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{ToT}ColmA
Japan3260 Posts
bunker salvage is a fine idea, but would make it 75% or something along these lines. in generel i dont think that the things u presented are the real issue for tvz, its more like tanks not "overkilling" and zergs mass drones to get the eco going which leads into 70 drones rest units so that the force seems rather small for zerg and the roach supply aint helping in that department. | ||
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koppik
United States676 Posts
On August 03 2010 04:29 iEchoic wrote:Nerfing the thor's AA in any significant way will completely break the matchup. Vikings do not counter mutalisks. Terran only has two units that are "effective" against mutas - thors and marines. Thors are not as effective as people tend to believe (day[9] has been saying this for a while and he is very right), and marines are effective.. Yeah, mutalisks definitely trade poorly with thors, but the ratio isn't as bad as thought. From the investigation,On July 25 2010 07:51 Piousflea wrote: MYTH #8: "Mutas die horribly against Thors regardless of your micro": BUSTED The below tests were done with unupgraded Thors. Obviously, upgraded thors will spank mutas much harder. I was able to beat 1 Thor with 4 mutas, and this one was very close. I was able to beat 2 Thors very easily with 7 Mutas. My best against 3 Thors was 10 Mutas. My best against 4 Thors was 13 Mutas. My best against 5 Thors was 16 Mutas. Note that with pure attack-move, 5 Thors will kill 25 Mutas with 4 thors left standing. With bad clumping, even 30 Mutas will die to 5 thors. Against 3+ thors, micro will make your mutas nearly TWICE as effective. Better yet, microing against thors is super easy, you don't need to practice for hours like in Broodwar. 1) Order your mutas to Stop, wait for them to spread out naturally. 2) Order your mutas to Move past the thors. Notice how a Move order keeps them spread out, while an Attack Move order causes them to clump. 3) When the frontmost Muta is about to reach the Thors, hit Stop. With deceleration, this will cause your entire muta group to park directly on top of the Thor group, perfectly spread out to avoid splash. 4) Focus fire at will and watch thors explode. Cost-for-cost, Thors are still a strong counter to Mutas. The best ratio (just over 3-to-1) still represents 300+ gas versus 200 gas. However, a Terran player rarely spends 100% of his gas on Thors. If he's spending gas on Tanks and Thors, and you are only spending gas on Mutas, it is very plausible that you could beat his thors head on. | ||
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Zoltan
United States656 Posts
On August 03 2010 04:31 talecK wrote: I think this matchup is similar to how it was in BW. It's terran favored at a lower level. If you A-moved any zerg army into a terran army you lost. You had to out expand the terran and abuse zergs mobility. Could it be any more this? i think not. /signed a million times over. | ||
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
On August 03 2010 04:33 iEchoic wrote: Excellent post, I was unaware turrets existed. Surely you should be building turrets in the middle of every fight. I don't see turrets often in top games. MAYBE BECAUSE THOR'S AA IS TOO GOOD? | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12059 Posts
On August 03 2010 04:33 iEchoic wrote: Excellent post, I was unaware turrets existed. Surely you should be building turrets in the middle of every fight. Also, it's not as if turrets cost 100 minerals and can only shoot air, meaning if you build a load and they don't actually attack with air, they can't do anything. | ||
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naventus
United States1339 Posts
Go look at the stuff that Sen does ZvT, and come back. | ||
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Bluerain
United States348 Posts
as for the mules, i think currently they can mine off the same patch as a patch alrdy with a scv? is this correct? if so i think this should be removed. 50 energy for mules is fine. jus give calling down mules a cooldown like larvae inject so they cant spam it. thor range seems high but theyre so slow so it's not that bad. dropships heal is good but doesnt seem that op.... marauders are like mass drayds in wc3 lol. i dont think they need a cooldown they are fine. i jus think it's lame that infantry units can kill buildings so fast. im stuck in wc3 mode where i think i need siege units to kill buildings oh well its a diff game i guess | ||
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
On August 03 2010 04:35 Qikz wrote: Also, it's not as if turrets cost 100 minerals and can only shoot air, meaning if you build a load and they don't actually attack with air, they can't do anything. Oh hi,I am Protoss and have cannons. I can't move them,they shoot both air and ground but if I am going to counter Air I am going to position them in mineral line or at ledge of my base. | ||
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Defrag
Poland414 Posts
MULE revision I would leave mule's like it is, but limit mule number possible to have to 2 for each command center you have. Or limiting to 2, and re-doing the mule to 25 energy ( like all races main macro mechanic ) and cutting it's effectivness in half, that would be most awesome. That way there would be no spawning of 16 mules late in the game when some player forgot to macro at all and found himself with 4 full CC's. That would actually punish players for having bad macro and oh, yeah - no mining out of gold expo withing 30s. Lowering/Lifting Supply Depots revision Just make it non-instant, and take 6-8seconds, so there is actually a chance to abuse the fact that terran is moving out/in. Similar to spine/spore crawlers, they were nerfed to 12s which is A LOT. Bunker revision 1) Make salvage not possible to use while under attack. 2) Make it take 10s, but instead of full refund make it return 10minerals per second - that way it doesnt get overnerfed with point 1). About bunker construction, it would be awesome if units wouldnt lose target when SCV's move. Targeting building SCV's is a pain, but we can live with it - we dont want easy mode either. Viking/Thor I think Vikings are fine, thou in large numbers they completely destroy large number of Corruptors. As for Thor's I think the unit is imbalanced itself, since atm only counter to Thor's are lings ( roaches get owned so badly, they could really use +armored bonus to be usefull at all, besides defending hellion harras or 2 gate zaelot pushes ). And lings in later stages of the game get eaten alive by anything. Marauder Suggestion: Give marauders' concussive shells a cooldown timer (like the stalker blink). Sounds awesome, but it should be really, really low one to not overnerf the unit. Just make it slow every 2.5-3s, or something, which would mean every second shot without stimpack. Medivac Suggestion: Lower the heal rate. 13.5hp/sec is really high. I think thats fine, banelings are the key. Only stupid situations is when there are small armies left like 4-5 lings+hydra or roach vs 1-2 marine + medivac and zerg cant kill a single marine. Other suggestions: 1) bring back the stop-to-fire on Hellions. Does it need any comment? 4 properly microed hellions can take any number of speedlings. | ||
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ghostnuke1234
164 Posts
The last significant proof we have of Terran vs Zerg matchup is the King of Beta tourney with Idra winning it all. Idra also ran over QXC 3-0 so perhaps Blizzard should look at nerfing Zerg as Idra was overpowered against QXC. This thread is FAIL without the op collecting data from the release to determine if there is a TvsZ imbalance in the first place and I think the mods should lock this thread. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On August 03 2010 04:37 Kurumi wrote: Oh hi,I am Protoss and have cannons. I can't move them,they shoot both air and ground but if I am going to counter Air I am going to position them in mineral line or at ledge of my base. Yes, and they shoot ground. You even mentioned that yourself. There is no comparison. | ||
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XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
And trust me there is definately a reason why the Z and P macro mechanics are much harder to use and control. If all Z had to do was 1 to hit 1 button to spawn extra larva at each hatchery that would be a nightmare. And Chrono bost is imo the best of the three races and requires only a little more multi tasking then the T mule. | ||
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
On August 03 2010 04:39 ghostnuke1234 wrote: Shouldn't the mods lock this thread? Where is the data backup since the release to prove Terran vs Zerg is imbalanced? The last significant proof we have of Terran vs Zerg matchup is the King of Beta tourney with Idra winning it all. Idra also ran over QXC 3-0 so perhaps Blizzard should look at nerfing Zerg as Idra was overpowered against QXC. This thread is FAIL without the op collecting data from the release to determine if there is a TvsZ imbalance in the first place and I think the mods should lock this thread. Well,Top Diamond Zerg>Top Diamond Protoss>Top Diamond Terran. Easier Macro,Easier Micro = less skill. | ||
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Zozo
Brazil2579 Posts
None of your changes are aimed at TvZ problems, they are all "nerf terran please". If you want the matchup to change you need to think about the tank, the reaper, the roach and the corruptor. Terran macro is not "easier", it just has a different touch to it. While zerg can throw down a spire and make 14 mutas, terran cannot throw down one starport and make tons of vikings. As zerg you don't have to be nearly as careful when transitioning and as Terran you don't have to worry much about your worker count. Sure, if we implement some of your changes the match will be balanced, this week. Cause you know, next month, 1 base BCs will be raping you. Not to mention, at what price? Broken TvP? The bunker one I agree, but not the visibility part. The SCV is already high on priority and any emergency bunker built to hold cheese will be that much harder to finish. 50-75% salvage is more then enough, also it needs to be based of the HP's %. My suggestions would be: 1-> Make reaper max speed base and cliff jump a 100 gas upgrade. O This one is pretty tricky, as it could turn 7rax the standard TvT opener, needs some testing. 2-> Corruptor would have a channeled ability that prevents the unit to attack/cast, but will break if the unit runs out of range (something like 14-16) Allows you to move into tanks and thors, and even muta harass if you bring one corruptor for the thor, great change imo. 3-> Increase roach burrowed movement speed. Atm it just doesn't help you ambush stuff. There is something else we have to be aware off: how bad are thors against split mutalisks? pretty terrible. Nerfing a unit now just because you don't want to micro against it does lead to another patch in the future trying to fix what shouldn't be changed in the first place. | ||
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Parodoxx
United States549 Posts
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hyouro
Denmark45 Posts
On August 03 2010 04:39 ghostnuke1234 wrote: Shouldn't the mods lock this thread? Where is the data backup since the release to prove Terran vs Zerg is imbalanced? The last significant proof we have of Terran vs Zerg matchup is the King of Beta tourney with Idra winning it all. Idra also ran over QXC 3-0 so perhaps Blizzard should look at nerfing Zerg as Idra was overpowered against QXC. This thread is FAIL without the op collecting data from the release to determine if there is a TvsZ imbalance in the first place and I think the mods should lock this thread. Yeah so because idra won ---> 1 <--- tourney just after the break between phase 1 and 2. We should all come to the conclusion nothing is wrong? Please... COUNTLESS of threads has been made. | ||
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arnold(soTa)
Sweden352 Posts
On August 03 2010 04:21 avilo wrote: why is it that everyone who says terran is so EZ never happens to play Terran themselves? its in black and white, terran macromechanic orbital command is much easier than any other race..explained well by lalush but we all knew it to be true.. nothing punishes you for your lazy macro, compare with protoss or zerg and mebbe you understand. also a theory might be that people generelly dont wanna admit that they suck and are getting an unfair advantage..logical. | ||
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OminouS
Sweden1343 Posts
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Notorious-B.I.G
77 Posts
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roliax
135 Posts
sorry, no thanks. i understand one, or maybe two things you might want to change. but redesigning the entire race? really? play terran and see how painful it is to make supply depots. seriously, before you start writing a novel on it, PLAY IT. try to do it all these "overpowered" stuff and see how it feels. if you're winning games left and right then yes there's a problem. i guarantee you if you play terran, we're gonna see a new thread "nerf protoss" | ||
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