removing reapers. honestly they are just specifically used as a harassment units and then are never seen again. this unit is why the matchup is tough for zerg because zerg even in BW didnt have hardly any openings so this complaint is just way overused that zerg doent have enough openings. the real problem was, in BW harassment as strong as the reaper never ever came out as quickly in brood war.
terrans either did fast vultures, bunker rushes or marine drops all of which happen significantly later or are significantly weaker than reaper harass and droning is already complicated enough as it is to judge when to drone and when to produce units. honestly if the reaper was harassed it would strengthen zerg early game and terrans still have hellion harass bunker rushes(with salvage) and drops to work with. the reaper is just a terribel unit and is the only unit in sc2 that is absolutely pointless to build at anypoint after the early game. ditch the reaper and the TvZ matchup is pretty much balanced IMO.
btw I'm a terran player and off race as zerg every now and then. im also in diamond low 600-700 diamond but still. reapers arent the only problem... Nowhere near the only one. dude. all the other "problems" can be delt with just fine once that zerg macro machine kicks in. if zerg is left to macro hard at the beginning the speed at which their teched units come out can be pretty devastating. with those extra early drones that wern't wasted by early reaper harass either getting killed or making more speedlings/roaches the zerg can get out a very very quick third hatch or even get a critical number of mutalisks out. the only other "problem" i see is the baneling. The baneling is awesome. rapes infantry like it's nothing. yeah tanks can get in the way meh. BUT they suicide... it's like you've tech to get them and if you fail to kill the infantry via a miss-micro you dont got anything left. THIS is the exact reason why lurkers are needed and are so much better. because lurker just devastate infantry with their splash plus burrowing but they dont suicide allowing for future use on the field. Also when a terran scans and starts using tanks or ravens to kill them they can at least unburrow and move away under cover of say zerglings or hydralisks or something. most other lurker arguements are kinda BS but THIS ^ is the real reason they are needed. simply because the curret counter to biomech is a suiciding unit which means you arent really left with a follow-up to just kill the terran after he loses alot of troops. say what you want about mech imbalance but like i said if zerg gets that early macro goin roaches with hydras into alot of ultralisks or broodlords can easily fuck up mech terran. "why should zerg have to tech to tier 3 to beat terran tier 2" well for one reason because thats logical sense that higher tier in tech should be aquired to beat lower tier? lol also zergs either teched defiler/ultra/ling or just made use of rapid tech switches to destroy terran mech in Brood War. This still goes back to reapers tho in that without them zerg can safely drone for the first few minutes without being harassed within just a few minutes of the game which allows everythign to transition a bit quicker. Zerg have no way effective way to spend all those minerals. They are so gas limited they just throw away minerals on Zerglings. The Roach is their only effective mineral dump but it is hard countered by the Marauders in ZvT. Your post actually makes me wonder if you actually play this game since you said higher tier should be required to beat lower tier. A huge part of the problem is Terran can beat Tier 2 and Tier 3 with just Tier 1 plus Medivacs. I'm not saying those units are the only problem, I think it will eventually become apparent that almost every Terran unit was overtuned.
Dude like i said before im diamond only 600-700 diamond but still diamond league under the name Raiznevil if you dont believe that i play this game go look it up... also anything bio is pulverized by banelings mixed into the army. roach/baneling/muta is incredibly strong right now it's just getting it up is the problem and bout dumping extra minerals.....im not sure if YOU play this game because the obvious place to dump extra minerals is obviously on hmmm let's say
HATCHERIES
MORE QUEENS FOR CREEP TUMORS AND EARLY AA
ZERGLINGS
** DRONES ** <- big big option
OVERLORDS <- a ton of overlords allows for not being supply blocked, allows for extra overlords to sacrifice for scouting info, alot of overlords could mean alot of drops, overlords all spread out all over the map like say how IDRA does provides a ton of infromation on the whereabouts of expansions and where his army is.
i cant believe you actually think theres nothing to dump minerals on thats just the dumbest thing i've heard regarding zerg.
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Why is this thread still open? Another thread just got locked cuz suggestion threads aren't allowed
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Some ideas i had.. Cant put them all in i realize this. Not sure if some of them were already talked about or not cuz i didnt read all 80 pages of this thread. So if they were you can ignore what i said. Anyways heres my thoughts of possibilities that would make ZvT Easier.
Burrow
1)Units Burrowed now regenerat
2)Burrow now reduces the time it takes for spine crawlers and spore crawlers to root.
3)Burrow Ultralisks can now move while underground
4)Reduce burrow from 100/100 to 50/50
5)IDecreases Nydus worm's build time
Mule
1) Reduce the amount of time it can harvest
2) Reduce the amount it can harvest
3) Create a cooldown of 82 seconds on mules per OC
Overlords
1) Increase the speed of upgraded OLs
2) Decrease the cost of OL Speed from 100 / 100 to 50/50
Marauders
1) Up stim's cost from 20hp to 25hp. ( Currently stim takes 16% of a marauders health. This would increase it to 20%. Marrines take 10hp out of 45. So it's 22%hp to stim for a marine, 18% to stim with shield upgraded.)
2) Only deals 50% damage to buildings
Structures
1) Are no longer armored. They have a new armor type considered structure. This would greatly decrease marauder and reaper play and make spine crawlers more useful.
2) Give them more HP
Hatchery
1) When eggs cancel they now go back into being a larva
2) Hatch larva spawns every 12 seconds instead of every 15 ( In-game time btw )
3) Decrease hatchery's build time from 100 to 80
Mutalisk
1) Correct first level of attack upgrade. Currently mutalisk scale their upgrade as follows
Level 0 = 0+ damage ( 9/3/1 )
Level 1 = +3 damage ( 10/4/2 ) Cost 100/100
Level2 = +4 damage ( 11/4/2 ) Cost 175 / 175
Level 3 = +5 damage (12/4/2 ) Cost 250 / 250
New scale would like like this.
Level 0 = 0+ damage ( 9/3/1 )
Level 1 = +3 damage ( 10/4/2 ) Cost 100/100
Level2 = +5 damage ( 11/4/2 ) Cost 175 / 175
Level 3 = +7 damage (12/5/3 ) Cost 250 / 250
2) Mutalisk spire now 80 seconds from 100
Repair
1) Costs 50% to repair instead of 25%. Currently takes 75minerals 50 gas to repair a thor from 3hp to full. While building the thor takes 300 mineral / 200 gas. Even if it was reduced to half it still a considerable amount of resources saved just not as strong.
2) Repair time on units and buildings increased
3) Repair on PF now has a cap, Only a certain % can be reapired at a time, You cant have 30 SCVs making it invincible.
4) Repair on units and buildings now repair at the same rate ( the rate at which they repair buildings not units )
5) SCV repairing now have the highest priority rate for attacking units
Planetary Fortress
1) Cost increased
2) Spash removed
3) Lowered damage
4) Lower health
5) A cap for repair rate
Hyrdalisk
1) Moves faster off creep. ( Remove the 50% bonus on creep from hyrdas and make it 25% like other units. new stats would be
OLD Hyrda
2.25 + 1.12 = 3.37 on Creep
2.25 off creep
New hyrda
2.81 + 0.56 = 3.37 on creep
2.81 off creep
3)Upgrade decreased in cost or upgrade is revisioned
Banelings
1) Baneling speed upgrade increases their movement more, So if they have the upgrad and on creep they can catch up to stim marines and actually blew up on a bio ball. If they are off creep they can't catch up, Something along those lines
2) Increase hp from 30 to 35
3) You can now load banelings into a spore crawler ( kinda like a nydus worm ) which then can be selected and have a area where you can shot the baneling and have it explode on impact. Range = 9 - 13
4) Up damage from 80 to 120 on buildings
Roach
1) Decrease food to 1.5
2) Increase armor from 1 to 2 ( would help a lot vs marines )
3) Increase movement speed.
4) Remove the shadows that the opponent can see while they move underground
5) Increase their damage
6) Increase range to 3.5 ( kinda for reapers and hellions )
Reaper
1) Decrease range from 4.5 to 3 ( plenty of room to kite zerglings still just not roaches )
2) Decrease upgraded movement speed
3) Increase the cost and time of movement speed
4) Increase production time
5) increase food from 1 to 2
6) Remove D-8 Charge
Terran Build time
1) Barracks now 65 seconds up from 60, ( Would be on par with spawning pools and gateways )
2) Factory Increase build time from 60 to 65
3) Starport Increase build time from 50 to 60
( This would help with alot of tech switches terrans do. Marines into hellions into banshees into marauders into thors. I don't think the devs intended terran to have the best tech switches in the game )
Bunkers
1) Increase build time
2) Increase cost
3) Increase salvage time
4) Give a % based on much hp it has left when salvaged. 200hp out of 400 would give you a 50% return
5) Gives you a base % return, 25%, 50% for example.
6) Increase build time
7) Make SCV MORE VISABLE so you can actually have drones attack them while they are building. -_-
Spore Crawler
1) Decrease cost, Currently queen are better choices IMO than spores
2) Increase the range. You can place 3 in a triangle around ur minerals and banshees can still snipe your drones
3) Decrease root time
Spine Crawler
1) Decrease root time
Banshees
1) Decrease range
2) Decrease damage
3) Create damage so it has slightly lower DPS but has to 3 shot workers now instead of 2 shots.
Hellions
1) Decrease range
2) Increase cost
Thors
1) Decrease range. Ground and air, 4 Real.
Infestor
1) Neural Pariste no longer a upgrade
2) Last forever
3) Increase range
4) Increase hp
5) Infested marines now hatch faster. making them not just a HP Ball to soak up some damage in fights. ( i know they can be used to harass very well but in fights they take forever to hatch )
6) Infested marine egg ball thing now dies as fast as a hatchery egg instead.
Nydus worm
1) if burrow has been upgraded, nydus worms now can burrow back into the ground. While burrowed it cannot poop out units.
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My one hope, is that that Hydra will find its place in the swarm, cause this unit is so freaking cool. Would letting it have 90hp again really be overpowered? Or let it atleast walk faster off-creep, it is a snail now compared to the other units. Hell, I dont even mind a speed upgrade for it.
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On September 15 2010 17:24 Rabiator wrote:
Hydras are obviously the Zerg ranged unit. Ranged units usually are a lot better, because they dont need to move much to switch from target to target.
Regarding a comparison between Hydra, Marauder and Stalker I think the Hydra is like the Paladin from Warcraft 2 ... defensive triggered ability (Burrow in this case), while the Marauder is more like the Ogre and has the super-aggressive version (Stim-Pack) and the Stalker has the "so-so" ability (Blink). It sucks to have a defensive ability to save your own hide, but that is what they have and you should learn to live with it. It has been around since BW after all, although SC2 Zerg players tend not to get it. Why they dont is beyond me ...
The hydra is a mediocre ranged unit though. That was my point. It breaks even or loses to every other ranged unit in the game which all happen to also have special abilities that make them even better value.
Burrow on hydras is useless for a couple of reasons. Namely you never want to unburrow into an enemy army with hydras, and nearly every good terran player will scan ahead anyway. At best if the opponent has no detection you could use burrow micro to save hydra numbers, but since hydras actually take substantially longer than roaches to burrow/unburrow, and get no health regeneration bonus, all you're doing is taking extra hits and reducing your DPS further (and after the fight they're all one scan away from death anyway).
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On September 15 2010 17:40 Raiznhell wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 17:33 Grond wrote:On September 15 2010 16:43 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 16:25 kickinhead wrote:On September 15 2010 16:20 Raiznhell wrote:
i think the only real balance suggestion that would help TvZ but not harm any other matchup is just completely removing reapers. honestly they are just specifically used as a harassment units and then are never seen again. this unit is why the matchup is tough for zerg because zerg even in BW didnt have hardly any openings so this complaint is just way overused that zerg doent have enough openings. the real problem was, in BW harassment as strong as the reaper never ever came out as quickly in brood war.
terrans either did fast vultures, bunker rushes or marine drops all of which happen significantly later or are significantly weaker than reaper harass and droning is already complicated enough as it is to judge when to drone and when to produce units. honestly if the reaper was harassed it would strengthen zerg early game and terrans still have hellion harass bunker rushes(with salvage) and drops to work with. the reaper is just a terribel unit and is the only unit in sc2 that is absolutely pointless to build at anypoint after the early game. ditch the reaper and the TvZ matchup is pretty much balanced IMO.
btw I'm a terran player and off race as zerg every now and then. im also in diamond low 600-700 diamond but still. reapers arent the only problem... Nowhere near the only one. dude. all the other "problems" can be delt with just fine once that zerg macro machine kicks in. if zerg is left to macro hard at the beginning the speed at which their teched units come out can be pretty devastating. with those extra early drones that wern't wasted by early reaper harass either getting killed or making more speedlings/roaches the zerg can get out a very very quick third hatch or even get a critical number of mutalisks out. the only other "problem" i see is the baneling. The baneling is awesome. rapes infantry like it's nothing. yeah tanks can get in the way meh. BUT they suicide... it's like you've tech to get them and if you fail to kill the infantry via a miss-micro you dont got anything left. THIS is the exact reason why lurkers are needed and are so much better. because lurker just devastate infantry with their splash plus burrowing but they dont suicide allowing for future use on the field. Also when a terran scans and starts using tanks or ravens to kill them they can at least unburrow and move away under cover of say zerglings or hydralisks or something. most other lurker arguements are kinda BS but THIS ^ is the real reason they are needed. simply because the curret counter to biomech is a suiciding unit which means you arent really left with a follow-up to just kill the terran after he loses alot of troops. say what you want about mech imbalance but like i said if zerg gets that early macro goin roaches with hydras into alot of ultralisks or broodlords can easily fuck up mech terran. "why should zerg have to tech to tier 3 to beat terran tier 2" well for one reason because thats logical sense that higher tier in tech should be aquired to beat lower tier? lol also zergs either teched defiler/ultra/ling or just made use of rapid tech switches to destroy terran mech in Brood War. This still goes back to reapers tho in that without them zerg can safely drone for the first few minutes without being harassed within just a few minutes of the game which allows everythign to transition a bit quicker. Zerg have no way effective way to spend all those minerals. They are so gas limited they just throw away minerals on Zerglings. The Roach is their only effective mineral dump but it is hard countered by the Marauders in ZvT. Your post actually makes me wonder if you actually play this game since you said higher tier should be required to beat lower tier. A huge part of the problem is Terran can beat Tier 2 and Tier 3 with just Tier 1 plus Medivacs. I'm not saying those units are the only problem, I think it will eventually become apparent that almost every Terran unit was overtuned. Dude like i said before im diamond only 600-700 diamond but still diamond league under the name Raiznevil if you dont believe that i play this game go look it up... also anything bio is pulverized by banelings mixed into the army. roach/baneling/muta is incredibly strong right now it's just getting it up is the problem and bout dumping extra minerals.....im not sure if YOU play this game because the obvious place to dump extra minerals is obviously on hmmm let's say HATCHERIES MORE QUEENS FOR CREEP TUMORS AND EARLY AA ZERGLINGS ** DRONES ** <- big big option OVERLORDS <- a ton of overlords allows for not being supply blocked, allows for extra overlords to sacrifice for scouting info, alot of overlords could mean alot of drops, overlords all spread out all over the map like say how IDRA does provides a ton of infromation on the whereabouts of expansions and where his army is. i cant believe you actually think theres nothing to dump minerals on thats just the dumbest thing i've heard regarding zerg.
600 Diamond Terran translates into what? Bronze Zerg?
Investing money in economic units and structures you can't defend only works versus bad players. I doubt your suggestion of building Queens and Overlords is going to give any of the Zerg players a Eureka moment.
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It's been said before, but is worth repeating. The issue isn't that Terran is overpowered. Look at Brood War, an awesome game, and what makes it so good is that every race is insanely overpowered, with super abilities, like Dark Swarm, irradiate and stasis. The solution to zerg isn't to nerf terrans, TvP is fine. The solution is to buff zerg. Z is also the obviously weaker race against Protoss as well, it's not just Terrans that are causing the problem. Zerg right now has no offensive oppeners, there is all in 6 pool, and nothing else. Until Lair + Spire zerg can't do anything against a defense Terran OR Protoss. That's the problem.
Zerg needs a buff that will allow it to actually be offensive and harrass in the early game. Nerfing T isn't going to do anything but throw TvP out of whack.
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EPT
