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On August 03 2010 05:07 Chaosvuistje wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 05:01 Dente wrote:On August 03 2010 05:00 Kurumi wrote:On August 03 2010 04:57 Dente wrote:On August 03 2010 04:52 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
There's a reason most terrans go mech nowadays: bioball doesn't work against zerg, so why are you complaining about medivacs healing too quickly? Exactly! Bioball is just so weak vs muta baneling speedling =( Don't rely on pure bio,use damn hellions next time Helions vs speedling muta baneling? I seriously hope you are kidding. These things do not work. Who said anything about pure hellion? As a zerg player a bio ball with a couple of infernal preigniter hellions is very, very scary. 4 hellions with the upgrade decimate so many lings/banelings with proper micro its insane. The point in Muta/baneling is to kill the marines, because marines are actually really tough on muta's in big groups.
yea but toss 2 infestors into your mix and that bio ball is going to explode when they cant kite backwards from the banelings.
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On August 03 2010 04:34 koppik wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 04:29 iEchoic wrote:Nerfing the thor's AA in any significant way will completely break the matchup. Vikings do not counter mutalisks. Terran only has two units that are "effective" against mutas - thors and marines. Thors are not as effective as people tend to believe (day[9] has been saying this for a while and he is very right), and marines are effective.. Yeah, mutalisks definitely trade poorly with thors, but the ratio isn't as bad as thought. From the investigation, Show nested quote +On July 25 2010 07:51 Piousflea wrote:
MYTH #8: "Mutas die horribly against Thors regardless of your micro": BUSTED
The below tests were done with unupgraded Thors. Obviously, upgraded thors will spank mutas much harder.
I was able to beat 1 Thor with 4 mutas, and this one was very close.
I was able to beat 2 Thors very easily with 7 Mutas.
My best against 3 Thors was 10 Mutas.
My best against 4 Thors was 13 Mutas.
My best against 5 Thors was 16 Mutas.
Note that with pure attack-move, 5 Thors will kill 25 Mutas with 4 thors left standing. With bad clumping, even 30 Mutas will die to 5 thors.
Against 3+ thors, micro will make your mutas nearly TWICE as effective. Better yet, microing against thors is super easy, you don't need to practice for hours like in Broodwar.
1) Order your mutas to Stop, wait for them to spread out naturally.
2) Order your mutas to Move past the thors. Notice how a Move order keeps them spread out, while an Attack Move order causes them to clump.
3) When the frontmost Muta is about to reach the Thors, hit Stop. With deceleration, this will cause your entire muta group to park directly on top of the Thor group, perfectly spread out to avoid splash.
4) Focus fire at will and watch thors explode.
Cost-for-cost, Thors are still a strong counter to Mutas. The best ratio (just over 3-to-1) still represents 300+ gas versus 200 gas. However, a Terran player rarely spends 100% of his gas on Thors. If he's spending gas on Tanks and Thors, and you are only spending gas on Mutas, it is very plausible that you could beat his thors head on.
Problem arises when in real fights, the thor is surrounded by a crapload of marines clumped together. Spread the mutas to your hearts desire, but they will get melted against the marines once you get in range of the thor.
i think reducing overlord drop upgrade to 100/100 would help a lot against terran.
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You can't just "balance" TvZ. Balance changes for one matchup will affect the other, so you can't just do this wide sweep of balancing just because you are mad you dropped a game to a terran.
MULE is the easiest because its the least useful macro mechanic. Spawn Larva is absurdly powerful at all stages of the game. MULE gets more and more useless as the game drags on and you have more minerals than anyone can really effectively sink in.
Also if Medivacs are OP so are Protoss shields.
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United States3612 Posts
On August 03 2010 05:05 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 04:29 iEchoic wrote:
These balance changes really don't consider the entire spectrum of the game and the matchup. This is always the problem with user-created balance suggestions. This is why Blizzard balances the game and not the players.
Nerfing the thor's AA in any significant way will completely break the matchup. Vikings do not counter mutalisks. Terran only has two units that are "effective" against mutas - thors and marines. Thors are not as effective as people tend to believe (day[9] has been saying this for a while and he is very right), and marines are effective.
If the thor's AA ever reaches a point where it becomes less than a cost-effective counter against mutas, Terran will only be able to counter mutas with marines. As soon as that happens, muta/bling will be far, far too powerful. Terran needs to have a strong counter to mutas that is not a light unit so that Zerg players can't force marines with muta and then obliterate them with banelings or infestors. If the Thor range is reduced, covering units from mutas in large battles will be impossible. Mutas will force terran to make marines.
Zerg players need to stop trying to get the thor's AA nerfed and think about the bigger picture. Why do you "need" a hard counter to mutalisks? You already have a hard counter to ground in the tank, a hard counter to heavy air with vikings, a hard counter to light units with blue flame hellion, etc etc. Give me a break, Terran doesn't NEED "hard counters" to every possible unit in the game. For mutas, you already have turrets and vikings vs muta in even numbers is about equal. Also, nerfing thor range by 1-2 doesn't make it any less of a hard counter AT ALL.
A unit like the mutalisk absolutely requires a hard counter that is not static defense due to their extreme mobility and massability. iechoic is right: one of the most brutal counters in the game are infesters and banelings against marines, so if thors are no longer cost effective against mutas TvZ will overwhelmingly favor zerg immediately. Mutas >> vikings due to muta splash damage and muta speed denying viking retreat.
A real discussion on TvZ balance should be focused on ground vs ground, which I think on the current maps slightly favors terran but not by much. Zerg players just need to understand that slamming their army into terran mech isn't going to go well. A mech army is designed to decimate other armies in a straight up battle, but its immobility can be exploited as frequently done by good zergs.
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make toss buildings psionic instead of armored
reasoning: marauders.
zerg aren't affected: ultra has the extra attack anyways. same for baneling and reapers. PvP would change a bit when it comes to ninja immortal drops though. and possibly void rays.
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On August 03 2010 05:06 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 05:06 oxxo wrote:
This thread is pathetic. Stop sitting on T1/2. No one's fault but your own if you can't be bothered to tech up while P and T have to and do to succeed. T3 of Zerg is not viable midgame Mr.Terran unless You have 4 bases and Your opponent is Casual AI
Uh have you seen what ultralisks do now?
They literally cut every single ground unit in the game to pieces
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On August 03 2010 05:16 PanzerDragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 05:06 Kurumi wrote:On August 03 2010 05:06 oxxo wrote:
This thread is pathetic. Stop sitting on T1/2. No one's fault but your own if you can't be bothered to tech up while P and T have to and do to succeed. T3 of Zerg is not viable midgame Mr.Terran unless You have 4 bases and Your opponent is Casual AI Uh have you seen what ultralisks do now? They literally cut every single ground unit in the game to pieces
You cant get ultralisks out early enough pal. Yes they are good but good luck getting the tech and upgrades and money required to get enough of them to be effective.
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On August 03 2010 04:31 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 04:27 Graven wrote:On August 03 2010 04:08 Necrosjef wrote:
Although I don't think Terran being too strong is the core issue. Zerg is simply too weak.
That's semantics. That's not semantics at all, that's a very distinguishing fact. Really. All of the Terran haters are basically screaming, "Make the game more boring by nerfing Terran!" Instead, how about we actually make Zerg truly viable and able to do well so we can see more varied play instead of nerfing and limiting Terran options.
It is semantics. It's not simply across the board Terran is OP. There are many specific variables that have led us to this point: TvZ being an imbalanced matchup. The response cannot be blind nerfs to Terran or blind buffs to Zerg as it will do more harm than good.
Your claim that we should simply buff Zerg and all will be fine is naive and my guess is that any proposed suggestion you give will create an imbalance in ZvP, which currently feels very balanced.
Terran is the strongest race right now because their versatilitiy and ability to deny scouting is giving them immense advantages in the mid-game. Those advantages translate into higher win percentages. Buffing various Zerg units will only baindaid the issue.
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Seeing as how the game has shipped now, I doubt they will make any such significant changes to gameplay mechanics, at least for quite a while.
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On August 03 2010 05:16 PanzerDragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 05:06 Kurumi wrote:On August 03 2010 05:06 oxxo wrote:
This thread is pathetic. Stop sitting on T1/2. No one's fault but your own if you can't be bothered to tech up while P and T have to and do to succeed. T3 of Zerg is not viable midgame Mr.Terran unless You have 4 bases and Your opponent is Casual AI Uh have you seen what ultralisks do now? They literally cut every single ground unit in the game to pieces
The problem with Zerg T3 is it takes significantly longer to get to compared to their T and P counterparts. And this isn't just the metagame - it's the straight up fucking build time that's incredibly ridiculous.
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On August 03 2010 05:14 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 05:05 teamsolid wrote:On August 03 2010 04:29 iEchoic wrote:
These balance changes really don't consider the entire spectrum of the game and the matchup. This is always the problem with user-created balance suggestions. This is why Blizzard balances the game and not the players.
Nerfing the thor's AA in any significant way will completely break the matchup. Vikings do not counter mutalisks. Terran only has two units that are "effective" against mutas - thors and marines. Thors are not as effective as people tend to believe (day[9] has been saying this for a while and he is very right), and marines are effective.
If the thor's AA ever reaches a point where it becomes less than a cost-effective counter against mutas, Terran will only be able to counter mutas with marines. As soon as that happens, muta/bling will be far, far too powerful. Terran needs to have a strong counter to mutas that is not a light unit so that Zerg players can't force marines with muta and then obliterate them with banelings or infestors. If the Thor range is reduced, covering units from mutas in large battles will be impossible. Mutas will force terran to make marines.
Zerg players need to stop trying to get the thor's AA nerfed and think about the bigger picture. Why do you "need" a hard counter to mutalisks? You already have a hard counter to ground in the tank, a hard counter to heavy air with vikings, a hard counter to light units with blue flame hellion, etc etc. Give me a break, Terran doesn't NEED "hard counters" to every possible unit in the game. For mutas, you already have turrets and vikings vs muta in even numbers is about equal. Also, nerfing thor range by 1-2 doesn't make it any less of a hard counter AT ALL. A unit like the mutalisk absolutely requires a hard counter that is not static defense due to their extreme mobility and massability. iechoic is right: one of the most brutal counters in the game are infesters and banelings against marines, so if thors are no longer cost effective against mutas TvZ will overwhelmingly favor zerg immediately. Mutas >> vikings due to muta splash damage and muta speed denying viking retreat. A real discussion on TvZ balance should be focused on ground vs ground, which I think on the current maps slightly favors terran but not by much. Zerg players just need to understand that slamming their army into terran mech isn't going to go well. A mech army is designed to decimate other armies in a straight up battle, but its immobility can be exploited as frequently done by good zergs.
There are many maps where Terran mech immobility cannot be exploited. What is widely considered the most balanced map -- Metalopolis -- feels fine...but every other map is either a slight disadvantage or Zerg or a HUGE disadvantage for Zerg.
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LOL @ the mule suggestion. That would actually make it better for terran. imagine an early thor push with marines scvs AND extra mules for repair. lol
LOL @ viking range reduction. If viking range got nerfed, Terran would have no way to deal with a protoss army of stalker zealot sentry and ranged collosus late game. Colls would just pull back while some stalkers pick off vikings.
LOL @ giving supply depots energy. This would allow protoss to feedback ur supply. It could be pretty broken late game during battles.
LOL @ medivac heal reduction. Its not like 1 medivac can heal a huge army by itsself. We need to produce 6-10 medivacs to sustain a big army. If this was reduced they probably wouldn't even be cost effective anymore. Maybe you should propose a buff in roach heal regen. I hope you haven't forgotten that ALL your units regen out the door, something that terran doesn't have at all.
LaLush i respect your skill and all, But it seems that you didn't even think about the impact your suggestions would have on other matchups. You should really think more before posting. Cheers!
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lol at the viking video - sorry but to show "micro imbalance on unit" while the other units are ai controlled is just senseless.
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Why do people think that banelings are avoidable? Maybe at tier 1 they are, but shouldn't Z's be using baneling drops like Sen?
Only thing you can do is spread out against that kind of tactic.
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On August 03 2010 05:22 ReachTheSky wrote:
LOL @ the mule suggestion. That would actually make it better for terran. imagine an early thor push with marines scvs AND extra mules for repair. lol
LOL @ viking range reduction. If viking range got nerfed, Terran would have no way to deal with a protoss army of stalker zealot sentry and ranged collosus late game. Colls would just pull back while some stalkers pick off vikings.
LOL @ giving supply depots energy. This would allow protoss to feedback ur supply. It could be pretty broken late game during battles.
LOL @ medivac heal reduction. Its not like 1 medivac can heal a huge army by itsself. We need to produce 6-10 medivacs to sustain a big army. If this was reduced they probably wouldn't even be cost effective anymore. Maybe you should propose a buff in roach heal regen. I hope you haven't forgotten that ALL your units regen out the door, something that terran doesn't have at all.
LaLush i respect your skill and all, But it seems that you didn't even think about the impact your suggestions would have on other matchups. You should really think more before posting. Cheers!
"Damnit,they're trying to make my favourite shiny Terran less mindless... FLAME THEM NOW"
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On August 03 2010 04:38 Defrag wrote:
I will repeat myself from the previous post, but I want to include everything there.
MULE revision
I would leave mule's like it is, but limit mule number possible to have to 2 for each command center you have. Or limiting to 2, and re-doing the mule to 25 energy ( like all races main macro mechanic ) and cutting it's effectivness in half, that would be most awesome.
That way there would be no spawning of 16 mules late in the game when some player forgot to macro at all and found himself with 4 full CC's. That would actually punish players for having bad macro and oh, yeah - no mining out of gold expo withing 30s.
Lowering/Lifting Supply Depots revision
Just make it non-instant, and take 6-8seconds, so there is actually a chance to abuse the fact that terran is moving out/in. Similar to spine/spore crawlers, they were nerfed to 12s which is A LOT.
Bunker revision
1) Make salvage not possible to use while under attack.
2) Make it take 10s, but instead of full refund make it return 10minerals per second - that way it doesnt get overnerfed with point 1).
About bunker construction, it would be awesome if units wouldnt lose target when SCV's move. Targeting building SCV's is a pain, but we can live with it - we dont want easy mode either.
Viking/Thor
I think Vikings are fine, thou in large numbers they completely destroy large number of Corruptors.
As for Thor's I think the unit is imbalanced itself, since atm only counter to Thor's are lings ( roaches get owned so badly, they could really use +armored bonus to be usefull at all, besides defending hellion harras or 2 gate zaelot pushes ). And lings in later stages of the game get eaten alive by anything.
Marauder
Suggestion: Give marauders' concussive shells a cooldown timer (like the stalker blink).
Sounds awesome, but it should be really, really low one to not overnerf the unit. Just make it slow every 2.5-3s, or something, which would mean every second shot without stimpack.
Medivac
Suggestion: Lower the heal rate. 13.5hp/sec is really high.
I think thats fine, banelings are the key. Only stupid situations is when there are small armies left like 4-5 lings+hydra or roach vs 1-2 marine + medivac and zerg cant kill a single marine.
Other suggestions:
1) bring back the stop-to-fire on Hellions. Does it need any comment? 4 properly microed hellions can take any number of speedlings.
Wow, a fragile anti-light unit can take out the unit its meant to counter with good micro? You know...just like 2 vultures could kill infinity lings in BW?
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On August 03 2010 05:19 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 05:16 PanzerDragoon wrote:On August 03 2010 05:06 Kurumi wrote:On August 03 2010 05:06 oxxo wrote:
This thread is pathetic. Stop sitting on T1/2. No one's fault but your own if you can't be bothered to tech up while P and T have to and do to succeed. T3 of Zerg is not viable midgame Mr.Terran unless You have 4 bases and Your opponent is Casual AI Uh have you seen what ultralisks do now? They literally cut every single ground unit in the game to pieces The problem with Zerg T3 is it takes significantly longer to get to compared to their T and P counterparts. And this isn't just the metagame - it's the straight up fucking build time that's incredibly ridiculous.
that's because you can build 7 at one time.
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On August 03 2010 05:17 tacrats wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 05:16 PanzerDragoon wrote:On August 03 2010 05:06 Kurumi wrote:On August 03 2010 05:06 oxxo wrote:
This thread is pathetic. Stop sitting on T1/2. No one's fault but your own if you can't be bothered to tech up while P and T have to and do to succeed. T3 of Zerg is not viable midgame Mr.Terran unless You have 4 bases and Your opponent is Casual AI Uh have you seen what ultralisks do now? They literally cut every single ground unit in the game to pieces You cant get ultralisks out early enough pal. Yes they are good but good luck getting the tech and upgrades and money required to get enough of them to be effective.
Idra has done just fine doing that, along with other top tier Zergs.
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On August 03 2010 05:27 PanzerDragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 05:19 Stratos_speAr wrote:On August 03 2010 05:16 PanzerDragoon wrote:On August 03 2010 05:06 Kurumi wrote:On August 03 2010 05:06 oxxo wrote:
This thread is pathetic. Stop sitting on T1/2. No one's fault but your own if you can't be bothered to tech up while P and T have to and do to succeed. T3 of Zerg is not viable midgame Mr.Terran unless You have 4 bases and Your opponent is Casual AI Uh have you seen what ultralisks do now? They literally cut every single ground unit in the game to pieces The problem with Zerg T3 is it takes significantly longer to get to compared to their T and P counterparts. And this isn't just the metagame - it's the straight up fucking build time that's incredibly ridiculous. that's because you can build 7 at one time.
if you have 4 bases or on 3 and cut production for a while to save minerals.
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On August 03 2010 05:27 PanzerDragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 05:17 tacrats wrote:On August 03 2010 05:16 PanzerDragoon wrote:On August 03 2010 05:06 Kurumi wrote:On August 03 2010 05:06 oxxo wrote:
This thread is pathetic. Stop sitting on T1/2. No one's fault but your own if you can't be bothered to tech up while P and T have to and do to succeed. T3 of Zerg is not viable midgame Mr.Terran unless You have 4 bases and Your opponent is Casual AI Uh have you seen what ultralisks do now? They literally cut every single ground unit in the game to pieces You cant get ultralisks out early enough pal. Yes they are good but good luck getting the tech and upgrades and money required to get enough of them to be effective. Idra has done just fine doing that, along with other top tier Zergs.
Idra also says terran is imba.
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