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On December 22 2009 04:13 ]343[ wrote:sigh it would've been better to announce punishments pre-TSL to deter these people
Anyone with a brain should have seen this coming. Cheating isn't acceptable. One year and any thought of TSL3 is the bare minimum.
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On December 22 2009 01:27 RaGe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2009 01:11 Tazan_0 wrote: Okay, normally I just lurk around here, never post much, but this thread is some of the most rage inciting garbage i've ever read. These players have put time into improving this website, and have contributed to the improvement of so many players here. I don't know about you, but watching scan stream has been one of the things that has most improved my play. If they played 3-4 games unfairly then fine, disqualify them from the TSL, but to ban their accounts from tl is to remove all contributions they provide to this website. I do not believe this is well thought out. In all the abuse threads, the only people I've seen complain about punishments were the people that were actually friends with/fan of the players that got kicked. Never (I might have missed a few posts though) did I see a neutral person condemning our anti-abuse actions. I think you should take some time to criticize yourself and see if you're really being objective here. edit: And like mentioned before, they won't be banned from TL. Scan (skryoo) has been removed as a featured streamer though.
Another lurker here, and I have to wonder about the decision made here. The punishments outlined here are incredibly more severe than punishments for comparable (or worse) offenses in other sports. Take the steroid scandals in American professional baseball, for example--the punishment is generally suspension for about half a season, which is like two or three months if you take the Starcraft equivalent? Something like that.
And the way I see it, using performance enhancing drugs is a much worse offense than ladder abuse, primarily because of the different effects. If a person conspires with another to get a couple free wins, it doesn't give him an inherent advantage over other players. Obviously it's an awful thing to do, since cheating in this way to qualify prevents another person from qualifying legitimately. But imagine, if this person cheats to get into the top48, and then wins the TSL, he has still proven himself to be the most skilled player in the tournament (as long as you trust the tournament structure to find the best player out of all entrants). Ladder abuse does not provide an inherent advantage over opponents in-game, and so a person who wins the TSL even while abusing would still "deserve" it in the sense that they were the best player in the tournament. Meanwhile, consider steroids, which artificially improve a player's ability and provide an inherent advantage against other players. If a person taking steroids wins a sport tournament or breaks a record, then it was not his skill that did it--it was the artificial improvement from his drugs.
That's not to say I think cheating should go unpunished, however. Disqualification from the TSL and a ban from official events for six months seems reasonable to me. But an effective ban from the biggest foreign event for two or three years seems unnecessarily harsh, especially for those players who have proven themselves valuable members of the community (I don't know if any have, but the fact that I recognize several of those names when I don't follow Starcraft all that seriously suggests to me that at least a couple are valuable community members). When you compare the reaction to abuse here to the reaction to greater abuse in a bigger sport (e.g., baseball), the community here seems to revile cheating at a level much higher than the other sport's fans. Honestly it's puzzling to me, I was genuinely shocked at how immediately the community unanimously decided that everyone who abused the TSL ladder (even for just three wins) was absolute trash and the scum of the earth.
I don't mean to be confrontational here, I'm just having a difficult time believing that these decisions are reasonable. Maybe it's because I'm really not that involved in Starcraft, I just follow both the professional and foreign scenes casually. I won't complain about the punishments; I was just surprised at their severity. Granted I was also surprised that about a quarter of the tournament candidates cheated in some way, but that begs the question of "Why was cheating so tempting that 25% of the top players on the ladder would resort to it?" When you've got that many people deciding that cheating is the best option for them, I can't help but wonder if an outside force pressured some of the players into doing things they wouldn't do otherwise. As to what that outside force is, beats me. I'm just throwing out considerations.
But anyway, this post has gone on too long. I just wanted to chime in from the point of view of a neutral person who does disagree with the punishment decisions. I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that a significant number of people feel the same way I do, but just don't say anything because there's nothing to be gained from it. Those who are especially angered by abuse would be more likely to post about it, I think, than those of us who just find it a disappointment. Regardless, I'm glad to see that something was done, even if I disagree with the severity of the action taken. If the TSL, and Starcraft in general, are to be made "legitimate" in the eyes of society as a whole, then cheating does need to be strictly monitored and dealt with. Thanks for putting on the tournament, and I'm really looking forward to it.
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"...will be banned for a minimum of 12 months and the next two TSLs."
More TSLs to come <3
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On December 22 2009 04:33 Cobalt wrote: Another lurker here, and I have to wonder about the decision made here. The punishments outlined here are incredibly more severe than punishments for comparable (or worse) offenses in other sports. Take the steroid scandals in American professional baseball, for example--the punishment is generally suspension for about half a season, which is like two or three months if you take the Starcraft equivalent? Something like that.
. . .
What if one of the 5, 10 or even more people who didn't qualify because of the abusers who qualified in front of them, would have won the entire competition? They didn't qualify because of time constraints and their unwillingness to cheat so they never ended up with a chance to prove themselves because of the other abusers.
Wouldn't you call that unfair? Also, don't forget there are money prizes for more than first place ... if you have 5 or 10 people not qualifying because of the abuse of other players then chances are at least one of them would have earned a cash prize if they had qualified.
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Pfft, Yosh is so good, he made it look like he was abusing even though he was playing A-B level players...
I am kidding, of course.
But really surprising that the good players 'abused' (By abused, does it mean they played lower ranked players or such things as their friends gave them free wins?)... This may have been said before but was abusing really necessary for those players like F91, Advokate, and Yosh?
WHATEVER!!!
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WHAT HAPPENED i saw scan playin his games why is he banned?
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CA10824 Posts
On December 22 2009 04:39 SynC[gm] wrote: Pfft, Yosh is so good, he made it look like he was abusing even though he was playing A-B level players...
I am kidding, of course.
But really surprising that the good players 'abused' (By abused, does it mean they played lower ranked players or such things as their friends gave them free wins?)... This may have been said before but was abusing really necessary for those players like F91, Advokate, and Yosh?
WHATEVER!!! read the disqualification threads for how they abused, found in the TSL forum on the right-hand side tabs.
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i expected a harsher penalty.. common just banning from the next league and stuff? I say they should be banned FO LIFE.
jk... but something else should be done.
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Oh yea, btw, since the ladder happened in ICCup and if they abused the TSL ladder, then by doing so they abused the ICCup ladder as well. So did they just get penalized from TL, GosuGamers, AND ICCup?
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Nice work, TL. It's good to see abusers get it up the butt, but what do you mean by abusing anyway? Like combat-ex playing D players? (Sorry to bring that up again, but it's the only example I can think of).
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On December 22 2009 04:38 Chillz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2009 04:33 Cobalt wrote: Another lurker here, and I have to wonder about the decision made here. The punishments outlined here are incredibly more severe than punishments for comparable (or worse) offenses in other sports. Take the steroid scandals in American professional baseball, for example--the punishment is generally suspension for about half a season, which is like two or three months if you take the Starcraft equivalent? Something like that.
. . .
What if one of the 5, 10 or even more people who didn't qualify because of the abusers who qualified in front of them, would have won the entire competition? They didn't qualify because of time constraints and their unwillingness to cheat so they never ended up with a chance to prove themselves because of the other abusers. Wouldn't you call that unfair? Also, don't forget there are money prizes for more than first place ... if you have 5 or 10 people not qualifying because of the abuse of other players then chances are at least one of them would have earned a cash prize if they had qualified.
This is the entire reason cheating is bad in the first place. If cheating is allowed, you can't guarantee that the person who won the competition would have beaten those whom his cheating allowed him to qualify over. This is less of an issue that it would seem, in my opinion, since someone who just barely qualifies (and thus would be knocked out by a cheater) is extremely unlikely to place high enough to win money, but it is an issue. Like I said, ladder abuse is definitely a form of cheating for which punishment is necessary, since it does have a tangible, negative effect on other players. It's just odd to me that a form of cheating which I find to be much more heinous (providing an inherent in-game advantage over other players, e.g., steroids) has a MUCH lighter punishment in a comparable environment.
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Granted I was also surprised that about a quarter of the tournament candidates cheated in some way, but that begs the question of "Why was cheating so tempting that 25% of the top players on the ladder would resort to it?" When you've got that many people deciding that cheating is the best option for them, I can't help but wonder if an outside force pressured some of the players into doing things they wouldn't do otherwise. As to what that outside force is, beats me. I'm just throwing out considerations.
The reason so many people cheat is because the community and tournament managers rarely do anything about it, or if they do it's just a slap on the wrist. In other words, the reward>>>>>risk for cheating.
By making such severe punishments, the TSL obviously hopes to change players minds to see risk>>>>>reward instead. This should reduce the numbers of cheaters in future events, which is best for everyone all around.
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I was expecting some new mechanism to punish cheaters well into future games (SC2). No offense to TL, but the only event worthwhile to the people punished was TSL, and no one knows when the next TSL will take place -- if ever. I doubt Yosh cares if he's banned from TL Attack or TL arena. Liquidibition had money involved, but those events have stopped too.
In essence the cheaters were punished with removal from TSL2. That's great and severe, but we knew that a couple of weeks ago. I was expecting something harsher, but in practice, I don't think this will change much.
Edit: I understand TL could host SC2 events. That future is very hard to predict though, and to base punishment around the possibility of TL being a force big enough in SC2 where being banned from its events could hurt is a large leap.
TL is primarily a community driven site. The reason it hosts tournaments and events for SC is because there are no big sponsors / corporations willing to do so for the foreigner community. I don't think that will be the case for SC2.
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On December 22 2009 04:33 Cobalt wrote:+ Show Spoiler + Another lurker here, and I have to wonder about the decision made here. The punishments outlined here are incredibly more severe than punishments for comparable (or worse) offenses in other sports. Take the steroid scandals in American professional baseball, for example--the punishment is generally suspension for about half a season, which is like two or three months if you take the Starcraft equivalent? Something like that.
And the way I see it, using performance enhancing drugs is a much worse offense than ladder abuse, primarily because of the different effects. If a person conspires with another to get a couple free wins, it doesn't give him an inherent advantage over other players. Obviously it's an awful thing to do, since cheating in this way to qualify prevents another person from qualifying legitimately. But imagine, if this person cheats to get into the top48, and then wins the TSL, he has still proven himself to be the most skilled player in the tournament (as long as you trust the tournament structure to find the best player out of all entrants). Ladder abuse does not provide an inherent advantage over opponents in-game, and so a person who wins the TSL even while abusing would still "deserve" it in the sense that they were the best player in the tournament. Meanwhile, consider steroids, which artificially improve a player's ability and provide an inherent advantage against other players. If a person taking steroids wins a sport tournament or breaks a record, then it was not his skill that did it--it was the artificial improvement from his drugs.
That's not to say I think cheating should go unpunished, however. Disqualification from the TSL and a ban from official events for six months seems reasonable to me. But an effective ban from the biggest foreign event for two or three years seems unnecessarily harsh, especially for those players who have proven themselves valuable members of the community (I don't know if any have, but the fact that I recognize several of those names when I don't follow Starcraft all that seriously suggests to me that at least a couple are valuable community members). When you compare the reaction to abuse here to the reaction to greater abuse in a bigger sport (e.g., baseball), the community here seems to revile cheating at a level much higher than the other sport's fans. Honestly it's puzzling to me, I was genuinely shocked at how immediately the community unanimously decided that everyone who abused the TSL ladder (even for just three wins) was absolute trash and the scum of the earth.
I don't mean to be confrontational here, I'm just having a difficult time believing that these decisions are reasonable. Maybe it's because I'm really not that involved in Starcraft, I just follow both the professional and foreign scenes casually. I won't complain about the punishments; I was just surprised at their severity. Granted I was also surprised that about a quarter of the tournament candidates cheated in some way, but that begs the question of "Why was cheating so tempting that 25% of the top players on the ladder would resort to it?" When you've got that many people deciding that cheating is the best option for them, I can't help but wonder if an outside force pressured some of the players into doing things they wouldn't do otherwise. As to what that outside force is, beats me. I'm just throwing out considerations.
But anyway, this post has gone on too long. I just wanted to chime in from the point of view of a neutral person who does disagree with the punishment decisions. I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that a significant number of people feel the same way I do, but just don't say anything because there's nothing to be gained from it. Those who are especially angered by abuse would be more likely to post about it, I think, than those of us who just find it a disappointment. Regardless, I'm glad to see that something was done, even if I disagree with the severity of the action taken. If the TSL, and Starcraft in general, are to be made "legitimate" in the eyes of society as a whole, then cheating does need to be strictly monitored and dealt with. Thanks for putting on the tournament, and I'm really looking forward to it.
In Professional sports there is already a season established. So a suspeneion for 2-3 games is not too long and at most is a 1/4 of a season. With the starcraft, the amount of time between each event is too long in the foreign scene for the ban to be any shorter. A 6 month ban would be almost if not actually meaningless as there might not be a tournament in that amount of time. Also about your view on some "outside force" making 25% of the qualifiers cheat, why was that the first thing that popped into your head? To me that would just mean that cheating has become so pervasive that people do it without even thinking about it. Hopefully the measures taking by TL will make it so future tournaments will not have so many well known players cheating in the top tiers.
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Braavos36362 Posts
On December 22 2009 04:33 Cobalt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2009 01:27 RaGe wrote:On December 22 2009 01:11 Tazan_0 wrote: Okay, normally I just lurk around here, never post much, but this thread is some of the most rage inciting garbage i've ever read. These players have put time into improving this website, and have contributed to the improvement of so many players here. I don't know about you, but watching scan stream has been one of the things that has most improved my play. If they played 3-4 games unfairly then fine, disqualify them from the TSL, but to ban their accounts from tl is to remove all contributions they provide to this website. I do not believe this is well thought out. In all the abuse threads, the only people I've seen complain about punishments were the people that were actually friends with/fan of the players that got kicked. Never (I might have missed a few posts though) did I see a neutral person condemning our anti-abuse actions. I think you should take some time to criticize yourself and see if you're really being objective here. edit: And like mentioned before, they won't be banned from TL. Scan (skryoo) has been removed as a featured streamer though. Another lurker here, and I have to wonder about the decision made here. The punishments outlined here are incredibly more severe than punishments for comparable (or worse) offenses in other sports. Take the steroid scandals in American professional baseball, for example--the punishment is generally suspension for about half a season, which is like two or three months if you take the Starcraft equivalent? Something like that. The equivalent would be if two baseball players tried to fix games to get one of the teams into the playoffs. If this happened, the league would almost certainly suspend the players for a full season, possibly more. In general if a sport's competitive honesty is tested like this, the leagues usually come down extremely strong on the players -- look at Pete Rose or the NBA referee who both influenced game outcomes.
And the way I see it, using performance enhancing drugs is a much worse offense than ladder abuse, primarily because of the different effects. If a person conspires with another to get a couple free wins, it doesn't give him an inherent advantage over other players. Obviously it's an awful thing to do, since cheating in this way to qualify prevents another person from qualifying legitimately. But imagine, if this person cheats to get into the top48, and then wins the TSL, he has still proven himself to be the most skilled player in the tournament (as long as you trust the tournament structure to find the best player out of all entrants). Ladder abuse does not provide an inherent advantage over opponents in-game, and so a person who wins the TSL even while abusing would still "deserve" it in the sense that they were the best player in the tournament. Meanwhile, consider steroids, which artificially improve a player's ability and provide an inherent advantage against other players. If a person taking steroids wins a sport tournament or breaks a record, then it was not his skill that did it--it was the artificial improvement from his drugs. Well, TL and most other sports leagues disagree with this rationale completely. Abuse is just as bad, possibly worse than hacking/performance enhancing drugs. Because an individual case of hacking is completely "cleanable" in the sense that you ban the hacker, and you're done. But abuse actually calls into question the integrity of your entire league, and may make spectators or others question the validity of results. That is infinitely worse than one or two hackers.
That's not to say I think cheating should go unpunished, however. Disqualification from the TSL and a ban from official events for six months seems reasonable to me. But an effective ban from the biggest foreign event for two or three years seems unnecessarily harsh, especially for those players who have proven themselves valuable members of the community (I don't know if any have, but the fact that I recognize several of those names when I don't follow Starcraft all that seriously suggests to me that at least a couple are valuable community members). When you compare the reaction to abuse here to the reaction to greater abuse in a bigger sport (e.g., baseball), the community here seems to revile cheating at a level much higher than the other sport's fans. Honestly it's puzzling to me, I was genuinely shocked at how immediately the community unanimously decided that everyone who abused the TSL ladder (even for just three wins) was absolute trash and the scum of the earth. In our community cheating is the cardinal sin. You really can't do anything worse. There is definitely a difference between the TSL situation and the major sports like baseball. Their infrastructure to counter cheating is in place, they have mandatory drug testing, etc. We do not have those luxuries or resources. Putting aside the obvious differences in scope (like comparing a Starcraft tournament to true professional physical sports), are you sure that cheating is reviled here more than elsewhere? The reaction to Bonds and Clemens (outside of their home fans) is pretty harsh. Same for the Patriots when they were caught taping practices. Everyone outside Boston wanted their Super Bowls taken back and said their success was only because of the cheating (even though the taping didn't happen during their undefeated season). It's a pretty big deal everywhere when a player cheats.
I don't mean to be confrontational here, I'm just having a difficult time believing that these decisions are reasonable. Maybe it's because I'm really not that involved in Starcraft, I just follow both the professional and foreign scenes casually. I won't complain about the punishments; I was just surprised at their severity. Granted I was also surprised that about a quarter of the tournament candidates cheated in some way, but that begs the question of "Why was cheating so tempting that 25% of the top players on the ladder would resort to it?" When you've got that many people deciding that cheating is the best option for them, I can't help but wonder if an outside force pressured some of the players into doing things they wouldn't do otherwise. As to what that outside force is, beats me. I'm just throwing out considerations. The severity of the punishments are completely in line with what most leagues do when they discover cheating. And the main reason these guys cheated was because they thought they could get away with it. That actually supports the harsher punishments. Do you think there will be as many cheaters next time? I doubt it. That means the punishments were effective. If you're just going to ban someone for the current TSL, there is literally zero incentive NOT to cheat, because if you're outside the Top 48 you'll be eliminated anyway.
But anyway, this post has gone on too long. I just wanted to chime in from the point of view of a neutral person who does disagree with the punishment decisions. I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that a significant number of people feel the same way I do, but just don't say anything because there's nothing to be gained from it. Those who are especially angered by abuse would be more likely to post about it, I think, than those of us who just find it a disappointment. Regardless, I'm glad to see that something was done, even if I disagree with the severity of the action taken. If the TSL, and Starcraft in general, are to be made "legitimate" in the eyes of society as a whole, then cheating does need to be strictly monitored and dealt with. Thanks for putting on the tournament, and I'm really looking forward to it. I don't think you fully considered the correct analogy for abuse (compare it to fixing games, not performance enhancing drugs). The reason why cheating is rampant is because of viewpoints like yours where people say "well its not a big deal, they are good players and deserve winning anyway." It does not matter how good someone is. Jaedong could be in our tournament, if he cheated, we would ban him. We have interests that go beyond simply finding the best player at all costs -- we want the competition (and our game) to be one with fair competition. Only this way can we attract future sponsors and become more legitimate.
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While I might prefer if the timed event ban applied only to events with prizes, this is certainly fair. I'm definitely glad that a TL forum ban wasn't included in the punishment, that would have been inappropriate for their crimes.
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Braavos36362 Posts
On December 22 2009 04:57 Scooge wrote: I was expecting some new mechanism to punish cheaters well into future games (SC2). No offense to TL, but the only event worthwhile to the people punished was TSL, and no one knows when the next TSL will take place -- if ever. I doubt Yosh cares if he's banned from TL Attack or TL arena. Liquidibition had money involved, but those events have stopped too.
In essence the cheaters were punished with removal from TSL2. That's great and severe, but we knew that a couple of weeks ago. I was expecting something harsher, but in practice, I don't think this will change much. The only real thing we can punish them with is DQ from TSL3 and other TL events. I strongly disagree with the idea that it won't change anything. I think it'll greatly influence behavior in the next TSL should we have it. Plus, even if it doesn't change behavior, its better to have such a punishment than not, correct?
Edit: I understand TL could host SC2 events. That future is very hard to predict though, and to base punishment around the possibility of TL being a force big enough in SC2 where being banned from its events could hurt is a large leap.
TL is primarily a community driven site. The reason it hosts tournaments and events for SC is because there are no big sponsors / corporations willing to do so for the foreigner community. I don't think that will be the case for SC2. TL hosting TSL is not a product of nobody else being willing. Our ability to obtain sponsors and host a successful tournament is simply because our staff is willing to work hard at it.
When SC2 comes, there will be a lot of competition for sites to host tournaments, get sponsors, and generally be the best community site. Maybe we will be successful and host many TSLs per year for SC2, maybe not. But the qualities that make TL and its staff successful in our "field" aren't going to change -- we're still going to have good judgment and we're still going work hard.
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