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Intelligence13
Canada19 Posts
https://sc2pulse.nephest.com/sc2/?season=60&queue=LOTV_1V1&team-type=ARRANGED&us=true&eu=true&kr=true&cn=true&bro=true&sil=true&gol=true&pla=true&dia=true&mas=true&gra=true&page=0&type=ladder&ratingAnchor=99999&idAnchor=0&count=1#stats-global Ps. 5.0.3 is almost the same as the patches before it 4.11.0 - 5.0.3:  Patch 5.0.3 | ||
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RandomPlayer
Russian Federation400 Posts
On November 01 2024 07:27 Noocta wrote: Okay, since we're finally abording Supply changes for unit, time to make the real decisions and bring Queens to 3 supply. This is how you actually make Zerg early game less of a free pass, not 25 more mineral. I'm fully onboard with the idea of making the queens 3 supply. Some counter nerfs need to done to zerg so it won't get out of control. | ||
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thorn969
5 Posts
I look at it and it looks to me like it is nerfing all three races. I think part of what makes patches fun is new powers, but if everyone is weakened, everyone feels bad. I like making Ghosts slightly less mass-able by increasing supply, but it doesn't really change any ghost interactions and so I would like to see Zerg have a more viable lategame response to Ghosts (like Brood Lord changes, even if it is just the bug fix with no buffs). I like the idea of Terran having a more viable midgame unit - I think the blue-flame change seemed aimed at that. Maybe revert the Void Ray move speed nerf? Or give back a reduced battery overcharge? Protoss are getting a big new toy in the Energy Overcharge, but because they are losing Battery Overcharge, it feels like a nerf overall. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10381 Posts
On November 01 2024 12:00 Intelligence13 wrote: To Be Honest, StarCraft 2's 5.0.3 patch way back in 2020 June to September season was the most popular. StarCraft 2 had the most number of games played then per season ever in its life span. What ever happened after that brought it to dwindling fall and to what ever it is today. See for your self: https://sc2pulse.nephest.com/sc2/?season=60&queue=LOTV_1V1&team-type=ARRANGED&us=true&eu=true&kr=true&cn=true&bro=true&sil=true&gol=true&pla=true&dia=true&mas=true&gra=true&page=0&type=ladder&ratingAnchor=99999&idAnchor=0&count=1#stats-global Ps. 5.0.3 is almost the same as the patches before it 4.11.0 - 5.0.3: https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Patch_5.0.3 This can easily be attributed to the COVID pandemic leading to people being able to work from home (or be unemployed at home), and having much more time to play and watch SC2. Viewership also rose during this time, and towards the end of the pandemic has decreased back to roughly where it was before. Many people during COVID came back to check on SC2 and give it a try. But, you might also be right about something. The game was surely more stable and balanced in a more professional manner than the Balance Council's patches. | ||
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Draddition
United States59 Posts
On November 01 2024 14:59 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: This can easily be attributed to the COVID pandemic leading to people being able to work from home (or be unemployed at home), and having much more time to play and watch SC2. Viewership also rose during this time, and towards the end of the pandemic has decreased back to roughly where it was before. Many people during COVID came back to check on SC2 and give it a try. But, you might also be right about something. The game was surely more stable and balanced in a more professional manner than the Balance Council's patches. You guys realize this was also the void ray meta? We aren't seriously suggesting going back to that, are we? Pre 5.0.2 I could at least see an argument, but we can't forget the first balance council patch got us away from that nonsense of a meta. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10381 Posts
On November 01 2024 15:18 Draddition wrote: You guys realize this was also the void ray meta? We aren't seriously suggesting going back to that, are we? Pre 5.0.2 I could at least see an argument, but we can't forget the first balance council patch got us away from that nonsense of a meta. Actually, that was the last balance patch the Blizz team gave us before the Balance Council. The first patch Balance Council gave us was the gutting of Protoss by nerfing Battery Overcharge AND making Ravens quicker and cheaper while keeping Matrix duration at 11 secs, making early Raven pushes stronger than ever and leading to PvT to plummet to ~40% winrate at the pro level, the worst winrate for any MU in the history of SC2 (when looking at a period of a few months). | ||
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MJG
United Kingdom1451 Posts
Still a terrible patch. Better than the first proposal, but still terrible. Maybe that was the plan all along. To propose an obviously terrible patch so that the bad-but-not-terrible patch can go through. I'll get my tinfoil hat. | ||
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MJG
United Kingdom1451 Posts
I would trim the patch down significantly in the following manner: Protoss Tempest - Tempests are useful for breaking turtling opponents by forcing them out of their shell, so a buff here is a step towards the Balance Council's stated goals. The change to their air-attack range is a good counter-balance because it won't impact the Tempest's usefulness against turtling opponents, because turtling players tend to rely on ground units (Tanks, Lurkers) and static defence instead of air units. Disruptor - I don't think this fits in with their goal of preventing turtling, but it does fit with a previously stated goal of reducing the number of frustrating game-ending events that can happen in an instant. Disruptors are very frustrating to play against at lower-levels for this very reason, but they're nothing more than zoning tools at higher levels. These changes will make the Disruptor less frustrating to play against at lower-levels, but they will make the Disruptor a better zoning tool at higher levels, which I think is a sensible way to buff high-level Protoss without making Disruptors oppressively strong at lower-levels. I'd also consider removing the additional Shield damage as well, because I don't think that PvP needs Disruptors to be so good at blowing up Stalkers, but I also hate Disruptors as a general rule so I'm not the best person to ask about them! Mothership - The Abduct change is sorely needed to give the Mothership a vibe of dominance on the battlefield, especially if it's going to cost as much as it will after these changes. This change will allow the Mothership to be used more aggressively, instead of having to hide in the backlines, and that definitely discourages turtling. The supply and cost nerfs are definitely needed to counter-balance the Abduct change. I don't think the auto-attack changes will matter in high-level games because who really wants the Mothership to be auto-attacking? But the auto-attack changes do add some necessary "coolness" to the unit for lower-level play. Terran Cyclone - I don't like the current Cyclone, and I don't think changing it back achieves anything to do with the stated goals of the patch. But changing it back would allow more build order diversity in PvT, which is probably a good thing, so I wouldn't be upset if this change did go through. Salvage - I don't personally think this will make much difference, but I can at least see how it aligns with the idea of discouraging turtling. Planetary Fortress - I think that this may be a step too far when combined with the Ghost nerf. It is the Ghost that anchors Terrans turtling in the late-game, not the Planetary Fortress. Sensor Tower - Again, I don't personally think this will make much difference, but I can at least see how it aligns with the idea of discouraging turtling. Ghost - Something needs to be done about the Ghost to discourage Terrans turtling in the late-game. At the same time, I don't see what else Terran is supposed to do against a late-game Zerg other than turtle, so I don't know if this change will actually achieve anything other than making Terran weaker against late-game Zerg. Discouraging turtling is great if there is an alternative, but I don't see where that alternative is. A buff to something else that Terran has is required to make this nerf useful, but what can you buff for TvZ that won't also impact TvP? Thor - Sure. Whatever. Nobody cares about Thors. Zerg Queen - A nerf that has been needed for a long time. I'd personally go further, but this is a start. Ultralisk (Speed Nerf) - I feel this might be needed to you're going to encourage Terrans to move out once Ultralisks are on the field. Lurker - The health change is a necessary counter-balance to the Disruptor changes. The sight change is a necessary buff to fix a bug. Both of these changes are fine. EDIT: Please can the OP be updated to include the Lurker changes in the "full updated changelog" so that they're visible to everyone despite the Balance Council's inability to write their own patch notes properly? | ||
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Vision_
876 Posts
On November 01 2024 06:48 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: For Ghost, i still liked the idea of making it Light, since it would give more power to Colossus and make it more soft-counter the Ghost, and potentially give more use for Adept or Phoenix comps in PvT. And so you can't clump and snipe as effectively without risk vs Fungals+Banelings. And because making it Light would affect Ghosts for TvP mech less than making it 3 supply does. But it would still be too much for a 2 supply unit. Perhaps it can be 3 supply for now and also add Light tag if it's still an issue in the future. I think ghost endurance against banelings is one of the key point for GM to hold on again so many banelings. Zerg player will try to detect and trap ghost which are running, zerg player must pay a higher cost for clean this heavy gas cost unit (compared to marines) | ||
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Vision_
876 Posts
On November 01 2024 14:57 thorn969 wrote: I think this patch is worse than the previous proposal. I look at it and it looks to me like it is nerfing all three races. I think part of what makes patches fun is new powers, but if everyone is weakened, everyone feels bad. I like making Ghosts slightly less mass-able by increasing supply, but it doesn't really change any ghost interactions and so I would like to see Zerg have a more viable lategame response to Ghosts (like Brood Lord changes, even if it is just the bug fix with no buffs). I like the idea of Terran having a more viable midgame unit - I think the blue-flame change seemed aimed at that. Maybe revert the Void Ray move speed nerf? Or give back a reduced battery overcharge? Protoss are getting a big new toy in the Energy Overcharge, but because they are losing Battery Overcharge, it feels like a nerf overall. Change the supply cost of ghost unit is a good answer because Terran players considered ghost as a basic unit (that s not the case due to his gas cost prize) On November 01 2024 14:38 RandomPlayer wrote: I'm fully onboard with the idea of making the queens 3 supply. Some counter nerfs need to done to zerg so it won't get out of control. I think it would be a too drastic change. Queen is not a magic unit entirely, it s more a support unit. 3 unit supply is a strong nerf, and i will take a look today at wardi tv but let s be honest i won t be surprised to see less wins for Terran. Of course Queen is more active in early mid game unit but it s an important unit in the zerg mecanics so it will affect the overall start and a lot of build orders. I think it could be fix in creating a morph to the queen for some gas cost in order to allow her a faster developpement of the mucus. Actually, the mineral cost tweak is a little bit awkward. It s easy to understand that part of a queen is rigged by injection (only minerals cost) and another part, tumors and mucus spread require control by a gas cost limit So let s argue this because it s good sense, and we have to promote the dev team in their patch because overall they are doing well. PS: you could make a difference between queens in looking at their tumors, a morphed queen would have tumors which extend creep faster (equal to the actual speed). The idea of this change is to prioritize functions of the queen (it s not about split the queen in two unit even if it looks like) | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10381 Posts
On November 01 2024 18:48 Vision_ wrote: I think ghost endurance against banelings is one of the key point for GM to hold on again so many banelings. Zerg player will try to detect and trap ghost which are running, zerg player must pay a higher cost for clean this heavy gas cost unit (compared to marines) Hmm that's a good point, ~10 banelings to clear even 5 somewhat clumped up ghosts is very worth it. It doesn't look right but math wise, banelings are still an efficient way to kill Ghosts if you can close the distance. The only thing though is that the HT has 40 HP 40 Shield and dies to 3 baneling hits. This makes me wonder if the HT can have its Light tag removed. This wouldn't effect much but just a thought. | ||
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Vision_
876 Posts
On November 01 2024 19:27 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Hmm that's a good point, ~10 banelings to clear even 5 somewhat clumped up ghosts is very worth it. It doesn't look right but math wise, banelings are still an efficient way to kill Ghosts if you can close the distance. The only thing though is that the HT has 40 HP 40 Shield and dies to 3 baneling hits. This makes me wonder if the HT can have its Light tag removed. This wouldn't effect much but just a thought. I don t know to me the key unit of protoss is the stalker. | ||
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Creager
Germany1961 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2465 Posts
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Creager
Germany1961 Posts
On November 01 2024 21:16 swarminfestor wrote: My suggestion to get mothership's abduct ability abolished is set to be materialized. What does it mean by "Brood Lord changes removed"? It means that these changes, which were stated in the previous balance update were stashed: Brood Lord Broodling HP is increased from 20 to 30. Broodling Weapon Cooldown decreased from 0.57 to 0.46. Fixed the bug which prevented Brood Lord from dealing full damage while shooting from the maximum distance. Developer Comment: Brood Lord seemed to lose too much power in head to head fights after the previous set of changes - the broodling changes are now reverted which, combined with the bug fix, should help the unit to perform better in various lategame scenarios. | ||
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Pentarp
227 Posts
On November 01 2024 08:15 CicadaSC wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but this only buffs your stalker build time out of basic gateway, not warp gate. Oh thats super niche then.. | ||
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Drahkn
199 Posts
It would be nice if proxy stalker rush could be a threat so zergs and terrans are forced to play more honest and cant get away with greed , they are way to comfortable in the early game, but who am I joking if Protoss gets 1 scary early game build it will probably get nerfed within a month or two. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19379 Posts
To clarify the stalker change, is it just affecting the gateway build time, but not warp gate build time? | ||
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tigera6
3513 Posts
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Draddition
United States59 Posts
On November 01 2024 15:52 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Actually, that was the last balance patch the Blizz team gave us before the Balance Council. The first patch Balance Council gave us was the gutting of Protoss by nerfing Battery Overcharge AND making Ravens quicker and cheaper while keeping Matrix duration at 11 secs, making early Raven pushes stronger than ever and leading to PvT to plummet to ~40% winrate at the pro level, the worst winrate for any MU in the history of SC2 (when looking at a period of a few months). I think it's really important we get this correct- because what Blizzard did was unforgivable. The last official blizzard made patch was 5.0.2 ( Patch 5.0.2) which included a 4 way buff to the void ray. Then Blizzard just walked away. The next balance patch was 5.0.9 (https://news.blizzard.com/en-us/starcraft2/23774006/starcraft-ii-5-0-9-ptr-patch-notes) put together by the community. Unclear looking back at it if this was the balance council in full effect, or more of a beta balance council. This nerfed the void ray, blink DTs, queen walks, and both fast burrow upgrades. This was a pretty good patch. | ||
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