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I think all attempts of nerfing Terran are stupid because it would ruin TvP which is fine currently.
Much rather Zerg needs one or two additional units. First step in my mind would be bringing back lurkers as a T2 upgrade for roaches to allow more tactical variation for zerg. Also maybe the idea of making Hydras T2 was fail all way long...
Lalush had way better posts than this opening post to be honest. I think all these changes actually totally suck as they would make terran the most complicated race at an instant and would deeply impact TvP.
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On September 15 2010 17:55 Grond wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 17:40 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 17:33 Grond wrote:On September 15 2010 16:43 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 16:25 kickinhead wrote:On September 15 2010 16:20 Raiznhell wrote:
i think the only real balance suggestion that would help TvZ but not harm any other matchup is just completely removing reapers. honestly they are just specifically used as a harassment units and then are never seen again. this unit is why the matchup is tough for zerg because zerg even in BW didnt have hardly any openings so this complaint is just way overused that zerg doent have enough openings. the real problem was, in BW harassment as strong as the reaper never ever came out as quickly in brood war.
terrans either did fast vultures, bunker rushes or marine drops all of which happen significantly later or are significantly weaker than reaper harass and droning is already complicated enough as it is to judge when to drone and when to produce units. honestly if the reaper was harassed it would strengthen zerg early game and terrans still have hellion harass bunker rushes(with salvage) and drops to work with. the reaper is just a terribel unit and is the only unit in sc2 that is absolutely pointless to build at anypoint after the early game. ditch the reaper and the TvZ matchup is pretty much balanced IMO.
btw I'm a terran player and off race as zerg every now and then. im also in diamond low 600-700 diamond but still. reapers arent the only problem... Nowhere near the only one. dude. all the other "problems" can be delt with just fine once that zerg macro machine kicks in. if zerg is left to macro hard at the beginning the speed at which their teched units come out can be pretty devastating. with those extra early drones that wern't wasted by early reaper harass either getting killed or making more speedlings/roaches the zerg can get out a very very quick third hatch or even get a critical number of mutalisks out. the only other "problem" i see is the baneling. The baneling is awesome. rapes infantry like it's nothing. yeah tanks can get in the way meh. BUT they suicide... it's like you've tech to get them and if you fail to kill the infantry via a miss-micro you dont got anything left. THIS is the exact reason why lurkers are needed and are so much better. because lurker just devastate infantry with their splash plus burrowing but they dont suicide allowing for future use on the field. Also when a terran scans and starts using tanks or ravens to kill them they can at least unburrow and move away under cover of say zerglings or hydralisks or something. most other lurker arguements are kinda BS but THIS ^ is the real reason they are needed. simply because the curret counter to biomech is a suiciding unit which means you arent really left with a follow-up to just kill the terran after he loses alot of troops. say what you want about mech imbalance but like i said if zerg gets that early macro goin roaches with hydras into alot of ultralisks or broodlords can easily fuck up mech terran. "why should zerg have to tech to tier 3 to beat terran tier 2" well for one reason because thats logical sense that higher tier in tech should be aquired to beat lower tier? lol also zergs either teched defiler/ultra/ling or just made use of rapid tech switches to destroy terran mech in Brood War. This still goes back to reapers tho in that without them zerg can safely drone for the first few minutes without being harassed within just a few minutes of the game which allows everythign to transition a bit quicker. Zerg have no way effective way to spend all those minerals. They are so gas limited they just throw away minerals on Zerglings. The Roach is their only effective mineral dump but it is hard countered by the Marauders in ZvT. Your post actually makes me wonder if you actually play this game since you said higher tier should be required to beat lower tier. A huge part of the problem is Terran can beat Tier 2 and Tier 3 with just Tier 1 plus Medivacs. I'm not saying those units are the only problem, I think it will eventually become apparent that almost every Terran unit was overtuned. Dude like i said before im diamond only 600-700 diamond but still diamond league under the name Raiznevil if you dont believe that i play this game go look it up... also anything bio is pulverized by banelings mixed into the army. roach/baneling/muta is incredibly strong right now it's just getting it up is the problem and bout dumping extra minerals.....im not sure if YOU play this game because the obvious place to dump extra minerals is obviously on hmmm let's say HATCHERIES MORE QUEENS FOR CREEP TUMORS AND EARLY AA ZERGLINGS ** DRONES ** <- big big option OVERLORDS <- a ton of overlords allows for not being supply blocked, allows for extra overlords to sacrifice for scouting info, alot of overlords could mean alot of drops, overlords all spread out all over the map like say how IDRA does provides a ton of infromation on the whereabouts of expansions and where his army is. i cant believe you actually think theres nothing to dump minerals on thats just the dumbest thing i've heard regarding zerg. 600 Diamond Terran translates into what? Bronze Zerg? Investing money in economic units and structures you can't defend only works versus bad players. I doubt your suggestion of building Queens and Overlords is going to give any of the Zerg players a Eureka moment.
LOL at least i'm good enough not to understand that if i got money i should spend it on something lololol. what a joke.
this is why YOU are not in diamond.
how does investing money in anything good against only bad players? the whole point of the game is to invest money in things. and if so you say have a ton of extra minerals then try spending it noob.
ur gold 1v1 for a reason, because you dont build anything and just QQ about terran too much.
and EVERY race is gas intense btw. 1 tank costs 125 gas, a thor costs 200, each factory and starport required to build each unit costs 100 gas wheras zerg only have to build 1 tech structure for whatever tech option they want and just mass units out of hatcheries which is why you dump minerals on hatecheries and overlords fool.
and you can never have too many drones as zerg incase you expand or get harassed so thats why you dump minerals on those. zerglings can change into banelings so they have alot of function so they are good mineral dumps too.
maybe you should try having a eureka moment from this and quit cryin
L2P fool.
User was warned for this post
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On September 15 2010 18:17 Raiznhell wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 17:55 Grond wrote:On September 15 2010 17:40 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 17:33 Grond wrote:On September 15 2010 16:43 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 16:25 kickinhead wrote:On September 15 2010 16:20 Raiznhell wrote:
i think the only real balance suggestion that would help TvZ but not harm any other matchup is just completely removing reapers. honestly they are just specifically used as a harassment units and then are never seen again. this unit is why the matchup is tough for zerg because zerg even in BW didnt have hardly any openings so this complaint is just way overused that zerg doent have enough openings. the real problem was, in BW harassment as strong as the reaper never ever came out as quickly in brood war.
terrans either did fast vultures, bunker rushes or marine drops all of which happen significantly later or are significantly weaker than reaper harass and droning is already complicated enough as it is to judge when to drone and when to produce units. honestly if the reaper was harassed it would strengthen zerg early game and terrans still have hellion harass bunker rushes(with salvage) and drops to work with. the reaper is just a terribel unit and is the only unit in sc2 that is absolutely pointless to build at anypoint after the early game. ditch the reaper and the TvZ matchup is pretty much balanced IMO.
btw I'm a terran player and off race as zerg every now and then. im also in diamond low 600-700 diamond but still. reapers arent the only problem... Nowhere near the only one. dude. all the other "problems" can be delt with just fine once that zerg macro machine kicks in. if zerg is left to macro hard at the beginning the speed at which their teched units come out can be pretty devastating. with those extra early drones that wern't wasted by early reaper harass either getting killed or making more speedlings/roaches the zerg can get out a very very quick third hatch or even get a critical number of mutalisks out. the only other "problem" i see is the baneling. The baneling is awesome. rapes infantry like it's nothing. yeah tanks can get in the way meh. BUT they suicide... it's like you've tech to get them and if you fail to kill the infantry via a miss-micro you dont got anything left. THIS is the exact reason why lurkers are needed and are so much better. because lurker just devastate infantry with their splash plus burrowing but they dont suicide allowing for future use on the field. Also when a terran scans and starts using tanks or ravens to kill them they can at least unburrow and move away under cover of say zerglings or hydralisks or something. most other lurker arguements are kinda BS but THIS ^ is the real reason they are needed. simply because the curret counter to biomech is a suiciding unit which means you arent really left with a follow-up to just kill the terran after he loses alot of troops. say what you want about mech imbalance but like i said if zerg gets that early macro goin roaches with hydras into alot of ultralisks or broodlords can easily fuck up mech terran. "why should zerg have to tech to tier 3 to beat terran tier 2" well for one reason because thats logical sense that higher tier in tech should be aquired to beat lower tier? lol also zergs either teched defiler/ultra/ling or just made use of rapid tech switches to destroy terran mech in Brood War. This still goes back to reapers tho in that without them zerg can safely drone for the first few minutes without being harassed within just a few minutes of the game which allows everythign to transition a bit quicker. Zerg have no way effective way to spend all those minerals. They are so gas limited they just throw away minerals on Zerglings. The Roach is their only effective mineral dump but it is hard countered by the Marauders in ZvT. Your post actually makes me wonder if you actually play this game since you said higher tier should be required to beat lower tier. A huge part of the problem is Terran can beat Tier 2 and Tier 3 with just Tier 1 plus Medivacs. I'm not saying those units are the only problem, I think it will eventually become apparent that almost every Terran unit was overtuned. Dude like i said before im diamond only 600-700 diamond but still diamond league under the name Raiznevil if you dont believe that i play this game go look it up... also anything bio is pulverized by banelings mixed into the army. roach/baneling/muta is incredibly strong right now it's just getting it up is the problem and bout dumping extra minerals.....im not sure if YOU play this game because the obvious place to dump extra minerals is obviously on hmmm let's say HATCHERIES MORE QUEENS FOR CREEP TUMORS AND EARLY AA ZERGLINGS ** DRONES ** <- big big option OVERLORDS <- a ton of overlords allows for not being supply blocked, allows for extra overlords to sacrifice for scouting info, alot of overlords could mean alot of drops, overlords all spread out all over the map like say how IDRA does provides a ton of infromation on the whereabouts of expansions and where his army is. i cant believe you actually think theres nothing to dump minerals on thats just the dumbest thing i've heard regarding zerg. 600 Diamond Terran translates into what? Bronze Zerg? Investing money in economic units and structures you can't defend only works versus bad players. I doubt your suggestion of building Queens and Overlords is going to give any of the Zerg players a Eureka moment. LOL at least i'm good enough not to understand that if i got money i should spend it on something lololol. what a joke. this is why YOU are not in diamond. how does investing money in anything good against only bad players? the whole point of the game is to invest money in things. and if so you say have a ton of extra minerals then try spending it noob. ur gold 1v1 for a reason, because you dont build anything and just QQ about terran too much. and EVERY race is gas intense btw. 1 tank costs 125 gas, a thor costs 200, each factory and starport required to build each unit costs 100 gas wheras zerg only have to build 1 tech structure for whatever tech option they want and just mass units out of hatcheries which is why you dump minerals on hatecheries and overlords fool. and you can never have too many drones as zerg incase you expand or get harassed so thats why you dump minerals on those. zerglings can change into banelings so they have alot of function so they are good mineral dumps too. maybe you should try having a eureka moment from this and quit cryin L2P fool.
U talk like being a 600 diamond T is sth to be proud of.... I'm 1200 dia-zerg - suck on that!
don't even talk about creative or "smart" play s Z; u can't play cute stuff if u loose against the first rush....
And zerglings r soooo bad - by far the worst T1-unit and mineral-dump.
User was warned for this post
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On September 15 2010 18:17 Raiznhell wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 17:55 Grond wrote:On September 15 2010 17:40 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 17:33 Grond wrote:On September 15 2010 16:43 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 16:25 kickinhead wrote:On September 15 2010 16:20 Raiznhell wrote:
i think the only real balance suggestion that would help TvZ but not harm any other matchup is just completely removing reapers. honestly they are just specifically used as a harassment units and then are never seen again. this unit is why the matchup is tough for zerg because zerg even in BW didnt have hardly any openings so this complaint is just way overused that zerg doent have enough openings. the real problem was, in BW harassment as strong as the reaper never ever came out as quickly in brood war.
terrans either did fast vultures, bunker rushes or marine drops all of which happen significantly later or are significantly weaker than reaper harass and droning is already complicated enough as it is to judge when to drone and when to produce units. honestly if the reaper was harassed it would strengthen zerg early game and terrans still have hellion harass bunker rushes(with salvage) and drops to work with. the reaper is just a terribel unit and is the only unit in sc2 that is absolutely pointless to build at anypoint after the early game. ditch the reaper and the TvZ matchup is pretty much balanced IMO.
btw I'm a terran player and off race as zerg every now and then. im also in diamond low 600-700 diamond but still. reapers arent the only problem... Nowhere near the only one. dude. all the other "problems" can be delt with just fine once that zerg macro machine kicks in. if zerg is left to macro hard at the beginning the speed at which their teched units come out can be pretty devastating. with those extra early drones that wern't wasted by early reaper harass either getting killed or making more speedlings/roaches the zerg can get out a very very quick third hatch or even get a critical number of mutalisks out. the only other "problem" i see is the baneling. The baneling is awesome. rapes infantry like it's nothing. yeah tanks can get in the way meh. BUT they suicide... it's like you've tech to get them and if you fail to kill the infantry via a miss-micro you dont got anything left. THIS is the exact reason why lurkers are needed and are so much better. because lurker just devastate infantry with their splash plus burrowing but they dont suicide allowing for future use on the field. Also when a terran scans and starts using tanks or ravens to kill them they can at least unburrow and move away under cover of say zerglings or hydralisks or something. most other lurker arguements are kinda BS but THIS ^ is the real reason they are needed. simply because the curret counter to biomech is a suiciding unit which means you arent really left with a follow-up to just kill the terran after he loses alot of troops. say what you want about mech imbalance but like i said if zerg gets that early macro goin roaches with hydras into alot of ultralisks or broodlords can easily fuck up mech terran. "why should zerg have to tech to tier 3 to beat terran tier 2" well for one reason because thats logical sense that higher tier in tech should be aquired to beat lower tier? lol also zergs either teched defiler/ultra/ling or just made use of rapid tech switches to destroy terran mech in Brood War. This still goes back to reapers tho in that without them zerg can safely drone for the first few minutes without being harassed within just a few minutes of the game which allows everythign to transition a bit quicker. Zerg have no way effective way to spend all those minerals. They are so gas limited they just throw away minerals on Zerglings. The Roach is their only effective mineral dump but it is hard countered by the Marauders in ZvT. Your post actually makes me wonder if you actually play this game since you said higher tier should be required to beat lower tier. A huge part of the problem is Terran can beat Tier 2 and Tier 3 with just Tier 1 plus Medivacs. I'm not saying those units are the only problem, I think it will eventually become apparent that almost every Terran unit was overtuned. Dude like i said before im diamond only 600-700 diamond but still diamond league under the name Raiznevil if you dont believe that i play this game go look it up... also anything bio is pulverized by banelings mixed into the army. roach/baneling/muta is incredibly strong right now it's just getting it up is the problem and bout dumping extra minerals.....im not sure if YOU play this game because the obvious place to dump extra minerals is obviously on hmmm let's say HATCHERIES MORE QUEENS FOR CREEP TUMORS AND EARLY AA ZERGLINGS ** DRONES ** <- big big option OVERLORDS <- a ton of overlords allows for not being supply blocked, allows for extra overlords to sacrifice for scouting info, alot of overlords could mean alot of drops, overlords all spread out all over the map like say how IDRA does provides a ton of infromation on the whereabouts of expansions and where his army is. i cant believe you actually think theres nothing to dump minerals on thats just the dumbest thing i've heard regarding zerg. 600 Diamond Terran translates into what? Bronze Zerg? Investing money in economic units and structures you can't defend only works versus bad players. I doubt your suggestion of building Queens and Overlords is going to give any of the Zerg players a Eureka moment. LOL at least i'm good enough not to understand that if i got money i should spend it on something lololol. what a joke. this is why YOU are not in diamond. how does investing money in anything good against only bad players? the whole point of the game is to invest money in things. and if so you say have a ton of extra minerals then try spending it noob. ur gold 1v1 for a reason, because you dont build anything and just QQ about terran too much. and EVERY race is gas intense btw. 1 tank costs 125 gas, a thor costs 200, each factory and starport required to build each unit costs 100 gas wheras zerg only have to build 1 tech structure for whatever tech option they want and just mass units out of hatcheries which is why you dump minerals on hatecheries and overlords fool. and you can never have too many drones as zerg incase you expand or get harassed so thats why you dump minerals on those. zerglings can change into banelings so they have alot of function so they are good mineral dumps too. maybe you should try having a eureka moment from this and quit cryin L2P fool.
You talk, think and act like a 10 year old kid. If you think Terran is as gas intensive as Zerg you know almost nothing about this game.
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On September 15 2010 18:40 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 18:17 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 17:55 Grond wrote:On September 15 2010 17:40 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 17:33 Grond wrote:On September 15 2010 16:43 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 16:25 kickinhead wrote:On September 15 2010 16:20 Raiznhell wrote:
i think the only real balance suggestion that would help TvZ but not harm any other matchup is just completely removing reapers. honestly they are just specifically used as a harassment units and then are never seen again. this unit is why the matchup is tough for zerg because zerg even in BW didnt have hardly any openings so this complaint is just way overused that zerg doent have enough openings. the real problem was, in BW harassment as strong as the reaper never ever came out as quickly in brood war.
terrans either did fast vultures, bunker rushes or marine drops all of which happen significantly later or are significantly weaker than reaper harass and droning is already complicated enough as it is to judge when to drone and when to produce units. honestly if the reaper was harassed it would strengthen zerg early game and terrans still have hellion harass bunker rushes(with salvage) and drops to work with. the reaper is just a terribel unit and is the only unit in sc2 that is absolutely pointless to build at anypoint after the early game. ditch the reaper and the TvZ matchup is pretty much balanced IMO.
btw I'm a terran player and off race as zerg every now and then. im also in diamond low 600-700 diamond but still. reapers arent the only problem... Nowhere near the only one. dude. all the other "problems" can be delt with just fine once that zerg macro machine kicks in. if zerg is left to macro hard at the beginning the speed at which their teched units come out can be pretty devastating. with those extra early drones that wern't wasted by early reaper harass either getting killed or making more speedlings/roaches the zerg can get out a very very quick third hatch or even get a critical number of mutalisks out. the only other "problem" i see is the baneling. The baneling is awesome. rapes infantry like it's nothing. yeah tanks can get in the way meh. BUT they suicide... it's like you've tech to get them and if you fail to kill the infantry via a miss-micro you dont got anything left. THIS is the exact reason why lurkers are needed and are so much better. because lurker just devastate infantry with their splash plus burrowing but they dont suicide allowing for future use on the field. Also when a terran scans and starts using tanks or ravens to kill them they can at least unburrow and move away under cover of say zerglings or hydralisks or something. most other lurker arguements are kinda BS but THIS ^ is the real reason they are needed. simply because the curret counter to biomech is a suiciding unit which means you arent really left with a follow-up to just kill the terran after he loses alot of troops. say what you want about mech imbalance but like i said if zerg gets that early macro goin roaches with hydras into alot of ultralisks or broodlords can easily fuck up mech terran. "why should zerg have to tech to tier 3 to beat terran tier 2" well for one reason because thats logical sense that higher tier in tech should be aquired to beat lower tier? lol also zergs either teched defiler/ultra/ling or just made use of rapid tech switches to destroy terran mech in Brood War. This still goes back to reapers tho in that without them zerg can safely drone for the first few minutes without being harassed within just a few minutes of the game which allows everythign to transition a bit quicker. Zerg have no way effective way to spend all those minerals. They are so gas limited they just throw away minerals on Zerglings. The Roach is their only effective mineral dump but it is hard countered by the Marauders in ZvT. Your post actually makes me wonder if you actually play this game since you said higher tier should be required to beat lower tier. A huge part of the problem is Terran can beat Tier 2 and Tier 3 with just Tier 1 plus Medivacs. I'm not saying those units are the only problem, I think it will eventually become apparent that almost every Terran unit was overtuned. Dude like i said before im diamond only 600-700 diamond but still diamond league under the name Raiznevil if you dont believe that i play this game go look it up... also anything bio is pulverized by banelings mixed into the army. roach/baneling/muta is incredibly strong right now it's just getting it up is the problem and bout dumping extra minerals.....im not sure if YOU play this game because the obvious place to dump extra minerals is obviously on hmmm let's say HATCHERIES MORE QUEENS FOR CREEP TUMORS AND EARLY AA ZERGLINGS ** DRONES ** <- big big option OVERLORDS <- a ton of overlords allows for not being supply blocked, allows for extra overlords to sacrifice for scouting info, alot of overlords could mean alot of drops, overlords all spread out all over the map like say how IDRA does provides a ton of infromation on the whereabouts of expansions and where his army is. i cant believe you actually think theres nothing to dump minerals on thats just the dumbest thing i've heard regarding zerg. 600 Diamond Terran translates into what? Bronze Zerg? Investing money in economic units and structures you can't defend only works versus bad players. I doubt your suggestion of building Queens and Overlords is going to give any of the Zerg players a Eureka moment. LOL at least i'm good enough not to understand that if i got money i should spend it on something lololol. what a joke. this is why YOU are not in diamond. how does investing money in anything good against only bad players? the whole point of the game is to invest money in things. and if so you say have a ton of extra minerals then try spending it noob. ur gold 1v1 for a reason, because you dont build anything and just QQ about terran too much. and EVERY race is gas intense btw. 1 tank costs 125 gas, a thor costs 200, each factory and starport required to build each unit costs 100 gas wheras zerg only have to build 1 tech structure for whatever tech option they want and just mass units out of hatcheries which is why you dump minerals on hatecheries and overlords fool. and you can never have too many drones as zerg incase you expand or get harassed so thats why you dump minerals on those. zerglings can change into banelings so they have alot of function so they are good mineral dumps too. maybe you should try having a eureka moment from this and quit cryin L2P fool. U talk like being a 600 diamond T is sth to be proud of.... I'm 1200 dia-zerg - suck on that! don't even talk about creative or "smart" play s Z; u can't play cute stuff if u loose against the first rush.... And zerglings r soooo bad - by far the worst T1-unit and mineral-dump.
oh my god why does everyone that respond to me fail so badly.
i mention how reapers should be removed from the game and zergs rage how pathetic is this lol
and there is such thing as playing smart as zerg. if you have overlords spead out spewing creep, giving you info on what T is doing regardless if they get killed or not thats smart playing.
and zerglings arent bad
1) they are great vs marauders and speedlings prevent most early pressure of any sort.
2) they change into banelings which absolutely devastate infantry. you must have 4 pooled or 5 pooled your way into that rank because every top zerg like check and idra take advantage of these things.
3) if you getting killed by a specific rush take time to figure out how to beat it foo.
your logic along with grond's is astoundingly retarded.
and btw learn to type.
got my warning so whatever im done argueing with you guys that can't just read my posts.
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On September 15 2010 19:03 Raiznhell wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 18:40 kickinhead wrote:On September 15 2010 18:17 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 17:55 Grond wrote:On September 15 2010 17:40 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 17:33 Grond wrote:On September 15 2010 16:43 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 16:25 kickinhead wrote:On September 15 2010 16:20 Raiznhell wrote:
i think the only real balance suggestion that would help TvZ but not harm any other matchup is just completely removing reapers. honestly they are just specifically used as a harassment units and then are never seen again. this unit is why the matchup is tough for zerg because zerg even in BW didnt have hardly any openings so this complaint is just way overused that zerg doent have enough openings. the real problem was, in BW harassment as strong as the reaper never ever came out as quickly in brood war.
terrans either did fast vultures, bunker rushes or marine drops all of which happen significantly later or are significantly weaker than reaper harass and droning is already complicated enough as it is to judge when to drone and when to produce units. honestly if the reaper was harassed it would strengthen zerg early game and terrans still have hellion harass bunker rushes(with salvage) and drops to work with. the reaper is just a terribel unit and is the only unit in sc2 that is absolutely pointless to build at anypoint after the early game. ditch the reaper and the TvZ matchup is pretty much balanced IMO.
btw I'm a terran player and off race as zerg every now and then. im also in diamond low 600-700 diamond but still. reapers arent the only problem... Nowhere near the only one. dude. all the other "problems" can be delt with just fine once that zerg macro machine kicks in. if zerg is left to macro hard at the beginning the speed at which their teched units come out can be pretty devastating. with those extra early drones that wern't wasted by early reaper harass either getting killed or making more speedlings/roaches the zerg can get out a very very quick third hatch or even get a critical number of mutalisks out. the only other "problem" i see is the baneling. The baneling is awesome. rapes infantry like it's nothing. yeah tanks can get in the way meh. BUT they suicide... it's like you've tech to get them and if you fail to kill the infantry via a miss-micro you dont got anything left. THIS is the exact reason why lurkers are needed and are so much better. because lurker just devastate infantry with their splash plus burrowing but they dont suicide allowing for future use on the field. Also when a terran scans and starts using tanks or ravens to kill them they can at least unburrow and move away under cover of say zerglings or hydralisks or something. most other lurker arguements are kinda BS but THIS ^ is the real reason they are needed. simply because the curret counter to biomech is a suiciding unit which means you arent really left with a follow-up to just kill the terran after he loses alot of troops. say what you want about mech imbalance but like i said if zerg gets that early macro goin roaches with hydras into alot of ultralisks or broodlords can easily fuck up mech terran. "why should zerg have to tech to tier 3 to beat terran tier 2" well for one reason because thats logical sense that higher tier in tech should be aquired to beat lower tier? lol also zergs either teched defiler/ultra/ling or just made use of rapid tech switches to destroy terran mech in Brood War. This still goes back to reapers tho in that without them zerg can safely drone for the first few minutes without being harassed within just a few minutes of the game which allows everythign to transition a bit quicker. Zerg have no way effective way to spend all those minerals. They are so gas limited they just throw away minerals on Zerglings. The Roach is their only effective mineral dump but it is hard countered by the Marauders in ZvT. Your post actually makes me wonder if you actually play this game since you said higher tier should be required to beat lower tier. A huge part of the problem is Terran can beat Tier 2 and Tier 3 with just Tier 1 plus Medivacs. I'm not saying those units are the only problem, I think it will eventually become apparent that almost every Terran unit was overtuned. Dude like i said before im diamond only 600-700 diamond but still diamond league under the name Raiznevil if you dont believe that i play this game go look it up... also anything bio is pulverized by banelings mixed into the army. roach/baneling/muta is incredibly strong right now it's just getting it up is the problem and bout dumping extra minerals.....im not sure if YOU play this game because the obvious place to dump extra minerals is obviously on hmmm let's say HATCHERIES MORE QUEENS FOR CREEP TUMORS AND EARLY AA ZERGLINGS ** DRONES ** <- big big option OVERLORDS <- a ton of overlords allows for not being supply blocked, allows for extra overlords to sacrifice for scouting info, alot of overlords could mean alot of drops, overlords all spread out all over the map like say how IDRA does provides a ton of infromation on the whereabouts of expansions and where his army is. i cant believe you actually think theres nothing to dump minerals on thats just the dumbest thing i've heard regarding zerg. 600 Diamond Terran translates into what? Bronze Zerg? Investing money in economic units and structures you can't defend only works versus bad players. I doubt your suggestion of building Queens and Overlords is going to give any of the Zerg players a Eureka moment. LOL at least i'm good enough not to understand that if i got money i should spend it on something lololol. what a joke. this is why YOU are not in diamond. how does investing money in anything good against only bad players? the whole point of the game is to invest money in things. and if so you say have a ton of extra minerals then try spending it noob. ur gold 1v1 for a reason, because you dont build anything and just QQ about terran too much. and EVERY race is gas intense btw. 1 tank costs 125 gas, a thor costs 200, each factory and starport required to build each unit costs 100 gas wheras zerg only have to build 1 tech structure for whatever tech option they want and just mass units out of hatcheries which is why you dump minerals on hatecheries and overlords fool. and you can never have too many drones as zerg incase you expand or get harassed so thats why you dump minerals on those. zerglings can change into banelings so they have alot of function so they are good mineral dumps too. maybe you should try having a eureka moment from this and quit cryin L2P fool. U talk like being a 600 diamond T is sth to be proud of.... I'm 1200 dia-zerg - suck on that! don't even talk about creative or "smart" play s Z; u can't play cute stuff if u loose against the first rush.... And zerglings r soooo bad - by far the worst T1-unit and mineral-dump. oh my god why does everyone that respond to me fail so badly. i mention how reapers should be removed from the game and zergs rage how pathetic is this lol and there is such thing as playing smart as zerg. if you have overlords spead out spewing creep, giving you info on what T is doing regardless if they get killed or not thats smart playing. and zerglings arent bad 1) they are great vs marauders and speedlings prevent most early pressure of any sort. 2) they change into banelings which absolutely devastate infantry. you must have 4 pooled or 5 pooled your way into that rank because every top zerg like check and idra take advantage of these things. 3) if you getting killed by a specific rush take time to figure out how to beat it foo. your logic along with grond's is astoundingly retarded. and btw learn to type.
zlings do about 7 DPS/mins, zealots and marines do nearly the double amount of that!
And marines are ranged, can be healed and have insanely cost-effective upgrades. zealots have shields that regen and are easier to micro.
Lings only have speed, which is kinda obsolete, cuz they're too weak/slow to effectively take out Hellions/Reapers anyways and intelligent backstab's with Zerglings are sooo easily denied by Wall-in's and ForceFields.
You clearly haven't played Zerg and therefore don't have the slightest Idea what Problem Zerg faces in every game.
I was Top-200 in the EU-Ladder with Terran about a Month ago and switched to Zerg, cuz I wanted to improve and thought Terran was just too easy and it is just soooo much harder to win as Zerg. On the other hand, I have no Problem switching back to Terran even after not playing T for weeks and totally crush every Zerg lower than about 1400 Points on the Ladder...
Plz don't comment on balance-issues concerning Zerg if you haven't played them, you are clearly biased and quite frankly don't know what you're talking about.
I remember spouting out the same BS as you when I was playing T, so I can't really blame you for it, though I have to say that you are simply wrong.
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On September 15 2010 19:01 Grond wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 18:17 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 17:55 Grond wrote:On September 15 2010 17:40 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 17:33 Grond wrote:On September 15 2010 16:43 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 16:25 kickinhead wrote:On September 15 2010 16:20 Raiznhell wrote:
i think the only real balance suggestion that would help TvZ but not harm any other matchup is just completely removing reapers. honestly they are just specifically used as a harassment units and then are never seen again. this unit is why the matchup is tough for zerg because zerg even in BW didnt have hardly any openings so this complaint is just way overused that zerg doent have enough openings. the real problem was, in BW harassment as strong as the reaper never ever came out as quickly in brood war.
terrans either did fast vultures, bunker rushes or marine drops all of which happen significantly later or are significantly weaker than reaper harass and droning is already complicated enough as it is to judge when to drone and when to produce units. honestly if the reaper was harassed it would strengthen zerg early game and terrans still have hellion harass bunker rushes(with salvage) and drops to work with. the reaper is just a terribel unit and is the only unit in sc2 that is absolutely pointless to build at anypoint after the early game. ditch the reaper and the TvZ matchup is pretty much balanced IMO.
btw I'm a terran player and off race as zerg every now and then. im also in diamond low 600-700 diamond but still. reapers arent the only problem... Nowhere near the only one. dude. all the other "problems" can be delt with just fine once that zerg macro machine kicks in. if zerg is left to macro hard at the beginning the speed at which their teched units come out can be pretty devastating. with those extra early drones that wern't wasted by early reaper harass either getting killed or making more speedlings/roaches the zerg can get out a very very quick third hatch or even get a critical number of mutalisks out. the only other "problem" i see is the baneling. The baneling is awesome. rapes infantry like it's nothing. yeah tanks can get in the way meh. BUT they suicide... it's like you've tech to get them and if you fail to kill the infantry via a miss-micro you dont got anything left. THIS is the exact reason why lurkers are needed and are so much better. because lurker just devastate infantry with their splash plus burrowing but they dont suicide allowing for future use on the field. Also when a terran scans and starts using tanks or ravens to kill them they can at least unburrow and move away under cover of say zerglings or hydralisks or something. most other lurker arguements are kinda BS but THIS ^ is the real reason they are needed. simply because the curret counter to biomech is a suiciding unit which means you arent really left with a follow-up to just kill the terran after he loses alot of troops. say what you want about mech imbalance but like i said if zerg gets that early macro goin roaches with hydras into alot of ultralisks or broodlords can easily fuck up mech terran. "why should zerg have to tech to tier 3 to beat terran tier 2" well for one reason because thats logical sense that higher tier in tech should be aquired to beat lower tier? lol also zergs either teched defiler/ultra/ling or just made use of rapid tech switches to destroy terran mech in Brood War. This still goes back to reapers tho in that without them zerg can safely drone for the first few minutes without being harassed within just a few minutes of the game which allows everythign to transition a bit quicker. Zerg have no way effective way to spend all those minerals. They are so gas limited they just throw away minerals on Zerglings. The Roach is their only effective mineral dump but it is hard countered by the Marauders in ZvT. Your post actually makes me wonder if you actually play this game since you said higher tier should be required to beat lower tier. A huge part of the problem is Terran can beat Tier 2 and Tier 3 with just Tier 1 plus Medivacs. I'm not saying those units are the only problem, I think it will eventually become apparent that almost every Terran unit was overtuned. Dude like i said before im diamond only 600-700 diamond but still diamond league under the name Raiznevil if you dont believe that i play this game go look it up... also anything bio is pulverized by banelings mixed into the army. roach/baneling/muta is incredibly strong right now it's just getting it up is the problem and bout dumping extra minerals.....im not sure if YOU play this game because the obvious place to dump extra minerals is obviously on hmmm let's say HATCHERIES MORE QUEENS FOR CREEP TUMORS AND EARLY AA ZERGLINGS ** DRONES ** <- big big option OVERLORDS <- a ton of overlords allows for not being supply blocked, allows for extra overlords to sacrifice for scouting info, alot of overlords could mean alot of drops, overlords all spread out all over the map like say how IDRA does provides a ton of infromation on the whereabouts of expansions and where his army is. i cant believe you actually think theres nothing to dump minerals on thats just the dumbest thing i've heard regarding zerg. 600 Diamond Terran translates into what? Bronze Zerg? Investing money in economic units and structures you can't defend only works versus bad players. I doubt your suggestion of building Queens and Overlords is going to give any of the Zerg players a Eureka moment. LOL at least i'm good enough not to understand that if i got money i should spend it on something lololol. what a joke. this is why YOU are not in diamond. how does investing money in anything good against only bad players? the whole point of the game is to invest money in things. and if so you say have a ton of extra minerals then try spending it noob. ur gold 1v1 for a reason, because you dont build anything and just QQ about terran too much. and EVERY race is gas intense btw. 1 tank costs 125 gas, a thor costs 200, each factory and starport required to build each unit costs 100 gas wheras zerg only have to build 1 tech structure for whatever tech option they want and just mass units out of hatcheries which is why you dump minerals on hatecheries and overlords fool. and you can never have too many drones as zerg incase you expand or get harassed so thats why you dump minerals on those. zerglings can change into banelings so they have alot of function so they are good mineral dumps too. maybe you should try having a eureka moment from this and quit cryin L2P fool. You talk, think and act like a 10 year old kid. If you think Terran is as gas intensive as Zerg you know almost nothing about this game.
Reaper - 50 gas Roach - 25 gas
Tank - 125 gas Hydralisk - 50 gas
Thor - 200 gas Mutalisk - 100 gas
factories EACH -100 gas Banelings - 25 gas
starports EACH - 100 gas Infestor - 150 gas
Viking - 75 gas Corruptor - 100 gas
raven - 200 gas Ultralisk - 200 gas
banshee - 150 gas Brood Lord - 150 gas
Battlecruiser - 300 gas Lair > Hive - 250 gas + 450 gas for the other tech stuctures
Ghost - 150 gas
Medivac - 100 gas
given that terran usually build 4-6 factories and maybe 3 starports plus the armories means that Both races are relatively even in gas expenses. i didnt even mention marauders and add-ons. ALL the three races need gas relatively equally. now what have you got to retort.
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On September 15 2010 19:12 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 19:03 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 18:40 kickinhead wrote:On September 15 2010 18:17 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 17:55 Grond wrote:On September 15 2010 17:40 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 17:33 Grond wrote:On September 15 2010 16:43 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 16:25 kickinhead wrote:On September 15 2010 16:20 Raiznhell wrote:
i think the only real balance suggestion that would help TvZ but not harm any other matchup is just completely removing reapers. honestly they are just specifically used as a harassment units and then are never seen again. this unit is why the matchup is tough for zerg because zerg even in BW didnt have hardly any openings so this complaint is just way overused that zerg doent have enough openings. the real problem was, in BW harassment as strong as the reaper never ever came out as quickly in brood war.
terrans either did fast vultures, bunker rushes or marine drops all of which happen significantly later or are significantly weaker than reaper harass and droning is already complicated enough as it is to judge when to drone and when to produce units. honestly if the reaper was harassed it would strengthen zerg early game and terrans still have hellion harass bunker rushes(with salvage) and drops to work with. the reaper is just a terribel unit and is the only unit in sc2 that is absolutely pointless to build at anypoint after the early game. ditch the reaper and the TvZ matchup is pretty much balanced IMO.
btw I'm a terran player and off race as zerg every now and then. im also in diamond low 600-700 diamond but still. reapers arent the only problem... Nowhere near the only one. dude. all the other "problems" can be delt with just fine once that zerg macro machine kicks in. if zerg is left to macro hard at the beginning the speed at which their teched units come out can be pretty devastating. with those extra early drones that wern't wasted by early reaper harass either getting killed or making more speedlings/roaches the zerg can get out a very very quick third hatch or even get a critical number of mutalisks out. the only other "problem" i see is the baneling. The baneling is awesome. rapes infantry like it's nothing. yeah tanks can get in the way meh. BUT they suicide... it's like you've tech to get them and if you fail to kill the infantry via a miss-micro you dont got anything left. THIS is the exact reason why lurkers are needed and are so much better. because lurker just devastate infantry with their splash plus burrowing but they dont suicide allowing for future use on the field. Also when a terran scans and starts using tanks or ravens to kill them they can at least unburrow and move away under cover of say zerglings or hydralisks or something. most other lurker arguements are kinda BS but THIS ^ is the real reason they are needed. simply because the curret counter to biomech is a suiciding unit which means you arent really left with a follow-up to just kill the terran after he loses alot of troops. say what you want about mech imbalance but like i said if zerg gets that early macro goin roaches with hydras into alot of ultralisks or broodlords can easily fuck up mech terran. "why should zerg have to tech to tier 3 to beat terran tier 2" well for one reason because thats logical sense that higher tier in tech should be aquired to beat lower tier? lol also zergs either teched defiler/ultra/ling or just made use of rapid tech switches to destroy terran mech in Brood War. This still goes back to reapers tho in that without them zerg can safely drone for the first few minutes without being harassed within just a few minutes of the game which allows everythign to transition a bit quicker. Zerg have no way effective way to spend all those minerals. They are so gas limited they just throw away minerals on Zerglings. The Roach is their only effective mineral dump but it is hard countered by the Marauders in ZvT. Your post actually makes me wonder if you actually play this game since you said higher tier should be required to beat lower tier. A huge part of the problem is Terran can beat Tier 2 and Tier 3 with just Tier 1 plus Medivacs. I'm not saying those units are the only problem, I think it will eventually become apparent that almost every Terran unit was overtuned. Dude like i said before im diamond only 600-700 diamond but still diamond league under the name Raiznevil if you dont believe that i play this game go look it up... also anything bio is pulverized by banelings mixed into the army. roach/baneling/muta is incredibly strong right now it's just getting it up is the problem and bout dumping extra minerals.....im not sure if YOU play this game because the obvious place to dump extra minerals is obviously on hmmm let's say HATCHERIES MORE QUEENS FOR CREEP TUMORS AND EARLY AA ZERGLINGS ** DRONES ** <- big big option OVERLORDS <- a ton of overlords allows for not being supply blocked, allows for extra overlords to sacrifice for scouting info, alot of overlords could mean alot of drops, overlords all spread out all over the map like say how IDRA does provides a ton of infromation on the whereabouts of expansions and where his army is. i cant believe you actually think theres nothing to dump minerals on thats just the dumbest thing i've heard regarding zerg. 600 Diamond Terran translates into what? Bronze Zerg? Investing money in economic units and structures you can't defend only works versus bad players. I doubt your suggestion of building Queens and Overlords is going to give any of the Zerg players a Eureka moment. LOL at least i'm good enough not to understand that if i got money i should spend it on something lololol. what a joke. this is why YOU are not in diamond. how does investing money in anything good against only bad players? the whole point of the game is to invest money in things. and if so you say have a ton of extra minerals then try spending it noob. ur gold 1v1 for a reason, because you dont build anything and just QQ about terran too much. and EVERY race is gas intense btw. 1 tank costs 125 gas, a thor costs 200, each factory and starport required to build each unit costs 100 gas wheras zerg only have to build 1 tech structure for whatever tech option they want and just mass units out of hatcheries which is why you dump minerals on hatecheries and overlords fool. and you can never have too many drones as zerg incase you expand or get harassed so thats why you dump minerals on those. zerglings can change into banelings so they have alot of function so they are good mineral dumps too. maybe you should try having a eureka moment from this and quit cryin L2P fool. U talk like being a 600 diamond T is sth to be proud of.... I'm 1200 dia-zerg - suck on that! don't even talk about creative or "smart" play s Z; u can't play cute stuff if u loose against the first rush.... And zerglings r soooo bad - by far the worst T1-unit and mineral-dump. oh my god why does everyone that respond to me fail so badly. i mention how reapers should be removed from the game and zergs rage how pathetic is this lol and there is such thing as playing smart as zerg. if you have overlords spead out spewing creep, giving you info on what T is doing regardless if they get killed or not thats smart playing. and zerglings arent bad 1) they are great vs marauders and speedlings prevent most early pressure of any sort. 2) they change into banelings which absolutely devastate infantry. you must have 4 pooled or 5 pooled your way into that rank because every top zerg like check and idra take advantage of these things. 3) if you getting killed by a specific rush take time to figure out how to beat it foo. your logic along with grond's is astoundingly retarded. and btw learn to type. zlings do about 7 DPS/mins, zealots and marines do nearly the double amount of that! And marines are ranged, can be healed and have insanely cost-effective upgrades. zealots have shields that regen and are easier to micro. Lings only have speed, which is kinda obsolete, cuz they're too weak/slow to effectively take out Hellions/Reapers anyways and intelligent backstab's with Zerglings are sooo easily denied by Wall-in's and ForceFields. You clearly haven't played Zerg and therefore don't have the slightest Idea what Problem Zerg faces in every game. I was Top-200 in the EU-Ladder with Terran about a Month ago and switched to Zerg, cuz I wanted to improve and thought Terran was just too easy and it is just soooo much harder to win as Zerg. On the other hand, I have no Problem switching back to Terran even after not playing T for weeks and totally crush every Zerg lower than about 1400 Points on the Ladder... Plz don't comment on balance-issues concerning Zerg if you haven't played them, you are clearly biased and quite frankly don't know what you're talking about. I remember spouting out the same BS as you when I was playing T, so I can't really blame you for it, though I have to say that you are simply wrong.
DUDE THE SHEER FACT that your argueing with me when i said reapers need to be removed from the game is dumbfounding considering your completely biased in point of view for the zerg.
whats your ID then.
and if you used to main as terran then of course your going to find it easy to get back into....
and of course lings are bad against marines because marines semi-counter them...your coming up with a bad arguement there fact is they are good against marauders not against marines and then can change into banelings which in fact totally destroy marines.
and speedlings ARE able to kill reapers.
oh and i played random during beta and play terran as main but still off-race as zerg alot so you can stop assuming what i play.
try reading what my points are first my original point was that reapers should be removed.
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On September 15 2010 19:24 Raiznhell wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 19:01 Grond wrote:On September 15 2010 18:17 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 17:55 Grond wrote:On September 15 2010 17:40 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 17:33 Grond wrote:On September 15 2010 16:43 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 16:25 kickinhead wrote:On September 15 2010 16:20 Raiznhell wrote:
i think the only real balance suggestion that would help TvZ but not harm any other matchup is just completely removing reapers. honestly they are just specifically used as a harassment units and then are never seen again. this unit is why the matchup is tough for zerg because zerg even in BW didnt have hardly any openings so this complaint is just way overused that zerg doent have enough openings. the real problem was, in BW harassment as strong as the reaper never ever came out as quickly in brood war.
terrans either did fast vultures, bunker rushes or marine drops all of which happen significantly later or are significantly weaker than reaper harass and droning is already complicated enough as it is to judge when to drone and when to produce units. honestly if the reaper was harassed it would strengthen zerg early game and terrans still have hellion harass bunker rushes(with salvage) and drops to work with. the reaper is just a terribel unit and is the only unit in sc2 that is absolutely pointless to build at anypoint after the early game. ditch the reaper and the TvZ matchup is pretty much balanced IMO.
btw I'm a terran player and off race as zerg every now and then. im also in diamond low 600-700 diamond but still. reapers arent the only problem... Nowhere near the only one. dude. all the other "problems" can be delt with just fine once that zerg macro machine kicks in. if zerg is left to macro hard at the beginning the speed at which their teched units come out can be pretty devastating. with those extra early drones that wern't wasted by early reaper harass either getting killed or making more speedlings/roaches the zerg can get out a very very quick third hatch or even get a critical number of mutalisks out. the only other "problem" i see is the baneling. The baneling is awesome. rapes infantry like it's nothing. yeah tanks can get in the way meh. BUT they suicide... it's like you've tech to get them and if you fail to kill the infantry via a miss-micro you dont got anything left. THIS is the exact reason why lurkers are needed and are so much better. because lurker just devastate infantry with their splash plus burrowing but they dont suicide allowing for future use on the field. Also when a terran scans and starts using tanks or ravens to kill them they can at least unburrow and move away under cover of say zerglings or hydralisks or something. most other lurker arguements are kinda BS but THIS ^ is the real reason they are needed. simply because the curret counter to biomech is a suiciding unit which means you arent really left with a follow-up to just kill the terran after he loses alot of troops. say what you want about mech imbalance but like i said if zerg gets that early macro goin roaches with hydras into alot of ultralisks or broodlords can easily fuck up mech terran. "why should zerg have to tech to tier 3 to beat terran tier 2" well for one reason because thats logical sense that higher tier in tech should be aquired to beat lower tier? lol also zergs either teched defiler/ultra/ling or just made use of rapid tech switches to destroy terran mech in Brood War. This still goes back to reapers tho in that without them zerg can safely drone for the first few minutes without being harassed within just a few minutes of the game which allows everythign to transition a bit quicker. Zerg have no way effective way to spend all those minerals. They are so gas limited they just throw away minerals on Zerglings. The Roach is their only effective mineral dump but it is hard countered by the Marauders in ZvT. Your post actually makes me wonder if you actually play this game since you said higher tier should be required to beat lower tier. A huge part of the problem is Terran can beat Tier 2 and Tier 3 with just Tier 1 plus Medivacs. I'm not saying those units are the only problem, I think it will eventually become apparent that almost every Terran unit was overtuned. Dude like i said before im diamond only 600-700 diamond but still diamond league under the name Raiznevil if you dont believe that i play this game go look it up... also anything bio is pulverized by banelings mixed into the army. roach/baneling/muta is incredibly strong right now it's just getting it up is the problem and bout dumping extra minerals.....im not sure if YOU play this game because the obvious place to dump extra minerals is obviously on hmmm let's say HATCHERIES MORE QUEENS FOR CREEP TUMORS AND EARLY AA ZERGLINGS ** DRONES ** <- big big option OVERLORDS <- a ton of overlords allows for not being supply blocked, allows for extra overlords to sacrifice for scouting info, alot of overlords could mean alot of drops, overlords all spread out all over the map like say how IDRA does provides a ton of infromation on the whereabouts of expansions and where his army is. i cant believe you actually think theres nothing to dump minerals on thats just the dumbest thing i've heard regarding zerg. 600 Diamond Terran translates into what? Bronze Zerg? Investing money in economic units and structures you can't defend only works versus bad players. I doubt your suggestion of building Queens and Overlords is going to give any of the Zerg players a Eureka moment. LOL at least i'm good enough not to understand that if i got money i should spend it on something lololol. what a joke. this is why YOU are not in diamond. how does investing money in anything good against only bad players? the whole point of the game is to invest money in things. and if so you say have a ton of extra minerals then try spending it noob. ur gold 1v1 for a reason, because you dont build anything and just QQ about terran too much. and EVERY race is gas intense btw. 1 tank costs 125 gas, a thor costs 200, each factory and starport required to build each unit costs 100 gas wheras zerg only have to build 1 tech structure for whatever tech option they want and just mass units out of hatcheries which is why you dump minerals on hatecheries and overlords fool. and you can never have too many drones as zerg incase you expand or get harassed so thats why you dump minerals on those. zerglings can change into banelings so they have alot of function so they are good mineral dumps too. maybe you should try having a eureka moment from this and quit cryin L2P fool. You talk, think and act like a 10 year old kid. If you think Terran is as gas intensive as Zerg you know almost nothing about this game. Reaper - 50 gas Roach - 25 gas Tank - 125 gas Hydralisk - 50 gas Thor - 200 gas Mutalisk - 100 gas factories EACH -100 gas Banelings - 25 gas starports EACH - 100 gas Infestor - 150 gas Viking - 75 gas Corruptor - 100 gas raven - 200 gas Ultralisk - 200 gas banshee - 150 gas Brood Lord - 150 gas Battlecruiser - 300 gas Lair > Hive - 250 gas + 450 gas for the other tech stuctures Ghost - 150 gas Medivac - 100 gas given that terran usually build 4-6 factories and maybe 3 starports plus the armories means that Both races are relatively even in gas expenses. i didnt even mention marauders and add-ons. ALL the three races need gas relatively equally. now what have you got to retort.
LOOOOOOOOOOOL
It's not just about the gas-cost, it's about the mins2gas-ratio.....
Besides: Mech-play is very gas-heavy, but it's not even the standard TvZ-build... You almost always splash in tons of marines and they do just sick DPS/Mins.
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On September 15 2010 19:31 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 19:24 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 19:01 Grond wrote:On September 15 2010 18:17 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 17:55 Grond wrote:On September 15 2010 17:40 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 17:33 Grond wrote:On September 15 2010 16:43 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 16:25 kickinhead wrote:On September 15 2010 16:20 Raiznhell wrote:
i think the only real balance suggestion that would help TvZ but not harm any other matchup is just completely removing reapers. honestly they are just specifically used as a harassment units and then are never seen again. this unit is why the matchup is tough for zerg because zerg even in BW didnt have hardly any openings so this complaint is just way overused that zerg doent have enough openings. the real problem was, in BW harassment as strong as the reaper never ever came out as quickly in brood war.
terrans either did fast vultures, bunker rushes or marine drops all of which happen significantly later or are significantly weaker than reaper harass and droning is already complicated enough as it is to judge when to drone and when to produce units. honestly if the reaper was harassed it would strengthen zerg early game and terrans still have hellion harass bunker rushes(with salvage) and drops to work with. the reaper is just a terribel unit and is the only unit in sc2 that is absolutely pointless to build at anypoint after the early game. ditch the reaper and the TvZ matchup is pretty much balanced IMO.
btw I'm a terran player and off race as zerg every now and then. im also in diamond low 600-700 diamond but still. reapers arent the only problem... Nowhere near the only one. dude. all the other "problems" can be delt with just fine once that zerg macro machine kicks in. if zerg is left to macro hard at the beginning the speed at which their teched units come out can be pretty devastating. with those extra early drones that wern't wasted by early reaper harass either getting killed or making more speedlings/roaches the zerg can get out a very very quick third hatch or even get a critical number of mutalisks out. the only other "problem" i see is the baneling. The baneling is awesome. rapes infantry like it's nothing. yeah tanks can get in the way meh. BUT they suicide... it's like you've tech to get them and if you fail to kill the infantry via a miss-micro you dont got anything left. THIS is the exact reason why lurkers are needed and are so much better. because lurker just devastate infantry with their splash plus burrowing but they dont suicide allowing for future use on the field. Also when a terran scans and starts using tanks or ravens to kill them they can at least unburrow and move away under cover of say zerglings or hydralisks or something. most other lurker arguements are kinda BS but THIS ^ is the real reason they are needed. simply because the curret counter to biomech is a suiciding unit which means you arent really left with a follow-up to just kill the terran after he loses alot of troops. say what you want about mech imbalance but like i said if zerg gets that early macro goin roaches with hydras into alot of ultralisks or broodlords can easily fuck up mech terran. "why should zerg have to tech to tier 3 to beat terran tier 2" well for one reason because thats logical sense that higher tier in tech should be aquired to beat lower tier? lol also zergs either teched defiler/ultra/ling or just made use of rapid tech switches to destroy terran mech in Brood War. This still goes back to reapers tho in that without them zerg can safely drone for the first few minutes without being harassed within just a few minutes of the game which allows everythign to transition a bit quicker. Zerg have no way effective way to spend all those minerals. They are so gas limited they just throw away minerals on Zerglings. The Roach is their only effective mineral dump but it is hard countered by the Marauders in ZvT. Your post actually makes me wonder if you actually play this game since you said higher tier should be required to beat lower tier. A huge part of the problem is Terran can beat Tier 2 and Tier 3 with just Tier 1 plus Medivacs. I'm not saying those units are the only problem, I think it will eventually become apparent that almost every Terran unit was overtuned. Dude like i said before im diamond only 600-700 diamond but still diamond league under the name Raiznevil if you dont believe that i play this game go look it up... also anything bio is pulverized by banelings mixed into the army. roach/baneling/muta is incredibly strong right now it's just getting it up is the problem and bout dumping extra minerals.....im not sure if YOU play this game because the obvious place to dump extra minerals is obviously on hmmm let's say HATCHERIES MORE QUEENS FOR CREEP TUMORS AND EARLY AA ZERGLINGS ** DRONES ** <- big big option OVERLORDS <- a ton of overlords allows for not being supply blocked, allows for extra overlords to sacrifice for scouting info, alot of overlords could mean alot of drops, overlords all spread out all over the map like say how IDRA does provides a ton of infromation on the whereabouts of expansions and where his army is. i cant believe you actually think theres nothing to dump minerals on thats just the dumbest thing i've heard regarding zerg. 600 Diamond Terran translates into what? Bronze Zerg? Investing money in economic units and structures you can't defend only works versus bad players. I doubt your suggestion of building Queens and Overlords is going to give any of the Zerg players a Eureka moment. LOL at least i'm good enough not to understand that if i got money i should spend it on something lololol. what a joke. this is why YOU are not in diamond. how does investing money in anything good against only bad players? the whole point of the game is to invest money in things. and if so you say have a ton of extra minerals then try spending it noob. ur gold 1v1 for a reason, because you dont build anything and just QQ about terran too much. and EVERY race is gas intense btw. 1 tank costs 125 gas, a thor costs 200, each factory and starport required to build each unit costs 100 gas wheras zerg only have to build 1 tech structure for whatever tech option they want and just mass units out of hatcheries which is why you dump minerals on hatecheries and overlords fool. and you can never have too many drones as zerg incase you expand or get harassed so thats why you dump minerals on those. zerglings can change into banelings so they have alot of function so they are good mineral dumps too. maybe you should try having a eureka moment from this and quit cryin L2P fool. You talk, think and act like a 10 year old kid. If you think Terran is as gas intensive as Zerg you know almost nothing about this game. Reaper - 50 gas Roach - 25 gas Tank - 125 gas Hydralisk - 50 gas Thor - 200 gas Mutalisk - 100 gas factories EACH -100 gas Banelings - 25 gas starports EACH - 100 gas Infestor - 150 gas Viking - 75 gas Corruptor - 100 gas raven - 200 gas Ultralisk - 200 gas banshee - 150 gas Brood Lord - 150 gas Battlecruiser - 300 gas Lair > Hive - 250 gas + 450 gas for the other tech stuctures Ghost - 150 gas Medivac - 100 gas given that terran usually build 4-6 factories and maybe 3 starports plus the armories means that Both races are relatively even in gas expenses. i didnt even mention marauders and add-ons. ALL the three races need gas relatively equally. now what have you got to retort. LOOOOOOOOOOOL It's not just about the gas-cost, it's about the mins2gas-ratio..... Besides: Mech-play is very gas-heavy, but it's not even the standard TvZ-build... You almost always splash in tons of marines and they do just sick DPS/Mins.
that was a response to a guy that said terran aren't gas heavy. and sicne when do marines make alot of appearances when going full mech? aha thats biomech and biomech is roughly just as gas heavy as it's counter which is roach/baneling/muta.
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On September 15 2010 17:33 Grond wrote:
A huge part of the problem is Terran can beat Tier 2 and Tier 3 with just Tier 1 plus Medivacs.
I'm obviously wasting my time here but show me a Zerg army under 1600 gas that beats 30 Marauders, 30 Marines and 8 Medivacs. Once Marauders reach critical mass they can kite Zerglings and Banelings indefinitely thanks to Stim/Concussive Shell/Medivac.
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On September 15 2010 19:36 Grond wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 17:33 Grond wrote:
A huge part of the problem is Terran can beat Tier 2 and Tier 3 with just Tier 1 plus Medivacs.
I'm obviously wasting my time here but show me a Zerg army under 1600 gas that beats 30 Marauders, 30 Marines and 8 Medivacs. Once Marauders reach critical mass they can kite Zerglings and Banelings indefinitely thanks to Stim/Concussive Shell/Medivac.
If a terran has 30 marauders, 30 marines and 8 medivacs you SHOULD if you played on par with him have a somehwat equal supply in speedlings/roaches/banelings and maybe some mutas if you fel the need to harass.
and equal supply of zerglings and banelings to bio terran is very destructive for the terran player as 30 marauders can only slow down 30 units and givent hat all those units move very very fast when upgraded the slow almost counts for nothing even when microing back especially since equal supply in zerglings and banelings is twice as many units as bio. if you watch alot of pros play starcraft 2 you'll notice alot fo them avoid going marine marauder purely and opt for more biomecha nd mech builds due to the power of banelings.
my point of view on this is that lurkers should be in the game instead because like the banelings they kill infantry easily BUT they dont suicide leaving units left to follow-up after destroying a terran army and go attack him.
if your oppnent has more rine/marauder than you have ling/baneling you just need to work on macro a bit more.
the tech to tier 3 is for more the mech style terran that unlike what kickinhead says is actually pretty common as ultralisks fair very well againt tank lins and broodlords are devastating too as broodlings cause tanks to kill eachother.
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On September 15 2010 19:44 Raiznhell wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 19:36 Grond wrote:On September 15 2010 17:33 Grond wrote:
A huge part of the problem is Terran can beat Tier 2 and Tier 3 with just Tier 1 plus Medivacs.
I'm obviously wasting my time here but show me a Zerg army under 1600 gas that beats 30 Marauders, 30 Marines and 8 Medivacs. Once Marauders reach critical mass they can kite Zerglings and Banelings indefinitely thanks to Stim/Concussive Shell/Medivac. If a terran has 30 marauders, 30 marines and 8 medivacs you SHOULD if you played on par with him have a somehwat equal supply in speedlings/roaches/banelings and maybe some mutas if you fel the need to harass. and equal supply of zerglings and banelings to bio terran is very destructive for the terran player as 30 marauders can only slow down 30 units and givent hat all those units move very very fast when upgraded the slow almost counts for nothing even when microing back especially since equal supply in zerglings and banelings is twice as many units as bio. if you watch alot of pros play starcraft 2 you'll notice alot fo them avoid going marine marauder purely and opt for more biomecha nd mech builds due to the power of banelings. my point of view on this is that lurkers should be int he game instead because liek the banelings they kill infantry easily BUT they dont suicide leaving units left to follow-up after destroying a terran army and go attack him. if your oppnent has more rine/marauder than you have ling/baneling you just need to work on macro a bit more.
Yeah well - the Lurker is not gonna be in sc2 any time soon, so where do we go from here?
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On September 15 2010 19:48 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 19:44 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 19:36 Grond wrote:On September 15 2010 17:33 Grond wrote:
A huge part of the problem is Terran can beat Tier 2 and Tier 3 with just Tier 1 plus Medivacs.
I'm obviously wasting my time here but show me a Zerg army under 1600 gas that beats 30 Marauders, 30 Marines and 8 Medivacs. Once Marauders reach critical mass they can kite Zerglings and Banelings indefinitely thanks to Stim/Concussive Shell/Medivac. If a terran has 30 marauders, 30 marines and 8 medivacs you SHOULD if you played on par with him have a somehwat equal supply in speedlings/roaches/banelings and maybe some mutas if you fel the need to harass. and equal supply of zerglings and banelings to bio terran is very destructive for the terran player as 30 marauders can only slow down 30 units and givent hat all those units move very very fast when upgraded the slow almost counts for nothing even when microing back especially since equal supply in zerglings and banelings is twice as many units as bio. if you watch alot of pros play starcraft 2 you'll notice alot fo them avoid going marine marauder purely and opt for more biomecha nd mech builds due to the power of banelings. my point of view on this is that lurkers should be int he game instead because liek the banelings they kill infantry easily BUT they dont suicide leaving units left to follow-up after destroying a terran army and go attack him. if your oppnent has more rine/marauder than you have ling/baneling you just need to work on macro a bit more. Yeah well - the Lurker is not gonna be in sc2 any time soon, so where do we go from here?
simply wait for blizzard to try and balance the game out how they see fit. i dont know what you expect me to do about it? aha
i was just offering my opinion that reapers should be removed and that i'd rather lurkers than banelings for the bio counter. you never know lurkers could come in for heart of the swarm as blizzard is focusing on zerg style gameplay for the campaign. people should note there may be slight imbalances in this first game because the terran is the campaign race... this doesnt mean biased opinions by them but while working on the terran campaign it gave them time to chuck around ideas about what creations to put in multi and what to leave in single player. when they go throught hese decisions for heart of the swarm we could see a lto more creative zerg ideas implimented....we may not and thus will just have to get over it and figure stuff out on our own.
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On September 15 2010 19:54 Raiznhell wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 19:48 kickinhead wrote:On September 15 2010 19:44 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 19:36 Grond wrote:On September 15 2010 17:33 Grond wrote:
A huge part of the problem is Terran can beat Tier 2 and Tier 3 with just Tier 1 plus Medivacs.
I'm obviously wasting my time here but show me a Zerg army under 1600 gas that beats 30 Marauders, 30 Marines and 8 Medivacs. Once Marauders reach critical mass they can kite Zerglings and Banelings indefinitely thanks to Stim/Concussive Shell/Medivac. If a terran has 30 marauders, 30 marines and 8 medivacs you SHOULD if you played on par with him have a somehwat equal supply in speedlings/roaches/banelings and maybe some mutas if you fel the need to harass. and equal supply of zerglings and banelings to bio terran is very destructive for the terran player as 30 marauders can only slow down 30 units and givent hat all those units move very very fast when upgraded the slow almost counts for nothing even when microing back especially since equal supply in zerglings and banelings is twice as many units as bio. if you watch alot of pros play starcraft 2 you'll notice alot fo them avoid going marine marauder purely and opt for more biomecha nd mech builds due to the power of banelings. my point of view on this is that lurkers should be int he game instead because liek the banelings they kill infantry easily BUT they dont suicide leaving units left to follow-up after destroying a terran army and go attack him. if your oppnent has more rine/marauder than you have ling/baneling you just need to work on macro a bit more. Yeah well - the Lurker is not gonna be in sc2 any time soon, so where do we go from here? simply wait for blizzard to try and balance the game out how they see fit. i dont know what you expect me to do about it? aha i was just offering my opinion that reapers should be removed and that i'd rather lurkers than banelings for the bio counter. you never know lurkers could come in for heart of the swarm as blizzard is focusing on zerg style gameplay for the campaign. people should note there may be slight imbalances in this first game because the terran is the campaign race... this doesnt mean biased opinions by them but while working on the terran campaign it gave them time to chucka orund ideas about what creations to put in multi and what to leave in single player. when they go throught hese decisions for heart of the swarm we could see a lto more creative zerg ideas implimented....we may not and thus will just have to get over it and figure stuff out on our own.
If Z has to w8 for HotS until it's balanced, there won't be any Zergs left. It's so frustrating to play Z, many ppl just switch to T or P.
And ur suggestions r probably just too extreme - blizz probably won't get rid of nor introduce any units 'till HotS.
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On September 15 2010 19:58 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 19:54 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 19:48 kickinhead wrote:On September 15 2010 19:44 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 19:36 Grond wrote:On September 15 2010 17:33 Grond wrote:
A huge part of the problem is Terran can beat Tier 2 and Tier 3 with just Tier 1 plus Medivacs.
I'm obviously wasting my time here but show me a Zerg army under 1600 gas that beats 30 Marauders, 30 Marines and 8 Medivacs. Once Marauders reach critical mass they can kite Zerglings and Banelings indefinitely thanks to Stim/Concussive Shell/Medivac. If a terran has 30 marauders, 30 marines and 8 medivacs you SHOULD if you played on par with him have a somehwat equal supply in speedlings/roaches/banelings and maybe some mutas if you fel the need to harass. and equal supply of zerglings and banelings to bio terran is very destructive for the terran player as 30 marauders can only slow down 30 units and givent hat all those units move very very fast when upgraded the slow almost counts for nothing even when microing back especially since equal supply in zerglings and banelings is twice as many units as bio. if you watch alot of pros play starcraft 2 you'll notice alot fo them avoid going marine marauder purely and opt for more biomecha nd mech builds due to the power of banelings. my point of view on this is that lurkers should be int he game instead because liek the banelings they kill infantry easily BUT they dont suicide leaving units left to follow-up after destroying a terran army and go attack him. if your oppnent has more rine/marauder than you have ling/baneling you just need to work on macro a bit more. Yeah well - the Lurker is not gonna be in sc2 any time soon, so where do we go from here? simply wait for blizzard to try and balance the game out how they see fit. i dont know what you expect me to do about it? aha i was just offering my opinion that reapers should be removed and that i'd rather lurkers than banelings for the bio counter. you never know lurkers could come in for heart of the swarm as blizzard is focusing on zerg style gameplay for the campaign. people should note there may be slight imbalances in this first game because the terran is the campaign race... this doesnt mean biased opinions by them but while working on the terran campaign it gave them time to chucka orund ideas about what creations to put in multi and what to leave in single player. when they go throught hese decisions for heart of the swarm we could see a lto more creative zerg ideas implimented....we may not and thus will just have to get over it and figure stuff out on our own. If Z has to w8 for HotS until it's balanced, there won't be any Zergs left. It's so frustrating to play Z, many ppl just switch to T or P. And ur suggestions r probably just too extreme - blizz probably won't get rid of nor introduce any units 'till HotS.
well in blizz's defence sc1 was never balanced till years after Brood War was even released. sc1 was dominated by zerg until Brood war and even afterward terran was weak until the drop ship speed increase and SlayerS_'BoxeR' show people how it's done. i don't remeber what toss wa slike back then tho but point being it's gunna take forever to get a perfectly balanced rts with as complicated a unit base as the one in sc2.
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I dont like this post,
TvZ is not broken at all. Well reapers are op, they have to fix it. All other stuff ... I dont know. Zerg has a very good chance to win against bio. I have no idea about mech because i dont play it often, i can imagine that a turteling terra is really hard to deal with as a zerg player
Disucussion about things like lowering depot for and bunker is very useless. they will nerf bunker soon....
My prediction:
in a few month everyone will cry how OP protoss is
a half year after this, everyone will discuss how OP zerg is
Greetings
PS: yes i do play terran
PPS: since broodwar!
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On September 15 2010 20:09 Grrbrr.404 wrote:
My prediction:
in a few month everyone will cry how OP protoss is
a half year after this, everyone will discuss how OP zerg is
Your prediction? More like you stole it word for word from Day9?
Here's my prediction: within 6 weeks, people will stop worshiping the "nothing is imbalanced" nonsense of Day9 and realize that in fact Zerg is underpowered and Terran is overpowered. Discussion of Protoss imbalance will be more specified (as it should be) while Zerg will continue to suffer until Heart of the Swarm.
Pretty much everything about Terran is overpowered. The Marine is too viable with the combination of stim and shield SO early (plus Reactor can mass them so fast), the Marauder is too strong against buildings and concussive grenades get way too fast, the Reaper should have no special attack against buildings, the Ghost is too easy to nuke with, the Medivac holds too many units and shouldn't be able to drop and heal off the bat, the Banshee is way too powerful and low-tier for its power, the Raven's point defense drone rapes range way too hard for its energy cost, Battlecruisers too much HP and damage, etc etc etc
What DOESN'T need balancing? Bunkers, Mules, Planetary Fortress, Hellions, Missile Turrets, Vikings, Thors... God... it's embarrassing how viable their units are compared to Zerg.
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Apparently SC2 needs no balance changes, it's perfect as is. Don't like it? Feel that it's unfair? tough, deal with it. I switched from P to T, it's the easy way around avoiding all the anguish. It's good to know that I'm favored (by race) vs Z and vs P.
When I'm not fooling around with a flawed sequal, I play the gentlemen's variant; BW.
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On September 15 2010 20:07 Raiznhell wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 19:58 kickinhead wrote:On September 15 2010 19:54 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 19:48 kickinhead wrote:On September 15 2010 19:44 Raiznhell wrote:On September 15 2010 19:36 Grond wrote:On September 15 2010 17:33 Grond wrote:
A huge part of the problem is Terran can beat Tier 2 and Tier 3 with just Tier 1 plus Medivacs.
I'm obviously wasting my time here but show me a Zerg army under 1600 gas that beats 30 Marauders, 30 Marines and 8 Medivacs. Once Marauders reach critical mass they can kite Zerglings and Banelings indefinitely thanks to Stim/Concussive Shell/Medivac. If a terran has 30 marauders, 30 marines and 8 medivacs you SHOULD if you played on par with him have a somehwat equal supply in speedlings/roaches/banelings and maybe some mutas if you fel the need to harass. and equal supply of zerglings and banelings to bio terran is very destructive for the terran player as 30 marauders can only slow down 30 units and givent hat all those units move very very fast when upgraded the slow almost counts for nothing even when microing back especially since equal supply in zerglings and banelings is twice as many units as bio. if you watch alot of pros play starcraft 2 you'll notice alot fo them avoid going marine marauder purely and opt for more biomecha nd mech builds due to the power of banelings. my point of view on this is that lurkers should be int he game instead because liek the banelings they kill infantry easily BUT they dont suicide leaving units left to follow-up after destroying a terran army and go attack him. if your oppnent has more rine/marauder than you have ling/baneling you just need to work on macro a bit more. Yeah well - the Lurker is not gonna be in sc2 any time soon, so where do we go from here? simply wait for blizzard to try and balance the game out how they see fit. i dont know what you expect me to do about it? aha i was just offering my opinion that reapers should be removed and that i'd rather lurkers than banelings for the bio counter. you never know lurkers could come in for heart of the swarm as blizzard is focusing on zerg style gameplay for the campaign. people should note there may be slight imbalances in this first game because the terran is the campaign race... this doesnt mean biased opinions by them but while working on the terran campaign it gave them time to chucka orund ideas about what creations to put in multi and what to leave in single player. when they go throught hese decisions for heart of the swarm we could see a lto more creative zerg ideas implimented....we may not and thus will just have to get over it and figure stuff out on our own. If Z has to w8 for HotS until it's balanced, there won't be any Zergs left. It's so frustrating to play Z, many ppl just switch to T or P. And ur suggestions r probably just too extreme - blizz probably won't get rid of nor introduce any units 'till HotS. well in blizz's defence sc1 was never balanced till years after Brood War was even released. sc1 was dominated by zerg until Brood war and even afterward terran was weak until the drop ship speed increase and SlayerS_'BoxeR' show people how it's done. i don't remeber what toss wa slike back then tho but point being it's gunna take forever to get a perfectly balanced rts with as complicated a unit base as the one in sc2.
If i recall Terran was almost unplayed until Boxer showed the world how to rape face.
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