EPTThe old colossus wouldn't even be OP because of how much more powerful lotv corruptors and vikings have become, here I agree.
5.0.14 Balance PTR: Updates - (October 31st, 2024) - Page 5
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ejozl
Denmark3502 Posts
The old colossus wouldn't even be OP because of how much more powerful lotv corruptors and vikings have become, here I agree. | ||
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ShroudCyber
5 Posts
This 25 damage wouldn’t directly kill any combat units, but 100+25 damage is just enough to kill Marauder and Ravager. This means that Terran and Zerg wouldn’t have to worry about suddenly being hit by Purification Nova and suffering heavy losses, nor would they have to avoid every Purification Nova, as Marauder and Ravager can survive one Purification Nova damage. However, this also means that if hit by one Purification Nova, they must be particularly cautious of a second hit. There wouldn’t be required two full damage Purification Nova to kill Marauder and Ravager, as one Purification Nova plus the secondary 25 damage would already cause significant losses. Terran and Zerg players would need to evaluate their current status to determine if they can afford the cost of being hit by a Purification Nova, choosing between avoiding the Purification Nova or continuing the fight. This adds more depth compared to simply avoiding the Purification Nova. Interestingly, mathematical calculations show that 145 × 1.375^2 × π ≈ 100 × 1.5^2 × π + 25 × (2^2 - 1.5^2) × π. The former is slightly higher than the latter, so this is still nerf for Purification Nova. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10372 Posts
(Corruptor and Vikings have been buffed and there's Vipers, and Matrix has been buffed indirectly with quicker/cheaper Ravens, and with no Battery Overcharge it'll be harder to open with them) I especially feel this because the Disruptor is still in a nerfed state compared to when it was 3 supply and did more damage and had 1.5 radius. Some of that AOE/zoning power should be going somewhere, like the Colossus. It's fine if they don't want to revert Disruptor to 3 supply cus they still want to keep Disruptors as more of a support unit than a massable unit, but then give some more stable damage to Colossus. If not damage, then you could just give Colossus +50 HP, instead of swapping 50 Shield to HP. Vikings have more HP and are more microable, and corruptors move much faster than back then. Matrix is a thing now and disables them easier than back then. Colossus feel like big glass cannons that aren't that strong and could maybe just use a straight up 50 HP buff. Like they're strong when there's still low tech armies with lots of T1 light units, but they lose a lot of value once that's not the case anymore. This could make up for no more Battery Overcharge too. Another weird thing about swapping 50 Shield to 50 HP for Colossus: This change helps lategame more so than early game, where T may not have enough EMPs to double EMP your Colossus or just doesn't want to use that much energy to remove that last 50 Shield. Earlier on when T doesn't have enough to double EMP, this may be a slight nerf in early game situations because you more easily take hull damage, and trying to poke at tank pushes with your Colossus and heal its Shields up will be weaker. So that's why I feel they should maybe just give it raw +50 HP buff. Then it strictly buffs earlier game where there is no more Battery Overcharge to help Colossus vs early pushes, as well as later game you'll have that extra 50 HP vs mass EMPs. | ||
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jodljodl
182 Posts
 Let's test it and see how it pans out. It is not always easy to revise a proposal. Great that the council did so and I applaud them for it. Thank you | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3502 Posts
It's still better than what the council gave us, which is just anti protoss bias. It could be that the intern gave power to theese nerds because they responded toxically to this patch. Then they got power and they removed the chance to be a pro gamer for protoss players. HerO went 2-6 vs. serral and 3-0 vs. reynor. HerO is the pvz specialist and literally revolutionized the game, meanwhile reynor is dogshit vs. protoss (pig's words). This matchup needs brains, and reynor clearly has a mental block vs. toss, and likes to play LoL and off race while herO is actually giving sc2 his all. | ||
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Archeon
3266 Posts
On November 06 2024 12:55 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Yeah I feel Colossus is overdue for a small buff. It's the unit that you can buff without being worried about Protoss deathball becoming too strong like in WoL/HotS, and Colossus isn't a unit you want to mass like getting 8 of. (Corruptor and Vikings have been buffed and there's Vipers, and Matrix has been buffed indirectly with quicker/cheaper Ravens, and with no Battery Overcharge it'll be harder to open with them) I especially feel this because the Disruptor is still in a nerfed state compared to when it was 3 supply and did more damage and had 1.5 radius. Some of that AOE/zoning power should be going somewhere, like the Colossus. It's fine if they don't want to revert Disruptor to 3 supply cus they still want to keep Disruptors as more of a support unit than a massable unit, but then give some more stable damage to Colossus. If not damage, then you could just give Colossus +50 HP, instead of swapping 50 Shield to HP. Vikings have more HP and are more microable, and corruptors move much faster than back then. Matrix is a thing now and disables them easier than back then. Colossus feel like big glass cannons that aren't that strong and could maybe just use a straight up 50 HP buff. Like they're strong when there's still low tech armies with lots of T1 light units, but they lose a lot of value once that's not the case anymore. This could make up for no more Battery Overcharge too. Another weird thing about swapping 50 Shield to 50 HP for Colossus: This change helps lategame more so than early game, where T may not have enough EMPs to double EMP your Colossus or just doesn't want to use that much energy to remove that last 50 Shield. Earlier on when T doesn't have enough to double EMP, this may be a slight nerf in early game situations because you more easily take hull damage, and trying to poke at tank pushes with your Colossus and heal its Shields up will be weaker. So that's why I feel they should maybe just give it raw +50 HP buff. Then it strictly buffs earlier game where there is no more Battery Overcharge to help Colossus vs early pushes, as well as later game you'll have that extra 50 HP vs mass EMPs. Tbh when I see Ps win PvT it's almost always on the back of colossi midgame timings (or blink stalker attacks tbf). They're heavily disfavored once libs+ghosts come out, they are quite weak to tank pushes until colossi come out, but the time between 2 colossi and a Ts getting enough vikings to deal with them is usually where P can often deal significant damage if they didn't get crippled earlier. Tbh I'd buff P's AA. P's problem is that almost all of their reasonable answers to libs/lurkers get countered by AA and they have no reliable way to deal with air AA. P has by far the slowest production speed of air units and their ground to air is either a huge gas sink (high temps+archons) or kinda shit (stalkers), so whenever they get tempests, colossi or carriers the opposing side shits out a bunch of corruptors or vikings or just 2-3 vipers and trade them against the protoss high tech because stalkers don't cut it and the rest is extremely immobile (and expensive). And then it's ground vs ground again and P just looses that lategame. I honestly think phoenixes should actually trade efficiently with vikings considering that the latter have tons of more range and T has way better ground to air anyways and libs do aoe and emps wreck phoenixes. I'd prolly add some damage to Phoenix range and a post-blink update for stalkers to twilight that gives them +4 damage vs air or something similar so early game isn't affected much. Or make the void ray actually useful AA, idk. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10372 Posts
On November 11 2024 09:15 Archeon wrote: Tbh when I see Ps win PvT it's almost always on the back of colossi midgame timings (or blink stalker attacks tbf). They're heavily disfavored once libs+ghosts come out, they are quite weak to tank pushes until colossi come out, but the time between 2 colossi and a Ts getting enough vikings to deal with them is usually where P can often deal significant damage if they didn't get crippled earlier. Tbh I'd buff P's AA. P's problem is that almost all of their reasonable answers to libs/lurkers get countered by AA and they have no reliable way to deal with air AA. P has by far the slowest production speed of air units and their ground to air is either a huge gas sink (high temps+archons) or kinda shit (stalkers), so whenever they get tempests, colossi or carriers the opposing side shits out a bunch of corruptors or vikings or just 2-3 vipers and trade them against the protoss high tech because stalkers don't cut it and the rest is extremely immobile (and expensive). And then it's ground vs ground again and P just looses that lategame. I honestly think phoenixes should actually trade efficiently with vikings considering that the latter have tons of more range and T has way better ground to air anyways and libs do aoe and emps wreck phoenixes. I'd prolly add some damage to Phoenix range and a post-blink update for stalkers to twilight that gives them +4 damage vs air or something similar so early game isn't affected much. Or make the void ray actually useful AA, idk. Yeah it's a tough one for sure. Viking gaining 10 HP really made it less close vs Phoenixes. Maybe Phoenix damage can be slightly reworked, like swap 1 damage to Light to All. Then it'd do slightly better vs Vikings, and could be a bit more of an all-rounder, doing slightly better vs Corruptors, Liberators, and even capital ships. It could be interesting because then Phoenixes can do slightly more damage to ground units too like Queens or Tanks. But maybe that'd make Phoenix wars just more prevalent in PvP. I think tweaking the supply of some air units could be a way too, they're a bit weird right now: 1) Tempests should ideally be 5 supply instead of 4. I agree with making Disruptors 4 supply so they have more of a support role than something you mass. Making Tempest 4 supply instead of 5 is a good bandaid fix to give lategame P a little more power, since Tempests are so weak in a straight up fight against Corruptors for example. And I think having support Tempests (a non-splash zoning unit) as a more common answer to Libs and Lurkers can be fun to watch too. However, my main issues with this is that identity wise it's supposed to be a capital ship, and secondly this means that you can have way more Tempests vs BCs now. Before, Mass BC used to wreck P lategame, but they buffed Tempest microability and manueverability so that warping ontop gives Tempest enough time to move away and be pretty OK and not rely on MS recall to escape. Now you can get 30 Tempests vs 20 BCs (25% more), which i think skews things a little much in Protoss's favor maybe. Even warping ontop will not be enough to get a decent trade now. If they keep Tempests at 4 supply, maybe just slightly nerf their damage vs Massive from +22 to +18 or something, so it takes 9 shots instead of 8 shots to kill a BC (48 total vs Massive instead of 52). That way in lategame maxed armies they still do slightly better vs Corruptors/Vikings supply wise and can be easier to get vs Libs/Lurkers, and not so much better vs BCs/Carriers/BLs. 2) Voids are a bit supply inefficient, but interestingly their Shield/HP/damage vs armored is basically the same as the Immortal (other than needing to turn on the beam). So, i see why it is 4 supply, but maybe 3 supply can be justified since the beam needs to be turned on, and Immortals have more potency in that they have burst shots whereas Void has to shoot steadily to do its damage. Protoss identity wise their stuff naturally has more supply, but a Void ray really doesn't feel like it has more power or value than a 3 supply Liberator, or a Disruptor or Immortal even. So, if Tempests would revert to 5 supply, maybe the Void can be buffed to 3 supply instead. That way you can mix in a few easier to help deal with mass Corruptors, and maybe rarely as an option vs Vikings/Libs/Lurkers. I can't think of much other ways they can make Protoss slightly more supply efficient. It's either the Disruptor, Void, or Tempest. I'm leaning on the Void, it used to have 3 supply in WoL/HotS, so it wouldn't be too weird to go back. It isn't strong when massed. The only worry I have is that, even though being able to get 2 Corruptors for every Void mostly negates the Void being a "counter", when you're talking about a maxed out army then having just 5 Voids mixed in is enough to negate much of the Corruptor's ability to just roll over your Tempests/Carriers which is all you really need. And making it 3 supply making Zerg struggle even more in the lategame. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3502 Posts
I think the phoenix vs. viking war is actually not that bad. In wol, hots days t would always be up a base and now it is the opposite, so I actually think the phoenix is pretty strong. It's all the other terran units, such as widow mines and crew that makes it hard for phoenix to poke. The void ray cannot be an issue at 3 supply, storm, fungal, queens, parasitic bomb and terran all hard counter void rays. | ||
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