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4 Posts
Official Blizzard Post: https://news.blizzard.com/en-us/starcraft2/24140120/starcraft-ii-5-0-14-ptr-update
(Read original PTR patch notes/changes from October 21)
Greetings from the StarCraft II Community Balance Council!
First off, we would like to thank everyone for providing feedback on and testing the previously proposed changes. We would also like to reassure that the balance updates are a joint effort from the entiry community, and your feedback is very important for the direction the Balance Council is heading. Upon analysing the perception of the first iteration of this balance patch and the games played on the PTR server, we would like make the following adjustments for further testing.
Battery Overcharge removal
Developer Comment: After receiving playtesting feedback, we see that many players have enjoyed the flexibility provided by the new ability, and we would like to continue testing this proposed change. However there has also been a strong concern about Protoss defense in the early game after losing the Battery Overcharge ability, specifically against Terran rushes. We will be testing the following changes to try and improve Protoss's ability to defend in these scenarios:
Cyclone
- Cyclone changes from 5.0.12 / 5.0.13 reverted.
Developer Comment: The Cyclone changes from 5.0.12, despite indeed bringing the unit back to play in all matchups as originally planned, have also led to reduced Protoss build diversity in the early game, as well as leading to certain troubles while defending rush builds in the Terran vs Protoss matchup. We think reverting to the old Cyclone, which was being requested from a major part of the community, can also improve Protoss early game build diversity and stability.
Stalker
- Stalker train time (Gateway) reduced from 30 seconds to 27 seconds.
Developer Comment: The Stalker build time change is added to help address builds such as proxy 2 Barracks Marauder, which were very difficult to defend even with the Battery Overcharge ability. We think that this change will allow Protoss to more comfortably defend similar rush builds, but we will also closely monitor the consequences of this change for aggressive Protoss builds.
Late-game concerns
Ghost
- Ghost supply increased from 2 to 3.
Developer Comment: With the release of PTR, we've received additional feedback from the progamers and community members that Ghosts power level seems to be too high for their cost and supply, despite multiple targeted nerfs in the recent years. Following this feedback, we would like to directly adjust the Terran army's lategame strength through this change.
Mothership
- Mothership now can no longer be targeted by Abduct.
Developer Comment: We have received strong community feedback about this change, since the Mothership was made untargetable by Neural Parasite in the past. With the changes back to 400/400 cost/8 supply Mothership, we would like to test this idea to make the Mothership less fragile in the Zerg vs Protoss matchup.
Ultralisk
- Ultralisk Anabolic Synthesis bonus move speed reduced from 0.82 to 0.59.
Developer Comment: We would like to test a slight reduction in the move speed of Ultralisks, bringing it down to the same move speed as stimmed Marines/Marauders. This is to try and make Terran players feel more comfortable moving out on the map in the late-game, as well as balance out increases in strength from the push priority change.
Removed changes
- Brood Lord changes removed.
- Tempest damage point change removed.
- Liberator changes removed.
Developer Comment: We agree to feedback received that these changes could lead to more drawn out games, which this patch is trying to move away from, and these changes are no longer being tested. With Ghosts being weakened as well, we no longer believe that Brood Lords changes are needed to adjust the level of its power.
Other changes
Hydralisk
- Dash (name is not finalized) speed bonus increased from 60% to 100%.
- Dash is now point targeted, giving the Hydralisk a move order to the target location.
Developer Comment: The previously tested functionality was too hard to make use of for many players, so we would like to make this adjustment to try and make the ability more functional and powerful.
Lurker
- Lurker health reduced from 200 to 190.
- Lurker sight increases from 10 to 11.
Developer Comment: As we continue to test the Disruptor changes, we would like to reduce the Lurker health to 190 so it will not survive 2 Purification Nova hits. The sight range is also being increased to fix an issue caused by the Lurker having identical attack and sight ranges, leading to its attack range having slight inconsistencies depending on angle.
Removed changes
- Missile Turret Salvage change removed.
Developer Comment: We agree with feedback that this change would be counter-productive to making less drawn out defensive games. We are continuing to test the addition of the Salvage ability to the Sensor Tower, as it should allow for more interesting usage of the Sensor Tower in accordance with the other proposed Sensor Tower changes.
- Blue Flame change removed.
- Spine Crawler changes removed.
Developer Comment: We believe that Spine Crawler adjustment is a risky change as it would lead to proxy Hatchery strategies in Zerg vs Protoss being significantly stronger, as well as increasing the strength of 12pool + Drone rushes in Zerg vs Zerg. With Spines back to their old power and Zergs being less reliant on Queens, we would like to also revert the Blue Flame change as in the current state of balance this might reduce Zerg's build order variety to only Roach-based openings.
Full Updated Changelog
Protoss
Nexus
- Battery Overcharge removed.
- New ability: Energy Recharge (50 Energy / 60 second cooldown)
- Recharges 100 Energy to any unit or structure within 8 range of a Nexus.
Shield Battery
- Shields/HP increased from 150/150 to 200/200.
Stalker
- Train time from Gateway reduced from 30 to 27 seconds.
Colossus
- Shields/HP changed from 150/200 to 100/250.
Tempest
- Supply Cost reduced from 5 to 4.
- vs Air attack range reduced from 14 to 13.
Immortal
- Cost reduced from 275/100 to 250/100.
- Weapon cooldown increased from 1.04 to 1.14.
Disruptor
- Purification Nova radius increased from 1.375 to 1.5.
- Purification Nova damage reduced from 145 (200 vs shields) to 100 (200 vs shields).
Mothership
- Cost increased from 300/300 to 400/400.
- Supply cost increased from 6 to 8.
- Mothership now can no longer be targeted by Abduct.
- Damage increased from 6x6 to 6x4x4 (36 damage vs 1 target to 24 damage vs 4 targets each).
Terran
Cyclone
- Reverted to patch 5.0.11 Cyclone.
Salvage
- Damage now cancels the Salvage process.
- Salvage timer is now visible to enemies.
Planetary Fortress
- Armor reduced from 3 to 2.
Sensor Tower
- Cost reduced from 125/100 to 100/50.
- Radar range reduced from 27 to 22.
- Can now be salvaged.
Orbital Command
- Calldown: Extra Supplies increases the target Supply Depot's current/max health to 500.
Ghost
- Supply cost increased from 2 to 3.
Thor
- Explosive Payload (splash mode) damage increased from 6 (12 vs light) to 8 (12 vs light).
- Explosive Payload splash radius increased from 0.5/100% to 0.5/100%, 0.75/75%, 1.25/50% (radius/damage %).
- Explosive Payload attack range reduced from 10 to 7.
Zerg
Queen
- Cost increased from 150/0 to 175/0.
Hatchery
- Cost reduced from 300/0 to 275/0.
Spore Crawler
- Damage increased from 15 to 20.
- Health reduced from 400 to 300.
Hydralisk
- Muscular augments creep speed bonus reduced from 1.03 to 0.74.
- New research: Frenzy (name is not finalized)
- Cost: 100/100, 64 seconds. Requires Hive.
- Increases move speed by 100% for 0.71 seconds.
Infestor
- Microbial Shroud now lasts for 3.6 seconds on units leaving the Shroud.
Ultralisk
- Increased allied push priority from 0 to 1 (now pushes allied units out of the way when moving).
- Anabolic Synthesis move speed bonus reduced from 0.82 to 0.57.
Bug fixes & Quality of Life changes
- Orbital Command Scanner Sweep visual now uses team color.
- Command Center, Nexus and Hatchery now auto rally to mineral fields.
- Workers waiting for Refinery, Extractor or Assimilator to finish do not count as idle.
- SCV random delay between moving while building adjusted from 3.57- 7.14 to 4.64-6.07 (same average).
- Added icon to command card for Infestor, Hellion, Hellbat showing unupgraded passive upgrades.
- Siege Tank and Immortal tracking change from previous patch reverted due to causing unintentional retargeting.
- Fixed an issue where blinding cloud caused certain melee units attacks to be more easily canceled.
- Fixed an issue where blinding cloud could cause Planetaries to not be attack units at melee range in certain angles.
- Fixed an issue with issuing orders on certain types of rocks in fog.
- Fixed an issue with Changeling zealot move animation speed.
- Tweaked Hydralisk move animation speed to match it’s actual movement speed.
- Fixed an issue where Gravaton Beam could be cancelled within 0.04 seconds of casting by teleport/transport abilities.
- Fixed an issue where Lurker's attack could be cancelled when the target leaves range/dies and no other unit is in attack range.
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Largely good changes. The ghost nerf was overdue. The direction of most other changes is appropriate as well.
However, Protoss should get back battery overcharge in addition to energy overcharge; and the broodlord should get its buff as previously intended.
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I'll post the same thing here I guess, in combination with the new map pool that is less terran friendly I am quite confident that protoss is going to be a little too strong now, but we'll see.
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I love the Ghost change. Nerfs the unit where it's at its most problematic while not nerfing its important interactions with enemy spell casters.
Also love how it encourages Terrans to treat Ghosts like a Specialist unit again instead of massing them which is what they are designed to be.
Not crazy about the Mothership getting special immunity from Abduct since I think it's bad design, but that entire unit is bad design. I wish they'd just replace it with Arbiters and call it a day.
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Germany15880 Posts
Doesn't seem to bad but not sure how terran is supposed to win TvZ lategame now. I don't see any changes to compensate Ghost nerf?
Zerg now definitely seems like the winner of the patch with P and T mostly nerfed
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We would also like to reassure that the balance updates are a joint effort from the entiry community, and your feedback is very important for the direction the Balance Council is heading
Someone read my TL post 🙃
Until they add a way to deal with mass bc ghost, they are still not addressing problems at the lower level. I've had enough games vs Ruff where he turtles on 3 bases on bc ghost and amoves me on 8 base. Tempests are so trash.
Also lol at proposing then walking back such insane liberator buffs and disruptor/overcharge nerfs that now people see this as better when it's still a big nerf for protoss.
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On November 01 2024 05:22 Charoisaur wrote:
Doesn't seem to bad but not sure how terran is supposed to win TvZ lategame now. I don't see any changes to compensate Ghost nerf?
Zerg now definitely seems like the winner of the patch with P and T mostly nerfed
They basically said, Terran players figure it out yourself. Late game TvZ will be even more turtling than before, with PF/Tank/Libs instead of Ghost.
Edit: Also the Cyclone revert will impact mostly TvT opening, Cyclone will now be made as an early defensive units and thats about it.
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(humming) democracy is coming...to the USA... (/humming)
Glad to see the Balance Council responding to such overwhelming feedback! And with very bold changes.
The cyclone nerf is huge. I will miss the new cyclone just a little (probably alone among Protoss players); but there's no question that that change very negatively affected PvT build diversity and kind of threw the whole matchup into disarray. And the Stalker change is actually very very nice! It's a straight-up buff, but a very targeted one. My only question is that it's unclear to me how much this will help with the kind of Tank pushes that were most buffed by Overcharge removal and seemed like the biggest potential problem? Also I think that this set of changes will be so impactful for early game TvP that it's conceivable Terran might eventually need some help. But overall restoring Protoss build order diversity and even giving them some potential cheeses early game again is very very good. It has the potential to just straight-up improve the matchup, regardless of how the balance eventually shakes out.
I am also one of the few people who hasn't been particularly anti-Ghost. At least for PvT, I think I would much rather see the Liberator nerfed than the Ghost, as it seems more unfun and a bigger problem; but I think this will be a good change for ZvT and is probably way overdue. Will have to see how big it ends up being.
I am sad to see the Liberator restored unchanged, including all the terrible range interactions where you have to get a Stargate; but I can understand that having made some big changes to PvT early game they don't want to nerf late game too much. But then, this really wasn't a Liberator nerf anyway? Idk, I still think Liberator changes to make it less oppressive in PvT would be very very good, and hopefully they will actually get to that in a meaningful way.
Also not too sure about the Disruptor changes, but restoring the Lurker interaction is good. Will need to see more how this works out. If Protoss early game is better but then Terran getting out Liberators is even more of a little-counterplay power swing, it's still a problem imo.
Very very glad to see them listening to the feedback and unbuffing Turrets and Spines, but confused by them keeping the Spore Crawler buff in. Even with the Queen changes, this seems like a nerf to PvZ Stargate openers? Tho I guess with the new Overcharge ability that will help Oracle openers. I don't really get it still though.
Anyway, the other things seem pretty straightforward; making Mothership unabductable isn't that big of a deal, but it's something people have been asking for whatever so it's a nice thing to toss to the populus as it were.
For all the criticisms, I feel that this patch has actually been very good for the game/community so far lol. We've gotten a lot of good discussion and criticism from pros and ordinary fans alike. Alive game! Now we just need that ESL/GSL announcement. Hopefully the Balance Council knows something we don't here.
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I love the stalker change.
We should buff units that are skill/micro centric and make that buff in a way that only the very best will be able to take full advantage of it. I can see herO leveraging this change to bring back 3-Oracle-Blink opener in ZvP - the most active and engaging playstyle I've enjoyed in any era of ZvP. With the small nerf to queen cost, this might make the 3-Oracle-Blink even more effective.
Whether it is too much or too little remains to be seen. Buffing gateway units is always tricky b/c of warp-tech.
Nvm.
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On November 01 2024 05:32 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2024 05:22 Charoisaur wrote:
Doesn't seem to bad but not sure how terran is supposed to win TvZ lategame now. I don't see any changes to compensate Ghost nerf?
Zerg now definitely seems like the winner of the patch with P and T mostly nerfed They basically said, Terran players figure it out yourself. Late game TvZ will be even more turtling than before, with PF/Tank/Libs instead of Ghost. Edit: Also the Cyclone revert will impact mostly TvT opening, Cyclone will now be made as an early defensive units and thats about it.
Because the Cyclone fucking sucks. If they put it on Reactor and make it even halfway decent it dominates TvT's early game and it's a problem for Protoss in the early game since it invalidates pretty much every Stargate opening.
And if they put it on the Tech Lab it becomes a unit you ONLY make to counter early air from Terran or Protoss. They can't even put it on the Reactor and require an armory because then it comes out too late to counter Oracles, Mass Reaper and other shit we use it for.
They can't win with this unit the way it's designed. It's just a bad unit.
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Absolute Cinema, Bravo Vince
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Lots of good changes. Mothership finally can't be abducted! BL and Tempest don't become too microable which promotes camping from afar when they are supposed to be siege units and need to committ to do full damage, etc.
However, Cyclone revert AND BF revert is big. I agree Cyclones have ruined PvT build diversity. But please throw Mech some kind of bone in TvP. Mech lategame isn't that much stronger if at all than the other race's lategames, and the early game is quite weak. Hellions and a few tanks struggle to defend bio pressure early in TvT, especially with the quicker Raven and 11 second disable. And more importantly Mech struggles vs blink stalkers and mass chargelots in TvP due to LotV economy/timing changes. I would be totally fine with the Broodlings getting back more of its power, in exchange for a tiny Hellbat buff (so that it helps TvP mech), or something like that.
If Blue Flame getting 5 more damage was limiting ZvT build openers to roach, then can't you buff Hellions/Blue Flame another way? For example make Blue Flame give +2 (+3 vs Light), instead of +5 vs Light. Just something small to slightly make up for Mech struggling with mass chargelots early and bio pressure early. If Hellions are slightly less shitty vs non-Light units, that few extra damage here and there adds up without having to buff Cyclones or Tanks.
For Cyclones, the upgrade used to give +20 vs Armored, but then they said "Mech's weakness is it's too specialized" and made it just +10 vs All, making it weaker vs the things it was good at. Mech is similar to Protoss in that it's designed to have powerful specialized units, not all-rounders like Bio. It simply reduces the potential power of a good Mech comp.
At the time, it was meant to be a buff and help out Mech. But why not make it more clearly a buff such as +5 (+10 vs Armored) or +10 (+5 vs Armored)? I would argue +10 vs All was a nerf because it did that much less damage to things it was good for.
For Ghost, i still liked the idea of making it Light, since it would give more power to Colossus and make it more soft-counter the Ghost, and potentially give more use for Adept or Phoenix comps in PvT. And so you can't clump and snipe as effectively without risk vs Fungals+Banelings. And because making it Light would affect Ghosts for TvP mech less than making it 3 supply does. But it would still be too much for a 2 supply unit. Perhaps it can be 3 supply for now and also add Light tag if it's still an issue in the future.
For Liberators, I think if the cheaper 125 gas is going to be kept, then I still like the idea of trying to make Libs require Tech Lab. So it's harder to transition into mass 6 Liberator production with the same reactored Starports you use for Medivacs/Vikings. I mean it's a flying tank after all and even stronger than Tanks lategame since it flies. (It used to be 150 before Balance Council deemed Lib transitions were too expensive lol, Tempests meanwhile..) I think just making 2-3 Liberators at a time is already sufficient for your army. 2 rounds of Libs and then you'd have 4-6 Liberators which is enough to supplement your army and start zoning things out.
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Okay, since we're finally abording Supply changes for unit, time to make the real decisions and bring Queens to 3 supply.
This is how you actually make Zerg early game less of a free pass, not 25 more mineral.
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On November 01 2024 05:48 Pentarp wrote:
I love the stalker change.
We should buff units that are skill/micro centric and make that buff in a way that only the very best will be able to take full advantage of it. I can see herO leveraging this change to bring back 3-Oracle-Blink opener in ZvP - the most active and engaging playstyle I've enjoyed in any era of ZvP. With the small nerf to queen cost, this might make the 3-Oracle-Blink even more effective.
Whether it is too much or too little remains to be seen. Buffing gateway units is always tricky b/c of warp-tech.
Correct me if I'm wrong but this only buffs your stalker build time out of basic gateway, not warp gate.
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I did not expect to see the Mothership abduct change. I always found it hilariously dumb that Toss invests 400/400 just to die instantly come fight time. Toss tries to cast feedback in time but one always gets through. Not to mention the lore absurdity of a single tongue pulling a floating Protoss city. Wild to me it took this long to look at.
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I feel like these changes are definitely better, (I mean ofc) but maybe still not enough. I'll wait to see more pro games over a long time as I think this is the version that ESL will go through with but I'm not sure yet. My biggest concern is it may limit protoss builds. We saw maxpax have success vs Terran but if you need to 4 gate blink every game off 2 base and other openers like Stargate or eco variations like 2 gate blink expand fall out of meta, or even Colossus openers and u can only 4 gate blink that is BAD. the team will have to be on standby to hotfix because you can not have that be the meta for 6+ months. I'm worried about marauder all ins proxy too. These you won't see spammed too much unless in a high stakes tournament so I think it may fly under the radar but if for example Stargate openers fall out of fashion it could also get stronger as pros used to just build a voidray to hold if it's just stalkers now, and no overcharge, it may be an issue. Not saying for sure we'll have to see, but I think there are a lot of factors and way this patch could turn out bad. How about for example you make marauder Concussive Shells require a tech to research? Like starport unlocked or something. This helps with both concerns players have raised with proxy marauder rushes and also 3 rax timings without battery overcharge.
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On November 01 2024 10:34 CicadaSC wrote:
I feel like these changes are definitely better, (I mean ofc) but maybe still not enough. I'll wait to see more pro games over a long time as I think this is the version that ESL will go through with but I'm not sure yet. My biggest concern is it may limit protoss builds. We saw maxpax have success vs Terran but if you need to 4 gate blink every game off 2 base and other openers like Stargate or eco variations like 2 gate blink expand fall out of meta, or even Colossus openers and u can only 4 gate blink that is BAD. the team will have to be on standby to hotfix because you can not have that be the meta for 6+ months. I'm worried about marauder all ins proxy too. These you won't see spammed too much unless in a high stakes tournament so I think it may fly under the radar but if for example Stargate openers fall out of fashion it could also get stronger as pros used to just build a voidray to hold if it's just stalkers now, and no overcharge, it may be an issue. Not saying for sure we'll have to see, but I think there are a lot of factors and way this patch could turn out bad. How about for example you make marauder Concussive Shells require a tech to research? Like starport unlocked or something. This helps with both concerns players have raised with proxy marauder rushes and also 3 rax timings without battery overcharge.
If the cyclone change is reverted you'll be able to go oracle as well
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On November 01 2024 10:45 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2024 10:34 CicadaSC wrote:
I feel like these changes are definitely better, (I mean ofc) but maybe still not enough. I'll wait to see more pro games over a long time as I think this is the version that ESL will go through with but I'm not sure yet. My biggest concern is it may limit protoss builds. We saw maxpax have success vs Terran but if you need to 4 gate blink every game off 2 base and other openers like Stargate or eco variations like 2 gate blink expand fall out of meta, or even Colossus openers and u can only 4 gate blink that is BAD. the team will have to be on standby to hotfix because you can not have that be the meta for 6+ months. I'm worried about marauder all ins proxy too. These you won't see spammed too much unless in a high stakes tournament so I think it may fly under the radar but if for example Stargate openers fall out of fashion it could also get stronger as pros used to just build a voidray to hold if it's just stalkers now, and no overcharge, it may be an issue. Not saying for sure we'll have to see, but I think there are a lot of factors and way this patch could turn out bad. How about for example you make marauder Concussive Shells require a tech to research? Like starport unlocked or something. This helps with both concerns players have raised with proxy marauder rushes and also 3 rax timings without battery overcharge. If the cyclone change is reverted you'll be able to go oracle as well
It isn't cyclones countering oracle I am concerned with, it being you having less resources for a ground fighting army. So let's say you go oracle into blink 3 base, I could see this being weak to Terran 3 rax timings for example without overcharge. It was already a tight hold and many seen it as a "counter build".
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On November 01 2024 10:54 CicadaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2024 10:45 Nebuchad wrote:On November 01 2024 10:34 CicadaSC wrote:
I feel like these changes are definitely better, (I mean ofc) but maybe still not enough. I'll wait to see more pro games over a long time as I think this is the version that ESL will go through with but I'm not sure yet. My biggest concern is it may limit protoss builds. We saw maxpax have success vs Terran but if you need to 4 gate blink every game off 2 base and other openers like Stargate or eco variations like 2 gate blink expand fall out of meta, or even Colossus openers and u can only 4 gate blink that is BAD. the team will have to be on standby to hotfix because you can not have that be the meta for 6+ months. I'm worried about marauder all ins proxy too. These you won't see spammed too much unless in a high stakes tournament so I think it may fly under the radar but if for example Stargate openers fall out of fashion it could also get stronger as pros used to just build a voidray to hold if it's just stalkers now, and no overcharge, it may be an issue. Not saying for sure we'll have to see, but I think there are a lot of factors and way this patch could turn out bad. How about for example you make marauder Concussive Shells require a tech to research? Like starport unlocked or something. This helps with both concerns players have raised with proxy marauder rushes and also 3 rax timings without battery overcharge. If the cyclone change is reverted you'll be able to go oracle as well It isn't cyclones countering oracle I am concerned with, it being you having less resources for a ground fighting army. So let's say you go oracle into blink 3 base, I could see this being weak to Terran 3 rax timings for example without overcharge. It was already a tight hold and many seen it as a "counter build".
Maybe, yeah, hard to say right now. Your oracles are also much better than they used to be I feel like there's at least room to play, you can really spam stasis.
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Screw the +10 vs All Mag-Field, bring back +20 vs Armored 
This would also allow for Oracle/Phoenix openers to be even less weak vs Cyclones. Cyclones already did fine vs Stargate openers BEFORE +20 vs Armored mag field got changed to +10 vs all. We had already been seeing players like Maru occasionally open Marine/Cyclone/Viking vs Stargate and then transition into full-on Mech.
We already have Hellions/WMs/Hellbats for small units and Light units.
If they were to ask Mech players, the large majority prefer the +20 vs Armor upgrade. It was the balance council who thought that rounding out the Cyclone was what Mech players needed.
The +10 vs All Mag-field was also weaker at defending early Roach/Ravager all-ins, which Mech openers are susceptible to in TvZ. It was also weaker at dealing with Void ray proxy cheese and Tempest proxy cheese, and now proxy Batteries will be harder to kill too...
Note: Ofc my ideal proposal is +5 (+10 vs Armored) or +10 (+5 vs Armored), for a true buff.
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EPT
