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The thing that really confuses me is not the stuff that engenders (temp) bans and the like, but the stuff that gets let go. Almost every single thread I read here has posts where either:
a) some one replies in a aggressive manner when its quite clear that they have failed to read the OP / the thread
b) doesnt bother reading the whole thread / threads recent posts before replying e.g. asking when VOD's will be up, or for stream links when the info is in the OP or on the previous page.
The general level of pointless aggression and retarded one-up-man-ship is really sad. So many people seem to feel that their opinion is so important that they must reply, but are too lazy to read the thread properly or at all.
I am pretty sure that in the context of eSports TL has a neutral impact, all the superb content is offset by the impression that most inexperienced players/visitors would obtain by browsing, or even worse believe that this is how you are supposed to behave.
[typo]
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Interesting discussion here, but I think it comes down to the things chill was getting at with the whole "contribute or get out" lines. Look, this thread is 21 pages long, and it's not even a super popular topic. Every single other thread is packed to the gills with worthless, content-less posts that make it pointless or inefficient to try catching up on any thread at all. It takes less than a day for a new popular thread to be in the 10+ pages range. I wish they would ban even more, and view the ability to post here as a privilege easily lost.
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This is TLs forum, not yours.
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On September 25 2010 14:45 tarpman wrote:The preview button is great. I would probably have double the post count I do if the preview button weren't there. I probably would have been banned by now, too. It's always a good idea to review what you just wrote before you post it. Like with everything on the Internet: once it's out there, there's no retracting it. Long live TL moderation! Release the Kraken!
Dude? you get banned? your one of the few people from TL that I have met who drinks. Your in the clear...I think?
Also, TL needs a mod like rekrul just for the sc2 forum, and the overall happiness of the forum would increase.
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On September 26 2010 03:54 Gedrah wrote:
Interesting discussion here, but I think it comes down to the things chill was getting at with the whole "contribute or get out" lines. Look, this thread is 21 pages long, and it's not even a super popular topic. Every single other thread is packed to the gills with worthless, content-less posts that make it pointless or inefficient to try catching up on any thread at all. It takes less than a day for a new popular thread to be in the 10+ pages range. I wish they would ban even more, and view the ability to post here as a privilege easily lost.
You are completely right, I've been banned at least two times on TL on previous accounts but that was years ago. I've been here for a long ass time. Since 2004, I think.
Back then, there were no warning or temporary ban systems. The temporary ban system was recently implemented in 2007, if I remember correctly. The warning system is very recent as well.
Honestly, both systems are great at what they do. The only part where I find failure in moderating is the leniency. People are constantly warned. As much as 5 to 10 times. Finally, they are temporary banned for 2 days. They come back and are as big a dick as they were before.
They are warned 5 more times, then temp banned for 1 or 2 weeks. Finally they are banned for 30 days.
All in the course of one year. Where they had plenty of time to become better posters and stop shitting up the forum. Some people should be outright banned, quicker.
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On September 26 2010 04:04 Rev0lution wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2010 03:54 Gedrah wrote:
Interesting discussion here, but I think it comes down to the things chill was getting at with the whole "contribute or get out" lines. Look, this thread is 21 pages long, and it's not even a super popular topic. Every single other thread is packed to the gills with worthless, content-less posts that make it pointless or inefficient to try catching up on any thread at all. It takes less than a day for a new popular thread to be in the 10+ pages range. I wish they would ban even more, and view the ability to post here as a privilege easily lost. You are completely right, I've been banned at least two times on TL on previous accounts but that was years ago. I've been here for a long ass time. Since 2004, I think. Back then, there were no warning or temporary ban systems. The temporary ban system was recently implemented in 2007, if I remember correctly. The warning system is very recent as well. Honestly, both systems are great at what they do. The only part where I find failure in moderating is the leniency. People are constantly warned. As much as 5 to 10 times. Finally, they are temporary banned for 2 days. They come back and are as big a dick as they were before. They are warned 5 more times, then temp banned for 1 or 2 weeks. Finally they are banned for 30 days. All in the course of one year. Where they had plenty of time to become better posters and stop shitting up the forum. Some people should be outright banned, quicker.
I agree. While the end result is the same, I feel like posters like this can have a huge negative effect on the community. Continual low contribution lowers the bar on whats expected. The guy the OP quoted was a great example. His continual low contributions just cause other posters to react in poor ways, and derail threads.
If you see a thread where everyones just shitting around, then the expectations for your own behavior are set a lot lower too. A thread where everyone is serious, and your likely to be more serious as well. A few poor posters can have a much larger effect on the community as a whole beyond just there trash posts, and I think they need to be weeded out quicker.
I guess the fact that this is a gaming website, the majority of the moderators should be fairly younger than moderators from other forums. So maybe they are less patient or less forgiving as to how people express their ideas.
A lot of the moderators on the site are married individuals with families, and usually, the younger moderators tend to be far more lenient. (I'm pretty sure all my 2 week bans have been from Manifesto T_T)
So you're completely wrong basically.
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i think the mods are doing a very fine job. im glad its not like other fourm websites where there's no control over what people post
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On September 25 2010 14:32 Harem wrote:Not idra???? I expected better from the #1 fan. 
yeah, i thought TL admins didn't like him much though..
idra for mod would be brutal funny though
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Eh, I think that guy mentioned in the OP kinda deserved it...
But to be honest, I think there is some form of favor in the bannings. Sometimes people have been banned for very minor things (which should have been a warning at most), where other people in the same thread went on to attack others in the post - and they were not banned simply because the mods were in agreement with them. Ironically, the ones who were banned were the ones with differing opinions from the mods...
I've even had it happen to me once. Never even got a warning - just a week ban for expressing my opinion (in a fashion that did not go against any of TL's list of rules).
And while this is going on, theres countless other worthless posts that are let go? Many not even having a valid discussion with people flaming eachother... but others get banned that are expressing legitimate opinons? Doesnt make much sense.
But w/e, what are you going to do? I guess you cant have more bans without people getting banned who dont deserve it, or less people that dont deserve it getting banned w/o less overall bans.
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On September 25 2010 15:38 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 06:24 cz wrote:On September 25 2010 05:48 Manifesto7 wrote:On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:
While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes. I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased. Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell. On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.
His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_- On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote:
We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value. Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then. There are no shares because total ownership is in one person's hands or is in the hands of two or more people with an informal agreement. The bottom line, however, is that TL can both make money and has sell value. You don't get a check because the owner isn't willing to pay. It's the same thing with any website: pageviews and active membership create value that either is monetized or can be monetized through advertisement, direct sales, or so on. As a result the viewers add value to the site through their simple viewing of it (pageviews are a large factor in advertising rates) and through adding to the community which in turn attracts more. I think your perspective on how valuable your click is is way out there. Everything on the site is free, and if the side effect of you enjoying the content of the site is that we have a number to show an advertiser, that is not a direct contribution by you. It is a side effect of your presence. Even if you want to give a monetary value to your click, it is so out of whack with what you get in return that criticizing people for being thankful is really uncool. Your sense of entitlement is pretty sickening from my perspective. Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 11:04 youlijp wrote:
I guess the fact that this is a gaming website, the majority of the moderators should be fairly younger than moderators from other forums. So maybe they are less patient or less forgiving as to how people express their ideas.
But it's up to us users with accounts from this website to know that they are the authority in here, and therefore we got to follow their rules. Not all of us are young... :p
Business is business.
The bottom line is this:
1. TL will produce a profit for its owner, whether it has to this date or whether it will come in the future. Nazgul will make money from TL. The money that he makes will/has come from a variety of methods, whether direct sales (e.g. having a TL store), selling advertisements, or indirectly through gathering a userbase that can be monetized easily through another method, like shuttling it to LP and collecting rakeback %, lesson commissions, advertisements there, direct sales there, and the many many other ways that LP makes a profit.
2. Without users, the site would make no profit. A decrease in users will almost certainly decrease profit; an increase will increase it.
3. The profit is thus created as a result of monetization of the site directly and indirectly, which requires a userbase, which requires content.
4. Many people create content, but a lot of the hard stuff is done by Nazgul / others who are not considered part of the userbase.
5. This forms a mutually beneficial relationship for both parties: the owner makes profit off monetizing the userbase and the users enjoy the community and services (ie TLPD) produced by the owner.
6. Therefore the idea that the users as a whole are in a submissive place to the owner is incorrect: both are at the mercy of the other. No users, no profit and no point in having content even for non-profit purposes as nobody enjoys it; no site done by owner, no content for users to enjoy.
The point I was trying to correct was someone who contradicted point #6 by suggesting that users should just be happy with what they have and be quiet about it, as the site is putting in so much effort in creating content (TLPD, PowerRank, etc). As I stated above, it's a mutually beneficial relationship: while users should be happy content producers create content, the owner should be happy that users come here, and so users shouldn't feel that they are being done a favor: they are returning the favor, consciously or not, by being users. The owner is getting money in return. It's not about being entitled, it's about the acknowledgment of a mutually beneficial relationship in which both sides gain.
That's a business interpretation of the site. Don't read too much into it beyond what I wrote. It doesn't mean that Nazgul created the site to make money, or that he is trying to monetize it as much as he can. It doesn't mean that people create content here to make money. It doesn't mean that users are conscious they are creating a profit for the owner. It doesn't mean that any one user being banned/leaving the site would have any noticeable effect on the site or the balance book. But, unless one of my premises is wrong, it is a correct (though specifically business) view of TL.
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On September 26 2010 05:35 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 15:38 Manifesto7 wrote:On September 25 2010 06:24 cz wrote:On September 25 2010 05:48 Manifesto7 wrote:On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:
While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes. I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased. Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell. On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.
His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_- On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote:
We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value. Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then. There are no shares because total ownership is in one person's hands or is in the hands of two or more people with an informal agreement. The bottom line, however, is that TL can both make money and has sell value. You don't get a check because the owner isn't willing to pay. It's the same thing with any website: pageviews and active membership create value that either is monetized or can be monetized through advertisement, direct sales, or so on. As a result the viewers add value to the site through their simple viewing of it (pageviews are a large factor in advertising rates) and through adding to the community which in turn attracts more. I think your perspective on how valuable your click is is way out there. Everything on the site is free, and if the side effect of you enjoying the content of the site is that we have a number to show an advertiser, that is not a direct contribution by you. It is a side effect of your presence. Even if you want to give a monetary value to your click, it is so out of whack with what you get in return that criticizing people for being thankful is really uncool. Your sense of entitlement is pretty sickening from my perspective. On September 25 2010 11:04 youlijp wrote:
I guess the fact that this is a gaming website, the majority of the moderators should be fairly younger than moderators from other forums. So maybe they are less patient or less forgiving as to how people express their ideas.
But it's up to us users with accounts from this website to know that they are the authority in here, and therefore we got to follow their rules. Not all of us are young... :p Business is business. What I said is a more factually correct interpretation of teamliquid and its users than the person that I was responding to. And yes, me being a pageview is a direct contribution by me. It increases the financial value of the site, whether that is monetized directly, indirectly, now or later. Of course I was talking about the users in general, not just myself.
Not necessarily, by posting like shit you detract from the overall value of this site for other users, and can potentially make other users leave. Many longtime users have already stopped browsing TL due to the influx of SC2 players who post like crap.
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On September 26 2010 05:40 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2010 05:35 cz wrote:On September 25 2010 15:38 Manifesto7 wrote:On September 25 2010 06:24 cz wrote:On September 25 2010 05:48 Manifesto7 wrote:On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:
While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes. I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased. Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell. On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.
His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_- On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote:
We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value. Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then. There are no shares because total ownership is in one person's hands or is in the hands of two or more people with an informal agreement. The bottom line, however, is that TL can both make money and has sell value. You don't get a check because the owner isn't willing to pay. It's the same thing with any website: pageviews and active membership create value that either is monetized or can be monetized through advertisement, direct sales, or so on. As a result the viewers add value to the site through their simple viewing of it (pageviews are a large factor in advertising rates) and through adding to the community which in turn attracts more. I think your perspective on how valuable your click is is way out there. Everything on the site is free, and if the side effect of you enjoying the content of the site is that we have a number to show an advertiser, that is not a direct contribution by you. It is a side effect of your presence. Even if you want to give a monetary value to your click, it is so out of whack with what you get in return that criticizing people for being thankful is really uncool. Your sense of entitlement is pretty sickening from my perspective. On September 25 2010 11:04 youlijp wrote:
I guess the fact that this is a gaming website, the majority of the moderators should be fairly younger than moderators from other forums. So maybe they are less patient or less forgiving as to how people express their ideas.
But it's up to us users with accounts from this website to know that they are the authority in here, and therefore we got to follow their rules. Not all of us are young... :p Business is business. What I said is a more factually correct interpretation of teamliquid and its users than the person that I was responding to. And yes, me being a pageview is a direct contribution by me. It increases the financial value of the site, whether that is monetized directly, indirectly, now or later. Of course I was talking about the users in general, not just myself. Not necessarily, by posting like shit you detract from the overall value of this site for other users, and can potentially make other users leave. Many longtime users have already stopped browsing TL due to the influx of SC2 players who post like crap.
True, but I was talking about users in general, not specifically myself, and I don't post like shit anyway. That is Manifesto's spin of what I was saying.
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On September 26 2010 05:30 Spyridon wrote:
Eh, I think that guy mentioned in the OP kinda deserved it...
But to be honest, I think there is some form of favor in the bannings. Sometimes people have been banned for very minor things (which should have been a warning at most), where other people in the same thread went on to attack others in the post - and they were not banned simply because the mods were in agreement with them. Ironically, the ones who were banned were the ones with differing opinions from the mods...
I've even had it happen to me once. Never even got a warning - just a week ban for expressing my opinion (in a fashion that did not go against any of TL's list of rules).
And while this is going on, theres countless other worthless posts that are let go? Many not even having a valid discussion with people flaming eachother... but others get banned that are expressing legitimate opinons? Doesnt make much sense.
But w/e, what are you going to do? I guess you cant have more bans without people getting banned who dont deserve it, or less people that dont deserve it getting banned w/o less overall bans.
Please post some evidence. I feel like a lot of time people make general statements and once other people get to look at exactly what it was that caused the ban and also the context, the bans are justified. Also, a lot of people complain, hey how come I got banned and he didn't? Sometimes it just comes down to the fact that the mod saw your post and not his. They're not perfect gods who see all and know all. Personally, I think banning has been more lax recently. I see people getting warning A LOT when previously I feel like they would have been temp banned outright.
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United States24701 Posts
On September 26 2010 05:30 Spyridon wrote:
Eh, I think that guy mentioned in the OP kinda deserved it...
But to be honest, I think there is some form of favor in the bannings. Sometimes people have been banned for very minor things (which should have been a warning at most), where other people in the same thread went on to attack others in the post - and they were not banned simply because the mods were in agreement with them. Ironically, the ones who were banned were the ones with differing opinions from the mods...
I've even had it happen to me once. Never even got a warning - just a week ban for expressing my opinion (in a fashion that did not go against any of TL's list of rules).
And while this is going on, theres countless other worthless posts that are let go? Many not even having a valid discussion with people flaming eachother... but others get banned that are expressing legitimate opinons? Doesnt make much sense.
But w/e, what are you going to do? I guess you cant have more bans without people getting banned who dont deserve it, or less people that dont deserve it getting banned w/o less overall bans.
Can you substantiate these claims by providing some evidence? Usually more goes into bans/warnings than is publicly viewable... like history, messages etc... this has all already been discussed in this thread.
I'm starting to get sick of threads like these... not because nobody should be allowed to talk about this stuff, but rather because I'm finding post after post of people complaining how they or their friends were mistreated and when you actually investigate 9/10 times they weren't.
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Wow Im surprised you werent banned for your thread.....
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On September 26 2010 05:59 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2010 05:30 Spyridon wrote:
Eh, I think that guy mentioned in the OP kinda deserved it...
But to be honest, I think there is some form of favor in the bannings. Sometimes people have been banned for very minor things (which should have been a warning at most), where other people in the same thread went on to attack others in the post - and they were not banned simply because the mods were in agreement with them. Ironically, the ones who were banned were the ones with differing opinions from the mods...
I've even had it happen to me once. Never even got a warning - just a week ban for expressing my opinion (in a fashion that did not go against any of TL's list of rules).
And while this is going on, theres countless other worthless posts that are let go? Many not even having a valid discussion with people flaming eachother... but others get banned that are expressing legitimate opinons? Doesnt make much sense.
But w/e, what are you going to do? I guess you cant have more bans without people getting banned who dont deserve it, or less people that dont deserve it getting banned w/o less overall bans. Can you substantiate these claims by providing some evidence? Usually more goes into bans/warnings than is publicly viewable... like history, messages etc... this has all already been discussed in this thread. I'm starting to get sick of threads like these... not because nobody should be allowed to talk about this stuff, but rather because I'm finding post after post of people complaining how they or their friends were mistreated and when you actually investigate 9/10 times they weren't.
While I have never seen a warning/ban I disagreed with, I did raise an eyebrow in a few threads where hundreds of people were making bad posts and only some of them had red text at the bottom. It seems like when is an excessive amount of bad posts in a long thread, mods get tired of sending out warnings so they stop and just let people get away with it. What may look bad to someone reading the thread is that the few posts that DO get warned/banned are not any worse than the crappy posts that don't have red text at the bottom.
If you need an example, there was one thread where a bronze player was making observations on the bronze league metagame. Many people, including some very good posters, did not read the thread properly and made polite posts trying to be helpful, and got warned for their reading comprehension. That's fair game for mods, since they were missing the point of the thread. However, there were also several posts that were just as off topic, yet also had an incredibly condescending/BM tone on top of that, but did not get warned/banned. I think what's happening is that mods occasionally miss a crappy post, making people think such posting quality is acceptable on teamliquid.
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United States22883 Posts
On September 26 2010 05:35 cz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 15:38 Manifesto7 wrote:On September 25 2010 06:24 cz wrote:On September 25 2010 05:48 Manifesto7 wrote:On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:
While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes. I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased. Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell. On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.
His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_- On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote:
We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value. Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then. There are no shares because total ownership is in one person's hands or is in the hands of two or more people with an informal agreement. The bottom line, however, is that TL can both make money and has sell value. You don't get a check because the owner isn't willing to pay. It's the same thing with any website: pageviews and active membership create value that either is monetized or can be monetized through advertisement, direct sales, or so on. As a result the viewers add value to the site through their simple viewing of it (pageviews are a large factor in advertising rates) and through adding to the community which in turn attracts more. I think your perspective on how valuable your click is is way out there. Everything on the site is free, and if the side effect of you enjoying the content of the site is that we have a number to show an advertiser, that is not a direct contribution by you. It is a side effect of your presence. Even if you want to give a monetary value to your click, it is so out of whack with what you get in return that criticizing people for being thankful is really uncool. Your sense of entitlement is pretty sickening from my perspective. On September 25 2010 11:04 youlijp wrote:
I guess the fact that this is a gaming website, the majority of the moderators should be fairly younger than moderators from other forums. So maybe they are less patient or less forgiving as to how people express their ideas.
But it's up to us users with accounts from this website to know that they are the authority in here, and therefore we got to follow their rules. Not all of us are young... :p Business is business. The bottom line is this: 1. TL will produce a profit for its owner, whether it has to this date or whether it will come in the future. Nazgul will make money from TL. The money that he makes will/has come from a variety of methods, whether direct sales (e.g. having a TL store), selling advertisements, or indirectly through gathering a userbase that can be monetized easily through another method, like shuttling it to LP and collecting rakeback %, lesson commissions, advertisements there, direct sales there, and the many many other ways that LP makes a profit. 2. Without users, the site would make no profit. A decrease in users will almost certainly decrease profit; an increase will increase it. 3. The profit is thus created as a result of monetization of the site directly and indirectly, which requires a userbase, which requires content. 4. Many people create content, but a lot of the hard stuff is done by Nazgul / others who are not considered part of the userbase. 5. This forms a mutually beneficial relationship for both parties: the owner makes profit off monetizing the userbase and the users enjoy the community and services (ie TLPD) produced by the owner. 6. Therefore the idea that the users as a whole are in a submissive place to the owner is incorrect: both are at the mercy of the other. No users, no profit and no point in having content even for non-profit purposes as nobody enjoys it; no site done by owner, no content for users to enjoy. The point I was trying to correct was someone who contradicted point #6 by suggesting that users should just be happy with what they have and be quiet about it, as the site is putting in so much effort in creating content (TLPD, PowerRank, etc). As I stated above, it's a mutually beneficial relationship: while users should be happy content producers create content, the owner should be happy that users come here, and so users shouldn't feel that they are being done a favor: they are returning the favor, consciously or not, by being users. The owner is getting money in return. It's not about being entitled, it's about the acknowledgment of a mutually beneficial relationship in which both sides gain. That's a business interpretation of the site. Don't read too much into it beyond what I wrote. It doesn't mean that Nazgul created the site to make money, or that he is trying to monetize it as much as he can. It doesn't mean that people create content here to make money. It doesn't mean that users are conscious they are creating a profit for the owner. It doesn't mean that any one user being banned/leaving the site would have any noticeable effect on the site or the balance book. But, unless one of my premises is wrong, it is a correct (though specifically business) view of TL.
This is one of the silliest derailments I've seen in some time.
The point I was trying to correct was someone who contradicted point #6 by suggesting that users should just be happy with what they have and be quiet about it
I think the person who said that clarified their meaning you're taking their words too literally, but absolutely users should speak up. I think criticism is welcome and most importantly necessary for us to keep TL on the path it's been going. We make mistakes and things need to be improved. No one should shy away from vocalizing those thoughts simply because the good outweighs the bad. I hope this seals your discussion.
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On September 26 2010 06:36 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2010 05:35 cz wrote:On September 25 2010 15:38 Manifesto7 wrote:On September 25 2010 06:24 cz wrote:On September 25 2010 05:48 Manifesto7 wrote:On September 25 2010 03:52 SweeTLemonS[TPR] wrote:
While I agree with most everything you say here, I've never seen an incorrect ban fixed (could just go on in MiR I guess). I suppose that it could have changed since when I was banned once, long ago (on some total bullshit reason, that Beyonder agreed was an unnecessary ban on IRC, but wouldn't undo my ban). But if I had one complaint about moderation here, it would be the perceived infallibility mods seem to have, and the collusion between them. Certainly it makes sense that mods would agree with each other for the most part, and certainly in front of all the regular posters (you need that sort of continuity so people don't think the moderation at the site is shit, of course), but mods here seem pretty arrogant about their status sometimes. I would say once or twice a week there is a ban that is either reversed or reduced in length. That isn't a lot, but it is consistently happening. Discussions take place in the mod section, and there is no "This user was unbanned" message. Perhaps it should be manually written in when their scarlet letter is erased. Usually those bans aren't malicious mod bans. Mods are humans too, and sometimes they misread the context of a post. I warned someone for a lousy post which he intended as joke. He PMed to explain it to me and I erased it. Sometimes it is hard to tell. On September 25 2010 05:08 cz wrote:This is how I always get in trouble. Some guy goes after me, mods ignore, I respond, mods temp ban me.
His post and your post were made 4 minutes apart. I am not yet hooked into TL via neural network, so I still actually have to browse the site and read with my eyes. -_- On September 25 2010 04:52 cz wrote:
We are the site. This site is nothing without the users. TL would go under if nobody visited. TL is not doing you a favor by existing, you are doing the owner a favor by adding equity (as a pageview or as a part of the community) by being here. TL is a business, not a charity house: there's a reason why you aren't allowed to own part of its shares, even as a silent partner: those shares have monetary value. Of course TL needs users but the rest of this is almost all rubbish. Users add pageviews and take bandwidth. It is a two way relationship. And guess what, mods are users of the site too. We just happen to be the ones that help keep the place clean. You cannot equate the TL entity to the mods. And yes, technically there are owners, but if TL is a business, where is my cheaque? What are these shares with monetary value you speak of? When TL starts charging people to be a member you may have a point, but not until then. There are no shares because total ownership is in one person's hands or is in the hands of two or more people with an informal agreement. The bottom line, however, is that TL can both make money and has sell value. You don't get a check because the owner isn't willing to pay. It's the same thing with any website: pageviews and active membership create value that either is monetized or can be monetized through advertisement, direct sales, or so on. As a result the viewers add value to the site through their simple viewing of it (pageviews are a large factor in advertising rates) and through adding to the community which in turn attracts more. I think your perspective on how valuable your click is is way out there. Everything on the site is free, and if the side effect of you enjoying the content of the site is that we have a number to show an advertiser, that is not a direct contribution by you. It is a side effect of your presence. Even if you want to give a monetary value to your click, it is so out of whack with what you get in return that criticizing people for being thankful is really uncool. Your sense of entitlement is pretty sickening from my perspective. On September 25 2010 11:04 youlijp wrote:
I guess the fact that this is a gaming website, the majority of the moderators should be fairly younger than moderators from other forums. So maybe they are less patient or less forgiving as to how people express their ideas.
But it's up to us users with accounts from this website to know that they are the authority in here, and therefore we got to follow their rules. Not all of us are young... :p Business is business. The bottom line is this: 1. TL will produce a profit for its owner, whether it has to this date or whether it will come in the future. Nazgul will make money from TL. The money that he makes will/has come from a variety of methods, whether direct sales (e.g. having a TL store), selling advertisements, or indirectly through gathering a userbase that can be monetized easily through another method, like shuttling it to LP and collecting rakeback %, lesson commissions, advertisements there, direct sales there, and the many many other ways that LP makes a profit. 2. Without users, the site would make no profit. A decrease in users will almost certainly decrease profit; an increase will increase it. 3. The profit is thus created as a result of monetization of the site directly and indirectly, which requires a userbase, which requires content. 4. Many people create content, but a lot of the hard stuff is done by Nazgul / others who are not considered part of the userbase. 5. This forms a mutually beneficial relationship for both parties: the owner makes profit off monetizing the userbase and the users enjoy the community and services (ie TLPD) produced by the owner. 6. Therefore the idea that the users as a whole are in a submissive place to the owner is incorrect: both are at the mercy of the other. No users, no profit and no point in having content even for non-profit purposes as nobody enjoys it; no site done by owner, no content for users to enjoy. The point I was trying to correct was someone who contradicted point #6 by suggesting that users should just be happy with what they have and be quiet about it, as the site is putting in so much effort in creating content (TLPD, PowerRank, etc). As I stated above, it's a mutually beneficial relationship: while users should be happy content producers create content, the owner should be happy that users come here, and so users shouldn't feel that they are being done a favor: they are returning the favor, consciously or not, by being users. The owner is getting money in return. It's not about being entitled, it's about the acknowledgment of a mutually beneficial relationship in which both sides gain. That's a business interpretation of the site. Don't read too much into it beyond what I wrote. It doesn't mean that Nazgul created the site to make money, or that he is trying to monetize it as much as he can. It doesn't mean that people create content here to make money. It doesn't mean that users are conscious they are creating a profit for the owner. It doesn't mean that any one user being banned/leaving the site would have any noticeable effect on the site or the balance book. But, unless one of my premises is wrong, it is a correct (though specifically business) view of TL. This is one of the silliest derailments I've seen in some time. Show nested quote +The point I was trying to correct was someone who contradicted point #6 by suggesting that users should just be happy with what they have and be quiet about it I think the person who said that clarified their meaning you're taking their words too literally, but absolutely users should speak up. I think criticism is welcome and most importantly necessary for us to keep TL on the path it's been going. We make mistakes and things need to be improved. No one should shy away from vocalizing those thoughts simply because the good outweighs the bad. I hope this seals your discussion.
The only reason I was continuing that "derailment" was because it was constantly being disagreed with. I agree with your general conclusion, though, and am finished with it, though I suspect you will find that it is not as sealed as you think.
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United States24701 Posts
On September 26 2010 06:31 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2010 05:59 micronesia wrote:On September 26 2010 05:30 Spyridon wrote:
Eh, I think that guy mentioned in the OP kinda deserved it...
But to be honest, I think there is some form of favor in the bannings. Sometimes people have been banned for very minor things (which should have been a warning at most), where other people in the same thread went on to attack others in the post - and they were not banned simply because the mods were in agreement with them. Ironically, the ones who were banned were the ones with differing opinions from the mods...
I've even had it happen to me once. Never even got a warning - just a week ban for expressing my opinion (in a fashion that did not go against any of TL's list of rules).
And while this is going on, theres countless other worthless posts that are let go? Many not even having a valid discussion with people flaming eachother... but others get banned that are expressing legitimate opinons? Doesnt make much sense.
But w/e, what are you going to do? I guess you cant have more bans without people getting banned who dont deserve it, or less people that dont deserve it getting banned w/o less overall bans. Can you substantiate these claims by providing some evidence? Usually more goes into bans/warnings than is publicly viewable... like history, messages etc... this has all already been discussed in this thread. I'm starting to get sick of threads like these... not because nobody should be allowed to talk about this stuff, but rather because I'm finding post after post of people complaining how they or their friends were mistreated and when you actually investigate 9/10 times they weren't. While I have never seen a warning/ban I disagreed with, I did raise an eyebrow in a few threads where hundreds of people were making bad posts and only some of them had red text at the bottom. It seems like when is an excessive amount of bad posts in a long thread, mods get tired of sending out warnings so they stop and just let people get away with it. What may look bad to someone reading the thread is that the few posts that DO get warned/banned are not any worse than the crappy posts that don't have red text at the bottom. If you need an example, there was one thread where a bronze player was making observations on the bronze league metagame. Many people, including some very good posters, did not read the thread properly and made polite posts trying to be helpful, and got warned for their reading comprehension. That's fair game for mods, since they were missing the point of the thread. However, there were also several posts that were just as off topic, yet also had an incredibly condescending/BM tone on top of that, but did not get warned/banned. I think what's happening is that mods occasionally miss a crappy post, making people think such posting quality is acceptable on teamliquid.
Yeah that is definitely an issue sometime. It's virtually impossible to moderate every post the same way. Obviously a goal is to be consistent.
But you still did the very thing that bothers me... you made a cursory reference to some example of poor moderation rather than actually providing the evidence to support it. I'm not saying you can't find an example of someone getting warned/banned or not warned/banned in a bad fashion, but most of the time when people claim they have found such examples they really haven't. If you think improvement is necessary then link to the exact post in question. Even if you don't want to do it for this example you are trying to show, then keep it in mind for the future.
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On September 26 2010 03:58 Sanguinarius wrote:
This is TLs forum, not yours.
What does that even mean? TL is nothing more than the sum of its members. The only reason TL exists is because of the people that are part of it.
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