On August 03 2010 06:39 FromGorkyWithLove wrote: this post is a joke... i think that lalush is kind of a know name or something... but maybe hes 15 and doesnt really understand things...
i mean you listed liek 5 or 6 nerfs for terran?! i mean maybe just erase the whole race?!
Mule idea is kind of fine i guess....
anyway basicly the idea of the post is... TvZ is too hard for me so please make it so that i would be easier for me to play againt it.... thx... seriously?!
I've seen Lalush's games cased by HD and Husky. He's good, and has some good points. If you had read the whole thing instead of just coming in here with your bad spelling and grammar and bashing people because you're mad, I might understand your concern.
I play terran myself - 9th in Diamond league. And I've won so many zergs who were way better than me. I admit that TvZ is seriously broken (T is overpowered). Mech is ridiculously strong.
I also think that maradeurs are to strong when stimmed. I would suggest to bring firebats back instead of maradeurs. Tanks and thors already deal with armored stuff.
On August 03 2010 06:43 bokeevboke wrote: Agree on all OP points.
I play terran myself - 9th in Diamond league. And I've won so many zergs who were way better than me. I admit that TvZ is seriously broken (T is overpowered). Mech is ridiculously strong.
I also think that maradeurs are to strong when stimmed. I would suggest to bring firebats back instead of maradeurs. Tanks and thors already deal with armored stuff.
I just imagined Hellion's Blue Flame upgrade for Firebats.
On August 03 2010 04:15 Ksi wrote: Good to know I'm not the only one who thinks lowering the viking range and increasing their speed would help make protecting broodlords a bit more viable. The only problem is Vikings might become pretty useless at chasing down Void rays.
Why does no one ever consider just turning thors back to their pre-splash damage state in the beta, where they did more damage per shot, but didn't have splash. I mean really, between missile turrets, stimmed marines and hunter-seeker missiles, it's not like Terran doesn't have plenty of options already to deal with large groups of Mutalisks, is a 48 damage, 10 range, area of effect attack really necessary?
This. Mech vs zerg would be completely balanced if the terran actually needed to build vikings for AA instead of having super-unit thors which instantly destroy several times their value of mutalisks.
On August 03 2010 06:21 shynee wrote:
Asia seems to have no problems, neither does Idra.. but I guess its Idra right?
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Where did you get this idea? Idra constantly complains about mech imbalance and the asia-zerg phenomenon is from back before the roach nerf, yet people still keep bringing it up. Granted, you are right about some things. Since release, I haven't beaten a meching terran without tier 3. I'm noticing good zergs are throwing down infestation pit pretty much right after they hit tier 2. To beat tier 3 thors+tanks+hellions, you can't just use all tier 1.5-2 units (hydra roach), which is how it should be.
On August 03 2010 04:05 koppik wrote: While muling is pretty easy to do, Terran has two other abilities at its CC which are useful, especially scan, which eat up energy. Plus, muling is a pretty weak ability compared to larva inject. Chronoboost seems a bit too short, imo, and it gets the short end of the macro-ability stick. It's demanding to use regularly, requires some strategic thought to use properly when you use it, and it doesn't add that much.
Most of these would affect TvP a lot, a match-up some top players (F91, Loner) consider decidedly P-favored.
A thor AA range nerf is definitely warranted, though. They don't do a lot of damage to non-light as it is, though, as long as you remember to make sure your air army doesn't stack (with the move command).
"While muling is pretty easy to do, Terran has two other abilities at its CC which are useful, especially scan, which eat up energy"
I feel like you are saying that this is a bad thing for T. I would be more than happy (as a toss player) to take those abilities off your hand on to the nexus.....
"Plus, muling is a pretty weak ability compared to larva inject. " Of course its a weaker ability, but the zerg make their harvestors and their army via the same building unlike us. This was long overdue for zerg (since bw)
To OP:
"Most of these would affect TvP a lot, a match-up some top players (F91, Loner) consider decidedly P-favored."
I agree a nerf to some P units would be required if some of your proposed changes are to be implemented.
I think they game will balance once the 2 other expansions are out as I think zerg will get more units that can deal with T.
I like your approach of adjusting other mechanics. Not saying that your suggestions are right or needed but I think that's the right way to approach the balancing of the game currently. I also think making spells projectiles that can be dodged would greater help T bio and PvT.
On August 03 2010 06:39 FromGorkyWithLove wrote: this post is a joke... i think that lalush is kind of a know name or something... but maybe hes 15 and doesnt really understand things...
i mean you listed liek 5 or 6 nerfs for terran?! i mean maybe just erase the whole race?!
Mule idea is kind of fine i guess....
anyway basicly the idea of the post is... TvZ is too hard for me so please make it so that i would be easier for me to play againt it.... thx... seriously?!
I've seen Lalush's games cased by HD and Husky. He's good, and has some good points. If you had read the whole thing instead of just coming in here with your bad spelling and grammar and bashing people because you're mad, I might understand your concern.
Reread it. He clearly states that these are all just suggestions, even points out that not all of them would be realistically implemented. Most importantly he says that this is not a "DO ALL THESE THINGS" just a collection of possible balance changes, independant of one another.
So let's say op is microing perfectly and is able to fight 5 thors with 16 mutalisks. This is of course assuming no upgrades, no vikings, and mutalisks are in perfect health. Zerg is still losing about 600 gas in the battle and there is a possibility that you lose up to 30 mutalisks. This is kind of like saying marine medic can fight reaver in brood war with micro. You can but you really really do not want to. With the sick range of a reaver/thor if you accidentally click within vision range say bye to some units. [/QUOTE]Zerg has a big advantage in acquiring gas over Terrans with the ease of taking expansions and larva inject, so it's often not a bad idea to enter a bad trade. Beyond that, mutalisks are much, much more mobile than thors and are produced more quickly. It's more like marines vs. lurkers.
Still, it's obviously not a good idea to think, "he's going pure thor; I should get mutalisks." But you can use mutas to bottle in a Terran, for example:
Hyperdub is one of the best Korean Terrans. ArgOs really isn't one of Asia's best Zergs (but, obviously, he isn't bad, being that he's on the same team).[/QUOTE]
just a notice before posting videos ....
Have u rly seen this m8 , the zerg player had 4 bases vs 2 terran and had like 80% map control and couldnt win for so long.
If terran had 80% map dominance and 4 bases vs 2 zerg what will had happen.
most koreans btw least form ogs and prime dont go full mech anyway.
Threads like this should be closed imo, it's bad enough with people like Artosis whining about mech.
LaLush forgets about the implications of TvP if any of these changes came in. I don't see tourneys dominated by Terran and the game has been out less than a week so please, get on with it
LaLush: you have amazing ideas and i'm glad im not the only zerg player with rational and thought out ideas for terran mechanics and not the random 'omfg nerf nerf nerf etc'
as for your ideas; I definitely agree with the bunker salvage time. As of right now terran can bunker and bunker rush with disregard because there is almost no risk in doing so. Yea you may screw up scv production or have a production building a little later, but bunkering a zerg makes him invest in larvae into zerglings instead of drones which hurts him equally if not more in the early game.
In terms of the MULE change, again i agree with you entirely. Terran can save 200 energy and not have to pay or suffer. Whereas zerg will lose games if we forget to inject. Inject is a GREAT ability, but it comes with its drawbacks; we can't just pool energy and then inject the same hatchery multiple times simultaneously which is essentially what terran can do with their mules. Furthermore mules dont cost any food. Honestly, this is a huge advantage in the late game. 3-4 base terran can just mule their bases and sac scv for food; its happened and i hear it happens quite a bit in tvt late games.
Overall i feel the entire terran defense mechanic of being able to get a free block-off and tech to whatever they want is seriously unfair to the other races. yes a zerg can fast expo but think about it. how easy is it to harass a zerg player who does that? i'm talking reapers, hellions, thor drop, hellion drop, and the multiple other harasses that terran can pull off. The only real viable early aggression is a baneling bust and its a pretty all in, do or die, type of strat. Other wise any other early zerg aggression is easily fended off by scv repair, marine range etc.
Its a little scary to let a race with the best defensive capabilities also have the best harassment capabilities. Think about it, how many openers does a zerg have against a terran? baneling bust, a 1base muta or roach into FE, or FE. Now what about for terran, i think you'll figure out where i'm going with this. They can open up any tech tree while hiding behind the relative safety of their blockoff.
As for medivacs. i always wondered why they gutted the roach SO much. 1 food roach was pretty overpowered, but 2 food roach at the moment is just useless. ive found myself in games sacrificing my roaches for food so that i can make higher tier units. Organic carapace was such an amazing ability and one of the top reasons besides broodlord to even hit hive tech. I would really suggest giving it back at 10hps or 15hps. i agree medivacs are quite extreme. people cry about roaches, but really, what about marauders? lol. free stims and the ability to destroy buildings in a blink of an eye.
so many clueless posters here, who somehow manages to think lalush wants to implent EVERY idea he posted about, its just ideas... and he said that all of them wouldnt be good..dont you guys read?
On August 03 2010 07:05 Kvz wrote: LaLush: you have amazing ideas and i'm glad im not the only zerg player with rational and thought out ideas for terran mechanics and not the random 'omfg nerf nerf nerf etc'
as for your ideas; I definitely agree with the bunker salvage time. As of right now terran can bunker and bunker rush with disregard because there is almost no risk in doing so. Yea you may screw up scv production or have a production building a little later, but bunkering a zerg makes him invest in larvae into zerglings instead of drones which hurts him equally if not more in the early game.
In terms of the MULE change, again i agree with you entirely. Terran can save 200 energy and not have to pay or suffer. Whereas zerg will lose games if we forget to inject. Inject is a GREAT ability, but it comes with its drawbacks; we can't just pool energy and then inject the same hatchery multiple times simultaneously which is essentially what terran can do with their mules. Furthermore mules dont cost any food. Honestly, this is a huge advantage in the late game. 3-4 base terran can just mule their bases and sac scv for food; its happened and i hear it happens quite a bit in tvt late games.
Overall i feel the entire terran defense mechanic of being able to get a free block-off and tech to whatever they want is seriously unfair to the other races. yes a zerg can fast expo but think about it. how easy is it to harass a zerg player who does that? i'm talking reapers, hellions, thor drop, hellion drop, and the multiple other harasses that terran can pull off. The only real viable early aggression is a baneling bust and its a pretty all in, do or die, type of strat. Other wise any other early zerg aggression is easily fended off by scv repair, marine range etc.
Its a little scary to let a race with the best defensive capabilities also have the best harassment capabilities. Think about it, how many openers does a zerg have against a terran? baneling bust, a 1base muta or roach into FE, or FE. Now what about for terran, i think you'll figure out where i'm going with this. They can open up any tech tree while hiding behind the relative safety of their blockoff.
As for medivacs. i always wondered why they gutted the roach SO much. 1 food roach was pretty overpowered, but 2 food roach at the moment is just useless. ive found myself in games sacrificing my roaches for food so that i can make higher tier units. Organic carapace was such an amazing ability and one of the top reasons besides broodlord to even hit hive tech. I would really suggest giving it back at 10hps or 15hps. i agree medivacs are quite extreme. people cry about roaches, but really, what about marauders? lol. free stims and the ability to destroy buildings in a blink of an eye.
I'm sorry, if 1 food roach is overpowered, and 2 is useless, what do you expect them to do?
Also, the best defensive race, really needs the best hurassment units early on, since we can't just go around taking the map very quickly, especially as mech (bioball sucks against any form of baneling opening in TvZ, so we're forced to tech quickly). The way my games in Diamond go, is if my early hurassment works, I have an advantage, but if It fails, I generally end up losing the game in the long run.
Brood War had the problem of zerg being the best for hurassment, while also being the best overall agressor, I just don't know what you're expecting Terran to have to do, because quite honestly, if half of these changes are made, TvP would become almost impossible again.
The game has been out two weeks and nobody has really sat down and thought, right hmm... How can we beat this, and actually tried anything. There's just simply not enough time to make a fully based decision off of two weeks of a live release. Also, if terran are so overpowered, how come they are not winning all the tournaments right now?
Sorry if this has already been posted, but has no one considered the mechanics and timings of DT/burrow play?
The cost of scan would have to change, or the tech timing of dts would also have to change.
I am not exactly sure how, as that would have be a whole new thread. But they effectiveness of dt play is based on being able to properly spit ur forces vs a T so that one scan cant kill all the dts. Then the terran has to crysis manage until another scan(50) saves up. Would be lower the cost of scans? Then a constand 1 dt pump could waste away the entire t macro mechanic. With this mule revision, many other factors in the game would have to be factored in.
Alot of those are great idea, except the supply depot suggestion would pretty much break terran early game, terran are very vulnerable to rushes otherwise i find.
I agree with everything op says except for supply depots submerge and medivac healing rate is fine as is (and maybe some tweaking with your numbers). As a Terran I always thought that the Viking and Thor should require upgrades to get the range that they have. Starting out with that much range is too much. I think Vikings should start with 7 and have a +2 range upgrade vs. air and the thor should have range 8 and have a +2 range upgrade vs. air as well. Zergs do have a problem vs Terran because of all the long range units terran has in their arsenal, and Zerg doesnt get one until Tier 3 (Broodlord). I was going to wait for Blizzard to come up with a new siege unit for Zerg in an upcoming expansion. (Blizzard you better do it! o.o)
I just kinda want a mule cooldown timer so that if you messed up and accumulated a ton of energy on a OC, you'll be punished by having to go back. Like a 5-10 second cooldown on mule usage. Of course, doesn't stop a player from immediatleyi dropping 4 mules at a new expo lategame, but at least it's 4 mules at a itme instead of 8, causing them to have to go back to the base again for antoehr round, etc.
EPT
