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On August 03 2010 05:42 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 05:39 graphene wrote:
to be fair why are terran players whining about reasonable changes, and no ultralisks dont get up in time, terran is the strongest race and admit it, dont have to be douches and denying fact. Agree so much with lalush ! Terran players are whining because by listing changes, no matter how small, the OP implies that there is something wrong with the Terran race and the TvZ matchup, and the Terrans take offense to that... They think everything is fine and dandy.
or maybe we feel we dont need to be nerfed? maybe we feel Z could use a buff instead? thats what alot of us think.
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Just to clarify: I don't think think TvZ is particularly imbalanced nowadays, but rather that it's alot more taxing on the zerg side of things. That's why most of these suggestions aren't meant to target balance or gameplay specifically, but rather force terrans to actually look away from their armies every once in a while.
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On August 03 2010 05:48 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 05:42 PanzerDragoon wrote:On August 03 2010 05:30 st3roids wrote:
@ op ur right at everything , but too many terran players atm to even bother , maybe with the expansions other races might come to par.
as for zerg ... i just switched it just not worth the time invenvested unless ur name is idra or cool and you play 15 hours a day .
About ultras ... both top 2 tier zerg units are the only ones that cant hit both air and ground.
Bcs can hit both air and ground doing ridiculus dmg , carriers can hit both as well and with the catapult upgrade plus + 1 dmg they are pretty good as well.
Having a bc can change drastically a fight , having an ultra changes nothing . BCs are insanely good, but cost a ton. Having ultras changes nothing? Did you watch any of the Razer Day9 tournament games? I saw Ultras crushing through mech armies like 3 times. And carriers are by far the worst tier 3 unit in the game, its literally impossible to transition to them without leaving a huge vulnerable window during the switch. Carriers are criminally underrated PvT. Unless you transitioned to them from a colossus build, where the Terran already had plenty of vikings around, they should be effective.
kinda agree. but think they should really lower the buildtime abit. also its hard to plan that far ahead cause you need atleast +1, better +2 for them to be scary.
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On August 03 2010 05:44 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Hate the supply depot change. Just too convoluted =/ How about requiring an SCV to salvage a structure (but maybe allow it for more structures in return - ie turrets)? I don't see a problem with medivacs healing - it's not like anyone thinks terran bio is imbalanced TvZ right? I like the viking change, but I would also like to see the thors damage going back up to 8+6 instead of 6+6; it's annoying that you have to build vikings to counter non-light air units. I'm fine with both units having their range lowered. Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 05:30 st3roids wrote:
@ op ur right at everything , but too many terran players atm to even bother , maybe with the expansions other races might come to par.
as for zerg ... i just switched it just not worth the time invenvested unless ur name is idra or cool and you play 15 hours a day .
About ultras ... both top 2 tier zerg units are the only ones that cant hit both air and ground.
Bcs can hit both air and ground doing ridiculus dmg , carriers can hit both as well and with the catapult upgrade plus + 1 dmg they are pretty good as well.
Having a bc can change drastically a fight , having an ultra changes nothing . If you think ultralisks are bad you are insane - it is a terrifying beast. Unlike banelings, it doesn't give a fuck about siege tanks.
I feel like his point about Medivac's healing is more a point about marauders in general. I mean, other than how medivac's healing can practically negate the damage component on FG, the healing itself is really only useful on marauders. Not like Z doesn't have FG and blings to gib marines faster than medivac can possibly heal. Personally, it is more the staying power that medivacs grant to marauders that rather scares me.
I'd think you would be more opposed to the suggestion on lowered range on viking because of TvP, colossi is quite a pain without the 9range viking snipes, no?
Yeah I wonder why people complain about ultras, it is the whole getting to ultras in one piece part that's hard, not the ultras themselves (barring that little nuisance with zergling walling against your own ultras, but nothing some micro can't fix).
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I agree changes need to be made. So many Terran can defeat my Zerg and most of them on just one base! How come they can put together such potent 'Terran death balls' so fast off 1 base that pulverize my 2-3 base midgame?
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Excellent post I love these changes.
TvZ is just so hard for zerg because of tank, thor, and viking range.
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How about thors outranging and raping most zerg units but hey what doesnt melt roached in terrans mech arsenal 
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the most annoying thing is the bunkerrush, scvs hiding inside bunkers are so random :-/ random factors have no place in starcraft.
Also if it'd require an scv to salvage it would be possible to stop them from pulling off the riskfree harass.
Like right now I have to pull drones, camp with an ovie and move queen slowly offcreep from my main in order to stop what is essentially a free harass...
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On August 03 2010 05:52 LaLuSh wrote:
Just to clarify: I don't think think TvZ is particularly imbalanced nowadays, but rather that it's alot more taxing on the zerg side of things. That's why most of these suggestions aren't meant to target balance or gameplay specifically, but rather force terrans to actually look away from their armies every once in a while.
You don't think its balanced but you name the thread TvZ balance suggestions? If you think its taxing on the zerg side of things why not propose zerg buffs rather than Terran nerfs?
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LaLush, my compliments on making your suggestions without being unnecessarily incendiary. More level-headed topics like this are greatly needed on TL I hope that Blizzard takes your ideas into consideration. Out of curiosity, do you see any merit to Idra's suggestion that the Bunker/Reaper/Barracks build time increases should be brought back?
On your topics:
I would say that Medivac heal should be lowered 25% but the cost of the Medivac lowered only 10-15%. This probably won't happen because Blizzard doesn't like weird unit costs (like 90/90 or 85/85) so as a more realistic suggestion, their heal should simply be lowered 15%.
Bunker salvage definitely needs to go to 50%--people have known this would be imbalanced since it was first announced and I can't understand how 100% salvage has stayed in the game for so long.
Finally, unless Thor range is to be lowered to 8, I think a nerf to their bonus damage to Light or splash radius will be needed. Personally I like reducing their splash radius--that will make it easier to spread Mutas to kill Thors, rewarding Zerg who carefully micro their Mutas.
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On August 03 2010 05:42 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 05:39 graphene wrote:
to be fair why are terran players whining about reasonable changes, and no ultralisks dont get up in time, terran is the strongest race and admit it, dont have to be douches and denying fact. Agree so much with lalush ! Terran players are whining because by listing changes, no matter how small, the OP implies that there is something wrong with the Terran race and the TvZ matchup, and the Terrans take offense to that... They think everything is fine and dandy.
Terrans think everything in fine and dandy because they have the best end of the stick. Easy macro and like 4 spells MAX to deal with makes playing terran, albeit at mid to low level, extremely easy. Try giving a terran some Hi Temps, and sentries with blink stalkers and see how fast they die to a stimed MM ball. Terran is OP.
On a less attacking terran note, I think MULEs are good as it, but I agree with everything else. (sniping a mule is the most gratifying thing ever.)
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imo building scv should always be on the outside of a structure but you should be able to tell on wich side.
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On August 03 2010 05:44 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Hate the supply depot change. Just too convoluted =/ How about requiring an SCV to salvage a structure (but maybe allow it for more structures in return - ie turrets)? I don't see a problem with medivacs healing - it's not like anyone thinks terran bio is imbalanced TvZ right? I like the viking change, but I would also like to see the thors damage going back up to 8+6 instead of 6+6; it's annoying that you have to build vikings to counter non-light air units. I'm fine with both units having their range lowered. Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 05:30 st3roids wrote:
@ op ur right at everything , but too many terran players atm to even bother , maybe with the expansions other races might come to par.
as for zerg ... i just switched it just not worth the time invenvested unless ur name is idra or cool and you play 15 hours a day .
About ultras ... both top 2 tier zerg units are the only ones that cant hit both air and ground.
Bcs can hit both air and ground doing ridiculus dmg , carriers can hit both as well and with the catapult upgrade plus + 1 dmg they are pretty good as well.
Having a bc can change drastically a fight , having an ultra changes nothing . If you think ultralisks are bad you are insane - it is a terrifying beast. Unlike banelings, it doesn't give a fuck about siege tanks.
dont u know math here guys or something , with a SINGLE BC is ur opponet hasnt got many aa ull win , with a single ultra nothing happens the cost it isnt That of significant - ultra cost 200/200 and Bc 400/300 or something , which with mules Terran can built a whole army through a single base anyway.
Yea if u can pull out 10 ultras vs terran mech that means u clearly outplayed him since as zerg ull have like 5 bases vs 2 base terran or something to be able to survive to ultras and spawn so many thank you very much for that.
And i see the whole tournament and the idra ultra thing vs tlo mech was pathetic , tlo was bad in the whole tournament turtling behind a base or 2 , whats ur point that idra outplayed him in that much , ok cool we agree
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If i had a penny for every time a zerg whined...
You guys complain that you have to play better to win with zerg but in BW terran was harder to play but there wasn't a million whine threads about making changes.
Suck it up...
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On August 03 2010 04:52 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
Decreasing thor range would be stupid. Thors are good against mutas but well spread mutas decimate thors on the battlefield (i.e., away from turrets) which most zergs refuse to understand (I lose to it all the time at high diamond level).
Thors are still cost effective against mutas. Look at earlier post.
Note that a unit that doesnt cost gas (hint: marine) also works well with thors.
The biggest problem ZvT is all the options T player have, and that there is nearly impossible to predict which comes. Z is VERY predictable and easy to scout as T. Z needs to FE to try outmacro T because unit to unit Z lose. Z needs to tech fast aswell to counter air (with potential stealth) and to scout (OL speed). Z needs to know exactly when to stop making drones. Z needs to know exactly how many units to make early game to stop harass (hellions). Z cant harass against a good T wall in, so T never needs to fear Z.
It just feels like Z is at T's mercy. T player must make mistakes to lose, while Z player must play perfect.
IMO the best solution is to make Z more interesting by adding options, not nerfing T. But I guess most of the options will not come before expansion 
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How can some1 claim to think objectively and at the same time not realize the difference between T and Z macro mechanics? one can be done with 40 apm while the other requires constant attention and scales with the number of expanions you have.... yes races should and are different.
not even about balance between units etc..just want the orbital command to require some skill and punish bad macro just like the Queen does.
DO people really not get this? I sense that some people havent even tried playing Zerg at all..
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To be honest the more i think about it, if you remove/nerf planetary fortresses i think id be happy with this match-up.
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well, i agree on the bunker refund/scv building thingy.
Yet it also has the problem of being very weak in 2v2 as a T when the scouting opponent can kill your building scv real fast (only 45hp now...)
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This thread has quickly devolved into a flame war (and an embarrassingly idiotic one at that)
I suggest a few of the better ideas are turned into topics of their own instead of this mass debate chaos
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Im probably just echoing other comments, but is this merely a Terran Nerf thread? I think it would be better to figure out ways around Terran mech rather than nerfing it all.
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EPT
